Author Topic: CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong  (Read 1214 times)

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Offline Happy22

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CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong
« on: Wed Jul 31, 2013 - 07:56:08 »

 
Lewis wrote another theological book near the end of his brilliant, literary career entitled The World’s Last Night: And Other Essays (1960). In it, he alleges surprisingly, “the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else” (p. 97). So, C. S. Lewis said Jesus “was wrong” about something very important–when he would return.

Do you agree the Jesus was wrong?

Offline Red Baker

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Re: CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong
« Reply #1 on: Wed Jul 31, 2013 - 08:57:34 »

 
Lewis wrote another theological book near the end of his brilliant, literary career entitled The World’s Last Night: And Other Essays (1960). In it, he alleges surprisingly, “the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else” (p. 97). So, C. S. Lewis said Jesus “was wrong” about something very important–when he would return.

Do you agree the Jesus was wrong?

C.S. Lewis was under a strong delusion of Satan. 

#1~ "And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’

C.I Lewis  was in darkness concerning "this generation"~it has absolutely no reference to the then present generation of Jews living!  This generation has reference to the generation of the wicked, that the Lord Jesus just spent his whole discourse speaking against.  The blind leading the blind!

#2~ "And he was wrong."What a bold devilish spirit!    We will see.

#3~"He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else” (p. 97)~

Jesus just gave a long discourse concerning the last days of this world, and any who have a understanding of the scriptures overall, knows that C. L.  Lewis is the one that knew nothing of the truth.  Jesus was interpreting Daniel for any one who have eyes to see and ears to hear.  Jesus' humanity did not know the day or hour in which the Son of God would return, that is the only thing that was hidden in the secret will of The eternal God.  This is a great mystery to us concerning the complex nature of Jesus being both all man and all God.  His Divinity knew the day and hour; his humanity did not.

But understanding the mysteries hidden within the scriptures themselves, he did, for he was the greatest prophet that ever lived in the flesh, bar none.

RB
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 31, 2013 - 08:59:46 by Red Baker »

Offline chosenone

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Re: CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong
« Reply #2 on: Wed Jul 31, 2013 - 09:00:34 »
Jesus will come when God tells Him to and not before. This is another thread the same as the one you started earlier.
Why are you driven to think you have to convince everyone that Jesus has already come when we all know he hasn't? I dont feel driven to convince you He hasn't, because you will find out soon enough.

Offline AVZ

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Re: CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong
« Reply #3 on: Wed Jul 31, 2013 - 09:27:24 »

 
Lewis wrote another theological book near the end of his brilliant, literary career entitled The World’s Last Night: And Other Essays (1960). In it, he alleges surprisingly, “the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else” (p. 97). So, C. S. Lewis said Jesus “was wrong” about something very important–when he would return.

Do you agree the Jesus was wrong?

This is quite a misconstruction of what CS Lewis said.
Following the above paragraph, CS Lewis writes another 3 or 4 paragraphs trying to explain the possible misconception of this verse in the Bible.

Would you be interested to know the answer to your question, then you should read on and find out what else CS Lewis has to say.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong
« Reply #4 on: Wed Jul 31, 2013 - 09:47:46 »
Psalm 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

I believe that is the answer to the question. David's 22 Psalm is about Christ. I believe when Christ is talking about "this generation", He is talking about Himself.

"This generation" is will not pass away because He is risen & lives forever:

"39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. - Deuteronomy 32
« Last Edit: Wed Jul 31, 2013 - 09:51:01 by TonkaTim »

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Re: CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong
« Reply #4 on: Wed Jul 31, 2013 - 09:47:46 »



Offline Red Baker

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Re: CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong
« Reply #5 on: Wed Jul 31, 2013 - 09:53:34 »
Psalm 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

I believe that is the answer to the question. David's 22 Psalm is about Christ. I believe when Christ is talking about "this generation", He is talking about Himself.

"This generation" is will not pass away because He is risen & lives forever:

"39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. - Deuteronomy 32

You are wrong.  Read Psalm 12, and David will clearly reveal to us who is "this generation".

RB

Offline Happy22

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Re: CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong
« Reply #6 on: Wed Jul 31, 2013 - 10:02:59 »

 
Lewis wrote another theological book near the end of his brilliant, literary career entitled The World’s Last Night: And Other Essays (1960). In it, he alleges surprisingly, “the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else” (p. 97). So, C. S. Lewis said Jesus “was wrong” about something very important–when he would return.

Do you agree the Jesus was wrong?

This is quite a misconstruction of what CS Lewis said.
Following the above paragraph, CS Lewis writes another 3 or 4 paragraphs trying to explain the possible misconception of this verse in the Bible.

Would you be interested to know the answer to your question, then you should read on and find out what else CS Lewis has to say.

This is the quote:

Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.”

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side. That they stood thus in the mouth of Jesus himself, and were not merely placed thus by the reporter, we surely need not doubt. Unless the reporter were perfectly honest he would never have recorded the confession of ignorance at all; he could have had no motive for doing so except a desire to tell the whole truth. And unless later copyists were equally honest they would never have preserved the (apparently) mistaken prediction about “this generation” after the passage of time had shown the (apparent) mistake. This passage (Mark 13:30-32) and the cry “Why hast thou forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34) together make up the strongest proof that the New Testament is historically reliable. The evangelists have the first great characteristic of honest witnesses: they mention facts which are, at first sight, damaging to their main contention.

The facts, then, are these: that Jesus professed himself (in some sense) ignorant, and within a moment showed that he really was so. To believe in the Incarnation, to believe that he is God, makes it hard to understand how he could be ignorant; but also makes it certain that, if he said he could be ignorant, then ignorant he could really be. For a God who can be ignorant is less baffling than a God who falsely professes ignorance. The answer of theologians is that the God-Man was omniscient as God, and ignorant as Man. This, no doubt, is true, though it cannot be imagined. Nor indeed can the unconsciousness of Christ in sleep be imagined, nor the twilight of reason in his infancy; still less his merely organic life in his mother’s womb… It would be difficult, and, to me, repellent, to suppose that Jesus never asked a genuine question, that is, a question to which he did not know the answer. That would make of his humanity something so unlike ours as scarcely to deserve the name. I find it easier to believe that when be said “Who touched me?” (Luke 7:45) he really wanted to know.
The highlighted parts are Lewis' own words ... he says Jesus is ignorant, and at the end of this quote: that He really did not know who touched Him.

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong
« Reply #7 on: Wed Jul 31, 2013 - 10:25:39 »
Psalm 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

I believe that is the answer to the question. David's 22 Psalm is about Christ. I believe when Christ is talking about "this generation", He is talking about Himself.

"This generation" is will not pass away because He is risen & lives forever:

"39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. - Deuteronomy 32

You are wrong.  Read Psalm 12, and David will clearly reveal to us who is "this generation".

RB

I might would be more inclined to agree if they were they same word used in the same context with the same specific meaning.

Psalm 12 - הַדּ֖וֹר -  hadur

Psalm 22 - לַדּֽוֹר׃- ladur


Since they are not the exact same specific word, With ladur alluding to a coming generation who is the seed we all know & understand is a promise to Abraham fulfilled as Christ. I think the context of "this generation" is Psalms 22 is clearly Christ. Even more clear since the context of Psalm 22 is about Christ & even His crucifixion, a prophecy 1000 years prior.

Offline AVZ

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Re: CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong
« Reply #8 on: Wed Jul 31, 2013 - 10:36:08 »

 
Lewis wrote another theological book near the end of his brilliant, literary career entitled The World’s Last Night: And Other Essays (1960). In it, he alleges surprisingly, “the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else” (p. 97). So, C. S. Lewis said Jesus “was wrong” about something very important–when he would return.

Do you agree the Jesus was wrong?

This is quite a misconstruction of what CS Lewis said.
Following the above paragraph, CS Lewis writes another 3 or 4 paragraphs trying to explain the possible misconception of this verse in the Bible.

Would you be interested to know the answer to your question, then you should read on and find out what else CS Lewis has to say.

This is the quote:

Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.”

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side. That they stood thus in the mouth of Jesus himself, and were not merely placed thus by the reporter, we surely need not doubt. Unless the reporter were perfectly honest he would never have recorded the confession of ignorance at all; he could have had no motive for doing so except a desire to tell the whole truth. And unless later copyists were equally honest they would never have preserved the (apparently) mistaken prediction about “this generation” after the passage of time had shown the (apparent) mistake. This passage (Mark 13:30-32) and the cry “Why hast thou forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34) together make up the strongest proof that the New Testament is historically reliable. The evangelists have the first great characteristic of honest witnesses: they mention facts which are, at first sight, damaging to their main contention.

The facts, then, are these: that Jesus professed himself (in some sense) ignorant, and within a moment showed that he really was so. To believe in the Incarnation, to believe that he is God, makes it hard to understand how he could be ignorant; but also makes it certain that, if he said he could be ignorant, then ignorant he could really be. For a God who can be ignorant is less baffling than a God who falsely professes ignorance. The answer of theologians is that the God-Man was omniscient as God, and ignorant as Man. This, no doubt, is true, though it cannot be imagined. Nor indeed can the unconsciousness of Christ in sleep be imagined, nor the twilight of reason in his infancy; still less his merely organic life in his mother’s womb… It would be difficult, and, to me, repellent, to suppose that Jesus never asked a genuine question, that is, a question to which he did not know the answer. That would make of his humanity something so unlike ours as scarcely to deserve the name. I find it easier to believe that when be said “Who touched me?” (Luke 7:45) he really wanted to know.
The highlighted parts are Lewis' own words ... he says Jesus is ignorant, and at the end of this quote: that He really did not know who touched Him.

This was your claim in your start post:

"So, C. S. Lewis said Jesus “was wrong” about something very important–when he would return."

Now that we have the all the applicable paragraphs, you can read for yourself that CS Lewis never made such a statement.

Offline Happy22

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Re: CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong
« Reply #9 on: Wed Jul 31, 2013 - 12:15:39 »
Jesus will come when God tells Him to and not before. This is another thread the same as the one you started earlier.
Why are you driven to think you have to convince everyone that Jesus has already come when we all know he hasn't? I dont feel driven to convince you He hasn't, because you will find out soon enough.
I notice you did not answer the question again. Did Jesus lie?

Anything which can enhance and improve your relationship with God is important. Would you not like to know if your understanding of Scripture is off by even a small degree, and would you not agree that if the Kingdom of God is a present reality that is a rather important issue to be aware of? Eschatology affects virtually all aspects of Christianity; in fact almost every message preached by Jesus had an eschatological aspect to it: the message was often about critical issues like the coming Kingdom of God and the restoration of God’s presence to people’s lives.

The apparent belief that failure of these prophesies to come true has led to skepticism about the reliability of the Bible and the deity of Christ. Preterism solves this problem by maintaining that these prophecies did, in fact, have a first century fulfillment. If Preterist eschatology is true, then Christians can offer a much MORE POSITIVE PERSPECTIVE to the world, rather than a fatalistic end of the world where our actions make no difference. If we are confident as Christians that WE CAN POSITIVELY INFLUENCE THE WORLD around us, we can perhaps motivate believers to actively be involved in helping the poor, caring for the environment, actively participate in politics and preserving the world for all future generations. PRETERISM OFFERS HOPS and maintains the integrity of the Scripture and of the entire Christian faith while it defends it against other religions and Christian cults that place the Second Coming of Jesus after A.D. 70.



Offline Happy22

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Re: CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong
« Reply #10 on: Wed Jul 31, 2013 - 12:20:07 »

 
Lewis wrote another theological book near the end of his brilliant, literary career entitled The World’s Last Night: And Other Essays (1960). In it, he alleges surprisingly, “the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else” (p. 97). So, C. S. Lewis said Jesus “was wrong” about something very important–when he would return.

Do you agree the Jesus was wrong?

This is quite a misconstruction of what CS Lewis said.
Following the above paragraph, CS Lewis writes another 3 or 4 paragraphs trying to explain the possible misconception of this verse in the Bible.

Would you be interested to know the answer to your question, then you should read on and find out what else CS Lewis has to say.

This is the quote:

Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.”

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side. That they stood thus in the mouth of Jesus himself, and were not merely placed thus by the reporter, we surely need not doubt. Unless the reporter were perfectly honest he would never have recorded the confession of ignorance at all; he could have had no motive for doing so except a desire to tell the whole truth. And unless later copyists were equally honest they would never have preserved the (apparently) mistaken prediction about “this generation” after the passage of time had shown the (apparent) mistake. This passage (Mark 13:30-32) and the cry “Why hast thou forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34) together make up the strongest proof that the New Testament is historically reliable. The evangelists have the first great characteristic of honest witnesses: they mention facts which are, at first sight, damaging to their main contention.

The facts, then, are these: that Jesus professed himself (in some sense) ignorant, and within a moment showed that he really was so. To believe in the Incarnation, to believe that he is God, makes it hard to understand how he could be ignorant; but also makes it certain that, if he said he could be ignorant, then ignorant he could really be. For a God who can be ignorant is less baffling than a God who falsely professes ignorance. The answer of theologians is that the God-Man was omniscient as God, and ignorant as Man. This, no doubt, is true, though it cannot be imagined. Nor indeed can the unconsciousness of Christ in sleep be imagined, nor the twilight of reason in his infancy; still less his merely organic life in his mother’s womb… It would be difficult, and, to me, repellent, to suppose that Jesus never asked a genuine question, that is, a question to which he did not know the answer. That would make of his humanity something so unlike ours as scarcely to deserve the name. I find it easier to believe that when be said “Who touched me?” (Luke 7:45) he really wanted to know.
The highlighted parts are Lewis' own words ... he says Jesus is ignorant, and at the end of this quote: that He really did not know who touched Him.

This was your claim in your start post:

"So, C. S. Lewis said Jesus “was wrong” about something very important–when he would return."

Now that we have the all the applicable paragraphs, you can read for yourself that CS Lewis never made such a statement.

You aren't reading the first sentence.  You seem to have a misguided view of what CS Lewis believed. In his autobiography (Surprised by Joy), Lewis tells how at age 13 he abandoned his Anglican faith due to the influence of a school mistress who was involved with "Theosophy, Rosicrucianism, Spiritualism; the whole Anglo-American Occultist tradition." And Lewis developed a "lust" for the occult that remained with him even after he returned to Anglicanism. He said,

"And that started in me something with which, on and off, I have had plenty of trouble since--the desire for the preternatural, simply as such, the passion for the Occult. Not everyone has this disease; those who have will know what I mean. I once tried to describe it in a novel. It is a spiritual lust; and like the lust of the body it has the fatal power of making everything else in the world seem uninteresting while it lasts." ("Surprised by Joy," Harcourt Brace, 1955, pages 58-60.)

The moment you mention Matthew 16:27-28 to any preacher or theology expert, the age old tactics of explaining away scriptures starts. That is when CS Lewis made his statement that Jesus was wrong.

Offline Red Baker

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Re: CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong
« Reply #11 on: Wed Jul 31, 2013 - 13:50:57 »
Jesus will come when God tells Him to and not before. This is another thread the same as the one you started earlier.
Why are you driven to think you have to convince everyone that Jesus has already come when we all know he hasn't? I dont feel driven to convince you He hasn't, because you will find out soon enough.
I notice you did not answer the question again. Did Jesus lie?

Anything which can enhance and improve your relationship with God is important. Would you not like to know if your understanding of Scripture is off by even a small degree, and would you not agree that if the Kingdom of God is a present reality that is a rather important issue to be aware of? Eschatology affects virtually all aspects of Christianity; in fact almost every message preached by Jesus had an eschatological aspect to it: the message was often about critical issues like the coming Kingdom of God and the restoration of God’s presence to people’s lives.

The apparent belief that failure of these prophesies to come true has led to skepticism about the reliability of the Bible and the deity of Christ. Preterism solves this problem by maintaining that these prophecies did, in fact, have a first century fulfillment. If Preterist eschatology is true, then Christians can offer a much MORE POSITIVE PERSPECTIVE to the world, rather than a fatalistic end of the world where our actions make no difference. If we are confident as Christians that WE CAN POSITIVELY INFLUENCE THE WORLD around us, we can perhaps motivate believers to actively be involved in helping the poor, caring for the environment, actively participate in politics and preserving the world for all future generations. PRETERISM OFFERS HOPS and maintains the integrity of the Scripture and of the entire Christian faith while it defends it against other religions and Christian cults that place the Second Coming of Jesus after A.D. 70.

Happy22 said these words:"Preterism solves this problem by maintaining that these prophecies did, in fact, have a first century fulfillment."

Preterism is a lie.  Your corrupt system is supported not by the word of God, but must use extra-biblical means, such as, history to even give it any credibility, or consideration by some serious believers.  You house of cards are built upon sound bites and history, period.  A wise man can easy see through the corruption that your theology is built upon.  Your system is a hopeless system, that has no blessed hope for Believers to hope for.

I must run, but shall return.

RB

Offline Happy22

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Re: CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong
« Reply #12 on: Wed Jul 31, 2013 - 14:11:54 »
Jesus will come when God tells Him to and not before. This is another thread the same as the one you started earlier.
Why are you driven to think you have to convince everyone that Jesus has already come when we all know he hasn't? I dont feel driven to convince you He hasn't, because you will find out soon enough.
I notice you did not answer the question again. Did Jesus lie?

Anything which can enhance and improve your relationship with God is important. Would you not like to know if your understanding of Scripture is off by even a small degree, and would you not agree that if the Kingdom of God is a present reality that is a rather important issue to be aware of? Eschatology affects virtually all aspects of Christianity; in fact almost every message preached by Jesus had an eschatological aspect to it: the message was often about critical issues like the coming Kingdom of God and the restoration of God’s presence to people’s lives.

The apparent belief that failure of these prophesies to come true has led to skepticism about the reliability of the Bible and the deity of Christ. Preterism solves this problem by maintaining that these prophecies did, in fact, have a first century fulfillment. If Preterist eschatology is true, then Christians can offer a much MORE POSITIVE PERSPECTIVE to the world, rather than a fatalistic end of the world where our actions make no difference. If we are confident as Christians that WE CAN POSITIVELY INFLUENCE THE WORLD around us, we can perhaps motivate believers to actively be involved in helping the poor, caring for the environment, actively participate in politics and preserving the world for all future generations. PRETERISM OFFERS HOPS and maintains the integrity of the Scripture and of the entire Christian faith while it defends it against other religions and Christian cults that place the Second Coming of Jesus after A.D. 70.

Happy22 said these words:"Preterism solves this problem by maintaining that these prophecies did, in fact, have a first century fulfillment."

Preterism is a lie.  Your corrupt system is supported not by the word of God, but must use extra-biblical means, such as, history to even give it any credibility, or consideration by some serious believers.  You house of cards are built upon sound bites and history, period.  A wise man can easy see through the corruption that your theology is built upon.  Your system is a hopeless system, that has no blessed hope for Believers to hope for.

I must run, but shall return.

RB
I don't read Hal Lindsey or Tim Lahaye or other Left Behind books, so I have only the Bible as my guide.

 It appears from the scriptures that the chief concern of Jesus was to bring about the Kingdom of God. The two major issues with the Kingdom are of timing and nature, allowing Preterism to offer solid answers to those seeking questions about the Kingdom:

The Timing of the Kingdom
Was “at hand”
Was to come “in the days of the kings” described in Daniel 2 (i.e. the first century)
The Nature of the Kingdom
Is “not of this world”
Is a “new way of thinking”
It will “renew” the creation, especially the hearts of men
It is therefore unreasonable for Christians to expect the Kingdom of God to be anything other than a spiritual reality. The purpose of Jesus was to bring good news to the poor, freedom to prisoners, and comfort to those who mourn (see Isaiah 61). Jesus did not come to institute an earthly kingdom in which He would rule in a theocratic-style dictatorship; rather he came to free us from our presuppositions, from sin and its guilt, and bring healing to our hearts. Yes, the Kingdom of God did come in the first century and it is a present reality.

Offline AVZ

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Re: CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong
« Reply #13 on: Wed Jul 31, 2013 - 20:11:46 »

 
Lewis wrote another theological book near the end of his brilliant, literary career entitled The World’s Last Night: And Other Essays (1960). In it, he alleges surprisingly, “the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else” (p. 97). So, C. S. Lewis said Jesus “was wrong” about something very important–when he would return.

Do you agree the Jesus was wrong?

This is quite a misconstruction of what CS Lewis said.
Following the above paragraph, CS Lewis writes another 3 or 4 paragraphs trying to explain the possible misconception of this verse in the Bible.

Would you be interested to know the answer to your question, then you should read on and find out what else CS Lewis has to say.

This is the quote:

Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.”

It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side. That they stood thus in the mouth of Jesus himself, and were not merely placed thus by the reporter, we surely need not doubt. Unless the reporter were perfectly honest he would never have recorded the confession of ignorance at all; he could have had no motive for doing so except a desire to tell the whole truth. And unless later copyists were equally honest they would never have preserved the (apparently) mistaken prediction about “this generation” after the passage of time had shown the (apparent) mistake. This passage (Mark 13:30-32) and the cry “Why hast thou forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34) together make up the strongest proof that the New Testament is historically reliable. The evangelists have the first great characteristic of honest witnesses: they mention facts which are, at first sight, damaging to their main contention.

The facts, then, are these: that Jesus professed himself (in some sense) ignorant, and within a moment showed that he really was so. To believe in the Incarnation, to believe that he is God, makes it hard to understand how he could be ignorant; but also makes it certain that, if he said he could be ignorant, then ignorant he could really be. For a God who can be ignorant is less baffling than a God who falsely professes ignorance. The answer of theologians is that the God-Man was omniscient as God, and ignorant as Man. This, no doubt, is true, though it cannot be imagined. Nor indeed can the unconsciousness of Christ in sleep be imagined, nor the twilight of reason in his infancy; still less his merely organic life in his mother’s womb… It would be difficult, and, to me, repellent, to suppose that Jesus never asked a genuine question, that is, a question to which he did not know the answer. That would make of his humanity something so unlike ours as scarcely to deserve the name. I find it easier to believe that when be said “Who touched me?” (Luke 7:45) he really wanted to know.
The highlighted parts are Lewis' own words ... he says Jesus is ignorant, and at the end of this quote: that He really did not know who touched Him.

This was your claim in your start post:

"So, C. S. Lewis said Jesus “was wrong” about something very important–when he would return."

Now that we have the all the applicable paragraphs, you can read for yourself that CS Lewis never made such a statement.

You aren't reading the first sentence.  You seem to have a misguided view of what CS Lewis believed. In his autobiography (Surprised by Joy), Lewis tells how at age 13 he abandoned his Anglican faith due to the influence of a school mistress who was involved with "Theosophy, Rosicrucianism, Spiritualism; the whole Anglo-American Occultist tradition." And Lewis developed a "lust" for the occult that remained with him even after he returned to Anglicanism. He said,

"And that started in me something with which, on and off, I have had plenty of trouble since--the desire for the preternatural, simply as such, the passion for the Occult. Not everyone has this disease; those who have will know what I mean. I once tried to describe it in a novel. It is a spiritual lust; and like the lust of the body it has the fatal power of making everything else in the world seem uninteresting while it lasts." ("Surprised by Joy," Harcourt Brace, 1955, pages 58-60.)

The moment you mention Matthew 16:27-28 to any preacher or theology expert, the age old tactics of explaining away scriptures starts. That is when CS Lewis made his statement that Jesus was wrong.

You are sidetracking the post and not addressing the question.
It is clear that Lewis writes that the early Christians were wrong, Jesus was ignorant.
Being ignorant (not knowing) is different than being wrong, and Lewis makes his point.

It doesn't matter what Lewis believes, for all I care he believed that baby's are delivered by post.
Your deviation from the topic is an ad hominem, not an argument.

k-pappy

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Re: CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong
« Reply #14 on: Wed Jul 31, 2013 - 22:28:14 »

 
Lewis wrote another theological book near the end of his brilliant, literary career entitled The World’s Last Night: And Other Essays (1960). In it, he alleges surprisingly, “the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else” (p. 97). So, C. S. Lewis said Jesus “was wrong” about something very important–when he would return.

Do you agree the Jesus was wrong?

Your post is extremely misleading.

C.S. Lewis did NOT say that.  He wrote the essay and in that essay, he was quoting somebody else.  Those words were NOT his.

Offline Red Baker

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Re: CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong
« Reply #15 on: Thu Aug 01, 2013 - 04:36:16 »
Jesus will come when God tells Him to and not before. This is another thread the same as the one you started earlier.
Why are you driven to think you have to convince everyone that Jesus has already come when we all know he hasn't? I dont feel driven to convince you He hasn't, because you will find out soon enough.
I notice you did not answer the question again. Did Jesus lie?

Anything which can enhance and improve your relationship with God is important. Would you not like to know if your understanding of Scripture is off by even a small degree, and would you not agree that if the Kingdom of God is a present reality that is a rather important issue to be aware of? Eschatology affects virtually all aspects of Christianity; in fact almost every message preached by Jesus had an eschatological aspect to it: the message was often about critical issues like the coming Kingdom of God and the restoration of God’s presence to people’s lives.

The apparent belief that failure of these prophesies to come true has led to skepticism about the reliability of the Bible and the deity of Christ. Preterism solves this problem by maintaining that these prophecies did, in fact, have a first century fulfillment. If Preterist eschatology is true, then Christians can offer a much MORE POSITIVE PERSPECTIVE to the world, rather than a fatalistic end of the world where our actions make no difference. If we are confident as Christians that WE CAN POSITIVELY INFLUENCE THE WORLD around us, we can perhaps motivate believers to actively be involved in helping the poor, caring for the environment, actively participate in politics and preserving the world for all future generations. PRETERISM OFFERS HOPS and maintains the integrity of the Scripture and of the entire Christian faith while it defends it against other religions and Christian cults that place the Second Coming of Jesus after A.D. 70.

Happy22 said these words:"Preterism solves this problem by maintaining that these prophecies did, in fact, have a first century fulfillment."

Preterism is a lie.  Your corrupt system is supported not by the word of God, but must use extra-biblical means, such as, history to even give it any credibility, or consideration by some serious believers.  You house of cards are built upon sound bites and history, period.  A wise man can easy see through the corruption that your theology is built upon.  Your system is a hopeless system, that has no blessed hope for Believers to hope for.

I must run, but shall return.

RB
I don't read Hal Lindsey or Tim Lahaye or other Left Behind books, so I have only the Bible as my guide.

 It appears from the scriptures that the chief concern of Jesus was to bring about the Kingdom of God. The two major issues with the Kingdom are of timing and nature, allowing Preterism to offer solid answers to those seeking questions about the Kingdom:

The Timing of the Kingdom
Was “at hand”
Was to come “in the days of the kings” described in Daniel 2 (i.e. the first century)
The Nature of the Kingdom
Is “not of this world”
Is a “new way of thinking”
It will “renew” the creation, especially the hearts of men
It is therefore unreasonable for Christians to expect the Kingdom of God to be anything other than a spiritual reality. The purpose of Jesus was to bring good news to the poor, freedom to prisoners, and comfort to those who mourn (see Isaiah 61). Jesus did not come to institute an earthly kingdom in which He would rule in a theocratic-style dictatorship; rather he came to free us from our presuppositions, from sin and its guilt, and bring healing to our hearts. Yes, the Kingdom of God did come in the first century and it is a present reality.

Happy22,

1.  "I don't read Hal Lindsey or Tim Lahaye or other Left Behind books."

Neither do I, I reject their teachings as false, but that within itself does not make your doctrine true, nor mine. 

2.  " so I have only the Bible as my guide."

So do I, again that makes neither your position, or mine correct base upon that point. 

3.   "It appears from the scriptures that the chief concern of Jesus was to bring about the Kingdom of God." The chief mission was to do the will of God in the place of his elect, first and foremost, and then lay down his perfect life for their sins, which he did and God highly exalted him to his right hand of power, far above all principality, powers, might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come, which all of the true saints patiently are waiting for~for him to come and to receive them unto himself, that where he is, there will be for eternity, world without end.   He has not yet gather us unto himself as he has promised to do and as Paul and the other holy and true apostles promised us in their writing that we have as a faithful witness to trust in.  Eph. 1:21; 1 Thess. 4; 2 Thess. 1 and two.

4.  " the Kingdom of God."~The kingdom of God is revealed to us in a few sense in the scriptures.  The final phase of the kingdom where neither flesh or blood can enter, is what we are now waiting for, that shall be in the new heaven and earth.  Your false doctrine has eliminated that phase of God's kingdom from your corrupt system.  That phase of the kingdom of God is yet in the future.  Daniel 2:35; 7:22, 27; 1 Cor. 15. God Almighty is putting all of Christ's enemies under his feet, and when the very last enemy (death) shall be totally destroyed, then the glorious anticipated kingdom shall appear, and then we shall sit down with Abraham, Issac, and David, and with Him whom my soul loveth, Jesus, my glorious redeemer, and then shall be brought to pass that saying that Jesus said: "For they SHALL SEE GOD".... Oh bless the LORD oh my soul!

 
5. "The two major issues with the Kingdom are of timing and nature"

The major issue is being faithful with the scriptures overall, so that they will yield to us their true interpretation and for us not to force them to say what we want them to say, in order to defend our camp.

Happy22, I do not disagree that the kingdom of God is spiritual in nature, of course it is.  That's easy proven from the scriptures themselves, if we allow them to speak and not us forcing our wills and doctrines upon them.  No problem from me on this point.

As far as "Timing" goes~Jesus is ruling now over the house of David base upon Peter's words in Acts 2:22-36~specifically verses 31-36.  Agree.  And, also, this reign of Lord Jesus over the tabernacle of David, is strictly spiritual in nature~no problem concerning this point either.  But where you and bible believing, God fearing Christians will different is that we all believe in a "bodily coming of Jesus Christ to destroy this world, not just the nation of Israel, and give the kingdoms of this world to the children of God, and they shall reign forever more, without any of the generation of the wicked being mixed among them.  Your timing does not include this, but has cancelled it out of the word of God. 

6. "  Preterism to offer solid answers to those seeking questions about the Kingdom:" Only in your wishful thinking, and your desire to cause the simple to follow your corruption of the word of God.  You and your cohorts have stamped so much of the word of God "fulfilled in 70 A.D.!"  Even to a point that you have no bodily resurrection and no revelation coming of Jesus Christ, and I will add this:  your system removes all of the warnings of the scriptures to God's people concerning the great falling away and the revealing of the man of sin/antichrist/abomination of desolation that is spoken of several times in Daniel, Matthew 24, 2 Thess. 2; 2 Timothy 3-4:5; and Revelation.  I ask this question: WHO WOULD WANT THOSE WARNINGS REMOVED OR DENIED?  So as, to leave God's children unprepared for the evil days of the latter days of this world!  Men like you are being used to leave God's children in darkness and a easy prey to not be prepared in the mist of the great tribulation that is coming, yea in now at hand.  70 A.D. was not the great tribulation period spoken of by Jesus Christ, but your position teaches that lie, one of many.

I am going to stop, but do not mind for one second to finish answering the other points.  Maybe time will allow me to do so later.   Nothing that I have not dealt with many times before.

RB
« Last Edit: Thu Aug 01, 2013 - 04:40:55 by Red Baker »

Offline DaveW

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Re: CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong
« Reply #16 on: Thu Aug 01, 2013 - 05:47:13 »
I might would be more inclined to agree if they were they same word used in the same context with the same specific meaning.

Psalm 12 - הַדּ֖וֹר -  hadur

Psalm 22 - לַדּֽוֹר׃- ladur

Since they are not the exact same specific word, With ladur alluding to a coming generation who is the seed we all know & understand is a promise to Abraham fulfilled as Christ. I think the context of "this generation" is Psalms 22 is clearly Christ. Even more clear since the context of Psalm 22 is about Christ & even His crucifixion, a prophecy 1000 years prior.

Close.  Dor, (the root) is "generation." (the vav with a dot above it has a long O sound) L'- and ha- are prefixes. 

L'- or La- usually means "to."
Ha- is the definite article "the."   

So HaDor will mean simply "the generation."

In Ps 22, L'Dor means "to a generation." The translators of the NASB add 'coming,' while the translators of the NKJV use "next." Both are guesses.  Interestingly, the Tree of Life Version (TLV) also inserts "next" like the NKJV but in the commentary, Rabbi Glenn Blank writes the following:

"(Never mind that other psalms complain that the dead cannot praise Him! Can you decipher the mystery?)  Not only HIS generation, but all the generations to come will tell about Him. (31)"

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Re: CS Lewis said Jesus was wrong
« Reply #17 on: Thu Aug 01, 2013 - 18:03:14 »
Jesus will come when God tells Him to and not before. This is another thread the same as the one you started earlier.
Why are you driven to think you have to convince everyone that Jesus has already come when we all know he hasn't? I dont feel driven to convince you He hasn't, because you will find out soon enough.
I notice you did not answer the question again. Did Jesus lie?

Anything which can enhance and improve your relationship with God is important. Would you not like to know if your understanding of Scripture is off by even a small degree, and would you not agree that if the Kingdom of God is a present reality that is a rather important issue to be aware of? Eschatology affects virtually all aspects of Christianity; in fact almost every message preached by Jesus had an eschatological aspect to it: the message was often about critical issues like the coming Kingdom of God and the restoration of God’s presence to people’s lives.

The apparent belief that failure of these prophesies to come true has led to skepticism about the reliability of the Bible and the deity of Christ. Preterism solves this problem by maintaining that these prophecies did, in fact, have a first century fulfillment. If Preterist eschatology is true, then Christians can offer a much MORE POSITIVE PERSPECTIVE to the world, rather than a fatalistic end of the world where our actions make no difference. If we are confident as Christians that WE CAN POSITIVELY INFLUENCE THE WORLD around us, we can perhaps motivate believers to actively be involved in helping the poor, caring for the environment, actively participate in politics and preserving the world for all future generations. PRETERISM OFFERS HOPS and maintains the integrity of the Scripture and of the entire Christian faith while it defends it against other religions and Christian cults that place the Second Coming of Jesus after A.D. 70.

Happy22 said these words:"Preterism solves this problem by maintaining that these prophecies did, in fact, have a first century fulfillment."

Preterism is a lie.  Your corrupt system is supported not by the word of God, but must use extra-biblical means, such as, history to even give it any credibility, or consideration by some serious believers.  You house of cards are built upon sound bites and history, period.  A wise man can easy see through the corruption that your theology is built upon.  Your system is a hopeless system, that has no blessed hope for Believers to hope for.

I must run, but shall return.

RB
I don't read Hal Lindsey or Tim Lahaye or other Left Behind books, so I have only the Bible as my guide.

 It appears from the scriptures that the chief concern of Jesus was to bring about the Kingdom of God. The two major issues with the Kingdom are of timing and nature, allowing Preterism to offer solid answers to those seeking questions about the Kingdom:

The Timing of the Kingdom
Was “at hand”
Was to come “in the days of the kings” described in Daniel 2 (i.e. the first century)
The Nature of the Kingdom
Is “not of this world”
Is a “new way of thinking”
It will “renew” the creation, especially the hearts of men
It is therefore unreasonable for Christians to expect the Kingdom of God to be anything other than a spiritual reality. The purpose of Jesus was to bring good news to the poor, freedom to prisoners, and comfort to those who mourn (see Isaiah 61). Jesus did not come to institute an earthly kingdom in which He would rule in a theocratic-style dictatorship; rather he came to free us from our presuppositions, from sin and its guilt, and bring healing to our hearts. Yes, the Kingdom of God did come in the first century and it is a present reality.

Happy22,

1.  "I don't read Hal Lindsey or Tim Lahaye or other Left Behind books."

Neither do I, I reject their teachings as false, but that within itself does not make your doctrine true, nor mine. 

2.  " so I have only the Bible as my guide."

So do I, again that makes neither your position, or mine correct base upon that point. 

3.   "It appears from the scriptures that the chief concern of Jesus was to bring about the Kingdom of God." The chief mission was to do the will of God in the place of his elect, first and foremost, and then lay down his perfect life for their sins, which he did and God highly exalted him to his right hand of power, far above all principality, powers, might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come, which all of the true saints patiently are waiting for~for him to come and to receive them unto himself, that where he is, there will be for eternity, world without end.   He has not yet gather us unto himself as he has promised to do and as Paul and the other holy and true apostles promised us in their writing that we have as a faithful witness to trust in.  Eph. 1:21; 1 Thess. 4; 2 Thess. 1 and two.

4.  " the Kingdom of God."~The kingdom of God is revealed to us in a few sense in the scriptures.  The final phase of the kingdom where neither flesh or blood can enter, is what we are now waiting for, that shall be in the new heaven and earth.  Your false doctrine has eliminated that phase of God's kingdom from your corrupt system.  That phase of the kingdom of God is yet in the future.  Daniel 2:35; 7:22, 27; 1 Cor. 15. God Almighty is putting all of Christ's enemies under his feet, and when the very last enemy (death) shall be totally destroyed, then the glorious anticipated kingdom shall appear, and then we shall sit down with Abraham, Issac, and David, and with Him whom my soul loveth, Jesus, my glorious redeemer, and then shall be brought to pass that saying that Jesus said: "For they SHALL SEE GOD".... Oh bless the LORD oh my soul!

 
5. "The two major issues with the Kingdom are of timing and nature"

The major issue is being faithful with the scriptures overall, so that they will yield to us their true interpretation and for us not to force them to say what we want them to say, in order to defend our camp.

Happy22, I do not disagree that the kingdom of God is spiritual in nature, of course it is.  That's easy proven from the scriptures themselves, if we allow them to speak and not us forcing our wills and doctrines upon them.  No problem from me on this point.

As far as "Timing" goes~Jesus is ruling now over the house of David base upon Peter's words in Acts 2:22-36~specifically verses 31-36.  Agree.  And, also, this reign of Lord Jesus over the tabernacle of David, is strictly spiritual in nature~no problem concerning this point either.  But where you and bible believing, God fearing Christians will different is that we all believe in a "bodily coming of Jesus Christ to destroy this world, not just the nation of Israel, and give the kingdoms of this world to the children of God, and they shall reign forever more, without any of the generation of the wicked being mixed among them.  Your timing does not include this, but has cancelled it out of the word of God. 

6. "  Preterism to offer solid answers to those seeking questions about the Kingdom:" Only in your wishful thinking, and your desire to cause the simple to follow your corruption of the word of God.  You and your cohorts have stamped so much of the word of God "fulfilled in 70 A.D.!"  Even to a point that you have no bodily resurrection and no revelation coming of Jesus Christ, and I will add this:  your system removes all of the warnings of the scriptures to God's people concerning the great falling away and the revealing of the man of sin/antichrist/abomination of desolation that is spoken of several times in Daniel, Matthew 24, 2 Thess. 2; 2 Timothy 3-4:5; and Revelation.  I ask this question: WHO WOULD WANT THOSE WARNINGS REMOVED OR DENIED?  So as, to leave God's children unprepared for the evil days of the latter days of this world!  Men like you are being used to leave God's children in darkness and a easy prey to not be prepared in the mist of the great tribulation that is coming, yea in now at hand.  70 A.D. was not the great tribulation period spoken of by Jesus Christ, but your position teaches that lie, one of many.

I am going to stop, but do not mind for one second to finish answering the other points.  Maybe time will allow me to do so later.   Nothing that I have not dealt with many times before.

RB

 The judgement already happened.  In Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus said he would come with his angels, in glory, reward every man according to his works, and some standing there at the time he spoke those words would not die until they saw him coming. It is at best a questionable hermeneutic that arbitrarily divides verses 27-28; but this is exactly what most commentators do. There is no contextual basis for this however. The reader will notice that we have here the coming of the Lord. It is the coming to judge "every man"! And it would happen before that generation would pass away. Full corroboration of this is to be found in Revelation 22:12 where Jesus said: "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give to every man according as his work shall be". Jesus quotes his own promise in Matthew 16 and states in no uncertain terms that his coming to judge was at hand. The reader will also observe that this is the judgment of every man. It is therefore the "universal judgment" but it was imminent when John wrote!

     Peter also believed that the judgment was at hand. He said Jesus was "ready to judge the living and the dead", 4:5. He insisted "the end of all things is at hand", 4:7; and stated "the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God", 4:17. Surely the judgment of the "living and the dead" and the "end of all things" qualifies as "universal judgment". This being true, how can the imminence of the passage be ignored/denied?

     James also believed judgment to be imminent. In James 5:7-9 he urged his readers to be patient "until the coming of the Lord"; he promised them "the coming of the Lord is at hand"; and said "the Judge stands at the door".

 He returned in clouds of judgment just like He said He would, and just like the OT prophets always spoke of God’s visitation (riding a swift cloud in judgment upon the enemies of His people). Those who understood the issue of God’s kingdom perceived God’s presence in those events at 70 AD, to judge the enemies (the unrepentant Jews) and vindicate the righteous (Christians).

The New Heavens Isaiah 65:17 are in the afterlife

 

     
anything