Author Topic: I Admire Dispensationalism  (Read 2887 times)

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Offline lecoop

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2012, 08:10:34 AM »
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But, please, I am just interested in the OT Scriptures that speak of a future building or temple of some kind.
Not much there but Ezek 41 and 42 has the prophet measuring the Temple and its dimensions are different than either Solomon's temple or Ezra/Nehemiah's, even with the Herodian rebuild.

So which Temple was it he measured?  Not proof positive but it lends itself to a future version after what was standing was razed.

That's not really much to go on.  I was expecting a whole bunch of rebuilding the temple verses.

TAKE YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND! Several chapters are not enough verses for you?

Ezekiel 47

 1Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.

 2Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.

 3And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.

 4Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.

 5Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.

 6And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.

 7Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.

 8Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

If your head was not buried in the sand, you would understand this is FUTURE. This may be a difficult word for you, so what this means is: IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED YET.

This is speaking of the millennium temple that you don't believe in, since you don't believe in any "thousand years."  This is just one whole chapter of Revelation that you BLOW OFF.

Whether or not this is the same temple that the man of sin enters to declare he is God, remains to be seen.

Coop

daq

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2012, 01:15:48 PM »
Quote
If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church...


Is 43:5 -
"Fear not, for I am with you: I will bring your descendants from the east, And gather you from the west; I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not keep them back!' Bring My sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth..."

Ez. 37:21
"Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: 'Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land: 'and I will  make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel: and one king shall be king over them all: they shall no longer be divided into two kingdoms again."

May 14th, 1948

God is not done with his beloved Israel.  

Regards,
AsAChild


Like I said before, If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church... There will never again be a return to the old covenant physical temple system.  Christ came to fulfill the Scriptures and to introduce the new covenant.  

A return to the types and shadows system tramples upon the blood of Jesus Christ and His FINAL sacrifice!

You do understand why Edgar Whisenant wrote his book, right?  He took that same 1948 date and added a 40-year generation on to it...(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_C._Whisenant)


Still with "head in the sand" syndrome: HOW IN THE WORLD can you equate the PHYSICAL MOVEMENT of Israel back the holy land, with the spiritual kingdom established after Christ's resurrection? You are trying to mix apples and oranges.

Sorry, but there are TOO MANY scriptures that disagree with you and which you ignore.
God never says He will be pleased with Israel resuming their Old Testament sacrifices - but He does say they WILL BEGIN AGAIN. Of course, with your head the the sand, it is hard to see.  What on earth will you do with Ezekiel's temple? Tear it out of your bible?

What about the temple Paul tells us the man of sin will enter and declare he is God? What about the SAME temple that John was told to measure? PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND, repent of your unbelief and start believing!

Coop


So, off we go on to your first answer...what Scriptures do you use to support the building of another physical temple post-AD70?

You, of course, may withdraw at any time, especially given the your recent circumstances...

2 thes 2.3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.

I understand as a preterist you think that happened in 70. I do not. Therefore a 3rd temple HAS to be built for him to reign from.


Also, JOhn, in a vision of about 95 AD was told to MEASURE the temple and count how many worshipers were there. Since many here have "head in the sand" syndrome, you have to rewrite history and declare that Revelation was written PRE-70 AD so this temple could fit King Harod's temple. Sorry, it won't work! There are too many other scriptures that totally blow preterism out of the water. In fact, there has NEVER BEEN a temple seen like Ezekiel's millennium temple. That is FUTURE. (You do understand that word?)

Coop


THE EZEKIEL TEMPLE IS THE BODY OF CHRIST

John 2:19-21 KJV
19. Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21. But he spake of the temple of his body.

Amos 3:7-8 KJV
7. Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
8. The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord God hath spoken, who can but prophesy?

Ezekiel 43:6-10 KJV
6. And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
7. And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
8. In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
9. Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.
10. Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

Hebrews 10:5-10 KJV
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared (GSN#2675 katartizo) me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Original Strong's Ref. #2675
Romanized  katartizo
Pronounced kat-ar-tid'-zo
from GSN2596 and a derivative of GSN0739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:
KJV--fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect(-ly join together), prepare, restore.

"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou fitted-framed me"...

Repent ...
 ::smile::

Offline lecoop

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2012, 02:02:50 PM »
Quote
If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church...


Is 43:5 -
"Fear not, for I am with you: I will bring your descendants from the east, And gather you from the west; I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not keep them back!' Bring My sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth..."

Ez. 37:21
"Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: 'Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land: 'and I will  make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel: and one king shall be king over them all: they shall no longer be divided into two kingdoms again."

May 14th, 1948

God is not done with his beloved Israel.  

Regards,
AsAChild


Like I said before, If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church... There will never again be a return to the old covenant physical temple system.  Christ came to fulfill the Scriptures and to introduce the new covenant.  

A return to the types and shadows system tramples upon the blood of Jesus Christ and His FINAL sacrifice!

You do understand why Edgar Whisenant wrote his book, right?  He took that same 1948 date and added a 40-year generation on to it...(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_C._Whisenant)


Still with "head in the sand" syndrome: HOW IN THE WORLD can you equate the PHYSICAL MOVEMENT of Israel back the holy land, with the spiritual kingdom established after Christ's resurrection? You are trying to mix apples and oranges.

Sorry, but there are TOO MANY scriptures that disagree with you and which you ignore.
God never says He will be pleased with Israel resuming their Old Testament sacrifices - but He does say they WILL BEGIN AGAIN. Of course, with your head the the sand, it is hard to see.  What on earth will you do with Ezekiel's temple? Tear it out of your bible?

What about the temple Paul tells us the man of sin will enter and declare he is God? What about the SAME temple that John was told to measure? PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND, repent of your unbelief and start believing!

Coop


So, off we go on to your first answer...what Scriptures do you use to support the building of another physical temple post-AD70?

You, of course, may withdraw at any time, especially given the your recent circumstances...

2 thes 2.3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.

I understand as a preterist you think that happened in 70. I do not. Therefore a 3rd temple HAS to be built for him to reign from.


Also, JOhn, in a vision of about 95 AD was told to MEASURE the temple and count how many worshipers were there. Since many here have "head in the sand" syndrome, you have to rewrite history and declare that Revelation was written PRE-70 AD so this temple could fit King Harod's temple. Sorry, it won't work! There are too many other scriptures that totally blow preterism out of the water. In fact, there has NEVER BEEN a temple seen like Ezekiel's millennium temple. That is FUTURE. (You do understand that word?)

Coop


THE EZEKIEL TEMPLE IS THE BODY OF CHRIST

John 2:19-21 KJV
19. Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21. But he spake of the temple of his body.

Amos 3:7-8 KJV
7. Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
8. The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord God hath spoken, who can but prophesy?

Ezekiel 43:6-10 KJV
6. And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
7. And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
8. In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
9. Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.
10. Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

Hebrews 10:5-10 KJV
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared (GSN#2675 katartizo) me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Original Strong's Ref. #2675
Romanized  katartizo
Pronounced kat-ar-tid'-zo
from GSN2596 and a derivative of GSN0739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:
KJV--fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect(-ly join together), prepare, restore.

"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou fitted-framed me"...

Repent ...
 ::smile::


This is the silliest thing I have read yet!  What a pitiful theory of God's word!

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition [theory], which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
  (the world [theory] added because it fits this case better.

God had Ezekiel write, 8 chapters and 8443 words concerning a PHYSICAL temple, complete with measurements of the outside and inside rooms, and you BLOW IT OFF with a pitiful, silly theory that NONE OF IT MEANS WHAT IT SAYS.

Well, one day you will find out God meant what He wrote, but it will be too late. You will find yourself LEFT BEHIND in a world gone totally mad. HOw long will it take into the 70th week before you realized you have swallowed the lies of Satan hook, line and sinker?
Perhaps when the great image is erected and you are told to worship a statue or lose your head? Will that do it?  Time will tell all.

Coop




EdwardGoodie

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2012, 02:26:49 PM »
I find it a bit odd that you believe this temple is to be reconstructed in your millennial period with Jesus Christ on His physical throne governing your physical kingdom.  Why?  It is because of the sin offerings that are demanded by this new temple of yours.  That is why I say you and others who hold to this "theology" trample on the final offering of Jesus Christ for sin:

Eze_40:39  And in the porch of the gate were two tables on this side, and two tables on that side, to slay thereon the burnt offering and the sin offering and the trespass offering.
Eze_42:13  Then said he unto me, The north chambers and the south chambers, which are before the separate place, they be holy chambers, where the priests that approach unto the LORD shall eat the most holy things: there shall they lay the most holy things, and the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; for the place is holy.
Eze_43:19  And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord GOD, a young bullock for a sin offering.
Eze_43:21  Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.
Eze_43:22  And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.
Eze_43:25  Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
Eze_44:27  And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze_44:29  They shall eat the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs.
Eze_45:17  And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.
Eze_45:19  And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court.
Eze_45:22  And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.
Eze_45:23  And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the LORD, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering.
Eze_45:25  In the seventh month, in the fifteenth day of the month, shall he do the like in the feast of the seven days, according to the sin offering, according to the burnt offering, and according to the meat offering, and according to the oil.
Eze_46:20  Then said he unto me, This is the place where the priests shall boil the trespass offering and the sin offering, where they shall bake the meat offering; that they bear them not out into the utter court, to sanctify the people.


The physical temple system has no further part in a world where Jesus was the fulfillment of that old covenant system.  He was our final sacrifice for sin; He is our High Priest; He is the Temple and we are the lively stones of that temple.  All this, you folks shove aside to fulfill your paradigm.

daq

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2012, 02:36:10 PM »
THE EZEKIEL TEMPLE IS THE BODY OF CHRIST

John 2:19-21 KJV
19. Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21. But he spake of the temple of his body.

Amos 3:7-8 KJV
7. Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
8. The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord God hath spoken, who can but prophesy?

Ezekiel 43:6-10 KJV
6. And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
7. And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
8. In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
9. Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.
10. Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

Hebrews 10:5-10 KJV
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared (GSN#2675 katartizo) me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Original Strong's Ref. #2675
Romanized  katartizo
Pronounced kat-ar-tid'-zo
from GSN2596 and a derivative of GSN0739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:
KJV--fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect(-ly join together), prepare, restore.

"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou fitted-framed me"...

Repent ...
 ::smile::


This is the silliest thing I have read yet!  What a pitiful theory of God's word!

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition [theory], which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
  (the world [theory] added because it fits this case better.

God had Ezekiel write, 8 chapters and 8443 words concerning a PHYSICAL temple, complete with measurements of the outside and inside rooms, and you BLOW IT OFF with a pitiful, silly theory that NONE OF IT MEANS WHAT IT SAYS.

Well, one day you will find out God meant what He wrote, but it will be too late. You will find yourself LEFT BEHIND in a world gone totally mad. HOw long will it take into the 70th week before you realized you have swallowed the lies of Satan hook, line and sinker?
Perhaps when the great image is erected and you are told to worship a statue or lose your head? Will that do it?  Time will tell all.

Coop


Ezekiel 40:1 KJV
1. In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the Lord was upon me, and brought me thither.


The year is known to be 573BC, (a year of Jubilee). Why did the prophets Zechariah and Haggai not give the command by the Word of YHWH for the Ezekiel Temple to be built when Judah returned from Babylon? The prophets Zechariah and Haggai prophesied at the time of the building of the second Temple which was later remodeled under Herod. The Ezekiel Temple was prophesied well before the return from Babylon.

Ezekiel 47:1-9 KJV
1. Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
2. Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
3. And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles.
4. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
5. Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
6. And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7. Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8. Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9. And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

John 7:37-38 KJV
37. In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

John 19:32-34 KJV
32. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
34. But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.





http://www.sheshbazzardaq.com/ezekiel-temple.html

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2012, 02:36:10 PM »



Offline lecoop

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2012, 04:33:42 PM »
I find it a bit odd that you believe this temple is to be reconstructed in your millennial period with Jesus Christ on His physical throne governing your physical kingdom.  Why?  It is because of the sin offerings that are demanded by this new temple of yours.  That is why I say you and others who hold to this "theology" trample on the final offering of Jesus Christ for sin:

Eze_40:39  And in the porch of the gate were two tables on this side, and two tables on that side, to slay thereon the burnt offering and the sin offering and the trespass offering.
Eze_42:13  Then said he unto me, The north chambers and the south chambers, which are before the separate place, they be holy chambers, where the priests that approach unto the LORD shall eat the most holy things: there shall they lay the most holy things, and the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; for the place is holy.
Eze_43:19  And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord GOD, a young bullock for a sin offering.
Eze_43:21  Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.
Eze_43:22  And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.
Eze_43:25  Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
Eze_44:27  And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze_44:29  They shall eat the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs.
Eze_45:17  And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.
Eze_45:19  And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court.
Eze_45:22  And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.
Eze_45:23  And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the LORD, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering.
Eze_45:25  In the seventh month, in the fifteenth day of the month, shall he do the like in the feast of the seven days, according to the sin offering, according to the burnt offering, and according to the meat offering, and according to the oil.
Eze_46:20  Then said he unto me, This is the place where the priests shall boil the trespass offering and the sin offering, where they shall bake the meat offering; that they bear them not out into the utter court, to sanctify the people.


The physical temple system has no further part in a world where Jesus was the fulfillment of that old covenant system.  He was our final sacrifice for sin; He is our High Priest; He is the Temple and we are the lively stones of that temple.  All this, you folks shove aside to fulfill your paradigm.

You believe, but not according to scripture. God allowed animal sacrifices for thousands of years, pointing TOWARDS the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God. During the Millennium, He will have animal sacrifices to REMIND people of His supreme sacrifice. Of course the blood of bulls and goats can NEVER remove sin. But sacrifice is BLOODY, MESSY, and sad that an innocent animal losses its life. But this is to remind people of the terribleness of sin.

Coop

EdwardGoodie

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2012, 08:58:04 PM »
I find it a bit odd that you believe this temple is to be reconstructed in your millennial period with Jesus Christ on His physical throne governing your physical kingdom.  Why?  It is because of the sin offerings that are demanded by this new temple of yours.  That is why I say you and others who hold to this "theology" trample on the final offering of Jesus Christ for sin:

Eze_40:39  And in the porch of the gate were two tables on this side, and two tables on that side, to slay thereon the burnt offering and the sin offering and the trespass offering.
Eze_42:13  Then said he unto me, The north chambers and the south chambers, which are before the separate place, they be holy chambers, where the priests that approach unto the LORD shall eat the most holy things: there shall they lay the most holy things, and the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; for the place is holy.
Eze_43:19  And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord GOD, a young bullock for a sin offering.
Eze_43:21  Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.
Eze_43:22  And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.
Eze_43:25  Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
Eze_44:27  And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze_44:29  They shall eat the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs.
Eze_45:17  And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.
Eze_45:19  And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court.
Eze_45:22  And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.
Eze_45:23  And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the LORD, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering.
Eze_45:25  In the seventh month, in the fifteenth day of the month, shall he do the like in the feast of the seven days, according to the sin offering, according to the burnt offering, and according to the meat offering, and according to the oil.
Eze_46:20  Then said he unto me, This is the place where the priests shall boil the trespass offering and the sin offering, where they shall bake the meat offering; that they bear them not out into the utter court, to sanctify the people.


The physical temple system has no further part in a world where Jesus was the fulfillment of that old covenant system.  He was our final sacrifice for sin; He is our High Priest; He is the Temple and we are the lively stones of that temple.  All this, you folks shove aside to fulfill your paradigm.

You believe, but not according to scripture. God allowed animal sacrifices for thousands of years, pointing TOWARDS the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God. During the Millennium, He will have animal sacrifices to REMIND people of His supreme sacrifice. Of course the blood of bulls and goats can NEVER remove sin. But sacrifice is BLOODY, MESSY, and sad that an innocent animal losses its life. But this is to remind people of the terribleness of sin.

Coop

Coop, I would gladly change my mind if you would be willing to support your assertion with Scripture.  Where in Ezekiel does it say that it would serve as a reminder?  You do not seem to be bothered by the fact that you would have two covenant "systems" FUNCTIONING simultaneously.

What about the new born in your millennium?  Would you send them to the temple or to Jesus?  Which covenant would you have them keep and practice?  Which covenant would you observe?

Do you not understand that Jesus destroyed the old covenant system NEVER to be restored again?

Offline lecoop

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2012, 09:57:23 PM »
I find it a bit odd that you believe this temple is to be reconstructed in your millennial period with Jesus Christ on His physical throne governing your physical kingdom.  Why?  It is because of the sin offerings that are demanded by this new temple of yours.  That is why I say you and others who hold to this "theology" trample on the final offering of Jesus Christ for sin:

Eze_40:39  And in the porch of the gate were two tables on this side, and two tables on that side, to slay thereon the burnt offering and the sin offering and the trespass offering.
Eze_42:13  Then said he unto me, The north chambers and the south chambers, which are before the separate place, they be holy chambers, where the priests that approach unto the LORD shall eat the most holy things: there shall they lay the most holy things, and the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; for the place is holy.
Eze_43:19  And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord GOD, a young bullock for a sin offering.
Eze_43:21  Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.
Eze_43:22  And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.
Eze_43:25  Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
Eze_44:27  And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze_44:29  They shall eat the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs.
Eze_45:17  And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.
Eze_45:19  And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court.
Eze_45:22  And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.
Eze_45:23  And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the LORD, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering.
Eze_45:25  In the seventh month, in the fifteenth day of the month, shall he do the like in the feast of the seven days, according to the sin offering, according to the burnt offering, and according to the meat offering, and according to the oil.
Eze_46:20  Then said he unto me, This is the place where the priests shall boil the trespass offering and the sin offering, where they shall bake the meat offering; that they bear them not out into the utter court, to sanctify the people.


The physical temple system has no further part in a world where Jesus was the fulfillment of that old covenant system.  He was our final sacrifice for sin; He is our High Priest; He is the Temple and we are the lively stones of that temple.  All this, you folks shove aside to fulfill your paradigm.

You believe, but not according to scripture. God allowed animal sacrifices for thousands of years, pointing TOWARDS the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God. During the Millennium, He will have animal sacrifices to REMIND people of His supreme sacrifice. Of course the blood of bulls and goats can NEVER remove sin. But sacrifice is BLOODY, MESSY, and sad that an innocent animal losses its life. But this is to remind people of the terribleness of sin.

Coop

Coop, I would gladly change my mind if you would be willing to support your assertion with Scripture.  Where in Ezekiel does it say that it would serve as a reminder?  You do not seem to be bothered by the fact that you would have two covenant "systems" FUNCTIONING simultaneously.

What about the new born in your millennium?  Would you send them to the temple or to Jesus?  Which covenant would you have them keep and practice?  Which covenant would you observe?

Do you not understand that Jesus destroyed the old covenant system NEVER to be restored again?

I think you are mistaken: where do YOU find scripture that the covenant we live under now will continue past the rapture of the church, past the 70th week and into the millennial reign of Christ? We are living in what many call "the age of Grace." Do you suppose it will continue on forever? Can you find verses to support that?

I am convinced the age of grace ENDS when the fulness of the Gentiles enters in. Then a NEW age comes. And it will most certainly contain animal sacrifices. Since Ezekiel did not explain WHY, I only GUESS it will be for a reminder.  WE can be sure the blood of Jesus went back in time to remove sins of all those under the Old covenant, and went forward in time to remove the sins of the whole world.

Did you notice the message of the angels written in Rev. 14, said NOTHING about believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. What was the message of the day?

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Now compare that with Paul's gospel in a nutshell:

1 Corinthians 15

 1  Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


I am convinced the age of Grace we live in will END. God has not written much about the millennial Reign, so we don't know much. But it would behoove us to BELIEVE what is written. I find NOTHING written about the means of salvation during the thousand year reign of Christ. But I can guess forgiveness of sins by His blood will be taught. It is only a guess.

Coop

EdwardGoodie

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2012, 10:34:27 PM »
I find it a bit odd that you believe this temple is to be reconstructed in your millennial period with Jesus Christ on His physical throne governing your physical kingdom.  Why?  It is because of the sin offerings that are demanded by this new temple of yours.  That is why I say you and others who hold to this "theology" trample on the final offering of Jesus Christ for sin:

Eze_40:39  And in the porch of the gate were two tables on this side, and two tables on that side, to slay thereon the burnt offering and the sin offering and the trespass offering.
Eze_42:13  Then said he unto me, The north chambers and the south chambers, which are before the separate place, they be holy chambers, where the priests that approach unto the LORD shall eat the most holy things: there shall they lay the most holy things, and the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; for the place is holy.
Eze_43:19  And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord GOD, a young bullock for a sin offering.
Eze_43:21  Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.
Eze_43:22  And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.
Eze_43:25  Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
Eze_44:27  And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze_44:29  They shall eat the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs.
Eze_45:17  And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.
Eze_45:19  And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court.
Eze_45:22  And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.
Eze_45:23  And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the LORD, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering.
Eze_45:25  In the seventh month, in the fifteenth day of the month, shall he do the like in the feast of the seven days, according to the sin offering, according to the burnt offering, and according to the meat offering, and according to the oil.
Eze_46:20  Then said he unto me, This is the place where the priests shall boil the trespass offering and the sin offering, where they shall bake the meat offering; that they bear them not out into the utter court, to sanctify the people.


The physical temple system has no further part in a world where Jesus was the fulfillment of that old covenant system.  He was our final sacrifice for sin; He is our High Priest; He is the Temple and we are the lively stones of that temple.  All this, you folks shove aside to fulfill your paradigm.

You believe, but not according to scripture. God allowed animal sacrifices for thousands of years, pointing TOWARDS the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God. During the Millennium, He will have animal sacrifices to REMIND people of His supreme sacrifice. Of course the blood of bulls and goats can NEVER remove sin. But sacrifice is BLOODY, MESSY, and sad that an innocent animal losses its life. But this is to remind people of the terribleness of sin.

Coop

Coop, I would gladly change my mind if you would be willing to support your assertion with Scripture.  Where in Ezekiel does it say that it would serve as a reminder?  You do not seem to be bothered by the fact that you would have two covenant "systems" FUNCTIONING simultaneously.

What about the new born in your millennium?  Would you send them to the temple or to Jesus?  Which covenant would you have them keep and practice?  Which covenant would you observe?

Do you not understand that Jesus destroyed the old covenant system NEVER to be restored again?

I think you are mistaken: where do YOU find scripture that the covenant we live under now will continue past the rapture of the church, past the 70th week and into the millennial reign of Christ? We are living in what many call "the age of Grace." Do you suppose it will continue on forever? Can you find verses to support that?

I am convinced the age of grace ENDS when the fulness of the Gentiles enters in. Then a NEW age comes. And it will most certainly contain animal sacrifices. Since Ezekiel did not explain WHY, I only GUESS it will be for a reminder.  WE can be sure the blood of Jesus went back in time to remove sins of all those under the Old covenant, and went forward in time to remove the sins of the whole world.

Did you notice the message of the angels written in Rev. 14, said NOTHING about believing in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. What was the message of the day?

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Now compare that with Paul's gospel in a nutshell:

1 Corinthians 15

 1  Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


I am convinced the age of Grace we live in will END. God has not written much about the millennial Reign, so we don't know much. But it would behoove us to BELIEVE what is written. I find NOTHING written about the means of salvation during the thousand year reign of Christ. But I can guess forgiveness of sins by His blood will be taught. It is only a guess.

Coop

Why is it so difficult for you to answer any of my questions?  You expect answers for yours, don't you?

I'll answer yours: Ephesians 3:21 (May I suggest an ESV or YLT translation?)

Please answer mine as a good Christian who is interested in discussing Scripture should.  Thank you.

There are two covenant ages: old covenant and new covenant (Gal 4:21-31).  The whole of the NT is in regard to the transitioning over from the old covenant to the new covenant.  There is much talk of how the old covenant people (unbelieving Jews) persecuted the new covenant people in Christ.  The "present age" spoken of in the Scriptures was still while the the old covenant physical temple stood.  The new covenant temple in Jesus Christ takes its place.  I know you are going to say it is "replacement theology" but it is actually fulfillment theology because you and I both know that Jesus came to fulfill the law.  In Him, there is no need for any other temple system...the bondwoman is cast out (Gal 4:30).

Blessings, Ted
« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 11:11:16 PM by EdwardGoodie »

Offline lecoop

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2012, 04:21:52 PM »
Ted wrote,
Quote
Why is it so difficult for you to answer any of my questions?  You expect answers for yours, don't you?

I'll answer yours: Ephesians 3:21 (May I suggest an ESV or YLT translation?)

Please answer mine as a good Christian who is interested in discussing Scripture should.  Thank you.

There are two covenant ages: old covenant and new covenant (Gal 4:21-31).  The whole of the NT is in regard to the transitioning over from the old covenant to the new covenant.  There is much talk of how the old covenant people (unbelieving Jews) persecuted the new covenant people in Christ.  The "present age" spoken of in the Scriptures was still while the the old covenant physical temple stood.  The new covenant temple in Jesus Christ takes its place.  I know you are going to say it is "replacement theology" but it is actually fulfillment theology because you and I both know that Jesus came to fulfill the law.  In Him, there is no need for any other temple system...the bondwoman is cast out (Gal 4:30).

Blessings, Ted




Quote
Coop, I would gladly change my mind if you would be willing to support your assertion with Scripture.  Where in Ezekiel does it say that it would serve as a reminder?  You do not seem to be bothered by the fact that you would have two covenant "systems" FUNCTIONING simultaneously.

I already answered this I believe. NOWHERE does it say in black and white that animal sacrifices will be happening once again as a reminder. I GUESSED.

Quote
What about the new born in your millennium?  Would you send them to the temple or to Jesus?  Which covenant would you have them keep and practice?  Which covenant would you observe?

Your questions seem almost too silly to answer; childish. By "my millennium" do you mean the 1000 reign of Christ that is coming?  If so, I would have to guess because God has simply NOT TOLD US enough about the Reign of Christ on earth. I know the Bride of Christ from today will be there as judges then. I will be one of them. It remains to be seen what tasks God will give us. You do realize, when Jesus came the first time, HE SEVERELY chastised the Scribes and Pharisees because they did not understand the Old Covenant was ENDING now that the Prince of that covenant was standing among them.
("The Law was until John.") And when Israel as a nation REJECTED their own Savior, God turned to the Gentiles who would return the expected fruits. (Matt. 21:41)

Since we see in God's word a PATTERN of one convenant ENDING and another begining, why is it you find it so difficult to believe there will be an END to the age of grace we are living in, when Paul wrote that it WOULD end. Do you remember something about the fulness of the Gentiles? An answer to these questions would only be GUESSES because God has not written anything about it.

Quote
Do you not understand that Jesus destroyed the old covenant system NEVER to be restored again?

This is impossible, for that old Covenant has ONE WEEK REMAINING, to begin as soon as the fulness of Gentiles will have come in.

You really do have a problem with reading and comprehension, don't you!

Eph 3
21Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end.

What is this really telling us: that the current age will last forever? NO NO NO!!!
What will last forever will be UNTO HIM BE GLORY.  OF COURSE His People will continue to give Glory to Him because He is deserving of Glory.

"There are two covenant ages: "

Did you forget about the days BEFORE the first covenant? First there was a covenant in the Garden. It was broken by Adam.  Then there was another covenant up to the flood. And another after the flood. Finally there was the Abrahamic covenant from which the next two that you spoke of originated from.

" The whole of the NT is in regard to the transitioning over from the old covenant to the new covenant. "  This is a theory of man's reasoning, TOTALLY IGNORING what John wrote of the NEXT covenant, a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth as KING.

Why don't you take this up with Jesus when He is here as KING, and animal sacrifices are commenced once again?

Coop

raggthyme

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2012, 07:56:09 PM »


Why don't you take this up with Jesus when He is here as KING, and animal sacrifices are commenced once again?

Coop

Isaiah 65 and 66

I am sought of [them that] asked not [for me]; I am found of [them that] sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation [that] was not called by my name.

I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way [that was] not good, after their own thoughts;

A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable [things is in] their vessels;

Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These [are] a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

Behold, [it is] written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,

Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.

Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and [one] saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing [is] in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.

But ye [are] they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.

Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose [that] wherein I delighted not.

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:

Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

But be ye glad and rejoice for ever [in that] which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.

And they shall build houses, and inhabit [them]; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree [are] the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they [are] the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Thus saith the LORD, The heaven [is] my throne, and the earth [is] my footstool: where [is] the house that ye build unto me? and where [is] the place of my rest?

For all those [things] hath mine hand made, and all those [things] have been, saith the LORD: but to this [man] will I look, [even] to [him that is] poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

He that killeth an ox [is as if] he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, [as if] he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, [as if he offered] swine's blood; he that burneth incense, [as if] he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not.

Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut [the womb]? saith thy God.

Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.

For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon [her] sides, and be dandled upon [her] knees.

As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

And when ye see [this], your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and [his] indignation toward his enemies.

For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

For I [know] their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, [to] Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, [to] Tubal, and Javan, [to] the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

And they shall bring all your brethren [for] an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

And I will also take of them for priests [and] for Levites, saith the LORD.

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.



Coop,

Do you believe that Isaiah is speaking of the Millenium, when "the wolf and the lamb shall lie down together"?



Offline lecoop

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2012, 08:16:35 PM »


Why don't you take this up with Jesus when He is here as KING, and animal sacrifices are commenced once again?

Coop

Isaiah 65 and 66

I am sought of [them that] asked not [for me]; I am found of [them that] sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation [that] was not called by my name.

I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way [that was] not good, after their own thoughts;

A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable [things is in] their vessels;

Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These [are] a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

Behold, [it is] written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,

Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.

Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and [one] saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing [is] in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.

But ye [are] they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.

Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose [that] wherein I delighted not.

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:

Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

But be ye glad and rejoice for ever [in that] which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.

And they shall build houses, and inhabit [them]; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree [are] the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they [are] the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Thus saith the LORD, The heaven [is] my throne, and the earth [is] my footstool: where [is] the house that ye build unto me? and where [is] the place of my rest?

For all those [things] hath mine hand made, and all those [things] have been, saith the LORD: but to this [man] will I look, [even] to [him that is] poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

He that killeth an ox [is as if] he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, [as if] he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, [as if he offered] swine's blood; he that burneth incense, [as if] he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not.

Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut [the womb]? saith thy God.

Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.

For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon [her] sides, and be dandled upon [her] knees.

As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

And when ye see [this], your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and [his] indignation toward his enemies.

For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

For I [know] their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, [to] Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, [to] Tubal, and Javan, [to] the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

And they shall bring all your brethren [for] an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

And I will also take of them for priests [and] for Levites, saith the LORD.

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.



Coop,

Do you believe that Isaiah is speaking of the Millenium, when "the wolf and the lamb shall lie down together"?


What happens today if a lamb is foolish enough to lay down among wolves?
Does a lion eat grass today; I mean as a steady diet?

Coop

raggthyme

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2012, 08:37:07 PM »


Why don't you take this up with Jesus when He is here as KING, and animal sacrifices are commenced once again?

Coop

Isaiah 65 and 66

I am sought of [them that] asked not [for me]; I am found of [them that] sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation [that] was not called by my name.

I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way [that was] not good, after their own thoughts;

A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable [things is in] their vessels;

Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These [are] a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

Behold, [it is] written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,

Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.

Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and [one] saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing [is] in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.

But ye [are] they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.

Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose [that] wherein I delighted not.

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:

Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

But be ye glad and rejoice for ever [in that] which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.

And they shall build houses, and inhabit [them]; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree [are] the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they [are] the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Thus saith the LORD, The heaven [is] my throne, and the earth [is] my footstool: where [is] the house that ye build unto me? and where [is] the place of my rest?

For all those [things] hath mine hand made, and all those [things] have been, saith the LORD: but to this [man] will I look, [even] to [him that is] poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

He that killeth an ox [is as if] he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, [as if] he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, [as if he offered] swine's blood; he that burneth incense, [as if] he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose [that] in which I delighted not.

Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? [or] shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut [the womb]? saith thy God.

Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.

For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon [her] sides, and be dandled upon [her] knees.

As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

And when ye see [this], your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and [his] indignation toward his enemies.

For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

For I [know] their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, [to] Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, [to] Tubal, and Javan, [to] the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

And they shall bring all your brethren [for] an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

And I will also take of them for priests [and] for Levites, saith the LORD.

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.



Coop,

Do you believe that Isaiah is speaking of the Millenium, when "the wolf and the lamb shall lie down together"?


What happens today if a lamb is foolish enough to lay down among wolves?
Does a lion eat grass today; I mean as a steady diet?

Coop

I will take that as a yes. So if it is the Millenium, why is He speaking of the New Heavens and New Earth? And why is He showing disdain for the Old Covenant sacrifices, those things which Hebrews says He delights not in. Yet unbelieving Israel chose those things over the blessed Son and His New Covenant. Therefore, God did slay them, and called His chosen servants by another name.

Don't you see how this is just as Jesus said... referring to the days of vengeance when all things written would be fulfilled. And again to the New Creation God created when He saved the remnant of His people and added to her the gentiles that were coming to Him by faith. He made the two one. It's all there, but you only seem to see a literal, future fulfillment. The wolf and lamb were considered clean and unclean, as were all the animals listed here. According to Peter's vision in Acts 10, can you see what picture this is painting??? Not everything is literal, especially when dealing with prophetic or "apocalyptic" language.

Consider David's description of God delivering him from the hand of all his enemies and from the hand of Saul:

Psalm 18

The LORD [is] my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, [and] my high tower.

I will call upon the LORD, [who is worthy] to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.

The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.

The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, [even] into his ears.

Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.

There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness [was] under his feet.

And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him [were] dark waters [and] thick clouds of the skies.

At the brightness [that was] before him his thick clouds passed, hail [stones] and coals of fire.

The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail [stones] and coals of fire.

Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.

Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.

He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters.

He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me.

They prevented me in the day of my calamity: but the LORD was my stay.

He brought me forth also into a large place; he delivered me, because he delighted in me.

The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.



Did He literally come down in clouds? Were there literal hailstones or coals of fire? Or was it an exaggerated and dramatic expression of God's judgment falling upon the enemies of His chosen??
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 09:41:35 PM by raggthyme »

EdwardGoodie

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2012, 10:17:10 PM »

Also, JOhn, in a vision of about 95 AD was told to MEASURE the temple and count how many worshipers were there. Since many here have "head in the sand" syndrome, you have to rewrite history and declare that Revelation was written PRE-70 AD so this temple could fit King Harod's temple.

Coop

Why do you believe John wrote Revelation in 95 AD?  What are your specific sources?

As for rewriting history, that is almost laughable.  Here is the Christian scholarship in regards to that history.  The following ALL believed in an early date for the writing of Revelation.  YOU JUST ASSERT YOUR OPINION WITH ZERO PROOF WHATSOEVER.  Don't worry; I am well aware of this kind of attack...

Here are some of my sources:

Firmin Abauzit, Essai sur 1’ Apoca@pse (Geneva: 1730). [1, 6] 31
Jay E. Adams, The Time and Reformed, 1966).
Luis de Alcasar, Ve.stigatio[6]
B. Aub& [6, 3] is at Hand (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian
arcarzi Semw.s in [email protected] (Antwerp: 1614).
Karl August Auberlen, Daniel and Reuelatwn in T/wir Mutual Relation (Andover: 1857). [3, 8]
Greg L. Bahnsen, “The Book of Revelation: Its Setting

Offline lecoop

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Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2012, 11:44:54 AM »

Also, JOhn, in a vision of about 95 AD was told to MEASURE the temple and count how many worshipers were there. Since many here have "head in the sand" syndrome, you have to rewrite history and declare that Revelation was written PRE-70 AD so this temple could fit King Harod's temple.

Coop

Why do you believe John wrote Revelation in 95 AD?  What are your specific sources?

As for rewriting history, that is almost laughable.  Here is the Christian scholarship in regards to that history.  The following ALL believed in an early date for the writing of Revelation.  YOU JUST ASSERT YOUR OPINION WITH ZERO PROOF WHATSOEVER.  Don't worry; I am well aware of this kind of attack...

Here are some of my sources:

Firmin Abauzit, Essai sur 1’ Apoca@pse (Geneva: 1730). [1, 6] 31
Jay E. Adams, The Time and Reformed, 1966).
Luis de Alcasar, Ve.stigatio[6]
B. Aub& [6, 3] is at Hand (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian
arcarzi Semw.s in [email protected] (Antwerp: 1614).
Karl August Auberlen, Daniel and Reuelatwn in T/wir Mutual Relation (Andover: 1857). [3, 8]
Greg L. Bahnsen, “The Book of Revelation: Its Setting