Author Topic: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24  (Read 5141 times)

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thethinker

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1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 18:46:06 »
Paul told the Thessalonians that their entire BODY soul and spirit would be PRESERVED blameless UNTIL the Lord's coming (1 Thess. 5:23). This CLEARLY means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE at the Lord's return.
 
About this verse 19th century Preterist J. Stuart Russell said,
 
Quote
If any shadow of a doubt still rested on the question whether St. Paul believed and taught the incidence of the Parousia in his own day, this passage will dispel it. No words can more clearly imply this belief than this prayer that the Thessalonian Christians might not die before the appearing of Christ.
 
Death is the dissolution of the union between the body, soul, and spirit, and the apostle's prayer is that spirit, soul, and body might 'all together' [oloklhron] be preserved in sanctity till the Lord's coming. This implies the continuance of their corporeal life until that event (THE PAROUSIA, J. Stuart Russell, Baker Book House, page 170)

 Then Paul said, "Faithful is He that calls you who also WILL DO IT."

thinker
 

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #1 on: Wed Feb 22, 2012 - 18:14:50 »
Paul told the Thessalonians that their entire BODY soul and spirit would be PRESERVED blameless UNTIL the Lord's coming (1 Thess. 5:23). This CLEARLY means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE at the Lord's return.
 
About this verse 19th century Preterist J. Stuart Russell said,
 
Quote
If any shadow of a doubt still rested on the question whether St. Paul believed and taught the incidence of the Parousia in his own day, this passage will dispel it. No words can more clearly imply this belief than this prayer that the Thessalonian Christians might not die before the appearing of Christ.
 

 Then Paul said, "Faithful is He that calls you who also WILL DO IT."

thinker
 


1 thess 5:23 IS DEPENDENT upon the believer keeping verses 14 -22, SO THAT they CAN enjoy verse 23.....

ALSO if you read verse 23, Paul PRAYs (to God) that their WHOLE spirit soul and body would BE Preserved blamelss until Christ comes.  Since Paul won't always be at their side, he hopes they stay the course (14-22)
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 22, 2012 - 18:25:18 by KNOWLEDGE BOMB »

thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #2 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 08:48:28 »
Paul told the Thessalonians that their entire BODY soul and spirit would be PRESERVED blameless UNTIL the Lord's coming (1 Thess. 5:23). This CLEARLY means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE at the Lord's return.
 
About this verse 19th century Preterist J. Stuart Russell said,
 
Quote
If any shadow of a doubt still rested on the question whether St. Paul believed and taught the incidence of the Parousia in his own day, this passage will dispel it. No words can more clearly imply this belief than this prayer that the Thessalonian Christians might not die before the appearing of Christ.
 

 Then Paul said, "Faithful is He that calls you who also WILL DO IT."

thinker
 


1 thess 5:23 IS DEPENDENT upon the believer keeping verses 14 -22, SO THAT they CAN enjoy verse 23.....

ALSO if you read verse 23, Paul PRAYs (to God) that their WHOLE spirit soul and body would BE Preserved blamelss until Christ comes.  Since Paul won't always be at their side, he hopes they stay the course (14-22)

Why are you changing the subject? My op was about Christ's return in Paul's time.

thinker

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #3 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 09:03:36 »
Paul told the Thessalonians that their entire BODY soul and spirit would be PRESERVED blameless UNTIL the Lord's coming (1 Thess. 5:23). This CLEARLY means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE at the Lord's return.
 
About this verse 19th century Preterist J. Stuart Russell said,
 
Quote
If any shadow of a doubt still rested on the question whether St. Paul believed and taught the incidence of the Parousia in his own day, this passage will dispel it. No words can more clearly imply this belief than this prayer that the Thessalonian Christians might not die before the appearing of Christ.
 

 Then Paul said, "Faithful is He that calls you who also WILL DO IT."

thinker
 


1 thess 5:23 IS DEPENDENT upon the believer keeping verses 14 -22, SO THAT they CAN enjoy verse 23.....

ALSO if you read verse 23, Paul PRAYs (to God) that their WHOLE spirit soul and body would BE Preserved blamelss until Christ comes.  Since Paul won't always be at their side, he hopes they stay the course (14-22)

Why are you changing the subject? My op was about Christ's return in Paul's time.

thinker


I didn't change anything, I just cleared up the error you use (verse23) to claim Christ has already came.  Nothing I said above is in error about the verses, you take one verse to make a point and I took all the verses to show you were wrong........ Claiming Christ has come is a very serious thing you do to other believers who have the hope of his return.....

Offline Debbie_55

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #4 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 14:14:19 »
The whole theme of 1 Thessalonians chapter 5 is Paul teaching those about the return of Christ and was giving instruction of how to live Holy until His coming and in verse 23 Paul is praying that they stay Holy even unto physical death waiting until the day of Christ return that they would be raised incorruptible to be with the Lord forever.

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57  But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #4 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 14:14:19 »



thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #5 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 15:14:56 »
knowledgebomb wrote:
Quote
I didn't change anything, I just cleared up the error you use (verse23) to claim Christ has already came.  Nothing I said above is in error about the verses, you take one verse to make a point and I took all the verses to show you were wrong........ Claiming Christ has come is a very serious thing you do to other believers who have the hope of his return.....

I have NOT taken just one verse. On other threads I have invoked 2 Thessalonians 1:3-8 many times. Paul promised the Thessalonians that they would get relief from their persecutions "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven." This means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE when He came. They were not to get relief from their persecutions after they died. They were to get it "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven."

I have also invoked Christ's word to the church at Thyatira. He said to them, "Hold fast til I come" (Rev. 2:25). Note that Jesus did NOT say, "Hold fast til death." He said, "Hold fast til I come" which makes no sense if Jesus was not to come in THEIR time.

I have also invoked Hebrews 10:37 which says, "In a very, very little while He who is coming will come and will not delay."

Paul said, "WE who are living and remaining in His coming...." The "WE" is Paul and the first generation of Christians.

Again, Paul prayed that the Thessalonians would be PRESERVED in body, soul and spirit until the Lord's coming. Then he said, "Faithful is He that calls you who also will do it."

They would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE at the Lord's return because their body soul and spirit would be altogether intact at His coming. This is unrefutable!

Therefore, He returned in THAT generation.

thinker

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #6 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 15:46:31 »
Paul told the Thessalonians that their entire BODY soul and spirit would be PRESERVED blameless UNTIL the Lord's coming (1 Thess. 5:23). This CLEARLY means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE at the Lord's return.
 
About this verse 19th century Preterist J. Stuart Russell said,
 
Quote
If any shadow of a doubt still rested on the question whether St. Paul believed and taught the incidence of the Parousia in his own day, this passage will dispel it. No words can more clearly imply this belief than this prayer that the Thessalonian Christians might not die before the appearing of Christ.
 

 Then Paul said, "Faithful is He that calls you who also WILL DO IT."

thinker
 


1 thess 5:23 IS DEPENDENT upon the believer keeping verses 14 -22, SO THAT they CAN enjoy verse 23.....

ALSO if you read verse 23, Paul PRAYs (to God) that their WHOLE spirit soul and body would BE Preserved blamelss until Christ comes.  Since Paul won't always be at their side, he hopes they stay the course (14-22)

DEBBIE also said:
The whole theme of 1 Thessalonians chapter 5 is Paul teaching those about the return of Christ and was giving instruction of how to live Holy until His coming and in verse 23 Paul is praying that they stay Holy even unto physical death waiting until the day of Christ return that they would be raised incorruptible to be with the Lord forever.
END DEBBIE END

IT's pauls hope they STAY THE COURSE - overcoming until death or rapture. Rev 2:10 tells us to be faithful to death and Christ will give you a crown, which means if you don't overcome, you don't recieve that crown of LIFE!  All of the letters to ALL BELIEVERS (to him who has an ear) talk of overcoming, and that's till DEATH.

The prodicals son is such a case...
1. He was saved
2. He left his father and had no salvation
3. He returned and what was said?

You were dead and you live again...

If he lived AGAIN, it means he lived before (he left) but while he was gone he was DEAD and Paul is praying that they won't fall away... The prodicals son COULD of stayed DEAD amd lost his salvation.

Paul prays that they will (stay abiding in Christ) till death and overcome.....


Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #7 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 15:53:04 »
TheTHINKER, so if Christ has came back

1. Did the rapture where every eye sees Jesus happen yet?
2. Did Jesus come with all his saints yet? (Rev 19:11-21)
3. Did Jesus have a 1000 yr reign yet?
4. Where are we now?
5. What's next?

thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #8 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 15:53:23 »
Paul told the Thessalonians that their entire BODY soul and spirit would be PRESERVED blameless UNTIL the Lord's coming (1 Thess. 5:23). This CLEARLY means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE at the Lord's return.
 
About this verse 19th century Preterist J. Stuart Russell said,
 
Quote
If any shadow of a doubt still rested on the question whether St. Paul believed and taught the incidence of the Parousia in his own day, this passage will dispel it. No words can more clearly imply this belief than this prayer that the Thessalonian Christians might not die before the appearing of Christ.
 

 Then Paul said, "Faithful is He that calls you who also WILL DO IT."

thinker
 


1 thess 5:23 IS DEPENDENT upon the believer keeping verses 14 -22, SO THAT they CAN enjoy verse 23.....

ALSO if you read verse 23, Paul PRAYs (to God) that their WHOLE spirit soul and body would BE Preserved blamelss until Christ comes.  Since Paul won't always be at their side, he hopes they stay the course (14-22)

DEBBIE also said:
The whole theme of 1 Thessalonians chapter 5 is Paul teaching those about the return of Christ and was giving instruction of how to live Holy until His coming and in verse 23 Paul is praying that they stay Holy even unto physical death waiting until the day of Christ return that they would be raised incorruptible to be with the Lord forever.
END DEBBIE END

IT's pauls hope they STAY THE COURSE - overcoming until death or rapture. Rev 2:10 tells us to be faithful to death and Christ will give you a crown, which means if you don't overcome, you don't recieve that crown of LIFE!  All of the letters to ALL BELIEVERS (to him who has an ear) talk of overcoming, and that's till DEATH.

The prodicals son is such a case...
1. He was saved
2. He left his father and had no salvation
3. He returned and what was said?

You were dead and you live again...

If he lived AGAIN, it means he lived before (he left) but while he was gone he was DEAD and Paul is praying that they won't fall away... The prodicals son COULD of stayed DEAD amd lost his salvation.

Paul prays that they will (stay abiding in Christ) till death and overcome.....



First, answer my reply# 5 please.

Second, Debbie's argument that Paul prayed but would not always be with them is fallacious on two counts

1. Paul said, "Faithful is he who calls you who also will do it."

2. Paul said, "WE who are living and remaining in the Lord's coming...." The "WE" is Paul and the Thessalonians. Therefore, Paul would be with them up until the Lord's coming.

thinker

thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #9 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 15:55:51 »
TheTHINKER, so if Christ has came back

1. Did the rapture where every eye sees I'm happen yet?
2. Did Jesus come with all his saints yet? (Rev 19:11-21)
3. Did Jesus have a 1000 yr reign yet?
4. Where are we now?
5. What's next?


See my thread "We are caught away individually in successions"

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/we-are-caught-away-individually-in-successions/

thinker

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #10 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 16:43:21 »
I have also invoked Christ's word to the church at Thyatira. He said to them, "Hold fast til I come" (Rev. 2:25). Note that Jesus did NOT say, "Hold fast til death." He said, "Hold fast til I come" which makes no sense if Jesus was not to come in THEIR time.
END END END

KNOWLEDGEBOMB replies:

so if that's the case with your reasoning then the letter to the church of Philadelphia has them dying in order to overcome and recieve life.... So one church he says live and one he says to death....

See how both these things only work the way both debbie and I said... 



 

thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #11 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 17:48:55 »
knowledgebomb said:
Quote
so if that's the case with your reasoning then the letter to the church of Philadelphia has them dying in order to overcome and recieve life.... So one church he says live and one he says to death....

See how both these things only work the way both debbie and I said...

Jesus told Thyatira and Philadelphia the same basic thing. He told Thyatira to "hold fast til I come" and He told Philadelphia "I come quickly."

Again Jesus' command to "hold fast til I come" makes no sense if He was not to come in their time. He would have said, "hold fast til death" which He did NOT say.

Back to 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24. Debbie's argument that Paul prayed for them but would not always be with them is fallacious for two reasons.

1. Paul said, "Faithful is He that calls you who also will do it."'

2. Paul also said, "WE who are living and remaining in His coming...." The "WE" is Paul and the first generations christians.

So Paul expected to be with them UP UNTIL the Lord's coming.

Paul PROMISED that their body, soul and spirit would be preserved altogether intact at the Lord's coming. This means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE at His coming. It's clear!

thinker


Offline Debbie_55

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #12 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 10:45:43 »
Question to those who think Jesus has already come back.

First I have never seen any scripture stating in fact that Jesus has already come back for his bride nor that there are two second comings, but only instruction in His word to be prepared for when he does return in the air to raise up His who are in him to the resurrection of life and to others who rejected him a resurrection to death, or eternal separation from him. I read in scripture where Jesus comes back and sets his feet on the Mount of Olives to make and end of all abominations and then we will be with the Lord forever when he ushers down the new earth and new Jerusalem after this one is burned up and made new again.

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #13 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 11:40:19 »
Question to those who think Jesus has already come back.

First I have never seen any scripture stating in fact that Jesus has already come back for his bride nor that there are two second comings, but only instruction in His word to be prepared for when he does return in the air to raise up His who are in him to the resurrection of life and to others who rejected him a resurrection to death, or eternal separation from him. I read in scripture where Jesus comes back and sets his feet on the Mount of Olives to make and end of all abominations and then we will be with the Lord forever when he ushers down the new earth and new Jerusalem after this one is burned up and made new again.

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Debbie,

First, Paul did NOT say that we would all be caught up at the same time. Each of us are caught up individually when we die. The old testament saints were resurrected when Jesus returned in ad70. After that God's people don't "die" and go down to sheol. They are "caught up" now to their body from heaven.

If you were an old testament saint and you died in an accident you would go down to be bound in sheol. Christ had not paid for sins yet and so you could not go to heaven.

But you are a new testament saint and your sins are paid for. So if you die in an accident you don't go down to sheol. You are "caught up" to meet the Lord clothed in your body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5).

Paul told the Thessalonians that their body, soul and spirit would be PRESERVED until the Lord's coming. This means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE when He returned. But each would be "caught up" in his own time.

The scripture nowhere says that Jesus would return to the Mt. of Olives. See my threads at the links below

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/who-was-to-stand-on-the-mt-of-olives-jehovah-or-jesus/

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/trinitarian-translations-which-show-that-jesus-is-not-jehovah-in-zech-1210/

Start from the beginning of each thread.

thinker

Lehigh

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #14 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 21:58:07 »
Paul told the Thessalonians that their entire BODY soul and spirit would be PRESERVED blameless UNTIL the Lord's coming (1 Thess. 5:23). This CLEARLY means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE at the Lord's return.
 
About this verse 19th century Preterist J. Stuart Russell said,
 
Quote
If any shadow of a doubt still rested on the question whether St. Paul believed and taught the incidence of the Parousia in his own day, this passage will dispel it. No words can more clearly imply this belief than this prayer that the Thessalonian Christians might not die before the appearing of Christ.
 

 Then Paul said, "Faithful is He that calls you who also WILL DO IT."

thinker
 


1 thess 5:23 IS DEPENDENT upon the believer keeping verses 14 -22, SO THAT they CAN enjoy verse 23.....

ALSO if you read verse 23, Paul PRAYs (to God) that their WHOLE spirit soul and body would BE Preserved blamelss until Christ comes.  Since Paul won't always be at their side, he hopes they stay the course (14-22)

Why are you changing the subject? My op was about Christ's return in Paul's time.

thinker


I didn't change anything, I just cleared up the error you use (verse23) to claim Christ has already came.  Nothing I said above is in error about the verses, you take one verse to make a point and I took all the verses to show you were wrong........ Claiming Christ has come is a very serious thing you do to other believers who have the hope of his return.....

Is Christ in you?  Then He came. That is fulfilled hope.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #15 on: Thu Mar 01, 2012 - 12:24:43 »
THE THINKER said:
If you were an old testament saint and you died in an accident you would go down to be bound in sheol. Christ had not paid for sins yet and so you could not go to heaven.

But you are a new testament saint and your sins are paid for. So if you die in an accident you don't go down to sheol. You are "caught up" to meet the Lord clothed in your body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5).

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:
 


1. So your saying the OT saints were taking when Christ died
Or 70AD?
2. And NT saints who died before christ?
3. And NT saints who died after Christ but before 70ad?
4.  And NT saints who died after 70ad?

thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #16 on: Thu Mar 01, 2012 - 14:32:41 »
THE THINKER said:
If you were an old testament saint and you died in an accident you would go down to be bound in sheol. Christ had not paid for sins yet and so you could not go to heaven.

But you are a new testament saint and your sins are paid for. So if you die in an accident you don't go down to sheol. You are "caught up" to meet the Lord clothed in your body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5).

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:
 


1. So your saying the OT saints were taking when Christ died
Or 70AD?
2. And NT saints who died before christ?
3. And NT saints who died after Christ but before 70ad?
4.  And NT saints who died after 70ad?

There were no new covenant saints before Christ's second coming. They were still under the old covenant until Christ finished His atoning work in the heavenly sanctuary. Once Christ finished His atoning work in ad70 the sins of His people were paid in full. They now go straight to God when they die.

Until their sins were paid in full they could not be resurrected from sheol. After the resurrection in ad70 sheol (hades) was cast into the lake of fire. God's people are now "caught up" to be with Jesus clothed in their body from heaven (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5).

thinker

inthenow

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #17 on: Thu Mar 01, 2012 - 19:35:46 »

thethinker:
There were no new covenant saints before Christ's second coming. They were still under the old covenant until Christ finished His atoning work in the heavenly sanctuary. Once Christ finished His atoning work in ad70 the sins of His people were paid in full. They now go straight to God when they die.

Those christians after the death of Christ were not still under the old covenant but are under grace saved through faith.
Eph_2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Until their sins were paid in full they could not be resurrected from sheol. After the resurrection in ad70 sheol (hades) was cast into the lake of fire. God's people are now "caught up" to be with Jesus clothed in their body from heaven (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5).

thinker

Really, in ad70 death and the grave was cast into the lake of fire, they don't exist now  ::noworries::

Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

thinker that will happen in a thousand years from now,


Offline WarriorUvChrist

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #18 on: Thu Mar 01, 2012 - 20:36:43 »
Quote

From thinker

First, Paul did NOT say that we would all be caught up at the same time. Each of us are caught up individually when we die. The old testament saints were resurrected when Jesus returned in ad70. After that God's people don't "die" and go down to sheol. They are "caught up" now to their body from heaven.

If you were an old testament saint and you died in an accident you would go down to be bound in sheol. Christ had not paid for sins yet and so you could not go to heaven.



You might as well give up,WE're not going to follow your Preteristic beliefs! Some of US still believe that Jesus will have a 2nd coming,not of the flesh but of the spirit & WE do NOT believe He came in 70 A.D. when their are Biblical,Christian scholars that don't even think John of Patmos wrote Revelations in that year! Go watch a documentary or research it yourself instead of following that Preterist author that you said you study or whatever book it was he wrote!

 So Paul did Not say that we would all be caught up at the same time.What does 1 Thessalonians 4:17 say,
"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER",NOT INDIVIDUALLY!!!

What do you call "Repentence of Sin" & Christ did not pay for our sins yet huh?
"It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,who was delivered up because of our
OFFENSES/SINS-Paul,Romans 4:24 & 25.That means He paid for our sins!!!

The one thing that you're right about is that if you were an old testement saint & died,you'd go down to sheol bound but until Jesus DIED/PAID FOR OUR SINS then He went to preach the Word & to save those saint or apostles & prophets.You do realize though the 3 days after His Resurrection that He went to release those that you said was there!
"(Now this,"He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also FIRST descended into the lower parts of the earth/sheol? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the Heavens,that He might fill all things/which means forgiving of or paying for our sins).And He Himself gave some to be apostles,some prophets,some evangelists,and some pastors,and teachers,for equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry,for the edifying of the body of Christ."-Ephesians 4:9-12!


Lehigh

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #19 on: Thu Mar 01, 2012 - 20:42:02 »

"THEN" we who are alive and remain will be caught up with our loved ones when we also die.

  The "body" that we sow is different from the "body" God gives us in heaven. 

Offline WarriorUvChrist

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #20 on: Thu Mar 01, 2012 - 20:52:57 »
TheTHINKER, so if Christ has came back

1. Did the rapture where every eye sees Jesus happen yet?
2. Did Jesus come with all his saints yet? (Rev 19:11-21)
3. Did Jesus have a 1000 yr reign yet?
4. Where are we now?
5. What's next?



Thank You KNOWLEDGE BOMB

I need to put up some questions like this that I had a dream about but they were almost just like these questions! Man WE must be connected through the Spirit or something!
That's another thing that doesn't make sense about this Preterism belief?

Where is the New Jerusalem described in Revelations 21:2 & 10?

Because if that's the New Jerusalem over there with Palestinians shelling Israel,Jerusalem lately,all the Wars fought in or around Israel & people being anti-semite!
That doesn't look like the New Heaven to me! This Preterism ideaology is making God or Jesus look like a liar & they aren't liars in my Book!


Offline fenton

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #21 on: Thu Mar 01, 2012 - 22:14:15 »
Quote

From thinker

First, Paul did NOT say that we would all be caught up at the same time. Each of us are caught up individually when we die. The old testament saints were resurrected when Jesus returned in ad70. After that God's people don't "die" and go down to sheol. They are "caught up" now to their body from heaven.

If you were an old testament saint and you died in an accident you would go down to be bound in sheol. Christ had not paid for sins yet and so you could not go to heaven.



You might as well give up,WE're not going to follow your Preteristic beliefs! Some of US still believe that Jesus will have a 2nd coming,not of the flesh but of the spirit & WE do NOT believe He came in 70 A.D. when their are Biblical,Christian scholars that don't even think John of Patmos wrote Revelations in that year! Go watch a documentary or research it yourself instead of following that Preterist author that you said you study or whatever book it was he wrote!

 So Paul did Not say that we would all be caught up at the same time.What does 1 Thessalonians 4:17 say,
"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER",NOT INDIVIDUALLY!!!

What do you call "Repentence of Sin" & Christ did not pay for our sins yet huh?
"It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,who was delivered up because of our
OFFENSES/SINS-Paul,Romans 4:24 & 25.That means He paid for our sins!!!

The one thing that you're right about is that if you were an old testement saint & died,you'd go down to sheol bound but until Jesus DIED/PAID FOR OUR SINS then He went to preach the Word & to save those saint or apostles & prophets.You do realize though the 3 days after His Resurrection that He went to release those that you said was there!
"(Now this,"He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also FIRST descended into the lower parts of the earth/sheol? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the Heavens,that He might fill all things/which means forgiving of or paying for our sins).And He Himself gave some to be apostles,some prophets,some evangelists,and some pastors,and teachers,for equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry,for the edifying of the body of Christ."-Ephesians 4:9-12!



 ::smile:: ::nodding::

thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #22 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 03:38:47 »

inthenow wrote:
Quote
Those christians after the death of Christ were not still under the old covenant but are under grace saved through faith.
Eph_2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You're wrong. Paul's faith alone gospel was NOT YET fully implemented. He said, "For by grace you ARE BEING saved through faith."

Hebrews says that the old "is READY to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13).

He also said that the administration od death (the old covenant) "IS PASSING away" (2 Cor. 3:4-11).

Hebrews teaches that Jesus ascended into heaven and made the Hifh priestly intercession at the heavenly altar. The old covenant was still in effect until He completed that intercession. He completed that intercession in ad70. James taught that salvation was by faith plus works (chap. 2). Paul's faith only gospel was NOT fully implemmented until Christ completed the intercession at the heavenly altar.

Paul said that the night (the oc) is far spent and the day (nc) is "at hand" (Ro. 13:12). So the new covenant was only "AT HAND" in Paul's time.

thinker

thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #23 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 03:44:13 »
Warrior said:
Quote
So Paul did Not say that we would all be caught up at the same time.What does 1 Thessalonians 4:17 say,
"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER",NOT INDIVIDUALLY!!!


Apparently you did not read the op to my "We are caught up individually" thread. The word "hama" as an adverb does NOT mean "together at the same time."

Hre is that op:

Quote
Literal translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

"For the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

afterwards we who are living, who are remaining over, shall be caught away to join them (NEB) through the clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be."


TO ALL,

There are many who erroneously who think that Paul taught that the the living saints in this passage will be caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised. This cannot be possible because he said that the living saints are caught away "afterwards."

So why do so many christians think that the living saints are caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised? There are two reasons:

1. Because most translations wrongly render the Greek hama in English as "together with" giving the impression that the living saints are caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised.

2. Because they wrongly think that the Greek hama means "at the same time."

It is true that hama may mean "at the same time" but only when used as a particle. When it is used as an adverb it denotes simple association by joining without any reference to simultaneousness (see Strong's# 260).

Paul used hama to translate the Hebrew yachad which means "to become united." Yachad has no reference to simultaneousness at all.

Psalm 14:3:

"They have all turned aside,
They have together [yachad] become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one."


Romans 3:12:

"They have all turned aside;
They have together [hama] become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one."


David was speaking about the fool of his day who had become corrupt because he said "there is no God." Paul applied it to the Jew and the Gentile in his time who had become unprofitable. The sinner of Paul's time did not become decadent simultaneously with the fool in David's day. Though they had become decadent "together" it was not at the same time. They became decadent "together" in the sense that they became united or joined to each other in their decadence.

This is what Paul meant in 1 Thessalonians 4. He meant that we each will be caught away individually to join the resurrected saints in heaven but each in our own succession of time. When I die I will be caught away to join the resurrected saints. The next thing I know I will be in my body from heaven which the resurrected saints now have (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5). My earthly body will have no part in my being caught away. When Raggthyme's time comes she will be caught away to join the resurrected saints and the next thing she will know is that she will be in her body from heaven. The same is true of each of us individually.

We will each be caught away individually in our own succession of time and not at the same time. Our earthly bodies will NOT have a part in it at all. There will be no mass disappearances of people's bodies. Each of us will be caught away to join the resurrected saints in our body from heaven. Our loved ones will take care of the body we leave behind.

thinker

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/we-are-caught-away-individually-in-successions/


thinker


thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #24 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 12:01:03 »

"THEN" we who are alive and remain will be caught up with our loved ones when we also die.

  The "body" that we sow is different from the "body" God gives us in heaven. 

Amen and manna! Paul said that our resurrection body is from heaven and that it is "not made with hands." The expression "not made with hands" means that it is "not of this creation" (Heb. 9:11). It is NOT flesh and blood but is a spiritual body.

Furthermore, Paul said that "death is swallowed up" when we put on the body from heaven (2 Cor. 5:1-5).

thinker

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #25 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 16:12:40 »
The thinker said:
There were no new covenant saints before Christ's second coming. They were still under the old covenant until Christ finished His atoning work in the heavenly sanctuary. Once Christ finished His atoning work in ad70 the sins of His people were paid in full. They now go straight to God when they die.


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

1. Why did it take Christ over 30 years to do this?
2. So your saying matt 24:30 has already happened?

thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #26 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 17:59:18 »
The thinker said:
There were no new covenant saints before Christ's second coming. They were still under the old covenant until Christ finished His atoning work in the heavenly sanctuary. Once Christ finished His atoning work in ad70 the sins of His people were paid in full. They now go straight to God when they die.


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

1. Why did it take Christ over 30 years to do this?
2. So your saying matt 24:30 has already happened?


At least I say that the heavenly intercession has been completed. The Futurists say that the heavenly intercession is still going on today over two thousand years later. So I can ask you the same thing: Why is it taking two thousand years and counting for Christ to complete the high priestly intercession at the heavenly altar?

God's people cannot enter the new covenant until that intercession has been completed.

thinker

Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #27 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 19:26:28 »
Paul died in 67 CE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle

According to you Preterists the Lord "came " invisibly in 70 CE.

Sounds rather like the Jehovah's Witness claim Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 and is ruling from Watchtower HQ in Brooklyn.

Lehigh

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #28 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 21:15:24 »
Sounds rather like the Jehovah's Witness claim Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 and is ruling from Watchtower HQ in Brooklyn.
Did St. Paul prophesy that too?  Then why do you talk about it? Is it supposed to sound cool or something?!

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #29 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 21:36:16 »
The thinker said:
There were no new covenant saints before Christ's second coming. They were still under the old covenant until Christ finished His atoning work in the heavenly sanctuary. Once Christ finished His atoning work in ad70 the sins of His people were paid in full. They now go straight to God when they die.


KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

1. Why did it take Christ over 30 years to do this?
2. So your saying matt 24:30 has already happened?


At least I say that the heavenly intercession has been completed. The Futurists say that the heavenly intercession is still going on today over two thousand years later. So I can ask you the same thing: Why is it taking two thousand years and counting for Christ to complete the high priestly intercession at the heavenly altar?

God's people cannot enter the new covenant until that intercession has been completed.

thinker

I'm just trying to find out what it is that those who believe he's come in 70ad IS that they go by..

1. I assume matt 24 with verse 30 being Christ 70ad coming? 

2. And by intercession, your saying Jesus doesn't do intercession to God the father?

3. One more question, so your saying that until he finnished intercession, they were under the law?
« Last Edit: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 21:52:43 by KNOWLEDGE BOMB »

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #30 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 22:14:39 »
"For the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

afterwards we who are living, who are remaining over, shall be caught away to join them (NEB) through the clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be."
End End



My KJV doesn't have the word "afterwards" I guess thus was added later....

See that word makes all the difference in our two bibles....

My bible teaches at one time and yours teaches something else..


What version is your bible that has this word?

thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #31 on: Sat Mar 03, 2012 - 08:44:00 »
Paul died in 67 CE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle

According to you Preterists the Lord "came " invisibly in 70 CE.

Sounds rather like the Jehovah's Witness claim Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 and is ruling from Watchtower HQ in Brooklyn.


Sorry to have to contradict you (not really sorry) but there is no historical or scriptural evidence that Paul died in ad67. Check out websites which deal with the date of Paul's death and they say that there is no historical or scriptural evidence. They say that it is according to TRADITION that Paul died in ad67. We are NOT bound by tradition.

Furthermore, Christ's second coming was an event that occurred in linear time. Jesus said to Caiaphas the high priest,

"From this time onward you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power AND coming in the clouds."

So Jesus' second coming ran together with His session at the right hand of power in linear time. This means that all the events from His ascension up to the final consummation fell within the scope of His second coming. Thus ad67 was within the scope of Christ's second coming. Therefore, it doesn't matter if Paul had died in ad67.

Why are you ignoring Paul's promise to the Thessalonians in 5:23-24? He PROMISED them that God would be faithful and PRESERVE them in "BODY, soul and spirit" until the Lord's coming. It CLEARLY says that their BODIES would be PRESERVED along with their souls and spirits UNTIL the Lord's coming. This means that Christ would surely come in THEIR lifetime.

So if Christ had not come, then they are still living today. Are they in hiding somewhere?

thinker

inthenow

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #32 on: Sat Mar 03, 2012 - 18:12:09 »
1Th 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

preserved is "tereo" in the greek, it means to "guard, keep"
but it's not just be preserved, it's "be preserved blameless"

kept blameless, and it's not just for those Paul was talking to through his letter, it's also for christians today who read that same letter.

Offline fenton

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #33 on: Sat Mar 03, 2012 - 18:43:44 »
i think that God new how people were going to distort His Word in today's time. He wrote it knowing how we SHOULD understand it TODAY!!!!!

My God is Not Dumb!!!

He did not want only the theologians or the ones that went to seminary to be the only ones to be able to understand the Word!!!!!

 ::beatingdeadhorse::

daq

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #34 on: Sat Mar 03, 2012 - 19:24:20 »
"For the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

afterwards we who are living, who are remaining over, shall be caught away to join them (NEB) through the clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be."
End End



My KJV doesn't have the word "afterwards" I guess thus was added later....

See that word makes all the difference in our two bibles....

My bible teaches at one time and yours teaches something else..


What version is your bible that has this word?

See there thinker? It is better just to adhere to the original meaning of the word whenever possible because those who love and worship King James and his "Ye Olde English" words are not going to believe the Truth when they see it anyways, even if you post it for a full chilia ete!  ::crackup::

AGAIN ~

EPI - EITA  =  THERE(UPON)AFTER

As a particle of SUCCESSION in TIME or logical ENUMERATION
LIKE STONES IN THE LAYERED BUILDING PROCESS OF A TEMPLE

Original Strong's Ref. #1899
Romanized  epeita
Pronounced ep'-i-tah
from GSN1909 and GSN1534; thereafter:
KJV--after that(-ward), then.

Original Strong's Ref. #1909
Romanized  epi
Pronounced ep-ee'
a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution [with the genitive case], i.e. over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the det.) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.:

Original Strong's Ref. #1534
Romanized  eita
Pronounced i'-tah
of uncertain affinity; a particle of succession (in time or logical enumeration), then, moreover:
KJV--after that(-ward), furthermore, then. See also GSN1899.

1 Corinthians 15:23
23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; THEREAFTER they that are Christ's at his parousia.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17. THEREAFTER we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Regarding 1 Thessalonians 5:23 Stephen is the example of what it means. The body is one "entity" because "the flesh profiteth nothing" and the deeds of it need to be "mortified-killed-crucified" with Christ. This is because it is full of EVIL, and thus, ENTITY. The soul of the man is also entity because the soul IS the man as you know and understand. However, the word for spirit also means breeze, wind, or BREATH, which means it is TESTIMONY in this instance. Stephen gives his full testimony in Acts 7 and this is the "spirit" of which Paul speaks in 1 Thessalonians 5:23. Stephen offers up his FULL TESTIMONY throughout the chapter and then cries out at the End:

Acts 7:55-59 KJV
55. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56. And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58. And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
59. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.


Then he received a white stone, and a new name written: Stephanas.

1 Corinthians 1:14-15 KJV
14. I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15. Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

1 Corinthians 16:15-16 KJV
15. I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)
16. That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and laboureth.


The King James worshippers will lie to you and sware that Stephen was buried because King James and his court said so: therefore King James is their god.  ::crackup::

 

     
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