Author Topic: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal  (Read 9446 times)

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raggthyme

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #105 on: Sun Feb 05, 2012 - 11:49:10 »


Standard Preterism on the other hand teaches that the soul was created mortal and went down to hades (the grave) at death, But when Jesus returned in ad70 all the souls of God's people that were in hades were raised up and immortalized and given their body from heaven. From that point onward the souls of God's people are immortal and do not go down to hades (the grave). They go straight yo be with the Lord in their immortal body from heaven.

My soul is immortal NOW. Before ad70 it was not. But it's not yet been dressed with its immortal cllothes. This is my hope.


 ::amen!::

This is why I believe Jesus said "he who lives and believes in me will never die." We will put off these clothes and put on the new, but we will never die like the saints prior to 70 ad, who imo were the ones Jesus spoke of when he said "he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live..." Believers go straight to heaven now.

But I have a little question about this.. Paul was living prior to 70ad and would have been included in the number who would be resurrected from hades, so why would he then say he was hard pressed about whether to stay with them or to be with the Lord saying "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"? I thought this was only true at the resurrection...

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #106 on: Sun Feb 05, 2012 - 12:14:44 »


Standard Preterism on the other hand teaches that the soul was created mortal and went down to hades (the grave) at death, But when Jesus returned in ad70 all the souls of God's people that were in hades were raised up and immortalized and given their body from heaven. From that point onward the souls of God's people are immortal and do not go down to hades (the grave). They go straight yo be with the Lord in their immortal body from heaven.

My soul is immortal NOW. Before ad70 it was not. But it's not yet been dressed with its immortal cllothes. This is my hope.


 ::amen!::

This is why I believe Jesus said "he who lives and believes in me will never die." We will put off these clothes and put on the new, but we will never die like the saints prior to 70 ad, who imo were the ones Jesus spoke of when he said "he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live..." Believers go straight to heaven now.

But I have a little question about this.. Paul was living prior to 70ad and would have been included in the number who would be resurrected from hades, so why would he then say he was hard pressed about whether to stay with them or to be with the Lord saying "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"? I thought this was only true at the resurrection...

Hi Raggthyme,

There is a use of the present tense verb called the tendential present. This present tense verb is often used to indicate a near future event. For instance, Jesus said that the Son of Man "is glorified" in the present even though it was not yet. It was very near.

Paul was using the present verb in this sense. He said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord because it was very near to becoming the reality. Note that he said that we cannot be found "naked." So to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in the body from heaven, that is, our immortal body.

Read the context beginning with 4:16-5:5. It is clear that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in our immortal body. We must ALWAYS be clothed.

thinker

raggthyme

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #107 on: Sun Feb 05, 2012 - 15:46:18 »


Standard Preterism on the other hand teaches that the soul was created mortal and went down to hades (the grave) at death, But when Jesus returned in ad70 all the souls of God's people that were in hades were raised up and immortalized and given their body from heaven. From that point onward the souls of God's people are immortal and do not go down to hades (the grave). They go straight yo be with the Lord in their immortal body from heaven.

My soul is immortal NOW. Before ad70 it was not. But it's not yet been dressed with its immortal cllothes. This is my hope.


 ::amen!::

This is why I believe Jesus said "he who lives and believes in me will never die." We will put off these clothes and put on the new, but we will never die like the saints prior to 70 ad, who imo were the ones Jesus spoke of when he said "he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live..." Believers go straight to heaven now.

But I have a little question about this.. Paul was living prior to 70ad and would have been included in the number who would be resurrected from hades, so why would he then say he was hard pressed about whether to stay with them or to be with the Lord saying "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"? I thought this was only true at the resurrection...

Hi Raggthyme,

There is a use of the present tense verb called the tendential present. This present tense verb is often used to indicate a near future event. For instance, Jesus said that the Son of Man "is glorified" in the present even though it was not yet. It was very near.

Paul was using the present verb in this sense. He said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord because it was very near to becoming the reality. Note that he said that we cannot be found "naked." So to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in the body from heaven, that is, our immortal body.

Read the context beginning with 4:16-5:5. It is clear that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in our immortal body. We must ALWAYS be clothed.

thinker

Thank you for the clarification.

daq

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #108 on: Sun Feb 05, 2012 - 19:09:22 »


Standard Preterism on the other hand teaches that the soul was created mortal and went down to hades (the grave) at death, But when Jesus returned in ad70 all the souls of God's people that were in hades were raised up and immortalized and given their body from heaven. From that point onward the souls of God's people are immortal and do not go down to hades (the grave). They go straight yo be with the Lord in their immortal body from heaven.

My soul is immortal NOW. Before ad70 it was not. But it's not yet been dressed with its immortal cllothes. This is my hope.


 ::amen!::

This is why I believe Jesus said "he who lives and believes in me will never die." We will put off these clothes and put on the new, but we will never die like the saints prior to 70 ad, who imo were the ones Jesus spoke of when he said "he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live..." Believers go straight to heaven now.

But I have a little question about this.. Paul was living prior to 70ad and would have been included in the number who would be resurrected from hades, so why would he then say he was hard pressed about whether to stay with them or to be with the Lord saying "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"? I thought this was only true at the resurrection...

Hi Raggthyme,

There is a use of the present tense verb called the tendential present. This present tense verb is often used to indicate a near future event. For instance, Jesus said that the Son of Man "is glorified" in the present even though it was not yet. It was very near.

Paul was using the present verb in this sense. He said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord because it was very near to becoming the reality. Note that he said that we cannot be found "naked." So to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in the body from heaven, that is, our immortal body.

Read the context beginning with 4:16-5:5. It is clear that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in our immortal body. We must ALWAYS be clothed.

thinker

Paul stated it because the kingdom officially commenced in Acts 2 at Pentecost and not 70AD. Yeshua was received up in the very same day that Noah exited the Ark and offered up the sweet smelling savour of the SMOKE of the burnt offering to YHWH.

John 7:7-39 YGB (Young's)
37. And in the last, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, 'If any one doth thirst, let him come unto me and drink;
38. he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;'
39. and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


The date is 27 Iyyar ~

Genesis 8:14-22 KJV
14. And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.
15. And God spake unto Noah, saying,
16. Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.
17. Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
18. And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:
19. Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
20. And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
22. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

Acts 1:1-3 KJV
1. The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2. Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3. To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:


Those Forty Days run from the First Fruits Wave Sheaf Offering, (16 Nisan in that year, 30CE) until 27 Iyyar which falls 9 days before Pentecost. Yeshua is the Wave Sheaf Offering: For no one is allowed to partake of the new harvest until the Wave Sheaf is offered up unto YHWH on the morrow after the Shabbat of Unleavened Bread, (which Shabbat of that year was an High Shabbat weekly Saturday). The Kingdom commenced enforce at Pentecost, Acts 2.

Luke 19:11-20 KJV
11. And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

Each in his appointed times ...
  ::smile::

Offline WarriorUvChrist

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #109 on: Tue Feb 14, 2012 - 10:35:19 »
To our Futurist friends,

Here is CONCLUSIVE evidence that the Revelation is not literal. First, the opening statement of the book CLEARLY says that that Christ gave the Revelation through His messenger in SYMBOLS. It says that Jesus "SIGNIFIED" it through His messenger (vs. 1). I have said this many times here.

Second, I offer you one of several IRREFUTABLE examples that show that the Revelation cannot be literal.

The book says that Christ will judge by thrusting His sickle and sitting on a white cloud (14:14-16). This is the judgment at the end of the age.

The book also says that Christ will judge sitting on a white horse with a sharp sword in His mouth. This is also the judgment at the end of the age.


These visions CANNOT be taken literally. Christ cannot literally judge sitting on a cloud and on a horse at the same time.

Note that He is not on the earth in either vision. He is sitting "on a cloud" thrusting His sickle and sitting on a horse "in heaven" (the sky).

In both visions the judgment does NOT take place on the earth.

Jesus said that they would see the SIGN of the Son of Man "IN THE SKY" (Matthew 24:30).

Read it and weep our Futurist friends!

thinker



So Jesus has already come to gather his elect from John's time in 70 A.D.? -like you said when John wrote Revelations

So God & Jesus left US here to keep going through the evil things from Satan that you said was bound in chains from the Old Testement?

So how can God throw Satan in chains & hell-Lake of Fire too? Are there 2 Satans?


I really hope some of you don't listen to this guy!

« Last Edit: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 03:31:18 by WarriorUvChrist »

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #109 on: Tue Feb 14, 2012 - 10:35:19 »



Offline Revealer

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #110 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 04:16:59 »
It's inadvisable to say that none of it is literal because much of it is. There is a literal Mystery Babylon, literal Two Witnesses, a literal 144,000, a literal beast, etc...

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #111 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 15:19:16 »
It's inadvisable to say that none of it is literal because much of it is. There is a literal Mystery Babylon, literal Two Witnesses, a literal 144,000, a literal beast, etc...

The 144,000 is NOT literal. John HEARD that number but SAW a "great multitude which no man can number." What John SAW was the interpretation of what he heard.

thinker

inthenow

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #112 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 15:46:52 »
Obviously two diffrent groups, John wouldn't say 144000, 12000 from each tribe, and then say a great multitude which no man can number concerning the same group of people.
It's only common sense.

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #113 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 16:03:57 »
Obviously two diffrent groups, John wouldn't say 144000, 12000 from each tribe, and then say a great multitude which no man can number concerning the same group of people.
It's only common sense.

They are NOT two groups. John HEARD the Lion of the Tribe of Judah be announced. But he SAW the Lamb that was slain. Therefore, the Lion of the tribe of Judah and the Lamb that was slain are one and the same.

John HEARD the number 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel. But he SAW a great number which no man could number from all nations of men. So what John heard and what he saw are one and the same.

John HEARD the Lamb's wife be announded. But he SAW the New Jerusalem descend from heaven as a bride adorned for her husband. The Wife and the New Jerusalem are one and the same.

In the Revelation the things John SAW are the interpretation of the things he HEARD.

thinker

inthenow

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #114 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 16:36:06 »
Rev 7:8  Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


John saw the 144000 sealed, then said "after this I beheld lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues"
Plainly seperate groups of people, the second group is those raptured.

Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


John didn't know who this group was, the angel told him, John knew who the 144000 were, he witnessed their being sealed.

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #115 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 18:08:47 »
Rev 7:8  Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:9  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


John saw the 144000 sealed, then said "after this I beheld lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues"
Plainly seperate groups of people, the second group is those raptured.

Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


John didn't know who this group was, the angel told him, John knew who the 144000 were, he witnessed their being sealed.

They're NOT two separate groups of people.

First, it says nothing about a rapture of those which you call the second group. It says that they "are coming" out of the great tribulation. John used present participles indicating that it was happening THEN as they were martyred. They were coming out of the tribulation in John's time through martyrdom!

Second, the Bride of Christ which you say is 'raptured' before the tribulation has only the names of the twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel written upon Her. Therefore, if the 144,000 from the twelve tribes and the great multitude from all nations are not one and the same, then only the 144,000 from the twelve tribes will be 'raptured' because ONLY their names are written on the Lamb's Wife. Furthermore, if they are not one and the same, then ONLY the twelve tribes are the Lamb's wife. So where does that leave you?

This poses an insurmountable problem for your silly notion of the rapture.

thinker





Offline fenton

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #116 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 18:23:11 »
 ::beatingdeadhorse::

inthenow

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #117 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 21:53:50 »
 ::beatingdeadhorse::

 ::smile:: Absolutely.

Offline fenton

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #118 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 22:02:30 »
Quote from: inthenow link=topic=61209.msg1054673553#msg1054673553 date=1


330055630
::beatingdeadhorse::
 
 ::smile:: Absolutely

Spurs won't even work -   rofl

Offline WarriorUvChrist

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #119 on: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 03:28:27 »


If you are sitting on a boat in a river, you are both on the water and on a boat.

Regards,
AsAChild



LOL...HILARIOUS! That has got to be the most literal & funniest comeback that I could ever hear!
Good one!  rofl

This man uses all these details when he spits out scripture but didn't see where he points out in Rev.14:14 where it says
One (LIKE) the Son of Man NOT THEE SON OF MAN/Jesus! This man doesn't understand either that Christ will help Michael & the 10,000 angels throw those who are with the beast(kings & armies) who took the mark & worshiped his image along with the false prophet & the beast into the Lake of Fire(Rev. 19:19 & 20) & not into some winepress of the wrath of God(Rev.14:19)!

Man this guy is a ::beatingdeadhorse::


Regards also there Mr. thinker,looks like i'm not the only one you have problems with?!?
« Last Edit: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 03:47:15 by WarriorUvChrist »

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #120 on: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 15:47:58 »
Warrior said:
Quote
This man uses all these details when he spits out scripture but didn't see where he points out in Rev.14:14 where it says
One (LIKE) the Son of Man NOT THEE SON OF MAN/Jesus!This man doesn't understand either that Christ will help Michael & the 10,000 angels throw those who are with the beast(kings & armies) who took the mark & worshiped his image along with the false prophet & the beast into the Lake of Fire(Rev. 19:19 & 20) & not into some winepress of the wrath of God(Rev.14:19)!



First, the word "homoios" means "resembling." John saw one who resembled the Son of Man because He was the Son of Man.

Second, the Son of Man was to thrust His sickle to reap the harvest because the "earth is RIPE."

Jesus said that the harvest was READY,

"The fields are white READY TO HARVEST" (John 4:35).

Furthermore, Jesus said to not say that the harvest is future:

" Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are ALREADY white for harvest! John 4:35 

Third, Jesus said that the "angels" of the harvest were MEN. The word "angel" simply means "messenger" whether spirits or men. The reapers were to be men:

"Then He said to His disciples, 'The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. 38 Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.' "

Fourth, the harvest was the judgment and Jesus said that the judgment was NOW.

"NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this world cast out."



Warrior is the blind leading the blind.



thinker


Offline WarriorUvChrist

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #121 on: Thu Mar 01, 2012 - 18:38:00 »
Warrior said:
Quote
This man uses all these details when he spits out scripture but didn't see where he points out in Rev.14:14 where it says
One (LIKE) the Son of Man NOT THEE SON OF MAN/Jesus!This man doesn't understand either that Christ will help Michael & the 10,000 angels throw those who are with the beast(kings & armies) who took the mark & worshiped his image along with the false prophet & the beast into the Lake of Fire(Rev. 19:19 & 20) & not into some winepress of the wrath of God(Rev.14:19)!




thinker




You going to say something to the other members that just dogged you out from this post! No because they even just ripped you but you only have problems with new members apparantly! You don't like the new guy on the block that stands up to you & knows you're full of it! Who's the blind leading the blind when you don't look or read the Bible or Revelations right! You say that Christians or you shouldn't read Revelations LITERALLY but you read any other Book in the Bible LITERALLY...you make alot of sense!

Touche' or like AsAChild said Regards!
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 01, 2012 - 20:59:55 by WarriorUvChrist »

Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #122 on: Thu Mar 01, 2012 - 19:58:10 »
To our Futurist friends,

Here is CONCLUSIVE evidence that the Revelation is not literal. First, the opening statement of the book CLEARLY says that that Christ gave the Revelation through His messenger in SYMBOLS. It says that Jesus "SIGNIFIED" it through His messenger (vs. 1). I have said this many times here.

Second, I offer you one of several IRREFUTABLE examples that show that the Revelation cannot be literal.

The book says that Christ will judge by thrusting His sickle and sitting on a white cloud (14:14-16). This is the judgment at the end of the age.

The book also says that Christ will judge sitting on a white horse with a sharp sword in His mouth. This is also the judgment at the end of the age.


These visions CANNOT be taken literally. Christ cannot literally judge sitting on a cloud and on a horse at the same time.

Note that He is not on the earth in either vision. He is sitting "on a cloud" thrusting His sickle and sitting on a horse "in heaven" (the sky).

In both visions the judgment does NOT take place on the earth.

Jesus said that they would see the SIGN of the Son of Man "IN THE SKY" (Matthew 24:30).

Read it and weep our Futurist friends!

thinker



This is the typical snottiness from Preterists I have encountered over the years. A condescending (you futurists are a bunch of idiots) here's mud in your eye kind of conversation... In other words the Sith have risen against their last defeat...  ::lightsabre:: Time to kick some dark side fanny...

Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #123 on: Thu Mar 01, 2012 - 20:01:02 »
Preterists must resort to this kind of "superior" looking down their noses at the futurists to infer fallibility in the futurist doctrine that ain't there... its an old Sith mind trick.  

I debated Ken Gentry and Gary DeMar on the old Crosstalk radio show on KBRT (on to different occasions) over the phone and was cut off both times by then host Rich Agozino... which means I was doing pretty good if Agozino (one of them) had to cut me off rather than risk embarrassing his guests or tarnish that which drew their blind faith... Preterism.

For you see, they will rant and rave about figures of speech in part of scripture and then hold to Gospel truth what is obviously a figure of speech. Both Gentry and DeMar balked at
 
2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Which devastates their arguments based on vague statements in the Bible like "soon, near, at hand..." Soon, near, at hand on whose calendar? To God, Moses led the Jews out of Egypt five days ago.

Anyway this character will rail on about what he found in the playpen to carry on about and draw literal conclusions from passages like "this generation will not pass till all these things are accomplished in Luke 21.

The question is, is this referring to that generation Jesus spoke to? Or to the generation the author of Luke spoke to (Luke and Acts are believed to be Paul's trial documents as investigated and gathered by Dr. Luke while Paul was in prison roughly 66 CE).

This same speech is recorded in Matthew's Gospel which includes a bigger reference to a parabolic figure (the fig tree). Jesus HAD to be speaking prophetically since even 70 CE was 40 years off at the time he was speaking. So the conditions had to include all of what he was referring to and not just a personalized interpretation.

2 Peter 1:20-21 (KJV)
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Hosea 9:10 (KJV)
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Matthew 24:29-34 (KJV)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


The tender branch is the regathering of the Jews to the Holy Land (Ezekiel 37:1-8) and the putting forth leaves is the futile religious acts and ceremonies (which Christ fulfilled in his ministry and suffering symbolized by the cursing of the fig tree Mark 13:11-23). The first religioius act of mankind was to cover the sin of their nakedness with fig leaves (Genesis 3:7 rule of first mention).

When Jesus spoke this the Temple was still standing. How could it become tender (be reinstituted) and carry out Levitical sacrificial law as some sort of sign when there was no break in that sanctuary service from 30CE to 70CE ?

« Last Edit: Thu Mar 01, 2012 - 20:26:12 by JohnDB70X7 »

Lehigh

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #124 on: Thu Mar 01, 2012 - 20:34:19 »
To our Futurist friends,

Here is CONCLUSIVE evidence that the Revelation is not literal. First, the opening statement of the book CLEARLY says that that Christ gave the Revelation through His messenger in SYMBOLS. It says that Jesus "SIGNIFIED" it through His messenger (vs. 1). I have said this many times here.

Second, I offer you one of several IRREFUTABLE examples that show that the Revelation cannot be literal.

The book says that Christ will judge by thrusting His sickle and sitting on a white cloud (14:14-16). This is the judgment at the end of the age.

The book also says that Christ will judge sitting on a white horse with a sharp sword in His mouth. This is also the judgment at the end of the age.


These visions CANNOT be taken literally. Christ cannot literally judge sitting on a cloud and on a horse at the same time.

Note that He is not on the earth in either vision. He is sitting "on a cloud" thrusting His sickle and sitting on a horse "in heaven" (the sky).

In both visions the judgment does NOT take place on the earth.

Jesus said that they would see the SIGN of the Son of Man "IN THE SKY" (Matthew 24:30).

Read it and weep our Futurist friends!

thinker



This is the typical snottiness from Preterists I have encountered over the years. A condescending (you futurists are a bunch of idiots) here's mud in your eye kind of conversation... In other words the Sith have risen against their last defeat...  ::lightsabre:: Time to kick some dark side fanny...

 Reality is that Revelation describes figuratively, events that literally took place. 
Christ pointed to the great tribulation to come upon the Jews, that contemporary, "wicked generation" clearly in the gospels. The "Revelation of Jesus Christ" was for the Jews, of which "every eye would see Him" at the right hand of Power, coming on the clouds of glory, for judgment.


Offline WarriorUvChrist

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #125 on: Thu Mar 01, 2012 - 20:57:50 »
To our Futurist friends,

Here is CONCLUSIVE evidence that the Revelation is not literal. First, the opening statement of the book CLEARLY says that that Christ gave the Revelation through His messenger in SYMBOLS. It says that Jesus "SIGNIFIED" it through His messenger (vs. 1). I have said this many times here.

Second, I offer you one of several IRREFUTABLE examples that show that the Revelation cannot be literal.

The book says that Christ will judge by thrusting His sickle and sitting on a white cloud (14:14-16). This is the judgment at the end of the age.

The book also says that Christ will judge sitting on a white horse with a sharp sword in His mouth. This is also the judgment at the end of the age.


These visions CANNOT be taken literally. Christ cannot literally judge sitting on a cloud and on a horse at the same time.

Note that He is not on the earth in either vision. He is sitting "on a cloud" thrusting His sickle and sitting on a horse "in heaven" (the sky).

In both visions the judgment does NOT take place on the earth.

Jesus said that they would see the SIGN of the Son of Man "IN THE SKY" (Matthew 24:30).

Read it and weep our Futurist friends!

thinker



This is the typical snottiness from Preterists I have encountered over the years. A condescending (you futurists are a bunch of idiots) here's mud in your eye kind of conversation... In other words the Sith have risen against their last defeat...  ::lightsabre:: Time to kick some dark side fanny...



Thank You my Christian Brother,i'm tired of this guy trying to make me look like I don't love Jesus or that i'm the one being the deceiver!

Offline WarriorUvChrist

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #126 on: Thu Mar 01, 2012 - 21:02:04 »
Preterists must resort to this kind of "superior" looking down their noses at the futurists to infer fallibility in the futurist doctrine that ain't there... its an old Sith mind trick.  

I debated Ken Gentry and Gary DeMar on the old Crosstalk radio show on KBRT (on to different occasions) over the phone and was cut off both times by then host Rich Agozino... which means I was doing pretty good if Agozino (one of them) had to cut me off rather than risk embarrassing his guests or tarnish that which drew their blind faith... Preterism.

For you see, they will rant and rave about figures of speech in part of scripture and then hold to Gospel truth what is obviously a figure of speech. Both Gentry and DeMar balked at
 
2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Which devastates their arguments based on vague statements in the Bible like "soon, near, at hand..." Soon, near, at hand on whose calendar? To God, Moses led the Jews out of Egypt five days ago.

Anyway this character will rail on about what he found in the playpen to carry on about and draw literal conclusions from passages like "this generation will not pass till all these things are accomplished in Luke 21.

The question is, is this referring to that generation Jesus spoke to? Or to the generation the author of Luke spoke to (Luke and Acts are believed to be Paul's trial documents as investigated and gathered by Dr. Luke while Paul was in prison roughly 66 CE).

This same speech is recorded in Matthew's Gospel which includes a bigger reference to a parabolic figure (the fig tree). Jesus HAD to be speaking prophetically since even 70 CE was 40 years off at the time he was speaking. So the conditions had to include all of what he was referring to and not just a personalized interpretation.

2 Peter 1:20-21 (KJV)
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Hosea 9:10 (KJV)
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Matthew 24:29-34 (KJV)
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


The tender branch is the regathering of the Jews to the Holy Land (Ezekiel 37:1-8) and the putting forth leaves is the futile religious acts and ceremonies (which Christ fulfilled in his ministry and suffering symbolized by the cursing of the fig tree Mark 13:11-23). The first religioius act of mankind was to cover the sin of their nakedness with fig leaves (Genesis 3:7 rule of first mention).

When Jesus spoke this the Temple was still standing. How could it become tender (be reinstituted) and carry out Levitical sacrificial law as some sort of sign when there was no break in that sanctuary service from 30CE to 70CE ?




Thank You again friend! I've added manna to you on the 1st one & will add to this one when they allow me to!

inthenow

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #127 on: Thu Mar 01, 2012 - 23:20:35 »
To our Futurist friends,

Here is CONCLUSIVE evidence that the Revelation is not literal. First, the opening statement of the book CLEARLY says that that Christ gave the Revelation through His messenger in SYMBOLS. It says that Jesus "SIGNIFIED" it through His messenger (vs. 1). I have said this many times here.

Second, I offer you one of several IRREFUTABLE examples that show that the Revelation cannot be literal.

The book says that Christ will judge by thrusting His sickle and sitting on a white cloud (14:14-16). This is the judgment at the end of the age.

The book also says that Christ will judge sitting on a white horse with a sharp sword in His mouth. This is also the judgment at the end of the age.


These visions CANNOT be taken literally. Christ cannot literally judge sitting on a cloud and on a horse at the same time.

Note that He is not on the earth in either vision. He is sitting "on a cloud" thrusting His sickle and sitting on a horse "in heaven" (the sky).

In both visions the judgment does NOT take place on the earth.

Jesus said that they would see the SIGN of the Son of Man "IN THE SKY" (Matthew 24:30).

Read it and weep our Futurist friends!

thinker



This is the typical snottiness from Preterists I have encountered over the years. A condescending (you futurists are a bunch of idiots) here's mud in your eye kind of conversation... In other words the Sith have risen against their last defeat...  ::lightsabre:: Time to kick some dark side fanny...



Thank You my Christian Brother,i'm tired of this guy trying to make me look like I don't love Jesus or that i'm the one being the deceiver!

And thethinker isn't the only preterist here like that, given time they will say all sorts of evil about you.

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #128 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 03:56:44 »
Warrior said:
Quote
This man uses all these details when he spits out scripture but didn't see where he points out in Rev.14:14 where it says
One (LIKE) the Son of Man NOT THEE SON OF MAN/Jesus!This man doesn't understand either that Christ will help Michael & the 10,000 angels throw those who are with the beast(kings & armies) who took the mark & worshiped his image along with the false prophet & the beast into the Lake of Fire(Rev. 19:19 & 20) & not into some winepress of the wrath of God(Rev.14:19)!




thinker



Answer my post please.

thinker


You going to say something to the other members that just dogged you out from this post! No because they even just ripped you but you only have problems with new members apparantly! You don't like the new guy on the block that stands up to you & knows you're full of it! Who's the blind leading the blind when you don't look or read the Bible or Revelations right! You say that Christians or you shouldn't read Revelations LITERALLY but you read any other Book in the Bible LITERALLY...you make alot of sense!

Touche' or like AsAChild said Regards!

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #129 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 03:59:54 »
To our Futurist friends,

Here is CONCLUSIVE evidence that the Revelation is not literal. First, the opening statement of the book CLEARLY says that that Christ gave the Revelation through His messenger in SYMBOLS. It says that Jesus "SIGNIFIED" it through His messenger (vs. 1). I have said this many times here.

Second, I offer you one of several IRREFUTABLE examples that show that the Revelation cannot be literal.

The book says that Christ will judge by thrusting His sickle and sitting on a white cloud (14:14-16). This is the judgment at the end of the age.

The book also says that Christ will judge sitting on a white horse with a sharp sword in His mouth. This is also the judgment at the end of the age.


These visions CANNOT be taken literally. Christ cannot literally judge sitting on a cloud and on a horse at the same time.

Note that He is not on the earth in either vision. He is sitting "on a cloud" thrusting His sickle and sitting on a horse "in heaven" (the sky).

In both visions the judgment does NOT take place on the earth.

Jesus said that they would see the SIGN of the Son of Man "IN THE SKY" (Matthew 24:30).

Read it and weep our Futurist friends!

thinker



This is the typical snottiness from Preterists I have encountered over the years. A condescending (you futurists are a bunch of idiots) here's mud in your eye kind of conversation... In other words the Sith have risen against their last defeat...  ::lightsabre:: Time to kick some dark side fanny...


Hey man! Warrior claims to be a prophet of God. One can't get more "snotty" than that. I'm just trying to bring him back down to earth.

thinker

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #130 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 04:13:07 »
Johndbx wrote:
Quote
2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Which devastates their arguments based on vague statements in the Bible like "soon, near, at hand..." Soon, near, at hand on whose calendar? To God, Moses led the Jews out of Egypt five days ago.

Therefore, to God the milllennium is only "one day" and I don't have to take it literally because TO GOD a thousand years is only one day.

Peter did NOT say that a thousand years IS one day or that one day IS a thousand years. He said that a thousand years is AS one day and that one day is AS a thousand years.

Furthermore, in Ezekiel the people were explicitly told by God that "at hand" means "in YOUR days" (Ezekiel 12:21-28). Show us when the meaning of the term "at hand" changed. Jesus said, "he who betrays me is AT HAND."

You are totally butchering up the scriptures!

 If you have applied Peter's statement corrrectly, then the heavens and the earth were created in six thousand years because one day IS a thousand years TO GOD. The milllennium is only one day because a thousand years is one day to God.

If you have applied Peter correctly, then I don't have to take anything in the Bible literally.


thinker

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #131 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 04:18:41 »
Johndbx said:
Quote
Preterists must resort to this kind of "superior" looking down their noses at the futurists to infer fallibility in the futurist doctrine that ain't there... its an old Sith mind trick.

Again I say that Warrior claims to be a prophet of God. No one could have a superiority complex more than one who claims to be a prophet of God. I'm just trying to keep him in check.

thinker

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #132 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 04:22:20 »
Warrior said:
Quote
Thank You my Christian Brother,i'm tired of this guy trying to make me look like I don't love Jesus or that i'm the one being the deceiver!

inthenow replied:
Quote
And thethinker isn't the only preterist here like that, given time they will say all sorts of evil about you.

What have I said about Warriior that is "evil"? Warrior claims to be a prophet of God and therefore he should expect harsh criticism for it.

thinker














Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #133 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 18:49:52 »
Calm down.

There was evening and there was morning. The first day. The literal 24 hour day was being spoken of in creation. Not the 1000 year days as you claim. Once again, your knowledge of scripture is showing itself to be limited.

Soon near at hand to God can be many thousands of years to us. You cannot shake this truth, thinker... you just think you can.

2 Peter 3:8 (NKJV)
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Quoting the scriptures is not butchering them. Misinterpreting the scriptures as Preterists do IS butchering them.


Johndbx wrote:
Quote
2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Which devastates their arguments based on vague statements in the Bible like "soon, near, at hand..." Soon, near, at hand on whose calendar? To God, Moses led the Jews out of Egypt five days ago.

Therefore, to God the milllennium is only "one day" and I don't have to take it literally because TO GOD a thousand years is only one day.

Peter did NOT say that a thousand years IS one day or that one day IS a thousand years. He said that a thousand years is AS one day and that one day is AS a thousand years.

Furthermore, in Ezekiel the people were explicitly told by God that "at hand" means "in YOUR days" (Ezekiel 12:21-28). Show us when the meaning of the term "at hand" changed. Jesus said, "he who betrays me is AT HAND."

You are totally butchering up the scriptures!

 If you have applied Peter's statement corrrectly, then the heavens and the earth were created in six thousand years because one day IS a thousand years TO GOD. The milllennium is only one day because a thousand years is one day to God.

If you have applied Peter correctly, then I don't have to take anything in the Bible literally.


thinker

Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #134 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 18:52:17 »

If you have applied Peter correctly, then I don't have to take anything in the Bible literally.[/color]

thinker

You have much to learn...

I have applied it correctly and the days of creation I showed you the context how they are not thousand year days.

Is there anything else you need to learn about the Bible?

Lehigh

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #135 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 21:17:13 »

If you have applied Peter correctly, then I don't have to take anything in the Bible literally.[/color]

thinker

You have much to learn...

I have applied it correctly and the days of creation I showed you the context how they are not thousand year days.

Is there anything else you need to learn about the Bible?

Yes, I'd like to know, where does it say "arrogance" is a gift of the Spirit?

inthenow

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #136 on: Sat Mar 03, 2012 - 02:31:53 »
Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Yeah 24 hours, 1000 years would be a long time between sun rises.

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #137 on: Sun Mar 04, 2012 - 04:23:57 »

If you have applied Peter correctly, then I don't have to take anything in the Bible literally.[/color]

thinker

You have much to learn...

I have applied it correctly and the days of creation I showed you the context how they are not thousand year days.

Is there anything else you need to learn about the Bible?

And I showed you that "at hand" in Ezekiel 12:21-28 means "in YOUR days." Then I showed you that Jesus used the expression saying, "He who betrays Me is AT HAND." Then I asked you to show from scripture when this meaning of "at hand" changed. Where in scripture did "at hand" start to mean what you say it means?

You said that Peter said that one day to the Lord IS a thousand years. He did NOT say that. He said that one day to the Lord is AS a thousand years. Therefore, the six days of creation were AS a thousand years to the Lord but six literal days to us. Consequently, THE EXPRESSION "at hand" may be AS a very long time to the Lord but to us it means "NOW." God told Israel that "at hand" meant "in YOUR days." Jesus said, He who betrays Me is "at hand." So to GOD'S PEOPLE "at hand" means exactly what it says.

BTW, I was studying the Bible when you were still eating baby food!



thinker
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 04, 2012 - 22:32:29 by Nevertheless »

Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #138 on: Sun Mar 04, 2012 - 22:04:52 »

If you have applied Peter correctly, then I don't have to take anything in the Bible literally.[/color]

thinker

You have much to learn...

I have applied it correctly and the days of creation I showed you the context how they are not thousand year days.

Is there anything else you need to learn about the Bible?

Yes, I'd like to know, where does it say "arrogance" is a gift of the Spirit?

Just fighting fire with fire.

Of course I am sure I will see you admonishing thethinker for the arrogance of his posts beginning with the title of the OP... won't I?

Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #139 on: Sun Mar 04, 2012 - 22:09:08 »

If you have applied Peter correctly, then I don't have to take anything in the Bible literally.[/color]

thinker

You have much to learn...

I have applied it correctly and the days of creation I showed you the context how they are not thousand year days.

Is there anything else you need to learn about the Bible?

And I showed you that "at hand" in Ezekiel 12:21-28 means "in YOUR days." Then I showed you that Jesus used the expression saying, "He who betrays Me is AT HAND." Then I asked you to show from scripture when this meaning of "at hand" changed. Where in scripture did "at hand" start to mean what you say it means?

You said that Peter said that one day to the Lord IS a thousand years. He did NOT say that. He said that one day to the Lord is AS a thousand years. Therefore, the six days of creation were AS a thousand years to the Lord but six literal days to us. Consequently, THE EXPRESSION "at hand" may be AS a very long time to the Lord but to us it means "NOW." God told Israel that "at hand" meant "in YOUR days." Jesus said, He who betrays Me is "at hand." So to GOD'S PEOPLE "at hand" means exactly what it says.

BTW, I was studying the Bible when you were still eating  baby food!



thinker

I doubt that!

JohndB70X7 <---- 51 years old.
Saved age 6 (1967)
Serious student of the Bible since 1987
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 04, 2012 - 22:44:15 by JohnDB70X7 »