Author Topic: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal  (Read 9474 times)

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raggthyme

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #35 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 21:08:16 »

Like so?

Hosea 13:4-9 KJV
4. Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
5. I did know thee in the wilderness, in the land of great drought.
6. According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
7. Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
8. I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul (chestplate) of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
9. O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.

Lamentations 4:1-7 KJV
1. How is the gold become dim! how is the most fine gold changed! the stones of the sanctuary are poured out in the top of every street.
2. The precious sons of Zion, comparable to fine gold, how are they esteemed as earthen pitchers, the work of the hands of the potter!
3. Even the sea monsters draw out the breast, they give suck to their young ones: the daughter of my people is become cruel, like the ostriches in the wilderness.
4. The tongue of the sucking child cleaveth to the roof of his mouth for thirst: the young children ask bread, and no man breaketh it unto them.
5. They that did feed delicately are desolate in the streets: they that were brought up in scarlet embrace dunghills.
6. For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her.
7. Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire:


Good post daq! I never saw that in Hosea before.

inthenow

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #36 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 21:38:30 »
Rev 14:14  And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15  And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17  And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18  And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19  And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Mat_13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Are these the same harvests? Concerning the wheat and the tares, Christ tells the angels to gather the tares first to be burned, then gather the wheat into my barn.
But in rev 14 One like the Son of man reaped first so He didn't reap wheat for in Matthew the tares are reaped first, just like the angel in verse 19 this harvest by the one like the Son of man and the angel is a harvest for judgment. Ofcourse I could be wrong, cough cough ,ooh I nearly choked.


Rev 19:1  And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2  For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great wh*re, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3  And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Rev 19:4  And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Rev 19:5  And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Rev 19:6  And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7  Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8  And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9  And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Rev 19:10  And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean
.
Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17  And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18  That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21  And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

"One like Christ on the cloud and Christ on the horse". When something isn't clear then just leave it, we don't know it all, and definately don't just make it say something to fit a particular doctrine.
Not to say it is not understood by some, I think Larry explained it and I've forgotten already.


One like the Son of man reaps from the cloud.
Christ on the horse comes to the earth "Rev 19:19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army"


 







larry2

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #37 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 21:45:33 »

Hosea 13:4 KJV
Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.



And just Who is this in Hosea 13:4 to you DAQ? I ask because you also brought forth the scripture in Daniel 7:13, "As the coming of the Ancient of Days on the clouds of heaven." My KJV reads differently on this: "One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him.

Thanks.

daq

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #38 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 22:00:28 »

Like so?

Hosea 13:4-9 KJV
4. Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
5. I did know thee in the wilderness, in the land of great drought.
6. According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
7. Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
8. I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul (chestplate) of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
9. O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.

Lamentations 4:1-7 KJV
1. How is the gold become dim! how is the most fine gold changed! the stones of the sanctuary are poured out in the top of every street.
2. The precious sons of Zion, comparable to fine gold, how are they esteemed as earthen pitchers, the work of the hands of the potter!
3. Even the sea monsters draw out the breast, they give suck to their young ones: the daughter of my people is become cruel, like the ostriches in the wilderness.
4. The tongue of the sucking child cleaveth to the roof of his mouth for thirst: the young children ask bread, and no man breaketh it unto them.
5. They that did feed delicately are desolate in the streets: they that were brought up in scarlet embrace dunghills.
6. For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her.
7. Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire:


Good post daq! I never saw that in Hosea before.

Thanx raggthyme: So what does this say for those who are selling books for profit or thier minions constantly running around teaching and proclaiming that the "Beast" of Revelation 13 is Satan? Is there an outside chance they might be blaspheming? (Do not answer that).  ::smile::


Hosea 13:4 KJV
Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.



And just Who is this in Hosea 13:4 to you DAQ? I ask because you also brought forth the scripture in Daniel 7:13, "As the coming of the Ancient of Days on the clouds of heaven." My KJV reads differently on this: "One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him.

Thanks.


Hi larry2
Perhaps this board was moving a little too fast if you just now are beginning to understand what was truly said, (that tends to happen when everyone involved gets a little "hot under the collar"). However, King James and his court were not very good with Aramaic.  ::smile::

inthenow

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #39 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 22:05:57 »
inthenow:
Because some is not literal you say all is not??
Other scriptures tell what that 7 headed 10 horned beast is, there is a literal meaning to all  such symbolisms ( if that's the proper word for describing that language) and it comes from the bible not out of ones head.


daq:
Like so?

Hosea 13:4-9 KJV
4. Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
5. I did know thee in the wilderness, in the land of great drought.
6. According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
7. Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
8. I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul (chestplate) of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
9. O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.

raggthyme:
Good post daq! I never saw that in Hosea before.

Really the 7 heads and 10 horns of revelation is God?? definately not.

Rev_12:3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev_13:1  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev_17:3  So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev_17:7  And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev_17:9  And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10  And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Rev 17:11  And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Rev 17:12  And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #39 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 22:05:57 »



inthenow

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #40 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 22:32:49 »
daq;
Thanx raggthyme: So what does this say for those who are selling books for profit or thier minions constantly running around teaching and proclaiming that the "Beast" of Revelation 13 is Satan? Is there an outside chance they might be blaspheming? (Do not answer that).  Smile

The beast of revelation 13 is not God, how can that not be clear? but it is the false prophet who may also be satan the dragon, he was seen in heaven as satan chapter 12, and coming out of the sea as the false prophet chapter 13, after being cast down I would persume.

Rev_12:3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 13:1  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2  And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.




 

daq

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #41 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 22:34:27 »
Really the 7 heads and 10 horns of revelation is God?? definately not.

I never said any such thing but rather quoted the Scripture. Why must everything be a personal attack from you? The only reason you see an apparent contradiction in the Scripture is because of your flawed teradoctrine and an understanding taught to you by 19th century tradition, (not very old to be considered tradition already). There is no contradiction if you see it the way it is intended. YHWH created us and he uses our own "beasts" against us to tear open the caul-chestplate of iron because we have hearts as hard as Pharaoh's in most cases. However, it is symbolic language and is all for our own good. One cannot be supernally and spiritually "circumcised in heart" unless the chestplate is first opened and the heart removed. Ever heard of the "New Covenant"?  ::crackup:: It comes from Jeremiah 31 and is quoted as such in Hebrews 8.  ::smile::

Jeremiah 31:27-33 KJV
27. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
28. And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the Lord.
29. In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


So then, if none of this has happened to you inthenow then perhaps you are not yet truly "born from above" as per John 3 and have need of the patient endurance and faith of the saints until inthelater.  ::smile::

Offline asachild

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #42 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 22:59:13 »
Quote
thinker
The atonement was completed in ad70. Christ's intercession ended THEN. The atoning work of Christ was NOT an eternal work. The Greek 'aion' simply means "continual without interruption." Christ's atoning work was NOT interrupted by death like in the Levitical syatem. That is what is mean by His intercession having been "continual."

So, is the new covenant over?

Regards,
AsAChild

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #43 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 23:05:25 »
Quote
thinker
The atonement was completed in ad70. Christ's intercession ended THEN. The atoning work of Christ was NOT an eternal work. The Greek 'aion' simply means "continual without interruption." Christ's atoning work was NOT interrupted by death like in the Levitical syatem. That is what is mean by His intercession having been "continual."

So, is the new covenant over?

Regards,
AsAChild

The New Covenant is eternal but in Revelation it doesn't begin until the seventh trumpet is sounded.

daq

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #44 on: Wed Feb 01, 2012 - 23:42:20 »
1 Peter 2:9-10 KJV
9. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Exodus 19:5-6 KJV
5. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6. And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.


So I went to the books, and I looked, and Behold, abiding unwalled suburbs of the cities of the priests: each abiding suburb two thousand cubits to a quarter; and squared round about the four quarters of their circuits:

Numbers 18:19-23 KJV
19. All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the Lord, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it is a covenant of salt for ever before the Lord unto thee and to thy seed with thee.
20. And the Lord spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.
21. And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
22. Neither must the children of Israel henceforth come nigh the tabernacle of the congregation, lest they bear sin, and die.
23. But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.

Numbers 35:1-6 KJV
1. And the Lord spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying,
2. Command the children of Israel, that they give unto the Levites of the inheritance of their possession cities to dwell in; and ye shall give also unto the Levites suburbs for the cities round about them.
3. And the cities shall they have to dwell in; and the suburbs of them shall be for their cattle, and for their goods, and for all their beasts.
4. And the suburbs of the cities, which ye shall give unto the Levites, shall reach from the wall of the city and outward a thousand cubits round about.
5. And ye shall measure from without the city on the east side two thousand cubits, and on the south side two thousand cubits, and on the west side two thousand cubits, and on the north side two thousand cubits; and the city shall be in the midst: this shall be to them the suburbs of the cities.
6. And among the cities which ye shall give unto the Levites there shall be six cities for refuge, which ye shall appoint for the manslayer, that he may flee thither: and to them ye shall add forty and two cities.

Numbers 35:5-6 YGB (Young's Bible)
5. And ye have measured from the outside of the city, the east quarter, two thousand by the cubit, and the south quarter, two thousand by the cubit, and the west quarter, two thousand by the cubit, and the north quarter, two thousand by the cubit; and the city [is] in the midst; this is to them the suburbs of the cities.
6. 'And the cities which ye give to the Levites [are] the six cities of refuge, which ye give for the fleeing thither of the man-slayer, and besides them ye give forty and two cities;


So I went to the books, and I looked, and Behold, abiding unwalled suburbs of the cities of the priests: each abiding suburb two thousand cubits to a quarter; and squared round about the four quarters of their circuits: FORTY TWO cities of the priests with all their suburbs, and the forty two continued from a new moon to another: even month to month in all their sojourns and their goings, even month to month in all the foliage of their trees: even month to month in all the fruits of all their goods, even month to month with all their beasts in all their suburbs!

Revelation 20:4-6 KJV
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 22:1-4 KJV
1. And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the Xulon-tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4. And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.


::priest::  ::The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's th

Offline asachild

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #45 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 00:32:45 »
Quote
LightHammer
The New Covenant is eternal but in Revelation it doesn't begin until the seventh trumpet is sounded.

I'm not following you.  Are you saying that the New Covenant doesn't begin until the time of the seventh trumpet?

Regards,
AsAChild

daq

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #46 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 01:22:53 »

Like so?

Hosea 13:4-9 KJV
4. Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
5. I did know thee in the wilderness, in the land of great drought.
6. According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
7. Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
8. I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul (chestplate) of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
9. O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.

Lamentations 4:1-7 KJV
1. How is the gold become dim! how is the most fine gold changed! the stones of the sanctuary are poured out in the top of every street.
2. The precious sons of Zion, comparable to fine gold, how are they esteemed as earthen pitchers, the work of the hands of the potter!
3. Even the sea monsters draw out the breast, they give suck to their young ones: the daughter of my people is become cruel, like the ostriches in the wilderness.
4. The tongue of the sucking child cleaveth to the roof of his mouth for thirst: the young children ask bread, and no man breaketh it unto them.
5. They that did feed delicately are desolate in the streets: they that were brought up in scarlet embrace dunghills.
6. For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her.
7. Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire:


Good post daq! I never saw that in Hosea before.

Thanx raggthyme: So what does this say for those who are selling books for profit or thier minions constantly running around teaching and proclaiming that the "Beast" of Revelation 13 is Satan? Is there an outside chance they might be blaspheming? (Do not answer that).  ::smile::


Hosea 13:4 KJV
Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.



And just Who is this in Hosea 13:4 to you DAQ? I ask because you also brought forth the scripture in Daniel 7:13, "As the coming of the Ancient of Days on the clouds of heaven." My KJV reads differently on this: "One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him.

Thanks.


Hi larry2
Perhaps this board was moving a little too fast if you just now are beginning to understand what was truly said, (that tends to happen when everyone involved gets a little "hot under the collar"). However, King James and his court were not very good with Aramaic.  ::smile::

Sorry this took a bit larry2 but I do not have "prewritten materials" prepared ahead of time from which I copy and paste to the board as others seem to like to accuse me of doing, (yes, everything posted here is ulitmately from love and nothing is for sale!)  ::smile::  ::crackup::

Daniel 7:13
13.
   |2370| looking
   |1934| I was
   |2376| in visions of
   |3916| the night,
   |0718| and look,
   |5974| with
   |6050| the clouds of
   |8065| the heavens
   |1247| {one} like the Son of
   |0606| man
   |0858| coming
   |1934| [he] was,
   |5705| and until
   |6268| the Ancient
   |3118| Days
   |4291| He extends - attains - exists
   |6925| And the presence of Him
   |7127| approached - came near.


Original Strong's Ref. #4291
Romanized  mta'
Pronounced met-aw'
(Aramaic) or mtah (Aramaic) {met-aw'}; apparently corresponding to HSN4672 in the intransitive sense of being found present; to arrive, extend or happen:
KJV--come, reach.

Original Strong's Ref. #4672
Romanized  matsa'
Pronounced maw-tsaw'
a primitive root; properly, to come forth to, i.e. appear or exist; transitively, to attain, i.e. find or acquire; figuratively, to occur, meet or be present:
KJV-- + be able, befall, being, catch, X certainly, (cause to) come (on, to, to hand), deliver, be enough (cause to) find(-ing, occasion, out), get (hold upon), X have (here), be here, hit, be left, light (up-)on, meet (with), X occasion serve, (be) present, ready, speed, suffice, take hold on. #motsa' See HSN4161.

Daniel 7:13 TUA - Aramaic
13. Chazeh hweyt bchezwey leylya'. Wa'ruw -- `im-`ananey shmaya' kbar 'nash 'ateh hwah. W`ad- `atiyq yowmaya' mTah uwqdamowhiy haqrbuwhiy.

Daniel 7:13
13. Watching I was, in the night visions, and, behold, with the clouds of heaven: one like unto the Son of man; coming he was, and to the ancient days he exists, and the presence of him drew near.


Who is the Ancient of Days?

Daniel 7:9-14
9. Watching I was, till the thrones were set, and the Ancient of Days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10. A river of fire issued and came forth from before him: a thousand thousands ministered unto him, and a myriad of myriads stood before him: the court was set, and the books were opened.
11. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and the hard rain of him perished-'abad, and was given to the conflagration of the flame.
12. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for an appointment and a time.
13. Watching I was, in the night visions, and, behold, with the clouds of heaven: one like unto the Son of man; coming he was, and to the ancient days he exists, and the presence of him drew near.
14. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Revelation 1:13-14
13. And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

John 5:21-23 KJV
21. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23. That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.


YHWH is Spirit

As for Hosea 13:4 ~ YHWH 'Elohiym Yasha`

Hosea 13:4
4. Yet I am YHWH 'Eloheyka from the land of Egypt! and 'elohiym, outside of Me, not shalt thou know: for there is no Yasha` outside of me.


::smile::

inthenow

  • Guest
Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #47 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 03:42:35 »
inthenow:
Really the 7 heads and 10 horns of revelation is God?? definately not.


daq:
I never said any such thing but rather quoted the Scripture.

daq, I posted that scriptures show who the seven headed and 10 horn beast is,
 to which you replied :
Like so?
and pasted hosea 13:4-9 which shows God can be like a lion leopard and bear implying that the seven heads and ten horn beast is God.

And raggthyme agreed with you saying:
"Good post daq! I never saw that in Hosea before".


daq:
Why must everything be a personal attack from you?

Ha ha, that reply to you is a personal attack??
quote: Really the 7 heads and 10 horns of revelation is God?? definately not.

inthenow

  • Guest
Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #48 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 04:00:12 »

Sorry this took a bit larry2 but I do not have "prewritten materials" prepared ahead of time from which I copy and paste to the board as others seem to like to accuse me of doing, (yes, everything posted here is ulitmately from love and nothing is for sale!)  ::smile::  ::crackup::

Daniel 7:13
13.
   |2370| looking
   |1934| I was
   |2376| in visions of
   |3916| the night,
   |0718| and look,
   |5974| with
   |6050| the clouds of
   |8065| the heavens
   |1247| {one} like the Son of
   |0606| man
   |0858| coming
   |1934| [he] was,
   |5705| and until
   |6268| the Ancient
   |3118| Days
   |4291| He extends - attains - exists
   |6925| And the presence of Him
   |7127| approached - came near.


Original Strong's Ref. #4291
Romanized  mta'
Pronounced met-aw'
(Aramaic) or mtah (Aramaic) {met-aw'}; apparently corresponding to HSN4672 in the intransitive sense of being found present; to arrive, extend or happen:
KJV--come, reach.

Original Strong's Ref. #4672
Romanized  matsa'
Pronounced maw-tsaw'
a primitive root; properly, to come forth to, i.e. appear or exist; transitively, to attain, i.e. find or acquire; figuratively, to occur, meet or be present:
KJV-- + be able, befall, being, catch, X certainly, (cause to) come (on, to, to hand), deliver, be enough (cause to) find(-ing, occasion, out), get (hold upon), X have (here), be here, hit, be left, light (up-)on, meet (with), X occasion serve, (be) present, ready, speed, suffice, take hold on. #motsa' See HSN4161.

Daniel 7:13 TUA - Aramaic
13. Chazeh hweyt bchezwey leylya'. Wa'ruw -- `im-`ananey shmaya' kbar 'nash 'ateh hwah. W`ad- `atiyq yowmaya' mTah uwqdamowhiy haqrbuwhiy.

Daniel 7:13
13. Watching I was, in the night visions, and, behold, with the clouds of heaven: one like unto the Son of man; coming he was, and to the ancient days he exists, and the presence of him drew near.


Who is the Ancient of Days?

Daniel 7:9-14
9. Watching I was, till the thrones were set, and the Ancient of Days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10. A river of fire issued and came forth from before him: a thousand thousands ministered unto him, and a myriad of myriads stood before him: the court was set, and the books were opened.
11. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and the hard rain of him perished-'abad, and was given to the conflagration of the flame.
12. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for an appointment and a time.
13. Watching I was, in the night visions, and, behold, with the clouds of heaven: one like unto the Son of man; coming he was, and to the ancient days he exists, and the presence of him drew near.
14. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Revelation 1:13-14
13. And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

John 5:21-23 KJV
21. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23. That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.


YHWH is Spirit

As for Hosea 13:4 ~ YHWH 'Elohiym Yasha`

Hosea 13:4
4. Yet I am YHWH 'Eloheyka from the land of Egypt! and 'elohiym, outside of Me, not shalt thou know: for there is no Yasha` outside of me.


::smile::
Really , you didn't copy and paste all those scriptures and strongs refrences, the bible and strongs are not pre written, WOW  ::noworries::

raggthyme

  • Guest
Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #49 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 04:18:00 »

Like so?

Hosea 13:4-9 KJV
4. Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
5. I did know thee in the wilderness, in the land of great drought.
6. According to their pasture, so were they filled; they were filled, and their heart was exalted; therefore have they forgotten me.
7. Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
8. I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul (chestplate) of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
9. O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.

Lamentations 4:1-7 KJV
1. How is the gold become dim! how is the most fine gold changed! the stones of the sanctuary are poured out in the top of every street.
2. The precious sons of Zion, comparable to fine gold, how are they esteemed as earthen pitchers, the work of the hands of the potter!
3. Even the sea monsters draw out the breast, they give suck to their young ones: the daughter of my people is become cruel, like the ostriches in the wilderness.
4. The tongue of the sucking child cleaveth to the roof of his mouth for thirst: the young children ask bread, and no man breaketh it unto them.
5. They that did feed delicately are desolate in the streets: they that were brought up in scarlet embrace dunghills.
6. For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her.
7. Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire:


Good post daq! I never saw that in Hosea before.

Thanx raggthyme: So what does this say for those who are selling books for profit or thier minions constantly running around teaching and proclaiming that the "Beast" of Revelation 13 is Satan? Is there an outside chance they might be blaspheming? (Do not answer that).  ::smile::


Hosea 13:4 KJV
Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.



And just Who is this in Hosea 13:4 to you DAQ? I ask because you also brought forth the scripture in Daniel 7:13, "As the coming of the Ancient of Days on the clouds of heaven." My KJV reads differently on this: "One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him.

Thanks.


Hi larry2
Perhaps this board was moving a little too fast if you just now are beginning to understand what was truly said, (that tends to happen when everyone involved gets a little "hot under the collar"). However, King James and his court were not very good with Aramaic.  ::smile::

Sorry this took a bit larry2 but I do not have "prewritten materials" prepared ahead of time from which I copy and paste to the board as others seem to like to accuse me of doing, (yes, everything posted here is ulitmately from love and nothing is for sale!)  ::smile::  ::crackup::

Daniel 7:13
13.
   |2370| looking
   |1934| I was
   |2376| in visions of
   |3916| the night,
   |0718| and look,
   |5974| with
   |6050| the clouds of
   |8065| the heavens
   |1247| {one} like the Son of
   |0606| man
   |0858| coming
   |1934| [he] was,
   |5705| and until
   |6268| the Ancient
   |3118| Days
   |4291| He extends - attains - exists
   |6925| And the presence of Him
   |7127| approached - came near.


Original Strong's Ref. #4291
Romanized  mta'
Pronounced met-aw'
(Aramaic) or mtah (Aramaic) {met-aw'}; apparently corresponding to HSN4672 in the intransitive sense of being found present; to arrive, extend or happen:
KJV--come, reach.

Original Strong's Ref. #4672
Romanized  matsa'
Pronounced maw-tsaw'
a primitive root; properly, to come forth to, i.e. appear or exist; transitively, to attain, i.e. find or acquire; figuratively, to occur, meet or be present:
KJV-- + be able, befall, being, catch, X certainly, (cause to) come (on, to, to hand), deliver, be enough (cause to) find(-ing, occasion, out), get (hold upon), X have (here), be here, hit, be left, light (up-)on, meet (with), X occasion serve, (be) present, ready, speed, suffice, take hold on. #motsa' See HSN4161.

Daniel 7:13 TUA - Aramaic
13. Chazeh hweyt bchezwey leylya'. Wa'ruw -- `im-`ananey shmaya' kbar 'nash 'ateh hwah. W`ad- `atiyq yowmaya' mTah uwqdamowhiy haqrbuwhiy.

Daniel 7:13
13. Watching I was, in the night visions, and, behold, with the clouds of heaven: one like unto the Son of man; coming he was, and to the ancient days he exists, and the presence of him drew near.


Who is the Ancient of Days?

Daniel 7:9-14
9. Watching I was, till the thrones were set, and the Ancient of Days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10. A river of fire issued and came forth from before him: a thousand thousands ministered unto him, and a myriad of myriads stood before him: the court was set, and the books were opened.
11. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and the hard rain of him perished-'abad, and was given to the conflagration of the flame.
12. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for an appointment and a time.
13. Watching I was, in the night visions, and, behold, with the clouds of heaven: one like unto the Son of man; coming he was, and to the ancient days he exists, and the presence of him drew near.
14. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Revelation 1:13-14
13. And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

John 5:21-23 KJV
21. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23. That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.


YHWH is Spirit

As for Hosea 13:4 ~ YHWH 'Elohiym Yasha`

Hosea 13:4
4. Yet I am YHWH 'Eloheyka from the land of Egypt! and 'elohiym, outside of Me, not shalt thou know: for there is no Yasha` outside of me.


::smile::

Daq, I was just thinking it must take quite a bit of time to gather all the scriptures and references you use and put them all together in an orderly fashion. Quite the task! Keep it up, I enjoy seeing the word from your perspective.  ::smile::

inthenow

  • Guest
Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #50 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 04:46:13 »
daq:
Why must everything be a personal attack from you?

There was no personal attack, but near every post from you has an insult or more showing the spirit you are posting in.

quote daq: So then, if none of this has happened to you inthenow then perhaps you are not yet truly "born from above" as per John 3 and have need of the patient endurance and faith of the saints until inthelater.

This is not the way you would translate John 3 but I will do it not changing what the verses say.
 John 3 is about being completely born again in the full sense of the phrase, which happens at the faithfuls bodily redemption, the rapture.

Joh 3:1  There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2  The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

One born again - born of the spirit, is spirit.
 
Joh 3:7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

One born of the Spirit is likened to the wind which you cannot see, it comes and goes where it likes and you cannot tell where

daq

  • Guest
Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #51 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 04:53:17 »
Really , you didn't copy and paste all those scriptures and strongs refrences, the bible and strongs are not pre written, WOW  ::noworries::

Genesis 17:3-14 KJV
3. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4. As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9. And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Deuteronomy 10:16 KJV
16. Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.


Perhaps it is not what you thought it was after all ...  ::shrug::

Luke 4:25-26 KJV
25. But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
26. But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

Luke 13:6-9 KJV
6. He spake also this parable; a certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8. And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9. And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Either way you really should start thinking about that "Robe" ...
 ::smile::  ::noworries::



Daq, I was just thinking it must take quite a bit of time to gather all the scriptures and references you use and put them all together in an orderly fashion. Quite the task! Keep it up, I enjoy seeing the word from your perspective.  ::smile::

Thanx again raggthyme! And I do hope you stick around because I also enjoy your posts, but if not, that is also CLEARLY understandable.

Yeshua Bless your Bread of Life and Living Water either way!  ::smile::

inthenow

  • Guest
Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #52 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 05:14:00 »
    (*) >    < (*)

    / )           ( \         Now that's symbolic.  ::nodding::

    /"            "\   

inthenow

  • Guest
Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #53 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 05:25:03 »
Really , you didn't copy and paste all those scriptures and strongs refrences, the bible and strongs are not pre written, WOW  ::noworries::



Daq, I was just thinking it must take quite a bit of time to gather all the scriptures and references you use and put them all together in an orderly fashion. Quite the task! Keep it up, I enjoy seeing the word from your perspective.  ::smile::

Thanx again raggthyme! And I do hope you stick around because I also enjoy your posts, but if not, that is also CLEARLY understandable.

Yeshua Bless your Bread of Life and Living Water either way!  ::smile::
daq, Yeshua is the Bread of Life, and living Water is the Holy Spirit.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #54 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 06:54:31 »
Quote
LightHammer
The New Covenant is eternal but in Revelation it doesn't begin until the seventh trumpet is sounded.

I'm not following you.  Are you saying that the New Covenant doesn't begin until the time of the seventh trumpet?

Regards,
AsAChild

I'm saying the seventy trumpet sounded over 2000 years ago.

Key phrase "It is finished."

Peace

daq

  • Guest
Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #55 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 07:27:25 »
   (*) >    < (*)

    / )           ( \         Now that's symbolic.  ::nodding::

    /"            "\    


Interpreted as "birds of a feather flock together"?

Are not two tsippowr sold for a farthing? And who would buy them and for what purpose? And yet the one shall not fall to the earth without your Father.

....oooO....................
.....(....).....................
.......\.(.......Oooo......
........(_).....(....)........
...................)./..........
..................(_)..........


....oooO..................
.....(....)...................
.......\.(.......Oooo.....
........(_).....(....).......
...................)./........
..................(_)........


Perhaps the birds one sees depends upon his or her walk ~

Re: Do you have a spiritual interpretation of this photo (c:
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2011, 05:52:48 AM »



Really , you didn't copy and paste all those scriptures and strongs refrences, the bible and strongs are not pre written, WOW  ::noworries::




Daq, I was just thinking it must take quite a bit of time to gather all the scriptures and references you use and put them all together in an orderly fashion. Quite the task! Keep it up, I enjoy seeing the word from your perspective.  ::smile::


Thanx again raggthyme! And I do hope you stick around because I also enjoy your posts, but if not, that is also CLEARLY understandable.

Yeshua Bless your Bread of Life and Living Water either way!  ::smile::

daq, Yeshua is the Bread of Life, and living Water is the Holy Spirit.


Yay! we finally agree on something!  ::noworries::

However, FAITH constitutes-denotes action upon a belief. Therefore if you truly believed what you have stated then you would not be proceeding in the manner of action in which you do proceed:

Exodus 23:20-25
20. Behold, I send an Mal'ak before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name is in him.
22. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23. For my Mal'ak shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
24. Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.
25. And ye shall serve the Lord your God, and He shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.


The Scripture here says Mal'ak, (Messenger) but verily it is the HIGH PRIEST who blesses our bread and our water, and yes, in this case Yeshua IS HIMSELF the Bread of Life and Living Water as well as the Mal'ak of YHWH and the Mal'ak of the Covenant from Malachi 3:1. But what think you of John the Baptist which was the other mal'ak also from Malachi 3:1? When your predecessors cut off his head the HIGH PRIEST says that they slew him betwixt the Naos-Temple and the Golden Altar because Elias is the Spirit of the prophets sent from YHWH: Yea or Nay?

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #56 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 09:21:41 »
thethinker:
The word "signify" means to communicate by symbols.

By their saying it many times they think they will be believed.

Rev 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Rev 22:20  He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Rev 22:21  The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.


Nothing symbolic there but literal, plain and clear
.


First, you have not yet answered the irrefutable example I gave in my op. How can Christ literally judge while sitting on a white cloud and riding a horse at the same time? Only one of these visions can be true literally. Both can be true symbolically but only one can be true literally.

Until you deal with this my definition of "signified" stands unrefuted.

Second, the plagues in the Revelation are symbolic for the eternal judgment of God. How could the plagues be added to the disobedient of ALL generations if they are literal? If they are literal they could be added only to the disobedient of the generation which is alive when they are poured out.

But if they symbolize God's eternal judgment, then they may be added to the disobedient of ALL generations.

Check mate my friend!



thinker

EdwardGoodie

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #57 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 10:29:41 »
"Signified" from Revelation 1:1:

Revelation 1:1 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [Strong's G4591] it by his angel unto his servant John:   

The only other five uses of Strong's G4591 in the NT:

John 12:33 -  This he said, signifying what death he should die.

John 18:32 -  That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.

John 21:19 -  This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Acts 11:28 -  And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

Acts 25:27 -  For it seemeth to me unreasonable to send a prisoner, and not withal to signify the crimes laid against him.


It is quite evident that all the other NT uses do NOT express a usage via SYMBOLS.

To quote the person who believes such is the case:

Here is CONCLUSIVE evidence that the Revelation is not literal. First, the opening statement of the book CLEARLY says that that Christ gave the Revelation through His messenger in SYMBOLS. It says that Jesus "SIGNIFIED" it through His messenger (vs. 1). I have said this many times here.




Offline LightHammer

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #58 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 11:15:38 »
    (*) >    < (*)

    / )           ( \         Now that's symbolic.  ::nodding::

    /"            "\   

357

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #59 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 12:01:29 »
"Signified" from Revelation 1:1:

Revelation 1:1 - The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [Strong's G4591] it by his angel unto his servant John:  

The only other five uses of Strong's G4591 in the NT:

John 12:33 -  This he said, signifying what death he should die.

John 18:32 -  That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.

John 21:19 -  This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Acts 11:28 -  And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

Acts 25:27 -  For it seemeth to me unreasonable to send a prisoner, and not withal to signify the crimes laid against him.


It is quite evident that all the other NT uses do NOT express a usage via SYMBOLS.

To quote the person who believes such is the case:

Here is CONCLUSIVE evidence that the Revelation is not literal. First, the opening statement of the book CLEARLY says that that Christ gave the Revelation through His messenger in SYMBOLS. It says that Jesus "SIGNIFIED" it through His messenger (vs. 1). I have said this many times here.







TO ALL,

EdwardGoodie is guilty of what he accuses you Futurists. He is interpreting the word "signify" out of the context of audience relevance. He is violating the chief Preterist principle of Audience Relevance. For instance, when Jesus "If I be lifted up" they had no idea that He was speaking about His death or even death at all. His speech was "signified" and He could have been talking about going to the Father for all they knew.

John tells us AFTER THE FACT that Jesus' speech was about His death. At the time He uttered the words "If I be lifted up" they had no idea that He was talking about. We know that He was speaking about death by crucifixion because we have John's interpretation. But the original audience had no idea what Jesus meant.

EdwardGoodie tells YOU to put yourself in the place of the original audience and fails to do the very same thing here.

The same is true of Agabus's prediction of the great famine. Luke tells us that Agabus "signified" that there would be a great famine. But the people did not know that his speech was about a famine when he said it.  We know that he was speaking about a famine because Luke tells us AFTER THE FACT.

EdwardGoodie is alo guilty of relying solely on Strong's which he has warned YOU not to do.

Moulton's Analytical Greek Lexicon says that the word "signify" (semaino) means "to indicate by a sign" (page 365).

I repeat, when Jesus said, "If I be lifted up" they had no idea that He was speaking about His death. John tells us AFTER THE FACT that Jesus was speaking about His death.

And when Agabus "signified"  the great famine which was to come he did NOT indicate a famine. Luke tells us AFTER THE FACT that Agabus was speaking about a famine.

I am shocked that my Preterist friend has made such a MAJOR logical blunder.

Checkmate on EdwardGoodie



thinker

EdwardGoodie

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #60 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 13:39:28 »
Thanks for that, thethinker!  I haven't had a good laugh for a couple of weeks.  You really should look after that hot temper of yours, though; it seems to be interfering with you analysis of Scripture:


EdwardGoodie is guilty of what he accuses you Futurists. He is interpreting the word "signify" out of the context of audience relevance. He is violating the chief Preterist principle of Audience Relevance. For instance, when Jesus "If I be lifted up" they had no idea that He was speaking about His death or even death at all. His speech was "signified" and He could have been talking about going to the Father for all they knew.


Nope.  Not at all.  While I am definitely a proponent of using the hermeneutic of audience relevance to understand the historicity of the text, Understanding the meaning of a word is not at all dependent on whether audience relevance is used.  In fact, when determining the biblical definitions of words, we should consult ALL Scripture (at varying points in time, might I add) to see if there are multiple usages of that one word.  If there are multiple usages, then it is the context (and other similar contexts at varying points in time) that helps to determine more accurately its meaning.

I am appalled by thethinker's belief that the meaning of a word ("signified") is based upon people's POSSIBLE misunderstanding of an associated topic (the death).  That is pure fallacy.

There are so many things wrong with his statement:

1.  He is mistaken that the disciples did not know what Jesus meant by being lifted up.  Crucifixion was quite COMMON in those days.  Thethinker must believe the Jews were ignorant of this fact.

2.  The disciples never questioned the "lifted up" part.  They only questioned the Son of man part:

John 12:33-34 -  This he said, signifying what death he should die.  
34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?


3.  Jesus uses the same thing to "Signify" Peter's death.  Was Jesus using SYMBOLS to indicate the manner of Peter's death?  HARDLY!

John 21:18-19 - Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.  
19  This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me
.    

Of course, thethinker is just going to say that Peter has now learned what it meant to be lifted up.

But that does not matter.  It is not the understanding of being lifted up that is the issue here or in the other texts.  It is the usage of "signified."  Does Jesus use SYMBOLS to describe Peter's death at his lifting up?  No, it is an accurate description of those on the cross (crucifixion).    Of course, thethinker will probably deny this too...

The issue is whether Jesus was using SYMBOLS to convey his lifting up.

We are merely to believe thethinker solely based on his opinion.  No Scriptural support whatsoever is provided to lend credence to his view...that happens a lot around here.

There is no doubt that Revelation uses symbols.  It also uses many figures, metaphors, and idioms as well.  "Signified" is probably better translated as "indicated" or "revealed" just as it is in the only five other texts in the NT.

EdwardGoodie tells YOU to put yourself in the place of the original audience and fails to do the very same thing here.


While I do insist that people exercise an audience relevance hermeneutic when attempting to exegete a particular passage, there is no justification whatsoever that this hermeneutic technique be applied to the definition of words.  Even thethinker should realize the mistake he has made, for he, himself, will readily admit that the word "earth" does not mean planet in both the Old and the New Testaments - which span several generations.

The same is true of Agabus's prediction of the great famine. Luke tells us that Agabus "signified" that there would be a great famine. But the people did not know that his speech was about a famine when he said it.  We know that he was speaking about a famine because Luke tells us AFTER THE FACT.


Again, the issue is not about whether the people did or did not understand.  I don't even know where he gets the ludicrous idea that the people didn't understand in the first place!

The issue is (once again) whether Agabus used SYMBOLS to talk about the famine.  Let's look at the passage:

Act 11:28  And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
Act 11:29  Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:


Remember, thethinker said "the people did not know that his speech was about a famine when he said it."

So, I will ask that thethinker respond to this very simple question from the text.  I will ask but there will not be any response because the answer is really quite simple for those who actually "think."

The question is why then did the disciples IMMEDIATELY determine to send RELIEF unto the brethren which dwelt in Judea?  Seems like they understood quite well, don't you forum folks agree?

EdwardGoodie is alo guilty of relying solely on Strong's which he has warned YOU not to do.

Moulton's Analytical Greek Lexicon says that the word "signify" (semaino) means "to indicate by a sign" (page 365).


While I do agree that taking Strong's definitions and running with them solely based on his understanding is to be ill-advised, I hope that the folks here can readily see that I did not use Strong's definition at all.  I simply used the James Strong NUMBER to represent the Greek word "signified."  It seems that thethinker would agree that the other verses are the same Greek word and the same Strong's number because he spent much time (but not much thinking) in attempting to use them.

I am also surprised that thethinker would hang his hat on a futurist's interpretation (Moulton) while at the same time accusing me of doing the same with James Strong - even though I did not use his definition - it was only used to find other Scriptures that used the same Greek word.  Perhaps thethinker can explain why he accepts Moulton over Scripture.

I repeat, when Jesus said, "If I be lifted up" they had no idea that He was speaking about His death. John tells us AFTER THE FACT that Jesus was speaking about His death.

And when Agabus "signified"  the great famine which was to come he did NOT indicate a famine. Luke tells us AFTER THE FACT that Agabus was speaking about a famine.

I am shocked that my Preterist friend has made such a MAJOR logical blunder.


You can repeat all you want, but the issue was whether Jesus or Agabus used SYMBOLS to explain/indicate/reveal what they said.  AND NOT ONE DID.

The major blunder is yours.  And please, I am not your friend.  You have made that explicitly clear (and without the use of symbols as well).

Checkmate on EdwardGoodie



You must have fallen asleep in that game.  I was playing black!




« Last Edit: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 13:54:11 by EdwardGoodie »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #61 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 14:21:48 »
If it's part of a vision, it isn't literal.

If it's the explanation of the vision, then it's literal, unless it prefaces itself with a statement saying "this is a puzzle for you to figure out."

Jarrod

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #62 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 16:44:33 »
EdwardGoodie said:
Quote
I am appalled by thethinker's belief that the meaning of a word ("signified") is based upon people's POSSIBLE misunderstanding of an associated topic (the death).  That is pure fallacy.

I did NOT say that the word "signified" was based upon people's POSSIBLE understanding of an associated topic (the death). I simply said that they had no idea that Jesus was speaking about his death. The words "If I be lifted up" would not have made them think of death at all. After that He said that He would "draw all men to Himself." How would He draw all men to Himself if He was "dead?" They could not known that Jesus was speaking about His death.

Quote
There are so many things wrong with his statement:

1.  He is mistaken that the disciples did not know what Jesus meant by being lifted up.  Crucifixion was quite COMMON in those days.  Thethinker must believe the Jews were ignorant of this fact.

Crucifixion was indeed common in those days. But it was NOT heard of to call it being "lifted up."

Quote
2.  The disciples never questioned the "lifted up" part.  They only questioned the Son of man part:

John 12:33-34 -  This he said, signifying what death he should die.  
34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

The word "forever" is not the best translation. They literally said, "Messiah would remain into the age so how can you say He must be lifted up"?

Their expression "into the age" meant that they thought that the Messiah's reign would be temporal. They could not reconcile this with His claim that He would be "lifted up," that is,  that He would reign forever.

 Jesus had earlier used the expression "lifted up" to indicate His eternal nature (John 3:14). So Jesus was using an expresssion which He had earlier used to express His eternal nature and employed it to speak about his death.

Quote
3.  Jesus uses the same thing to "Signify" Peter's death.  Was Jesus using SYMBOLS to indicate the manner of Peter's death?  HARDLY!

John 21:18-19 - Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.  
19  This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
 

That's funny, Jesus did NOT say , "You shall be lifted up or crucified upsidedown."

Quote
Does Jesus use SYMBOLS to describe Peter's death at his lifting up?  No, it is an accurate description of those on the cross (crucifixion).

Then why didn't Jesus say that Peter would be "lifted up" too but upsidedown? Jesus said NOTHING about Peter being crucified in any way. It appears as if Jesus was saying that Peter would die from old age.

EdwardGoodie is reading Peter's crucifixion into the text having the advantage of AFTER THE FACT tradition to call on. All of a sudden he is employing Futurists hermeneutics because he is angry with me for defending Raggthyme.

Quote
There is no doubt that Revelation uses symbols.  It also uses many figures, metaphors, and idioms as well.  "Signified" is probably better translated as "indicated" or "revealed" just as it is in the only five other texts in the NT.

First, EdwardGoodie admits that the Revelation uses symbols and figures and metaphors. Great!

Second, the Greek "semaino" (signified) is translated "signified" consistently in the KJV and NKJV.

Quote
While I do insist that people exercise an audience relevance hermeneutic when attempting to exegete a particular passage, there is no justification whatsoever that this hermeneutic technique be applied to the definition of words.

We know that Jesus used the expression "lifted up" in John 12 to speak of His death because we have AFTER THE FACT apostolic interpretation. The original audience did not. They thought that Jesus was speaking about His eternal nature (3:14).

Quote
Again, the issue is not about whether the people did or did not understand.  I don't even know where he gets the ludicrous idea that the people didn't understand in the first place!


Answer to undrelined portion: Agabus was an end times prophet which required that one have the gift of interpretation! What Bible is EdwardGoodie reading?

Every prophecy had to be interpreted by someone with the gift of interpretation!

Quote
The question is why then did the disciples IMMEDIATELY determine to send RELIEF unto the brethren which dwelt in Judea?  Seems like they understood quite well, don't you forum folks agree?

Ahhhh! Did you all see how EdwardGoodie inserted the word "immediately" into the narrative? He is pulling a Linker on me. The language requires only that the relief was sent when the famine occurred.

thinker
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 18:32:40 by thethinker »

inthenow

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #63 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 18:02:29 »
thethinker:
The word "signify" means to communicate by symbols.

By their saying it many times they think they will be believed.

Rev 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Rev 22:20  He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Rev 22:21  The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.


Nothing symbolic there but literal, plain and clear
.


First, you have not yet answered the irrefutable example I gave in my op. How can Christ literally judge while sitting on a white cloud and riding a horse at the same time? Only one of these visions can be true literally. Both can be true symbolically but only one can be true literally.

Until you deal with this my definition of "signified" stands unrefuted.

Second, the plagues in the Revelation are symbolic for the eternal judgment of God. How could the plagues be added to the disobedient of ALL generations if they are literal? If they are literal they could be added only to the disobedient of the generation which is alive when they are poured out.

But if they symbolize God's eternal judgment, then they may be added to the disobedient of ALL generations.

Check mate my friend!



thinker

I did explain and with scripture the diffrence between coming on clouds and coming on the white horse, and i explained it well.
You don' read opposing posts thoroughly, just a glance through I would say, and I've said it before.
And you can find the post if you wanted to.
« Last Edit: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 18:41:55 by inthenow »

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #64 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 18:21:06 »
Inthenow said:
Quote
quoteI did explain and with scripture the diffrence between coming on clouds and coming on the white horse, and i explained it well.
You don' read opposing posts thoroughly, just a glance through I would say, and I've said it before.
And you can find the post if you wanted to.

You did NOT explain it well because you did not demonstrate it. When I say "deal with it" I mean attempt to PROVE it.

The one sitting on the white cloud and thrusting His sickle IS the Son of Man. This is the judgment. So your view that the judgment will take place from an earthly throne has no basis in the Revelation. And the white horse vision occurs "in heaven." This is also the judgment.

Try again.

thinker

inthenow

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #65 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 18:37:14 »
Inthenow said:
Quote
quoteI did explain and with scripture the diffrence between coming on clouds and coming on the white horse, and i explained it well.
You don' read opposing posts thoroughly, just a glance through I would say, and I've said it before.
And you can find the post if you wanted to.

You did NOT explain it well because you did not demonstrate it. When I say "deal with it" I mean attempt to PROVE it.

The one sitting on the white cloud and thrusting His sickle IS the Son of Man. This is the judgment. So your view that the judgment will take place from an earthly throne has no basis in the Revelation. And the white horse vision occurs "in heaven." This is also the judgment.

Try again.

thinker
I did explain and with scripture the diffrence between coming on clouds and coming on the white horse, and i explained it well.
You don' read opposing posts thoroughly, just a glance through I would say, and I've said it before.
And you can find the post if you wanted to.

thethinker

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #66 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 18:46:36 »
Inthenow said:
Quote
quoteI did explain and with scripture the diffrence between coming on clouds and coming on the white horse, and i explained it well.
You don' read opposing posts thoroughly, just a glance through I would say, and I've said it before.
And you can find the post if you wanted to.

You did NOT explain it well because you did not demonstrate it. When I say "deal with it" I mean attempt to PROVE it.

The one sitting on the white cloud and thrusting His sickle IS the Son of Man. This is the judgment. So your view that the judgment will take place from an earthly throne has no basis in the Revelation. And the white horse vision occurs "in heaven." This is also the judgment.

Try again.

thinker

thinker
I did explain and with scripture the diffrence between coming on clouds and coming on the white horse, and i explained it well.
You don' read opposing posts thoroughly, just a glance through I would say, and I've said it before.
And you can find the post if you wanted to.

You're talking about coming on the clouds and I am talking about Christ's SITTING on a white cloud and thrusting His sickle FROM that cloud. This is the judgment. The white horse vision occurs IN HEAVEN. This is also the judgment. Both cannot be literally true. It's that simple.

I am talking apples and you are talking oranges.

thinker


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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #67 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 18:49:32 »


I am talking apples and you are talking oranges.

thinker




there both good for ya!   ::yummy::

inthenow

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #68 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 19:27:23 »
daq:
TO ALL,

EdwardGoodie is guilty of what he accuses you Futurists.



Why to all, have you got your large audience that you seek?

There's a bit of futurist in me and I agree with him there.

Joh 12:33  This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Edward Goodie is correct, signifying in the NT is literal, meaning in that verse "indicating" and "makeing known"

"This he said, making known what death he should die".

Its so clear one could think, only the blind could not see it.

inthenow

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Re: Hey Futurists! Proof that the Revelation is NOT Literal
« Reply #69 on: Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 19:32:02 »


I am talking apples and you are talking oranges.

thinker




there both good for ya!   ::yummy::
Funny joke Fenton, but I firmly believe preterism is not good for ya!  ::smile::

Denying that Christ is yet to come, and all the blessings we long for etc.

 

     
anything