Author Topic: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24  (Read 4420 times)

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thethinker

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1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« on: February 21, 2012, 05:46:06 PM »
Paul told the Thessalonians that their entire BODY soul and spirit would be PRESERVED blameless UNTIL the Lord's coming (1 Thess. 5:23). This CLEARLY means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE at the Lord's return.
 
About this verse 19th century Preterist J. Stuart Russell said,
 
Quote
If any shadow of a doubt still rested on the question whether St. Paul believed and taught the incidence of the Parousia in his own day, this passage will dispel it. No words can more clearly imply this belief than this prayer that the Thessalonian Christians might not die before the appearing of Christ.
 
Death is the dissolution of the union between the body, soul, and spirit, and the apostle's prayer is that spirit, soul, and body might 'all together' [oloklhron] be preserved in sanctity till the Lord's coming. This implies the continuance of their corporeal life until that event (THE PAROUSIA, J. Stuart Russell, Baker Book House, page 170)

 Then Paul said, "Faithful is He that calls you who also WILL DO IT."

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Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2012, 05:14:50 PM »
Paul told the Thessalonians that their entire BODY soul and spirit would be PRESERVED blameless UNTIL the Lord's coming (1 Thess. 5:23). This CLEARLY means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE at the Lord's return.
 
About this verse 19th century Preterist J. Stuart Russell said,
 
Quote
If any shadow of a doubt still rested on the question whether St. Paul believed and taught the incidence of the Parousia in his own day, this passage will dispel it. No words can more clearly imply this belief than this prayer that the Thessalonian Christians might not die before the appearing of Christ.
 

 Then Paul said, "Faithful is He that calls you who also WILL DO IT."

thinker
 


1 thess 5:23 IS DEPENDENT upon the believer keeping verses 14 -22, SO THAT they CAN enjoy verse 23.....

ALSO if you read verse 23, Paul PRAYs (to God) that their WHOLE spirit soul and body would BE Preserved blamelss until Christ comes.  Since Paul won't always be at their side, he hopes they stay the course (14-22)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 05:25:18 PM by KNOWLEDGE BOMB »
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thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2012, 07:48:28 AM »
Paul told the Thessalonians that their entire BODY soul and spirit would be PRESERVED blameless UNTIL the Lord's coming (1 Thess. 5:23). This CLEARLY means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE at the Lord's return.
 
About this verse 19th century Preterist J. Stuart Russell said,
 
Quote
If any shadow of a doubt still rested on the question whether St. Paul believed and taught the incidence of the Parousia in his own day, this passage will dispel it. No words can more clearly imply this belief than this prayer that the Thessalonian Christians might not die before the appearing of Christ.
 

 Then Paul said, "Faithful is He that calls you who also WILL DO IT."

thinker
 


1 thess 5:23 IS DEPENDENT upon the believer keeping verses 14 -22, SO THAT they CAN enjoy verse 23.....

ALSO if you read verse 23, Paul PRAYs (to God) that their WHOLE spirit soul and body would BE Preserved blamelss until Christ comes.  Since Paul won't always be at their side, he hopes they stay the course (14-22)

Why are you changing the subject? My op was about Christ's return in Paul's time.

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Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2012, 08:03:36 AM »
Paul told the Thessalonians that their entire BODY soul and spirit would be PRESERVED blameless UNTIL the Lord's coming (1 Thess. 5:23). This CLEARLY means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE at the Lord's return.
 
About this verse 19th century Preterist J. Stuart Russell said,
 
Quote
If any shadow of a doubt still rested on the question whether St. Paul believed and taught the incidence of the Parousia in his own day, this passage will dispel it. No words can more clearly imply this belief than this prayer that the Thessalonian Christians might not die before the appearing of Christ.
 

 Then Paul said, "Faithful is He that calls you who also WILL DO IT."

thinker
 


1 thess 5:23 IS DEPENDENT upon the believer keeping verses 14 -22, SO THAT they CAN enjoy verse 23.....

ALSO if you read verse 23, Paul PRAYs (to God) that their WHOLE spirit soul and body would BE Preserved blamelss until Christ comes.  Since Paul won't always be at their side, he hopes they stay the course (14-22)

Why are you changing the subject? My op was about Christ's return in Paul's time.

thinker


I didn't change anything, I just cleared up the error you use (verse23) to claim Christ has already came.  Nothing I said above is in error about the verses, you take one verse to make a point and I took all the verses to show you were wrong........ Claiming Christ has come is a very serious thing you do to other believers who have the hope of his return.....
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Offline Debbie_55

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2012, 01:14:19 PM »
The whole theme of 1 Thessalonians chapter 5 is Paul teaching those about the return of Christ and was giving instruction of how to live Holy until His coming and in verse 23 Paul is praying that they stay Holy even unto physical death waiting until the day of Christ return that they would be raised incorruptible to be with the Lord forever.

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57  But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Joshua 24:15 as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2012, 01:14:19 PM »



thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2012, 02:14:56 PM »
knowledgebomb wrote:
Quote
I didn't change anything, I just cleared up the error you use (verse23) to claim Christ has already came.  Nothing I said above is in error about the verses, you take one verse to make a point and I took all the verses to show you were wrong........ Claiming Christ has come is a very serious thing you do to other believers who have the hope of his return.....

I have NOT taken just one verse. On other threads I have invoked 2 Thessalonians 1:3-8 many times. Paul promised the Thessalonians that they would get relief from their persecutions "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven." This means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE when He came. They were not to get relief from their persecutions after they died. They were to get it "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven."

I have also invoked Christ's word to the church at Thyatira. He said to them, "Hold fast til I come" (Rev. 2:25). Note that Jesus did NOT say, "Hold fast til death." He said, "Hold fast til I come" which makes no sense if Jesus was not to come in THEIR time.

I have also invoked Hebrews 10:37 which says, "In a very, very little while He who is coming will come and will not delay."

Paul said, "WE who are living and remaining in His coming...." The "WE" is Paul and the first generation of Christians.

Again, Paul prayed that the Thessalonians would be PRESERVED in body, soul and spirit until the Lord's coming. Then he said, "Faithful is He that calls you who also will do it."

They would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE at the Lord's return because their body soul and spirit would be altogether intact at His coming. This is unrefutable!

Therefore, He returned in THAT generation.

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Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2012, 02:46:31 PM »
Paul told the Thessalonians that their entire BODY soul and spirit would be PRESERVED blameless UNTIL the Lord's coming (1 Thess. 5:23). This CLEARLY means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE at the Lord's return.
 
About this verse 19th century Preterist J. Stuart Russell said,
 
Quote
If any shadow of a doubt still rested on the question whether St. Paul believed and taught the incidence of the Parousia in his own day, this passage will dispel it. No words can more clearly imply this belief than this prayer that the Thessalonian Christians might not die before the appearing of Christ.
 

 Then Paul said, "Faithful is He that calls you who also WILL DO IT."

thinker
 


1 thess 5:23 IS DEPENDENT upon the believer keeping verses 14 -22, SO THAT they CAN enjoy verse 23.....

ALSO if you read verse 23, Paul PRAYs (to God) that their WHOLE spirit soul and body would BE Preserved blamelss until Christ comes.  Since Paul won't always be at their side, he hopes they stay the course (14-22)

DEBBIE also said:
The whole theme of 1 Thessalonians chapter 5 is Paul teaching those about the return of Christ and was giving instruction of how to live Holy until His coming and in verse 23 Paul is praying that they stay Holy even unto physical death waiting until the day of Christ return that they would be raised incorruptible to be with the Lord forever.
END DEBBIE END

IT's pauls hope they STAY THE COURSE - overcoming until death or rapture. Rev 2:10 tells us to be faithful to death and Christ will give you a crown, which means if you don't overcome, you don't recieve that crown of LIFE!  All of the letters to ALL BELIEVERS (to him who has an ear) talk of overcoming, and that's till DEATH.

The prodicals son is such a case...
1. He was saved
2. He left his father and had no salvation
3. He returned and what was said?

You were dead and you live again...

If he lived AGAIN, it means he lived before (he left) but while he was gone he was DEAD and Paul is praying that they won't fall away... The prodicals son COULD of stayed DEAD amd lost his salvation.

Paul prays that they will (stay abiding in Christ) till death and overcome.....

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as it is to KNOW what IS

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2012, 02:53:04 PM »
TheTHINKER, so if Christ has came back

1. Did the rapture where every eye sees Jesus happen yet?
2. Did Jesus come with all his saints yet? (Rev 19:11-21)
3. Did Jesus have a 1000 yr reign yet?
4. Where are we now?
5. What's next?
It's just as important to KNOW what's NOT in the Bible
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thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2012, 02:53:23 PM »
Paul told the Thessalonians that their entire BODY soul and spirit would be PRESERVED blameless UNTIL the Lord's coming (1 Thess. 5:23). This CLEARLY means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE at the Lord's return.
 
About this verse 19th century Preterist J. Stuart Russell said,
 
Quote
If any shadow of a doubt still rested on the question whether St. Paul believed and taught the incidence of the Parousia in his own day, this passage will dispel it. No words can more clearly imply this belief than this prayer that the Thessalonian Christians might not die before the appearing of Christ.
 

 Then Paul said, "Faithful is He that calls you who also WILL DO IT."

thinker
 


1 thess 5:23 IS DEPENDENT upon the believer keeping verses 14 -22, SO THAT they CAN enjoy verse 23.....

ALSO if you read verse 23, Paul PRAYs (to God) that their WHOLE spirit soul and body would BE Preserved blamelss until Christ comes.  Since Paul won't always be at their side, he hopes they stay the course (14-22)

DEBBIE also said:
The whole theme of 1 Thessalonians chapter 5 is Paul teaching those about the return of Christ and was giving instruction of how to live Holy until His coming and in verse 23 Paul is praying that they stay Holy even unto physical death waiting until the day of Christ return that they would be raised incorruptible to be with the Lord forever.
END DEBBIE END

IT's pauls hope they STAY THE COURSE - overcoming until death or rapture. Rev 2:10 tells us to be faithful to death and Christ will give you a crown, which means if you don't overcome, you don't recieve that crown of LIFE!  All of the letters to ALL BELIEVERS (to him who has an ear) talk of overcoming, and that's till DEATH.

The prodicals son is such a case...
1. He was saved
2. He left his father and had no salvation
3. He returned and what was said?

You were dead and you live again...

If he lived AGAIN, it means he lived before (he left) but while he was gone he was DEAD and Paul is praying that they won't fall away... The prodicals son COULD of stayed DEAD amd lost his salvation.

Paul prays that they will (stay abiding in Christ) till death and overcome.....



First, answer my reply# 5 please.

Second, Debbie's argument that Paul prayed but would not always be with them is fallacious on two counts

1. Paul said, "Faithful is he who calls you who also will do it."

2. Paul said, "WE who are living and remaining in the Lord's coming...." The "WE" is Paul and the Thessalonians. Therefore, Paul would be with them up until the Lord's coming.

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thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2012, 02:55:51 PM »
TheTHINKER, so if Christ has came back

1. Did the rapture where every eye sees I'm happen yet?
2. Did Jesus come with all his saints yet? (Rev 19:11-21)
3. Did Jesus have a 1000 yr reign yet?
4. Where are we now?
5. What's next?


See my thread "We are caught away individually in successions"

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/we-are-caught-away-individually-in-successions/

thinker

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2012, 03:43:21 PM »
I have also invoked Christ's word to the church at Thyatira. He said to them, "Hold fast til I come" (Rev. 2:25). Note that Jesus did NOT say, "Hold fast til death." He said, "Hold fast til I come" which makes no sense if Jesus was not to come in THEIR time.
END END END

KNOWLEDGEBOMB replies:

so if that's the case with your reasoning then the letter to the church of Philadelphia has them dying in order to overcome and recieve life.... So one church he says live and one he says to death....

See how both these things only work the way both debbie and I said... 



 
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thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2012, 04:48:55 PM »
knowledgebomb said:
Quote
so if that's the case with your reasoning then the letter to the church of Philadelphia has them dying in order to overcome and recieve life.... So one church he says live and one he says to death....

See how both these things only work the way both debbie and I said...

Jesus told Thyatira and Philadelphia the same basic thing. He told Thyatira to "hold fast til I come" and He told Philadelphia "I come quickly."

Again Jesus' command to "hold fast til I come" makes no sense if He was not to come in their time. He would have said, "hold fast til death" which He did NOT say.

Back to 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24. Debbie's argument that Paul prayed for them but would not always be with them is fallacious for two reasons.

1. Paul said, "Faithful is He that calls you who also will do it."'

2. Paul also said, "WE who are living and remaining in His coming...." The "WE" is Paul and the first generations christians.

So Paul expected to be with them UP UNTIL the Lord's coming.

Paul PROMISED that their body, soul and spirit would be preserved altogether intact at the Lord's coming. This means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE at His coming. It's clear!

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Offline Debbie_55

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2012, 09:45:43 AM »
Question to those who think Jesus has already come back.

First I have never seen any scripture stating in fact that Jesus has already come back for his bride nor that there are two second comings, but only instruction in His word to be prepared for when he does return in the air to raise up His who are in him to the resurrection of life and to others who rejected him a resurrection to death, or eternal separation from him. I read in scripture where Jesus comes back and sets his feet on the Mount of Olives to make and end of all abominations and then we will be with the Lord forever when he ushers down the new earth and new Jerusalem after this one is burned up and made new again.

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Joshua 24:15 as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

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thethinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2012, 10:40:19 AM »
Question to those who think Jesus has already come back.

First I have never seen any scripture stating in fact that Jesus has already come back for his bride nor that there are two second comings, but only instruction in His word to be prepared for when he does return in the air to raise up His who are in him to the resurrection of life and to others who rejected him a resurrection to death, or eternal separation from him. I read in scripture where Jesus comes back and sets his feet on the Mount of Olives to make and end of all abominations and then we will be with the Lord forever when he ushers down the new earth and new Jerusalem after this one is burned up and made new again.

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Debbie,

First, Paul did NOT say that we would all be caught up at the same time. Each of us are caught up individually when we die. The old testament saints were resurrected when Jesus returned in ad70. After that God's people don't "die" and go down to sheol. They are "caught up" now to their body from heaven.

If you were an old testament saint and you died in an accident you would go down to be bound in sheol. Christ had not paid for sins yet and so you could not go to heaven.

But you are a new testament saint and your sins are paid for. So if you die in an accident you don't go down to sheol. You are "caught up" to meet the Lord clothed in your body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5).

Paul told the Thessalonians that their body, soul and spirit would be PRESERVED until the Lord's coming. This means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE when He returned. But each would be "caught up" in his own time.

The scripture nowhere says that Jesus would return to the Mt. of Olives. See my threads at the links below

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/who-was-to-stand-on-the-mt-of-olives-jehovah-or-jesus/

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/trinitarian-translations-which-show-that-jesus-is-not-jehovah-in-zech-1210/

Start from the beginning of each thread.

thinker

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Re: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2012, 08:58:07 PM »
Paul told the Thessalonians that their entire BODY soul and spirit would be PRESERVED blameless UNTIL the Lord's coming (1 Thess. 5:23). This CLEARLY means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE at the Lord's return.
 
About this verse 19th century Preterist J. Stuart Russell said,
 
Quote
If any shadow of a doubt still rested on the question whether St. Paul believed and taught the incidence of the Parousia in his own day, this passage will dispel it. No words can more clearly imply this belief than this prayer that the Thessalonian Christians might not die before the appearing of Christ.
 

 Then Paul said, "Faithful is He that calls you who also WILL DO IT."

thinker
 


1 thess 5:23 IS DEPENDENT upon the believer keeping verses 14 -22, SO THAT they CAN enjoy verse 23.....

ALSO if you read verse 23, Paul PRAYs (to God) that their WHOLE spirit soul and body would BE Preserved blamelss until Christ comes.  Since Paul won't always be at their side, he hopes they stay the course (14-22)

Why are you changing the subject? My op was about Christ's return in Paul's time.

thinker


I didn't change anything, I just cleared up the error you use (verse23) to claim Christ has already came.  Nothing I said above is in error about the verses, you take one verse to make a point and I took all the verses to show you were wrong........ Claiming Christ has come is a very serious thing you do to other believers who have the hope of his return.....

Is Christ in you?  Then He came. That is fulfilled hope.