Author Topic: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24  (Read 4426 times)

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Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2012, 11:24:43 AM »
THE THINKER said:
If you were an old testament saint and you died in an accident you would go down to be bound in sheol. Christ had not paid for sins yet and so you could not go to heaven.

But you are a new testament saint and your sins are paid for. So if you die in an accident you don't go down to sheol. You are "caught up" to meet the Lord clothed in your body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5).

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:
 


1. So your saying the OT saints were taking when Christ died
Or 70AD?
2. And NT saints who died before christ?
3. And NT saints who died after Christ but before 70ad?
4.  And NT saints who died after 70ad?
It's just as important to KNOW what's NOT in the Bible
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thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2012, 01:32:41 PM »
THE THINKER said:
If you were an old testament saint and you died in an accident you would go down to be bound in sheol. Christ had not paid for sins yet and so you could not go to heaven.

But you are a new testament saint and your sins are paid for. So if you die in an accident you don't go down to sheol. You are "caught up" to meet the Lord clothed in your body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5).

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:
 


1. So your saying the OT saints were taking when Christ died
Or 70AD?
2. And NT saints who died before christ?
3. And NT saints who died after Christ but before 70ad?
4.  And NT saints who died after 70ad?

There were no new covenant saints before Christ's second coming. They were still under the old covenant until Christ finished His atoning work in the heavenly sanctuary. Once Christ finished His atoning work in ad70 the sins of His people were paid in full. They now go straight to God when they die.

Until their sins were paid in full they could not be resurrected from sheol. After the resurrection in ad70 sheol (hades) was cast into the lake of fire. God's people are now "caught up" to be with Jesus clothed in their body from heaven (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5).

thinker

inthenow

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2012, 06:35:46 PM »

thethinker:
There were no new covenant saints before Christ's second coming. They were still under the old covenant until Christ finished His atoning work in the heavenly sanctuary. Once Christ finished His atoning work in ad70 the sins of His people were paid in full. They now go straight to God when they die.

Those christians after the death of Christ were not still under the old covenant but are under grace saved through faith.
Eph_2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Until their sins were paid in full they could not be resurrected from sheol. After the resurrection in ad70 sheol (hades) was cast into the lake of fire. God's people are now "caught up" to be with Jesus clothed in their body from heaven (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5).

thinker

Really, in ad70 death and the grave was cast into the lake of fire, they don't exist now  ::noworries::

Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

thinker that will happen in a thousand years from now,


Offline WarriorUvChrist

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2012, 07:36:43 PM »
Quote

From thinker

First, Paul did NOT say that we would all be caught up at the same time. Each of us are caught up individually when we die. The old testament saints were resurrected when Jesus returned in ad70. After that God's people don't "die" and go down to sheol. They are "caught up" now to their body from heaven.

If you were an old testament saint and you died in an accident you would go down to be bound in sheol. Christ had not paid for sins yet and so you could not go to heaven.



You might as well give up,WE're not going to follow your Preteristic beliefs! Some of US still believe that Jesus will have a 2nd coming,not of the flesh but of the spirit & WE do NOT believe He came in 70 A.D. when their are Biblical,Christian scholars that don't even think John of Patmos wrote Revelations in that year! Go watch a documentary or research it yourself instead of following that Preterist author that you said you study or whatever book it was he wrote!

 So Paul did Not say that we would all be caught up at the same time.What does 1 Thessalonians 4:17 say,
"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER",NOT INDIVIDUALLY!!!

What do you call "Repentence of Sin" & Christ did not pay for our sins yet huh?
"It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,who was delivered up because of our
OFFENSES/SINS-Paul,Romans 4:24 & 25.That means He paid for our sins!!!

The one thing that you're right about is that if you were an old testement saint & died,you'd go down to sheol bound but until Jesus DIED/PAID FOR OUR SINS then He went to preach the Word & to save those saint or apostles & prophets.You do realize though the 3 days after His Resurrection that He went to release those that you said was there!
"(Now this,"He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also FIRST descended into the lower parts of the earth/sheol? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the Heavens,that He might fill all things/which means forgiving of or paying for our sins).And He Himself gave some to be apostles,some prophets,some evangelists,and some pastors,and teachers,for equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry,for the edifying of the body of Christ."-Ephesians 4:9-12!


Lehigh

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2012, 07:42:02 PM »

"THEN" we who are alive and remain will be caught up with our loved ones when we also die.

  The "body" that we sow is different from the "body" God gives us in heaven. 

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2012, 07:42:02 PM »



Offline WarriorUvChrist

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2012, 07:52:57 PM »
TheTHINKER, so if Christ has came back

1. Did the rapture where every eye sees Jesus happen yet?
2. Did Jesus come with all his saints yet? (Rev 19:11-21)
3. Did Jesus have a 1000 yr reign yet?
4. Where are we now?
5. What's next?



Thank You KNOWLEDGE BOMB

I need to put up some questions like this that I had a dream about but they were almost just like these questions! Man WE must be connected through the Spirit or something!
That's another thing that doesn't make sense about this Preterism belief?

Where is the New Jerusalem described in Revelations 21:2 & 10?

Because if that's the New Jerusalem over there with Palestinians shelling Israel,Jerusalem lately,all the Wars fought in or around Israel & people being anti-semite!
That doesn't look like the New Heaven to me! This Preterism ideaology is making God or Jesus look like a liar & they aren't liars in my Book!


Offline fenton

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2012, 09:14:15 PM »
Quote

From thinker

First, Paul did NOT say that we would all be caught up at the same time. Each of us are caught up individually when we die. The old testament saints were resurrected when Jesus returned in ad70. After that God's people don't "die" and go down to sheol. They are "caught up" now to their body from heaven.

If you were an old testament saint and you died in an accident you would go down to be bound in sheol. Christ had not paid for sins yet and so you could not go to heaven.



You might as well give up,WE're not going to follow your Preteristic beliefs! Some of US still believe that Jesus will have a 2nd coming,not of the flesh but of the spirit & WE do NOT believe He came in 70 A.D. when their are Biblical,Christian scholars that don't even think John of Patmos wrote Revelations in that year! Go watch a documentary or research it yourself instead of following that Preterist author that you said you study or whatever book it was he wrote!

 So Paul did Not say that we would all be caught up at the same time.What does 1 Thessalonians 4:17 say,
"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER",NOT INDIVIDUALLY!!!

What do you call "Repentence of Sin" & Christ did not pay for our sins yet huh?
"It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,who was delivered up because of our
OFFENSES/SINS-Paul,Romans 4:24 & 25.That means He paid for our sins!!!

The one thing that you're right about is that if you were an old testement saint & died,you'd go down to sheol bound but until Jesus DIED/PAID FOR OUR SINS then He went to preach the Word & to save those saint or apostles & prophets.You do realize though the 3 days after His Resurrection that He went to release those that you said was there!
"(Now this,"He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also FIRST descended into the lower parts of the earth/sheol? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the Heavens,that He might fill all things/which means forgiving of or paying for our sins).And He Himself gave some to be apostles,some prophets,some evangelists,and some pastors,and teachers,for equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry,for the edifying of the body of Christ."-Ephesians 4:9-12!



 ::smile:: ::nodding::
::frustrated:: Headaches

I am not living in hell and if this is heaven then God lied and God is not a liar!!!

Pro 1:23  Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

1Jn 2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2012, 02:38:47 AM »

inthenow wrote:
Quote
Those christians after the death of Christ were not still under the old covenant but are under grace saved through faith.
Eph_2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You're wrong. Paul's faith alone gospel was NOT YET fully implemented. He said, "For by grace you ARE BEING saved through faith."

Hebrews says that the old "is READY to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13).

He also said that the administration od death (the old covenant) "IS PASSING away" (2 Cor. 3:4-11).

Hebrews teaches that Jesus ascended into heaven and made the Hifh priestly intercession at the heavenly altar. The old covenant was still in effect until He completed that intercession. He completed that intercession in ad70. James taught that salvation was by faith plus works (chap. 2). Paul's faith only gospel was NOT fully implemmented until Christ completed the intercession at the heavenly altar.

Paul said that the night (the oc) is far spent and the day (nc) is "at hand" (Ro. 13:12). So the new covenant was only "AT HAND" in Paul's time.

thinker

thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2012, 02:44:13 AM »
Warrior said:
Quote
So Paul did Not say that we would all be caught up at the same time.What does 1 Thessalonians 4:17 say,
"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER",NOT INDIVIDUALLY!!!


Apparently you did not read the op to my "We are caught up individually" thread. The word "hama" as an adverb does NOT mean "together at the same time."

Hre is that op:

Quote
Literal translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

"For the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

afterwards we who are living, who are remaining over, shall be caught away to join them (NEB) through the clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be."


TO ALL,

There are many who erroneously who think that Paul taught that the the living saints in this passage will be caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised. This cannot be possible because he said that the living saints are caught away "afterwards."

So why do so many christians think that the living saints are caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised? There are two reasons:

1. Because most translations wrongly render the Greek hama in English as "together with" giving the impression that the living saints are caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised.

2. Because they wrongly think that the Greek hama means "at the same time."

It is true that hama may mean "at the same time" but only when used as a particle. When it is used as an adverb it denotes simple association by joining without any reference to simultaneousness (see Strong's# 260).

Paul used hama to translate the Hebrew yachad which means "to become united." Yachad has no reference to simultaneousness at all.

Psalm 14:3:

"They have all turned aside,
They have together [yachad] become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one."


Romans 3:12:

"They have all turned aside;
They have together [hama] become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one."


David was speaking about the fool of his day who had become corrupt because he said "there is no God." Paul applied it to the Jew and the Gentile in his time who had become unprofitable. The sinner of Paul's time did not become decadent simultaneously with the fool in David's day. Though they had become decadent "together" it was not at the same time. They became decadent "together" in the sense that they became united or joined to each other in their decadence.

This is what Paul meant in 1 Thessalonians 4. He meant that we each will be caught away individually to join the resurrected saints in heaven but each in our own succession of time. When I die I will be caught away to join the resurrected saints. The next thing I know I will be in my body from heaven which the resurrected saints now have (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5). My earthly body will have no part in my being caught away. When Raggthyme's time comes she will be caught away to join the resurrected saints and the next thing she will know is that she will be in her body from heaven. The same is true of each of us individually.

We will each be caught away individually in our own succession of time and not at the same time. Our earthly bodies will NOT have a part in it at all. There will be no mass disappearances of people's bodies. Each of us will be caught away to join the resurrected saints in our body from heaven. Our loved ones will take care of the body we leave behind.

thinker

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/we-are-caught-away-individually-in-successions/


thinker


thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2012, 11:01:03 AM »

"THEN" we who are alive and remain will be caught up with our loved ones when we also die.

  The "body" that we sow is different from the "body" God gives us in heaven. 

Amen and manna! Paul said that our resurrection body is from heaven and that it is "not made with hands." The expression "not made with hands" means that it is "not of this creation" (Heb. 9:11). It is NOT flesh and blood but is a spiritual body.

Furthermore, Paul said that "death is swallowed up" when we put on the body from heaven (2 Cor. 5:1-5).

thinker

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2012, 03:12:40 PM »
The thinker said:
There were no new covenant saints before Christ's second coming. They were still under the old covenant until Christ finished His atoning work in the heavenly sanctuary. Once Christ finished His atoning work in ad70 the sins of His people were paid in full. They now go straight to God when they die.


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

1. Why did it take Christ over 30 years to do this?
2. So your saying matt 24:30 has already happened?
It's just as important to KNOW what's NOT in the Bible
as it is to KNOW what IS

thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2012, 04:59:18 PM »
The thinker said:
There were no new covenant saints before Christ's second coming. They were still under the old covenant until Christ finished His atoning work in the heavenly sanctuary. Once Christ finished His atoning work in ad70 the sins of His people were paid in full. They now go straight to God when they die.


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

1. Why did it take Christ over 30 years to do this?
2. So your saying matt 24:30 has already happened?


At least I say that the heavenly intercession has been completed. The Futurists say that the heavenly intercession is still going on today over two thousand years later. So I can ask you the same thing: Why is it taking two thousand years and counting for Christ to complete the high priestly intercession at the heavenly altar?

God's people cannot enter the new covenant until that intercession has been completed.

thinker

Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2012, 06:26:28 PM »
Paul died in 67 CE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle

According to you Preterists the Lord "came " invisibly in 70 CE.

Sounds rather like the Jehovah's Witness claim Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 and is ruling from Watchtower HQ in Brooklyn.
Give to those who hold to untruth
Questions they cannot answer and
Answers they cannot question

Lehigh

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2012, 08:15:24 PM »
Sounds rather like the Jehovah's Witness claim Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 and is ruling from Watchtower HQ in Brooklyn.
Did St. Paul prophesy that too?  Then why do you talk about it? Is it supposed to sound cool or something?!

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2012, 08:36:16 PM »
The thinker said:
There were no new covenant saints before Christ's second coming. They were still under the old covenant until Christ finished His atoning work in the heavenly sanctuary. Once Christ finished His atoning work in ad70 the sins of His people were paid in full. They now go straight to God when they die.


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

1. Why did it take Christ over 30 years to do this?
2. So your saying matt 24:30 has already happened?


At least I say that the heavenly intercession has been completed. The Futurists say that the heavenly intercession is still going on today over two thousand years later. So I can ask you the same thing: Why is it taking two thousand years and counting for Christ to complete the high priestly intercession at the heavenly altar?

God's people cannot enter the new covenant until that intercession has been completed.

thinker

I'm just trying to find out what it is that those who believe he's come in 70ad IS that they go by..

1. I assume matt 24 with verse 30 being Christ 70ad coming? 

2. And by intercession, your saying Jesus doesn't do intercession to God the father?

3. One more question, so your saying that until he finnished intercession, they were under the law?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 08:52:43 PM by KNOWLEDGE BOMB »
It's just as important to KNOW what's NOT in the Bible
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