Author Topic: I Admire Dispensationalism  (Read 2944 times)

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EdwardGoodie

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2012, 09:17:23 AM »
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If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church...


Is 43:5 -
"Fear not, for I am with you: I will bring your descendants from the east, And gather you from the west; I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not keep them back!' Bring My sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth..."

Ez. 37:21
"Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: 'Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land: 'and I will  make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel: and one king shall be king over them all: they shall no longer be divided into two kingdoms again."

May 14th, 1948

God is not done with his beloved Israel. 

Regards,
AsAChild


Like I said before, If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church... There will never again be a return to the old covenant physical temple system.  Christ came to fulfill the Scriptures and to introduce the new covenant. 

A return to the types and shadows system tramples upon the blood of Jesus Christ and His FINAL sacrifice!

You do understand why Edgar Whisenant wrote his book, right?  He took that same 1948 date and added a 40-year generation on to it...(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_C._Whisenant)

Offline DaveW

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2012, 09:45:26 AM »
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Like I said before, If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church... There will never again be a return to the old covenant physical temple system.  Christ came to fulfill the Scriptures and to introduce the new covenant. 
EG, your vision is so limited. 

Every physical promise God made to physical decendants of Jacob WILL be phyiscally fulfilled. 

Many may have an application to the church, whether physical or spiritual, but not all of them.

And again you keep saying that physical fulfilment goes back to the Mosaic covenant. Who do you think the New Covenant was promised to - to gentiles or to the decendants of Jacob?  (clue: Jer 31.31)

Isa 43.5 WILL be accomplished physically. For Jews. In the New Covenant.

BTW, if it is NOT accomplished, if there are not enough physical Jews who believe the New Covenant in and around Jerusalem to cry out "Baruch Haba B'shem Adonai!" [blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord] Jesus will NOT return to earth.

Matt 23.37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!
38 See, your house is left to you desolate.
39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’

EdwardGoodie

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2012, 10:20:04 AM »
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Like I said before, If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church... There will never again be a return to the old covenant physical temple system.  Christ came to fulfill the Scriptures and to introduce the new covenant. 
EG, your vision is so limited. 

Every physical promise God made to physical decendants of Jacob WILL be phyiscally fulfilled. 

Many may have an application to the church, whether physical or spiritual, but not all of them.

And again you keep saying that physical fulfilment goes back to the Mosaic covenant. Who do you think the New Covenant was promised to - to gentiles or to the decendants of Jacob?  (clue: Jer 31.31)

Isa 43.5 WILL be accomplished physically. For Jews. In the New Covenant.

BTW, if it is NOT accomplished, if there are not enough physical Jews who believe the New Covenant in and around Jerusalem to cry out "Baruch Haba B'shem Adonai!" [blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord] Jesus will NOT return to earth.

Matt 23.37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!
38 See, your house is left to you desolate.
39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’

Offline DaveW

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2012, 10:49:53 AM »
Quote from: EdwardGoodie
DaveW,

Help me to understand you:

Yes or no, do you believe that another physical temple will be rebuilt and the old covenant system re-established?
That is 2 questions. (or more)
Yes, I believe that at some point a physical temple will be built, inhabited by the anti-messiah.

And it is possible a fourth temple will be built for Yeshua(Jesus) to reign from during the Millenium/Messianic Kingdom.

Will the Mosaic covenant sacrifices be re-established - No. At least not the sin offerings or the Yom Kippur sacrifices.  It is possible that peace offerings and thank offerings may be established in a New Covenant order, but I am not sure about that.

Quote
Do you realize how many OT Scriptures are used and applied to the church - several hundred, all of which were promises to Israel!
Of course I do.  But that list is far from exhasutive. There are many (like the actual boundaries of The Land from Josh 1) that really have no application to the church.  It WILL be fulfilled to the Jewish people. (right up to the river Euphrates in Iraq)

Quote
And if you believe this covenant has not yet come to pass, please explain to me why the INSPIRED author of Hebrews uses that covenant to apply to the Hebrew CHRISTIANS in Heb 8:7-13 AND Heb 10:15-18?
It has come to pass in part, but not in full.   As Paul writes in Rom 11, ALL Israel shall be saved. Including all (currently) unbelieving Jews.
Quote
Why do you think Peter's preaching at Pentecost was to the whole house of Israel?
His words were to those gathered there (observant Jews from the diaspora) and for us thousands of years later. In that way his words would EVENTUALLY reach the entire house of Israel.
Quote
And in regard to who is the "you," you were very close.  It was the 1st century Jews of Jerusalem, just as it was described as being in their generation...
Except HE has not returned YET.  He will when that happens. Then is when that 4th temple will be set up (or a cleansed 3rd) for HIM to reign physically over the whole earth for 1000 years.

EdwardGoodie

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2012, 10:59:27 AM »

That is 2 questions. (or more)
Yes, I believe that at some point a physical temple will be built, inhabited by the anti-messiah.

And it is possible a fourth temple will be built for Yeshua(Jesus) to reign from during the Millenium/Messianic Kingdom.

Will the Mosaic covenant sacrifices be re-established - No. At least not the sin offerings or the Yom Kippur sacrifices.  It is possible that peace offerings and thank offerings may be established in a New Covenant order, but I am not sure about that.

Quote
Do you realize how many OT Scriptures are used and applied to the church - several hundred, all of which were promises to Israel!
Of course I do.  But that list is far from exhasutive. There are many (like the actual boundaries of The Land from Josh 1) that really have no application to the church.  It WILL be fulfilled to the Jewish people. (right up to the river Euphrates in Iraq)

Quote
And if you believe this covenant has not yet come to pass, please explain to me why the INSPIRED author of Hebrews uses that covenant to apply to the Hebrew CHRISTIANS in Heb 8:7-13 AND Heb 10:15-18?
It has come to pass in part, but not in full.   As Paul writes in Rom 11, ALL Israel shall be saved. Including all (currently) unbelieving Jews.
Quote
Why do you think Peter's preaching at Pentecost was to the whole house of Israel?
His words were to those gathered there (observant Jews from the diaspora) and for us thousands of years later. In that way his words would EVENTUALLY reach the entire house of Israel.
Quote
And in regard to who is the "you," you were very close.  It was the 1st century Jews of Jerusalem, just as it was described as being in their generation...
Except HE has not returned YET.  He will when that happens. Then is when that 4th temple will be set up (or a cleansed 3rd) for HIM to reign physically over the whole earth for 1000 years.

Okay, now we are getting somewhere...I know this is probably an impossible task but I would like to go through each of your responses one by one.  Since you know that I must have Scriptural support for each of my assertions, I will hold you to that same standard.

So, off we go on to your first answer...what Scriptures do you use to support the building of another physical temple post-AD70?

You, of course, may withdraw at any time, especially given the your recent circumstances...

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2012, 10:59:27 AM »



raggthyme

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2012, 11:05:08 AM »
DaveW, you said:

"And again you keep saying that physical fulfilment goes back to the Mosaic covenant. Who do you think the New Covenant was promised to - to gentiles or to the decendants of Jacob?  (clue: Jer 31.31)

Isa 43.5 WILL be accomplished physically. For Jews. In the New Covenant."

Isn't the fact that the remnant of Israelites in the first century were saved enough to fulfill God's promise to Israel?

Paul said even in his present day there was a remnant, and so God had not cast off His people or His promises to them!

Paul quotes Isaiah saying, "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant shall be saved."

So how is God's promise to His beloved Israel not fulfilled in all those Jews added to the church in Acts?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 03:40:21 PM by raggthyme »

Offline DaveW

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2012, 11:22:00 AM »
So, off we go on to your first answer...what Scriptures do you use to support the building of another physical temple post-AD70?

You, of course, may withdraw at any time, especially given the your recent circumstances...
2 thes 2.3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.

I understand as a preterist you think that happened in 70. I do not. Therefore a 3rd temple HAS to be built for him to reign from.

EdwardGoodie

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2012, 11:56:48 AM »
I'm sorry, Dave.  I should have been more specific.  I meant what OLD TESTAMENT Scriptures speak of this rebuilt temple.

We can argue about 2 Thessalonians all week I suppose.  You say it does NOT apply that first century church and I say it does.  Furthermore, as it has been correctly presented somewhere else, it is the present tense that is spoken of:

2Th 2:3  let not any one deceive you in any manner, because--if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed--the son of the destruction,
2Th 2:4  who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God-- the day doth not come.

I guess it all depends upon who Paul was writing to.  The normal futurist understanding IGNORES any relevance of Paul's letter to the very church that he wrote to (2 Thess 1:1) - you know, those who become an example to all the believers in FIRST CENTURY Macedonia and in Achaia (1 Thess 1:7).

BTW, since you believe 2 Thess was written to you and all other Christians, can you tell me when and where it was that Paul told you these things beforehand?  Isn't it just plain logic to assume that Paul is speaking only to the 1st century Thessalonians? (rhetorical question)

2 Thessalonians 2:5 - Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  


But, please, I am just interested in the OT Scriptures that speak of a future building or temple of some kind.



Offline DaveW

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2012, 12:15:52 PM »
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But, please, I am just interested in the OT Scriptures that speak of a future building or temple of some kind.
Not much there but Ezek 41 and 42 has the prophet measuring the Temple and its dimensions are different than either Solomon's temple or Ezra/Nehemiah's, even with the Herodian rebuild.

So which Temple was it he measured?  Not proof positive but it lends itself to a future version after what was standing was razed.

thethinker

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2012, 01:26:13 PM »
I'm sorry, Dave.  I should have been more specific.  I meant what OLD TESTAMENT Scriptures speak of this rebuilt temple.

We can argue about 2 Thessalonians all week I suppose.  You say it does NOT apply that first century church and I say it does.  Furthermore, as it has been correctly presented somewhere else, it is the present tense that is spoken of:

2Th 2:3  let not any one deceive you in any manner, because--if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed--the son of the destruction,
2Th 2:4  who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God-- the day doth not come.

I guess it all depends upon who Paul was writing to.  The normal futurist understanding IGNORES any relevance of Paul's letter to the very church that he wrote to (2 Thess 1:1) - you know, those who become an example to all the believers in FIRST CENTURY Macedonia and in Achaia (1 Thess 1:7).

BTW, since you believe 2 Thess was written to you and all other Christians, can you tell me when and where it was that Paul told you these things beforehand?  Isn't it just plain logic to assume that Paul is speaking only to the 1st century Thessalonians? (rhetorical question)

2 Thessalonians 2:5 - Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  


But, please, I am just interested in the OT Scriptures that speak of a future building or temple of some kind.




Yes and Paul said that the man of sin "has sat down" in the temple.

Quote
who IS OPPOSING (presently) and IS RAISING (presently) himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God , HATH SAT DOWN (past) shewing himself off that he is God -- Young's Literal translation

All parentheses mine

The man of sin already existed and was positioning himself at that time but he had not yet been revealed. Paul knew of his identity by special revelation.

thinker

Offline lecoop

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2012, 05:18:46 PM »
I admire dispensationalists the attempt to make Israel (and not human history) the central focus of eschatology.  

They at least realize a certain amount of impact in regard to BIBLICAL history and not general history.  They seem to understand that the Bible is a book of redemption and that its final purpose is to redeem Israel.

However, what they do not understand is that the Bible’s whole emphasis is BIBLICAL in nature.  It is not a historical account of the world; it is a historical account of Israel – that is quite the difference!

It is in Jesus Christ that all Scripture is fulfilled.  Jesus Christ was Israel’s Messiah.  These dispensationalists seem to understand the type/anti-type structure in regard to Israel and Jesus Christ, yet, at the same time, it get discarded in favour of a church parenthesis.

The physical temple system becomes the spiritual temple system IN CHRIST.
The Cornerstone of the spiritual temple IS CHRIST.  We, Christians, become the lively stones of that REBUILT temple.
The physical city of Jerusalem becomes the spiritual New Jerusalem – not some 1,500 mile square Borg cube.

And also along the way, somehow the whole idea of BIBLICAL history is replaced by human history.  Somehow, the LAST DAYS, first spoken as referring TO ISRAEL are passed on to planet Earth and the material universe.

The entire plan of God was to redeem Israel, and He did.  Once Israel received its promise, others could be added in and are, even as of today, added to the kingdom of God through faith in the FINISHED work of Jesus Christ.

Old covenant Israel lived and died.  From it came the Israel of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I admire dispensationalism for at least understand some of the BIBLICAL aspects of the history of the shadow Israel.  A full understanding of Jesus Christ being its anti-type has not yet been realized by these folks, our friends in Jesus Christ.

If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church...


Ezekiel 40 to the end of the book of Ezekiel.

I forgot to mention, it is DANIEL's 70th week, not Paul's 70th week. Daniel is a HEBREW!

Coop

EdwardGoodie

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2012, 10:47:15 PM »
Quote
But, please, I am just interested in the OT Scriptures that speak of a future building or temple of some kind.
Not much there but Ezek 41 and 42 has the prophet measuring the Temple and its dimensions are different than either Solomon's temple or Ezra/Nehemiah's, even with the Herodian rebuild.

So which Temple was it he measured?  Not proof positive but it lends itself to a future version after what was standing was razed.

That's not really much to go on.  I was expecting a whole bunch of rebuilding the temple verses.

Offline n2thelight

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2012, 03:04:01 AM »
I admire dispensationalists the attempt to make Israel (and not human history) the central focus of eschatology. 

They at least realize a certain amount of impact in regard to BIBLICAL history and not general history.  They seem to understand that the Bible is a book of redemption and that its final purpose is to redeem Israel.

However, what they do not understand is that the Bible’s whole emphasis is BIBLICAL in nature.  It is not a historical account of the world; it is a historical account of Israel – that is quite the difference!

It is in Jesus Christ that all Scripture is fulfilled.  Jesus Christ was Israel’s Messiah.  These dispensationalists seem to understand the type/anti-type structure in regard to Israel and Jesus Christ, yet, at the same time, it get discarded in favour of a church parenthesis.

The physical temple system becomes the spiritual temple system IN CHRIST.
The Cornerstone of the spiritual temple IS CHRIST.  We, Christians, become the lively stones of that REBUILT temple.
The physical city of Jerusalem becomes the spiritual New Jerusalem – not some 1,500 mile square Borg cube.

And also along the way, somehow the whole idea of BIBLICAL history is replaced by human history.  Somehow, the LAST DAYS, first spoken as referring TO ISRAEL are passed on to planet Earth and the material universe.

The entire plan of God was to redeem Israel, and He did.  Once Israel received its promise, others could be added in and are, even as of today, added to the kingdom of God through faith in the FINISHED work of Jesus Christ.

Old covenant Israel lived and died.  From it came the Israel of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I admire dispensationalism for at least understand some of the BIBLICAL aspects of the history of the shadow Israel.  A full understanding of Jesus Christ being its anti-type has not yet been realized by these folks, our friends in Jesus Christ.

If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church...


Who is Israel?

Offline lecoop

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2012, 07:50:01 AM »
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If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church...


Is 43:5 -
"Fear not, for I am with you: I will bring your descendants from the east, And gather you from the west; I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not keep them back!' Bring My sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth..."

Ez. 37:21
"Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: 'Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land: 'and I will  make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel: and one king shall be king over them all: they shall no longer be divided into two kingdoms again."

May 14th, 1948

God is not done with his beloved Israel. 

Regards,
AsAChild


Like I said before, If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church... There will never again be a return to the old covenant physical temple system.  Christ came to fulfill the Scriptures and to introduce the new covenant. 

A return to the types and shadows system tramples upon the blood of Jesus Christ and His FINAL sacrifice!

You do understand why Edgar Whisenant wrote his book, right?  He took that same 1948 date and added a 40-year generation on to it...(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_C._Whisenant)


Still with "head in the sand" syndrome: HOW IN THE WORLD can you equate the PHYSICAL MOVEMENT of Israel back the holy land, with the spiritual kingdom established after Christ's resurrection? You are trying to mix apples and oranges.

Sorry, but there are TOO MANY scriptures that disagree with you and which you ignore.
God never says He will be pleased with Israel resuming their Old Testament sacrifices - but He does say they WILL BEGIN AGAIN. Of course, with your head the the sand, it is hard to see.  What on earth will you do with Ezekiel's temple? Tear it out of your bible?

What about the temple Paul tells us the man of sin will enter and declare he is God? What about the SAME temple that John was told to measure? PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND, repent of your unbelief and start believing!

Coop

Offline lecoop

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2012, 07:57:52 AM »
So, off we go on to your first answer...what Scriptures do you use to support the building of another physical temple post-AD70?

You, of course, may withdraw at any time, especially given the your recent circumstances...
2 thes 2.3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.

I understand as a preterist you think that happened in 70. I do not. Therefore a 3rd temple HAS to be built for him to reign from.

Also, JOhn, in a vision of about 95 AD was told to MEASURE the temple and count how many worshipers were there. Since many here have "head in the sand" syndrome, you have to rewrite history and declare that Revelation was written PRE-70 AD so this temple could fit King Harod's temple. Sorry, it won't work! There are too many other scriptures that totally blow preterism out of the water. In fact, there has NEVER BEEN a temple seen like Ezekiel's millennium temple. That is FUTURE. (You do understand that word?)

Coop