Author Topic: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal  (Read 8328 times)

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raggthyme

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #105 on: February 05, 2012, 10:49:10 AM »


Standard Preterism on the other hand teaches that the soul was created mortal and went down to hades (the grave) at death, But when Jesus returned in ad70 all the souls of God's people that were in hades were raised up and immortalized and given their body from heaven. From that point onward the souls of God's people are immortal and do not go down to hades (the grave). They go straight yo be with the Lord in their immortal body from heaven.

My soul is immortal NOW. Before ad70 it was not. But it's not yet been dressed with its immortal cllothes. This is my hope.


 ::amen!::

This is why I believe Jesus said "he who lives and believes in me will never die." We will put off these clothes and put on the new, but we will never die like the saints prior to 70 ad, who imo were the ones Jesus spoke of when he said "he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live..." Believers go straight to heaven now.

But I have a little question about this.. Paul was living prior to 70ad and would have been included in the number who would be resurrected from hades, so why would he then say he was hard pressed about whether to stay with them or to be with the Lord saying "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"? I thought this was only true at the resurrection...

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #106 on: February 05, 2012, 11:14:44 AM »


Standard Preterism on the other hand teaches that the soul was created mortal and went down to hades (the grave) at death, But when Jesus returned in ad70 all the souls of God's people that were in hades were raised up and immortalized and given their body from heaven. From that point onward the souls of God's people are immortal and do not go down to hades (the grave). They go straight yo be with the Lord in their immortal body from heaven.

My soul is immortal NOW. Before ad70 it was not. But it's not yet been dressed with its immortal cllothes. This is my hope.


 ::amen!::

This is why I believe Jesus said "he who lives and believes in me will never die." We will put off these clothes and put on the new, but we will never die like the saints prior to 70 ad, who imo were the ones Jesus spoke of when he said "he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live..." Believers go straight to heaven now.

But I have a little question about this.. Paul was living prior to 70ad and would have been included in the number who would be resurrected from hades, so why would he then say he was hard pressed about whether to stay with them or to be with the Lord saying "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"? I thought this was only true at the resurrection...

Hi Raggthyme,

There is a use of the present tense verb called the tendential present. This present tense verb is often used to indicate a near future event. For instance, Jesus said that the Son of Man "is glorified" in the present even though it was not yet. It was very near.

Paul was using the present verb in this sense. He said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord because it was very near to becoming the reality. Note that he said that we cannot be found "naked." So to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in the body from heaven, that is, our immortal body.

Read the context beginning with 4:16-5:5. It is clear that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in our immortal body. We must ALWAYS be clothed.

thinker

raggthyme

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #107 on: February 05, 2012, 02:46:18 PM »


Standard Preterism on the other hand teaches that the soul was created mortal and went down to hades (the grave) at death, But when Jesus returned in ad70 all the souls of God's people that were in hades were raised up and immortalized and given their body from heaven. From that point onward the souls of God's people are immortal and do not go down to hades (the grave). They go straight yo be with the Lord in their immortal body from heaven.

My soul is immortal NOW. Before ad70 it was not. But it's not yet been dressed with its immortal cllothes. This is my hope.


 ::amen!::

This is why I believe Jesus said "he who lives and believes in me will never die." We will put off these clothes and put on the new, but we will never die like the saints prior to 70 ad, who imo were the ones Jesus spoke of when he said "he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live..." Believers go straight to heaven now.

But I have a little question about this.. Paul was living prior to 70ad and would have been included in the number who would be resurrected from hades, so why would he then say he was hard pressed about whether to stay with them or to be with the Lord saying "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"? I thought this was only true at the resurrection...

Hi Raggthyme,

There is a use of the present tense verb called the tendential present. This present tense verb is often used to indicate a near future event. For instance, Jesus said that the Son of Man "is glorified" in the present even though it was not yet. It was very near.

Paul was using the present verb in this sense. He said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord because it was very near to becoming the reality. Note that he said that we cannot be found "naked." So to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in the body from heaven, that is, our immortal body.

Read the context beginning with 4:16-5:5. It is clear that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in our immortal body. We must ALWAYS be clothed.

thinker

Thank you for the clarification.

daq

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #108 on: February 05, 2012, 06:09:22 PM »


Standard Preterism on the other hand teaches that the soul was created mortal and went down to hades (the grave) at death, But when Jesus returned in ad70 all the souls of God's people that were in hades were raised up and immortalized and given their body from heaven. From that point onward the souls of God's people are immortal and do not go down to hades (the grave). They go straight yo be with the Lord in their immortal body from heaven.

My soul is immortal NOW. Before ad70 it was not. But it's not yet been dressed with its immortal cllothes. This is my hope.


 ::amen!::

This is why I believe Jesus said "he who lives and believes in me will never die." We will put off these clothes and put on the new, but we will never die like the saints prior to 70 ad, who imo were the ones Jesus spoke of when he said "he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live..." Believers go straight to heaven now.

But I have a little question about this.. Paul was living prior to 70ad and would have been included in the number who would be resurrected from hades, so why would he then say he was hard pressed about whether to stay with them or to be with the Lord saying "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"? I thought this was only true at the resurrection...

Hi Raggthyme,

There is a use of the present tense verb called the tendential present. This present tense verb is often used to indicate a near future event. For instance, Jesus said that the Son of Man "is glorified" in the present even though it was not yet. It was very near.

Paul was using the present verb in this sense. He said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord because it was very near to becoming the reality. Note that he said that we cannot be found "naked." So to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in the body from heaven, that is, our immortal body.

Read the context beginning with 4:16-5:5. It is clear that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in our immortal body. We must ALWAYS be clothed.

thinker

Paul stated it because the kingdom officially commenced in Acts 2 at Pentecost and not 70AD. Yeshua was received up in the very same day that Noah exited the Ark and offered up the sweet smelling savour of the SMOKE of the burnt offering to YHWH.

John 7:7-39 YGB (Young's)
37. And in the last, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, 'If any one doth thirst, let him come unto me and drink;
38. he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;'
39. and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


The date is 27 Iyyar ~

Genesis 8:14-22 KJV
14. And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.
15. And God spake unto Noah, saying,
16. Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.
17. Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
18. And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:
19. Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
20. And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
22. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

Acts 1:1-3 KJV
1. The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2. Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3. To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:


Those Forty Days run from the First Fruits Wave Sheaf Offering, (16 Nisan in that year, 30CE) until 27 Iyyar which falls 9 days before Pentecost. Yeshua is the Wave Sheaf Offering: For no one is allowed to partake of the new harvest until the Wave Sheaf is offered up unto YHWH on the morrow after the Shabbat of Unleavened Bread, (which Shabbat of that year was an High Shabbat weekly Saturday). The Kingdom commenced enforce at Pentecost, Acts 2.

Luke 19:11-20 KJV
11. And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

Each in his appointed times ...
  ::smile::

Offline WarriorUvChrist

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #109 on: February 14, 2012, 09:35:19 AM »
To our Futurist friends,

Here is CONCLUSIVE evidence that the Revelation is not literal. First, the opening statement of the book CLEARLY says that that Christ gave the Revelation through His messenger in SYMBOLS. It says that Jesus "SIGNIFIED" it through His messenger (vs. 1). I have said this many times here.

Second, I offer you one of several IRREFUTABLE examples that show that the Revelation cannot be literal.

The book says that Christ will judge by thrusting His sickle and sitting on a white cloud (14:14-16). This is the judgment at the end of the age.

The book also says that Christ will judge sitting on a white horse with a sharp sword in His mouth. This is also the judgment at the end of the age.


These visions CANNOT be taken literally. Christ cannot literally judge sitting on a cloud and on a horse at the same time.

Note that He is not on the earth in either vision. He is sitting "on a cloud" thrusting His sickle and sitting on a horse "in heaven" (the sky).

In both visions the judgment does NOT take place on the earth.

Jesus said that they would see the SIGN of the Son of Man "IN THE SKY" (Matthew 24:30).

Read it and weep our Futurist friends!

thinker



So Jesus has already come to gather his elect from John's time in 70 A.D.? -like you said when John wrote Revelations

So God & Jesus left US here to keep going through the evil things from Satan that you said was bound in chains from the Old Testement?

So how can God throw Satan in chains & hell-Lake of Fire too? Are there 2 Satans?


I really hope some of you don't listen to this guy!

« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 02:31:18 AM by WarriorUvChrist »

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #109 on: February 14, 2012, 09:35:19 AM »



Offline Revealer

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #110 on: February 21, 2012, 03:16:59 AM »
It's inadvisable to say that none of it is literal because much of it is. There is a literal Mystery Babylon, literal Two Witnesses, a literal 144,000, a literal beast, etc...

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #111 on: February 23, 2012, 02:19:16 PM »
It's inadvisable to say that none of it is literal because much of it is. There is a literal Mystery Babylon, literal Two Witnesses, a literal 144,000, a literal beast, etc...

The 144,000 is NOT literal. John HEARD that number but SAW a "great multitude which no man can number." What John SAW was the interpretation of what he heard.

thinker

inthenow

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #112 on: February 23, 2012, 02:46:52 PM »
Obviously two diffrent groups, John wouldn't say 144000, 12000 from each tribe, and then say a great multitude which no man can number concerning the same group of people.
It's only common sense.

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #113 on: February 23, 2012, 03:03:57 PM »
Obviously two diffrent groups, John wouldn't say 144000, 12000 from each tribe, and then say a great multitude which no man can number concerning the same group of people.
It's only common sense.

They are NOT two groups. John HEARD the Lion of the Tribe of Judah be announced. But he SAW the Lamb that was slain. Therefore, the Lion of the tribe of Judah and the Lamb that was slain are one and the same.

John HEARD the number 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel. But he SAW a great number which no man could number from all nations of men. So what John heard and what he saw are one and the same.

John HEARD the Lamb's wife be announded. But he SAW the New Jerusalem descend from heaven as a bride adorned for her husband. The Wife and the New Jerusalem are one and the same.

In the Revelation the things John SAW are the interpretation of the things he HEARD.

thinker

inthenow

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #114 on: February 23, 2012, 03:36:06 PM »
Rev 7:8  Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


John saw the 144000 sealed, then said "after this I beheld lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues"
Plainly seperate groups of people, the second group is those raptured.

Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


John didn't know who this group was, the angel told him, John knew who the 144000 were, he witnessed their being sealed.

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #115 on: February 23, 2012, 05:08:47 PM »
Rev 7:8  Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


John saw the 144000 sealed, then said "after this I beheld lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues"
Plainly seperate groups of people, the second group is those raptured.

Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


John didn't know who this group was, the angel told him, John knew who the 144000 were, he witnessed their being sealed.

They're NOT two separate groups of people.

First, it says nothing about a rapture of those which you call the second group. It says that they "are coming" out of the great tribulation. John used present participles indicating that it was happening THEN as they were martyred. They were coming out of the tribulation in John's time through martyrdom!

Second, the Bride of Christ which you say is 'raptured' before the tribulation has only the names of the twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel written upon Her. Therefore, if the 144,000 from the twelve tribes and the great multitude from all nations are not one and the same, then only the 144,000 from the twelve tribes will be 'raptured' because ONLY their names are written on the Lamb's Wife. Furthermore, if they are not one and the same, then ONLY the twelve tribes are the Lamb's wife. So where does that leave you?

This poses an insurmountable problem for your silly notion of the rapture.

thinker





Offline fenton

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #116 on: February 23, 2012, 05:23:11 PM »
 ::beatingdeadhorse::

inthenow

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #117 on: February 23, 2012, 08:53:50 PM »
 ::beatingdeadhorse::

 ::smile:: Absolutely.

Offline fenton

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #118 on: February 23, 2012, 09:02:30 PM »
Quote from: inthenow link=topic=61209.msg1054673553#msg1054673553 date=1


330055630
::beatingdeadhorse::
 
 ::smile:: Absolutely

Spurs won't even work -   rofl

Offline WarriorUvChrist

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #119 on: February 29, 2012, 02:28:27 AM »


If you are sitting on a boat in a river, you are both on the water and on a boat.

Regards,
AsAChild



LOL...HILARIOUS! That has got to be the most literal & funniest comeback that I could ever hear!
Good one!  rofl

This man uses all these details when he spits out scripture but didn't see where he points out in Rev.14:14 where it says
One (LIKE) the Son of Man NOT THEE SON OF MAN/Jesus! This man doesn't understand either that Christ will help Michael & the 10,000 angels throw those who are with the beast(kings & armies) who took the mark & worshiped his image along with the false prophet & the beast into the Lake of Fire(Rev. 19:19 & 20) & not into some winepress of the wrath of God(Rev.14:19)!

Man this guy is a ::beatingdeadhorse::


Regards also there Mr. thinker,looks like i'm not the only one you have problems with?!?
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 02:47:15 AM by WarriorUvChrist »