Author Topic: I Admire Dispensationalism  (Read 3217 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

EdwardGoodie

  • Guest
I Admire Dispensationalism
« on: Sat Jan 21, 2012 - 20:35:44 »
I admire dispensationalists the attempt to make Israel (and not human history) the central focus of eschatology. 

They at least realize a certain amount of impact in regard to BIBLICAL history and not general history.  They seem to understand that the Bible is a book of redemption and that its final purpose is to redeem Israel.

However, what they do not understand is that the Bible’s whole emphasis is BIBLICAL in nature.  It is not a historical account of the world; it is a historical account of Israel – that is quite the difference!

It is in Jesus Christ that all Scripture is fulfilled.  Jesus Christ was Israel’s Messiah.  These dispensationalists seem to understand the type/anti-type structure in regard to Israel and Jesus Christ, yet, at the same time, it get discarded in favour of a church parenthesis.

The physical temple system becomes the spiritual temple system IN CHRIST.
The Cornerstone of the spiritual temple IS CHRIST.  We, Christians, become the lively stones of that REBUILT temple.
The physical city of Jerusalem becomes the spiritual New Jerusalem – not some 1,500 mile square Borg cube.

And also along the way, somehow the whole idea of BIBLICAL history is replaced by human history.  Somehow, the LAST DAYS, first spoken as referring TO ISRAEL are passed on to planet Earth and the material universe.

The entire plan of God was to redeem Israel, and He did.  Once Israel received its promise, others could be added in and are, even as of today, added to the kingdom of God through faith in the FINISHED work of Jesus Christ.

Old covenant Israel lived and died.  From it came the Israel of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I admire dispensationalism for at least understand some of the BIBLICAL aspects of the history of the shadow Israel.  A full understanding of Jesus Christ being its anti-type has not yet been realized by these folks, our friends in Jesus Christ.

If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church...

daq

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #1 on: Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 01:51:08 »
AMEN!

Zechariah 3:8-10 KJV
8. Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.
9. For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
10. In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

Zechariah 6:12-13 KJV
12. And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:
13. Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Zechariah 12:7-10 KJV
7. The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8. In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.


And that is why Paul states that the Gospel is unto the Jew first, because the Scripture explicitly makes it CLEAR in Zechariah 12:7, and it was fulfilled FIRST in the Apostles, and the 120, and then at Pentecost about 3000 souls were added, (sealed unto their appointed times).

Romans 1:16 KJV
16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:9-11 KJV
9. Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10. But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11. For there is no respect of persons with God.


It is not about "respect of persons" or physical seed lines but, rather, it is about the fulfillment of the promises through the chosen people: I.E. if one desires to find YHWH then he or she will find His Word of Truth only where He said it would be; and that is to follow the line of Isaac and not the lines of Ishmael because YHWH is not going to be found in the precepts and religions of the Ishmaelites. Thus YHWH has fulfilled His Word exactly as He said; and it is nothing against the "Ishmaelites" but that it simply is what it is. And now the Ishmaelites, Greeks, and all ethnos, and all Nations, and all peoples who are willing, may be grafted into Christ Yeshua who is the Root, the Vine, the Door, the Lion of Judah, and the Passover Lamb of YHWH, even so as to become part of the family of the House of YHWH which is the ALL ISRAEL of YHWH!  ::smile::

raggthyme

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #2 on: Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 04:50:20 »
I admire dispensationalists the attempt to make Israel (and not human history) the central focus of eschatology. 

They at least realize a certain amount of impact in regard to BIBLICAL history and not general history.  They seem to understand that the Bible is a book of redemption and that its final purpose is to redeem Israel.

However, what they do not understand is that the Bible’s whole emphasis is BIBLICAL in nature.  It is not a historical account of the world; it is a historical account of Israel – that is quite the difference!

It is in Jesus Christ that all Scripture is fulfilled.  Jesus Christ was Israel’s Messiah.  These dispensationalists seem to understand the type/anti-type structure in regard to Israel and Jesus Christ, yet, at the same time, it get discarded in favour of a church parenthesis.

The physical temple system becomes the spiritual temple system IN CHRIST.
The Cornerstone of the spiritual temple IS CHRIST.  We, Christians, become the lively stones of that REBUILT temple.
The physical city of Jerusalem becomes the spiritual New Jerusalem – not some 1,500 mile square Borg cube.

And also along the way, somehow the whole idea of BIBLICAL history is replaced by human history.  Somehow, the LAST DAYS, first spoken as referring TO ISRAEL are passed on to planet Earth and the material universe.

The entire plan of God was to redeem Israel, and He did.  Once Israel received its promise, others could be added in and are, even as of today, added to the kingdom of God through faith in the FINISHED work of Jesus Christ.

Old covenant Israel lived and died.  From it came the Israel of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I admire dispensationalism for at least understand some of the BIBLICAL aspects of the history of the shadow Israel.  A full understanding of Jesus Christ being its anti-type has not yet been realized by these folks, our friends in Jesus Christ.

If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church...


What I have a hard time understanding is this:

Why do folks put such an emphasis on physical Jerusalem in end times prophecy? I believe Paul said the Jerusalem that now is (or was in his day) was in bondage with her children, cast out and not to inherit the promises... but that the New Jerusalem (the one above) is free and is the mother of all of us who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Why have an earthly Jerusalem at the center of everything (and why the need for a physical city at all) when it seems clear that the New Jerusalem descends from heaven and is truly the apple of God's eye? Isn't it the remnant of Israel that inherits the promises? Paul said that even in [his] present day there remained that remnant and joined to it would be all nations, and languages. Jew and Gentile becoming one is Christ, and together made heirs. Am I reading it wrong?

Offline pointmade

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1113
  • Manna: 50
    • View Profile
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #3 on: Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 07:50:49 »
"Remnant:" those who obey the Gospel.
The remnant are those who have always loved and obeyed the Lord.
The remnant is not a secret band of followers who have a decoding ring
that gives them an insight on his return.

Jesus said, "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned"
It takes professional help to miss that...

raggthyme

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #4 on: Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 12:17:23 »
"Remnant:" those who obey the Gospel.
The remnant are those who have always loved and obeyed the Lord.
The remnant is not a secret band of followers who have a decoding ring
that gives them an insight on his return.

Jesus said, "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned"
It takes professional help to miss that...

I definitely agree with the last sentence!  ::smile:: But do you have Scriptures to back up this idea that the remnant of Israel spoken of throughout the OT prophets and by Paul, specifically in Rom 9:27 and 11:5 is as you say?

[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.


I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

My personal belief is that the remnant was actually a fairly small number of Israelites (as compared with the 7000 men who did not bow the knee to Baal) and it was to these that the prophets referred, which were saved in the first century. Because Paul says at this present time (the time in which he wrote the epistle) there was a remnant of Israel reserved according to the election of grace. I cannot find Scripture to support the thought that the remnant referred to all and any who by faith love and obey the Lord, throughout all time.

 ::reading::
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 13:00:32 by raggthyme »

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #4 on: Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 12:17:23 »



raggthyme

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #5 on: Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 14:58:16 »
"Why do folks put such an emphasis on physical Jerusalem in end times prophecy?"

[Isaiah 11; 27; Jeremiah 30; 31; Ezekiel 36; Joel 2; 3; Micah 4; 5; Zechariah 14:8-21]

You have been severely mislead with regard to the Lord's future intents with His nation of Israel by others that you follow .... preterism's replacement [that the Lord's church is now national Israel] theology, historical allegory, and teaching against the Lord's next intervention is bogus .... a twisted ruse

When this is done much of the literal and specific unfulfilled portion of the Bible prophets is ignored by making it without effect .... turning the truth into fables and spiritualism

The behavior of those who do this reflects a standing "against" Jesus Christ ["anti"-christ] while at the same time they claim to be "christian" .... total deception is in the making by pretenders who deliberately meddle with the Lord's Word for self gain

..... do not follow their course because you can be taken by the insidious motives than are hidden in their teaching [Matthew 24:4-5; 2Peter 3: 3-12] ..... some are deliberate, and others have been deceived by those who know what they are doing

You can be drawn away to the extent that you will not inhabit the Lord's eternity

    

Isaiah 11

And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

I believe this is a reference to Messiah and His earthly ministry.
The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord... And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

I don't think this is literally wolf and lamb, leopard and kid, calf and young lion or that a child will literally lead them somewhere. I believe this is a prophecy about the mystery Paul spoke of.. Jew and Gentile joined together as one in Christ. And the child symbolizes Jesus' words about the humbling of oneself as a little child and those who would be great among them would be servants of all. It appears to me that the animals are clean and unclean, as was considered the Jew and the Gentile. Because Peter had that vision about the unclean creatures being let down and heard a voice saying, "what God hath cleansed call not thou common." Peter, after pondering what it meant, realized the vision was of the cleansing of the Gentiles. Also, Jesus says those who come to Him will have His rest. In God's holy mountain, they will not destroy one another because they live by the Law of Love and are one in Christ Jesus. (See Heb 12:22)

And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

I believe this is the gathering of God's elect as the gospel went out in the first century. I believe the spoil is actually speaking of the conversion of former enemies, not war of some sort. Jesus is said to divide the spoil among the strong and Paul is likely to fulfill the Benjamite wolf prophecy in that he first killed the elect of God but afterward he shared in the dividing of spoil, the victory in the gospel, as he won many converts to Christ.

And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make [men] go over dryshod. And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

I believe this also speaks of the highway that John the Baptist was to prepare:

Isaiah 40
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Isaiah 35
And a highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness: the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
   
No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon.. but the redeemed shall walk there.


I don't think this is a literal highway, but the Way, the truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Him.
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 01:19:05 by raggthyme »

raggthyme

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #6 on: Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 15:13:04 »
"Why do folks put such an emphasis on physical Jerusalem in end times prophecy?"

[Isaiah 11; 27; Jeremiah 30; 31; Ezekiel 36; Joel 2; 3; Micah 4; 5; Zechariah 14:8-21]

You have been severely mislead with regard to the Lord's future intents with His nation of Israel by others that you follow .... preterism's replacement [that the Lord's church is now national Israel] theology, historical allegory, and teaching against the Lord's next intervention is bogus .... a twisted ruse

    

Isaiah 27:13
And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

John 4
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father... But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

I see no need for a physical fulfillment of Isaiah 27, when our Lord Himself said no longer will people worship in that mountain, or at physical Jerusalem but in the New Covenant they will worship Him in His spiritual holy mountain, wherever they live upon the earth!

One more thing, I don't personally believe in replacement theology as you define it. I believe God's promises were fulfilled to national Israel (twelve tribes) through the remnant which were saved in the first century. I believe the gentiles were grafted into this remnant to create one new man from the two.. the body of Christ, His church.
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 11:32:09 by raggthyme »

EdwardGoodie

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #7 on: Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 15:40:12 »
Isaiah 11 is often quoted in defense of what Linker said...

Like I said in my original post, "If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church..."

The apostle Paul is not believed when he quotes Isaiah 11:10 as a reference to the Gentiles being added to the church (coming into faith by Jesus Christ the Branch)

Isaiah 11:10 - And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.  

Romans 15:12 - And again, Isaiah saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.    
 

The previous three verses of Paul's discourse Romans 15:9-11 quote three other OT Scriptures that speak of the Gentiles coming to faith as well.  THIS SETS THE CONTEXT!

But Paul's INSPIRED illumination of Isaiah 11 is not accepted because many folks refuse to accept the common metaphors and symbols used by the prophets.  Isaiah 11:1-9 SEEMS to represent a bunch of animals getting along with each other, but Paul's inspired illumination of Isaiah 11 SHOULD counteract that false idea.

But for many, what Paul says just isn't good enough.  Hence, they still see Isaiah 11:10's "in that day" as a yet future event, and in the most "wooden" literal sense.  The common metaphors and symbols are IGNORED.

Yet for some strange reason, these same people see the Gentile context in Peter's vision of Acts 10!!!  Go figure!

The same kind of ignoring goes for Amos' "in that day" of Amos 9:11-12 as quoted by James in Acts 15:15-17 in regard to the salvation of the Gentiles...study it out, folks.

Offline Lady Minstral

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • Manna: 0
    • View Profile
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #8 on: Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 17:27:37 »
From what I know...in learning from Steve Wohlberg of WHITE HORSE MEDIA....a Christian pastor of Jewish descent...He has one of the most wonderful teachings on all the deceptions in modern day end times prophecies...USING ONLY THE BIBLE TO SHOW THE TRUTH....Its amazing how deceived we are today as a church..

REMEMBER WE WERE TOLD THAT THIS WOULD HAPPEN..AND EVEN THE ELECT WOULD BE DECEIVED..

The bible said that Christ will not come until there be a great falling away>>I think that has happened today..and you will too if you listen to this anointed Christian pastor..

You can start with YOUTUBE ISRAEL DELUSIONS...

In Wohlbergs YOUTUBE ANTICHRIST DELUSIONS video #5..he will tell you how all this rapture...and a Jewish temple..and all that was started..

He said  the 'LEFT BEHIND' thinking was begat by the Jesuits...So I looked them up..and found there were many Jews in the Jesuits...

These 'new' teachings support Pro Jew..Pro Israel in Palestine. and Pro Jews ruling over the entire earth...way of thinking..NONE OF THIS IS SCRIPTURAL...

there will be no Temple of God built in Israel..that is of God..

THINK....If God supported a Temple..that would be used to sacrifice goats for sin...then there was no need to send his son to die for the sins of mankind..There are not two gospels..One for Jews..and one for the rest of us...Therefore..its impossible for any Temple of Palestine/Israel to be of God.

When Christ came...Spiritual Israel became Christians....Fleshly Israel was LEFT BEHIND...and I think still exists today...I think these are the Zionist..with a global agenda...This is proven by the LEFT BEHIND series ...teachings of the Jesuits...of a promised land with  Jewish Supremacy.. Because they didnt recognize Christ...they are misinterpreting OT scripture....They do not realize that the promises were made to Christ Israel..and those who follow him..

They do not realize that when God in OT prophecy..said he would reunite Israel and Judah..and put his spirit into their minds and their hearts...and that they would have one leader...the Messiah..That it was Jesus Christ...so they are still working over those misinterpretations of scripture..which is most was also a part of GODS PURPOSE.....

Fleshly Jews....following a fleshly agenda..Not spiritual..as they cannot see Gods son..

Bad Figs? Compare Jeremiah 24 with Ezekiel 22

Or perhaps even this scripture..
Ezekiel 36:5....Remember when the Tribe of Judah and the Edomites were united...when after the war..where Edom lost..the  Edomites were foced to circumcise into the Tribe of Judah. by rule of King John Hyracanus...thus perverting the Tribe of Israel...Could these be the Bad Figs of Jeremiah 24? .

Revelation 18 tells us that Jerusalem became the haunt of devils in the end times...be sure to pay attention to verse 24...the Jews who are not the true Jews..but are a synagogue of Satan...

Global plan?
Jerusalem?
Left Behind Eschatology that makes Israel and the Jews supreme..

Satan doesn't hang at the bars..he already has them..But Christ did..in order to save them..

Satan is in the church...trying to destroy it...just as he was in the times of Christ..when he perverted the Hebrew religion with the Teachings of the Elders...which today..is supposedly the Babylon Talmud....

The Harlot of Babylon seems to be coming through the Christian church...Christ and the disciples warned us that this was happening even in their time..

raggthyme

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #9 on: Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 18:58:13 »

REMEMBER WE WERE TOLD THAT THIS WOULD HAPPEN..AND EVEN THE ELECT WOULD BE DECEIVED..

The bible said that Christ will not come until there be a great falling away>>I think that has happened today..and you will too if you listen to this anointed Christian pastor..



there will be no Temple of God built in Israel..that is of God..

THINK....If God supported a Temple..that would be used to sacrifice goats for sin...then there was no need to send his son to die for the sins of mankind..There are not two gospels..One for Jews..and one for the rest of us...Therefore..its impossible for any Temple of Palestine/Israel to be of God.


I agree wholeheartedly with the second part of the comment above. But I thought the falling away spoken of was what Hebrews 6 was dealing with:

   
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses [was faithful] in all his house. For this [man] was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some [man]; but he that built all things [is] God. And Moses verily [was] faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.


It seems from these verses that the falling away was a defection from the gospel of grace and back into Judaism, there were even false teachers among them denying the Lord who bought them. John says they went out from them,  those antichrists who were denying that Jesus is the Christ. By the magnitude of this defection (many antichrists have come) he said they knew it was the last hour. 1 John 2
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 01:12:01 by raggthyme »

thethinker

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #10 on: Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 14:28:51 »

REMEMBER WE WERE TOLD THAT THIS WOULD HAPPEN..AND EVEN THE ELECT WOULD BE DECEIVED..

The bible said that Christ will not come until there be a great falling away>>I think that has happened today..and you will too if you listen to this anointed Christian pastor..



there will be no Temple of God built in Israel..that is of God..

THINK....If God supported a Temple..that would be used to sacrifice goats for sin...then there was no need to send his son to die for the sins of mankind..There are not two gospels..One for Jews..and one for the rest of us...Therefore..its impossible for any Temple of Palestine/Israel to be of God.



I agree wholeheartedly with the second part of the comment above. But I thought the falling away spoken of was what Hebrews 6 was dealing with:

   
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses [was faithful] in all his house. For this [man] was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some [man]; but he that built all things [is] God. And Moses verily [was] faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.


It seems from these verses that the falling away was a defection from the gospel of grace and back into Judaism, there were even false teachers among them denying the Lord who bought them. John says they went out from them,  those antichrists who were denying that Jesus is the Christ. By the magnitude of this defection (many antichrists have come) he said they knew it was the last hour. 1 John 2


Hebrews 6 was dealing with the falling away exactly as you have said. The falling away was to occur at the very end. That they were at the very end is confirmed in 10:37,

37for yet a very very little, He who is coming will come, and will not tarry;

You're pretty sharp raggthyme!

thinker

EdwardGoodie

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #11 on: Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 14:43:49 »
manna for both Raggthyme and thethinker for sticking to Scriptures...

thethinker

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #12 on: Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 14:45:40 »
manna for both Raggthyme and thethinker for sticking to Scriptures...

Manna back to you!

thinker

raggthyme

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #13 on: Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 17:03:10 »

REMEMBER WE WERE TOLD THAT THIS WOULD HAPPEN..AND EVEN THE ELECT WOULD BE DECEIVED..

The bible said that Christ will not come until there be a great falling away>>I think that has happened today..and you will too if you listen to this anointed Christian pastor..



there will be no Temple of God built in Israel..that is of God..

THINK....If God supported a Temple..that would be used to sacrifice goats for sin...then there was no need to send his son to die for the sins of mankind..There are not two gospels..One for Jews..and one for the rest of us...Therefore..its impossible for any Temple of Palestine/Israel to be of God.



I agree wholeheartedly with the second part of the comment above. But I thought the falling away spoken of was what Hebrews 6 was dealing with:

   
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses [was faithful] in all his house. For this [man] was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some [man]; but he that built all things [is] God. And Moses verily [was] faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.


It seems from these verses that the falling away was a defection from the gospel of grace and back into Judaism, there were even false teachers among them denying the Lord who bought them. John says they went out from them,  those antichrists who were denying that Jesus is the Christ. By the magnitude of this defection (many antichrists have come) he said they knew it was the last hour. 1 John 2


Hebrews 6 was dealing with the falling away exactly as you have said. The falling away was to occur at the very end. That they were at the very end is confirmed in 10:37,

37for yet a very very little, He who is coming will come, and will not tarry;

You're pretty sharp raggthyme!

thinker



I'm actually a cheater of sorts.. sometimes I feel a little like John Nash (Beautiful Mind) cos when I'm reading the Scriptures certain words almost pop off the page, like they're beckoning me to look into them more. So then I go to Blue Letter Bible and type in the words to see how they are used within the context of other verses. So much I never saw before! It's been an eye opening experience for me to lay down my deeply-rooted, dispensational theology and let the Scriptures interpret themselves. PLUS, I've learned a lot from certain members of this forum. I'm just a sponge, really.

Offline asachild

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 170
  • Manna: 5
    • View Profile
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #14 on: Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 23:51:37 »
Quote
If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church...

Is 43:5 -
"Fear not, for I am with you: I will bring your descendants from the east, And gather you from the west; I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not keep them back!' Bring My sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth..."

Ez. 37:21
"Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: 'Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land: 'and I will  make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel: and one king shall be king over them all: they shall no longer be divided into two kingdoms again."

May 14th, 1948

God is not done with his beloved Israel. 

Regards,
AsAChild

EdwardGoodie

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #15 on: Thu Jan 26, 2012 - 10:17:23 »
Quote
If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church...


Is 43:5 -
"Fear not, for I am with you: I will bring your descendants from the east, And gather you from the west; I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not keep them back!' Bring My sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth..."

Ez. 37:21
"Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: 'Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land: 'and I will  make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel: and one king shall be king over them all: they shall no longer be divided into two kingdoms again."

May 14th, 1948

God is not done with his beloved Israel. 

Regards,
AsAChild


Like I said before, If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church... There will never again be a return to the old covenant physical temple system.  Christ came to fulfill the Scriptures and to introduce the new covenant. 

A return to the types and shadows system tramples upon the blood of Jesus Christ and His FINAL sacrifice!

You do understand why Edgar Whisenant wrote his book, right?  He took that same 1948 date and added a 40-year generation on to it...(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_C._Whisenant)

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14274
  • Manna: 189
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #16 on: Thu Jan 26, 2012 - 10:45:26 »
Quote
Like I said before, If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church... There will never again be a return to the old covenant physical temple system.  Christ came to fulfill the Scriptures and to introduce the new covenant. 
EG, your vision is so limited. 

Every physical promise God made to physical decendants of Jacob WILL be phyiscally fulfilled. 

Many may have an application to the church, whether physical or spiritual, but not all of them.

And again you keep saying that physical fulfilment goes back to the Mosaic covenant. Who do you think the New Covenant was promised to - to gentiles or to the decendants of Jacob?  (clue: Jer 31.31)

Isa 43.5 WILL be accomplished physically. For Jews. In the New Covenant.

BTW, if it is NOT accomplished, if there are not enough physical Jews who believe the New Covenant in and around Jerusalem to cry out "Baruch Haba B'shem Adonai!" [blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord] Jesus will NOT return to earth.

Matt 23.37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!
38 See, your house is left to you desolate.
39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’

EdwardGoodie

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #17 on: Thu Jan 26, 2012 - 11:20:04 »
Quote
Like I said before, If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church... There will never again be a return to the old covenant physical temple system.  Christ came to fulfill the Scriptures and to introduce the new covenant. 
EG, your vision is so limited. 

Every physical promise God made to physical decendants of Jacob WILL be phyiscally fulfilled. 

Many may have an application to the church, whether physical or spiritual, but not all of them.

And again you keep saying that physical fulfilment goes back to the Mosaic covenant. Who do you think the New Covenant was promised to - to gentiles or to the decendants of Jacob?  (clue: Jer 31.31)

Isa 43.5 WILL be accomplished physically. For Jews. In the New Covenant.

BTW, if it is NOT accomplished, if there are not enough physical Jews who believe the New Covenant in and around Jerusalem to cry out "Baruch Haba B'shem Adonai!" [blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord] Jesus will NOT return to earth.

Matt 23.37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!
38 See, your house is left to you desolate.
39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14274
  • Manna: 189
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #18 on: Thu Jan 26, 2012 - 11:49:53 »
Quote from: EdwardGoodie
DaveW,

Help me to understand you:

Yes or no, do you believe that another physical temple will be rebuilt and the old covenant system re-established?
That is 2 questions. (or more)
Yes, I believe that at some point a physical temple will be built, inhabited by the anti-messiah.

And it is possible a fourth temple will be built for Yeshua(Jesus) to reign from during the Millenium/Messianic Kingdom.

Will the Mosaic covenant sacrifices be re-established - No. At least not the sin offerings or the Yom Kippur sacrifices.  It is possible that peace offerings and thank offerings may be established in a New Covenant order, but I am not sure about that.

Quote
Do you realize how many OT Scriptures are used and applied to the church - several hundred, all of which were promises to Israel!
Of course I do.  But that list is far from exhasutive. There are many (like the actual boundaries of The Land from Josh 1) that really have no application to the church.  It WILL be fulfilled to the Jewish people. (right up to the river Euphrates in Iraq)

Quote
And if you believe this covenant has not yet come to pass, please explain to me why the INSPIRED author of Hebrews uses that covenant to apply to the Hebrew CHRISTIANS in Heb 8:7-13 AND Heb 10:15-18?
It has come to pass in part, but not in full.   As Paul writes in Rom 11, ALL Israel shall be saved. Including all (currently) unbelieving Jews.
Quote
Why do you think Peter's preaching at Pentecost was to the whole house of Israel?
His words were to those gathered there (observant Jews from the diaspora) and for us thousands of years later. In that way his words would EVENTUALLY reach the entire house of Israel.
Quote
And in regard to who is the "you," you were very close.  It was the 1st century Jews of Jerusalem, just as it was described as being in their generation...
Except HE has not returned YET.  He will when that happens. Then is when that 4th temple will be set up (or a cleansed 3rd) for HIM to reign physically over the whole earth for 1000 years.

EdwardGoodie

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #19 on: Thu Jan 26, 2012 - 11:59:27 »

That is 2 questions. (or more)
Yes, I believe that at some point a physical temple will be built, inhabited by the anti-messiah.

And it is possible a fourth temple will be built for Yeshua(Jesus) to reign from during the Millenium/Messianic Kingdom.

Will the Mosaic covenant sacrifices be re-established - No. At least not the sin offerings or the Yom Kippur sacrifices.  It is possible that peace offerings and thank offerings may be established in a New Covenant order, but I am not sure about that.

Quote
Do you realize how many OT Scriptures are used and applied to the church - several hundred, all of which were promises to Israel!
Of course I do.  But that list is far from exhasutive. There are many (like the actual boundaries of The Land from Josh 1) that really have no application to the church.  It WILL be fulfilled to the Jewish people. (right up to the river Euphrates in Iraq)

Quote
And if you believe this covenant has not yet come to pass, please explain to me why the INSPIRED author of Hebrews uses that covenant to apply to the Hebrew CHRISTIANS in Heb 8:7-13 AND Heb 10:15-18?
It has come to pass in part, but not in full.   As Paul writes in Rom 11, ALL Israel shall be saved. Including all (currently) unbelieving Jews.
Quote
Why do you think Peter's preaching at Pentecost was to the whole house of Israel?
His words were to those gathered there (observant Jews from the diaspora) and for us thousands of years later. In that way his words would EVENTUALLY reach the entire house of Israel.
Quote
And in regard to who is the "you," you were very close.  It was the 1st century Jews of Jerusalem, just as it was described as being in their generation...
Except HE has not returned YET.  He will when that happens. Then is when that 4th temple will be set up (or a cleansed 3rd) for HIM to reign physically over the whole earth for 1000 years.

Okay, now we are getting somewhere...I know this is probably an impossible task but I would like to go through each of your responses one by one.  Since you know that I must have Scriptural support for each of my assertions, I will hold you to that same standard.

So, off we go on to your first answer...what Scriptures do you use to support the building of another physical temple post-AD70?

You, of course, may withdraw at any time, especially given the your recent circumstances...

raggthyme

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #20 on: Thu Jan 26, 2012 - 12:05:08 »
DaveW, you said:

"And again you keep saying that physical fulfilment goes back to the Mosaic covenant. Who do you think the New Covenant was promised to - to gentiles or to the decendants of Jacob?  (clue: Jer 31.31)

Isa 43.5 WILL be accomplished physically. For Jews. In the New Covenant."

Isn't the fact that the remnant of Israelites in the first century were saved enough to fulfill God's promise to Israel?

Paul said even in his present day there was a remnant, and so God had not cast off His people or His promises to them!

Paul quotes Isaiah saying, "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant shall be saved."

So how is God's promise to His beloved Israel not fulfilled in all those Jews added to the church in Acts?
« Last Edit: Thu Jan 26, 2012 - 16:40:21 by raggthyme »

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14274
  • Manna: 189
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #21 on: Thu Jan 26, 2012 - 12:22:00 »
So, off we go on to your first answer...what Scriptures do you use to support the building of another physical temple post-AD70?

You, of course, may withdraw at any time, especially given the your recent circumstances...
2 thes 2.3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.

I understand as a preterist you think that happened in 70. I do not. Therefore a 3rd temple HAS to be built for him to reign from.

EdwardGoodie

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #22 on: Thu Jan 26, 2012 - 12:56:48 »
I'm sorry, Dave.  I should have been more specific.  I meant what OLD TESTAMENT Scriptures speak of this rebuilt temple.

We can argue about 2 Thessalonians all week I suppose.  You say it does NOT apply that first century church and I say it does.  Furthermore, as it has been correctly presented somewhere else, it is the present tense that is spoken of:

2Th 2:3  let not any one deceive you in any manner, because--if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed--the son of the destruction,
2Th 2:4  who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God-- the day doth not come.

I guess it all depends upon who Paul was writing to.  The normal futurist understanding IGNORES any relevance of Paul's letter to the very church that he wrote to (2 Thess 1:1) - you know, those who become an example to all the believers in FIRST CENTURY Macedonia and in Achaia (1 Thess 1:7).

BTW, since you believe 2 Thess was written to you and all other Christians, can you tell me when and where it was that Paul told you these things beforehand?  Isn't it just plain logic to assume that Paul is speaking only to the 1st century Thessalonians? (rhetorical question)

2 Thessalonians 2:5 - Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  


But, please, I am just interested in the OT Scriptures that speak of a future building or temple of some kind.



Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14274
  • Manna: 189
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #23 on: Thu Jan 26, 2012 - 13:15:52 »
Quote
But, please, I am just interested in the OT Scriptures that speak of a future building or temple of some kind.
Not much there but Ezek 41 and 42 has the prophet measuring the Temple and its dimensions are different than either Solomon's temple or Ezra/Nehemiah's, even with the Herodian rebuild.

So which Temple was it he measured?  Not proof positive but it lends itself to a future version after what was standing was razed.

thethinker

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #24 on: Thu Jan 26, 2012 - 14:26:13 »
I'm sorry, Dave.  I should have been more specific.  I meant what OLD TESTAMENT Scriptures speak of this rebuilt temple.

We can argue about 2 Thessalonians all week I suppose.  You say it does NOT apply that first century church and I say it does.  Furthermore, as it has been correctly presented somewhere else, it is the present tense that is spoken of:

2Th 2:3  let not any one deceive you in any manner, because--if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed--the son of the destruction,
2Th 2:4  who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God-- the day doth not come.

I guess it all depends upon who Paul was writing to.  The normal futurist understanding IGNORES any relevance of Paul's letter to the very church that he wrote to (2 Thess 1:1) - you know, those who become an example to all the believers in FIRST CENTURY Macedonia and in Achaia (1 Thess 1:7).

BTW, since you believe 2 Thess was written to you and all other Christians, can you tell me when and where it was that Paul told you these things beforehand?  Isn't it just plain logic to assume that Paul is speaking only to the 1st century Thessalonians? (rhetorical question)

2 Thessalonians 2:5 - Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  


But, please, I am just interested in the OT Scriptures that speak of a future building or temple of some kind.




Yes and Paul said that the man of sin "has sat down" in the temple.

Quote
who IS OPPOSING (presently) and IS RAISING (presently) himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God , HATH SAT DOWN (past) shewing himself off that he is God -- Young's Literal translation

All parentheses mine

The man of sin already existed and was positioning himself at that time but he had not yet been revealed. Paul knew of his identity by special revelation.

thinker

Offline lecoop

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1451
  • Manna: 25
    • View Profile
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #25 on: Thu Jan 26, 2012 - 18:18:46 »
I admire dispensationalists the attempt to make Israel (and not human history) the central focus of eschatology.  

They at least realize a certain amount of impact in regard to BIBLICAL history and not general history.  They seem to understand that the Bible is a book of redemption and that its final purpose is to redeem Israel.

However, what they do not understand is that the Bible’s whole emphasis is BIBLICAL in nature.  It is not a historical account of the world; it is a historical account of Israel – that is quite the difference!

It is in Jesus Christ that all Scripture is fulfilled.  Jesus Christ was Israel’s Messiah.  These dispensationalists seem to understand the type/anti-type structure in regard to Israel and Jesus Christ, yet, at the same time, it get discarded in favour of a church parenthesis.

The physical temple system becomes the spiritual temple system IN CHRIST.
The Cornerstone of the spiritual temple IS CHRIST.  We, Christians, become the lively stones of that REBUILT temple.
The physical city of Jerusalem becomes the spiritual New Jerusalem – not some 1,500 mile square Borg cube.

And also along the way, somehow the whole idea of BIBLICAL history is replaced by human history.  Somehow, the LAST DAYS, first spoken as referring TO ISRAEL are passed on to planet Earth and the material universe.

The entire plan of God was to redeem Israel, and He did.  Once Israel received its promise, others could be added in and are, even as of today, added to the kingdom of God through faith in the FINISHED work of Jesus Christ.

Old covenant Israel lived and died.  From it came the Israel of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I admire dispensationalism for at least understand some of the BIBLICAL aspects of the history of the shadow Israel.  A full understanding of Jesus Christ being its anti-type has not yet been realized by these folks, our friends in Jesus Christ.

If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church...


Ezekiel 40 to the end of the book of Ezekiel.

I forgot to mention, it is DANIEL's 70th week, not Paul's 70th week. Daniel is a HEBREW!

Coop

EdwardGoodie

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #26 on: Thu Jan 26, 2012 - 23:47:15 »
Quote
But, please, I am just interested in the OT Scriptures that speak of a future building or temple of some kind.
Not much there but Ezek 41 and 42 has the prophet measuring the Temple and its dimensions are different than either Solomon's temple or Ezra/Nehemiah's, even with the Herodian rebuild.

So which Temple was it he measured?  Not proof positive but it lends itself to a future version after what was standing was razed.

That's not really much to go on.  I was expecting a whole bunch of rebuilding the temple verses.

Offline n2thelight

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 759
  • Manna: 34
    • View Profile
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #27 on: Fri Jan 27, 2012 - 04:04:01 »
I admire dispensationalists the attempt to make Israel (and not human history) the central focus of eschatology. 

They at least realize a certain amount of impact in regard to BIBLICAL history and not general history.  They seem to understand that the Bible is a book of redemption and that its final purpose is to redeem Israel.

However, what they do not understand is that the Bible’s whole emphasis is BIBLICAL in nature.  It is not a historical account of the world; it is a historical account of Israel – that is quite the difference!

It is in Jesus Christ that all Scripture is fulfilled.  Jesus Christ was Israel’s Messiah.  These dispensationalists seem to understand the type/anti-type structure in regard to Israel and Jesus Christ, yet, at the same time, it get discarded in favour of a church parenthesis.

The physical temple system becomes the spiritual temple system IN CHRIST.
The Cornerstone of the spiritual temple IS CHRIST.  We, Christians, become the lively stones of that REBUILT temple.
The physical city of Jerusalem becomes the spiritual New Jerusalem – not some 1,500 mile square Borg cube.

And also along the way, somehow the whole idea of BIBLICAL history is replaced by human history.  Somehow, the LAST DAYS, first spoken as referring TO ISRAEL are passed on to planet Earth and the material universe.

The entire plan of God was to redeem Israel, and He did.  Once Israel received its promise, others could be added in and are, even as of today, added to the kingdom of God through faith in the FINISHED work of Jesus Christ.

Old covenant Israel lived and died.  From it came the Israel of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I admire dispensationalism for at least understand some of the BIBLICAL aspects of the history of the shadow Israel.  A full understanding of Jesus Christ being its anti-type has not yet been realized by these folks, our friends in Jesus Christ.

If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church...


Who is Israel?

Offline lecoop

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1451
  • Manna: 25
    • View Profile
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #28 on: Fri Jan 27, 2012 - 08:50:01 »
Quote
If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church...


Is 43:5 -
"Fear not, for I am with you: I will bring your descendants from the east, And gather you from the west; I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not keep them back!' Bring My sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth..."

Ez. 37:21
"Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: 'Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land: 'and I will  make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel: and one king shall be king over them all: they shall no longer be divided into two kingdoms again."

May 14th, 1948

God is not done with his beloved Israel. 

Regards,
AsAChild


Like I said before, If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church... There will never again be a return to the old covenant physical temple system.  Christ came to fulfill the Scriptures and to introduce the new covenant. 

A return to the types and shadows system tramples upon the blood of Jesus Christ and His FINAL sacrifice!

You do understand why Edgar Whisenant wrote his book, right?  He took that same 1948 date and added a 40-year generation on to it...(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_C._Whisenant)


Still with "head in the sand" syndrome: HOW IN THE WORLD can you equate the PHYSICAL MOVEMENT of Israel back the holy land, with the spiritual kingdom established after Christ's resurrection? You are trying to mix apples and oranges.

Sorry, but there are TOO MANY scriptures that disagree with you and which you ignore.
God never says He will be pleased with Israel resuming their Old Testament sacrifices - but He does say they WILL BEGIN AGAIN. Of course, with your head the the sand, it is hard to see.  What on earth will you do with Ezekiel's temple? Tear it out of your bible?

What about the temple Paul tells us the man of sin will enter and declare he is God? What about the SAME temple that John was told to measure? PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND, repent of your unbelief and start believing!

Coop

Offline lecoop

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1451
  • Manna: 25
    • View Profile
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #29 on: Fri Jan 27, 2012 - 08:57:52 »
So, off we go on to your first answer...what Scriptures do you use to support the building of another physical temple post-AD70?

You, of course, may withdraw at any time, especially given the your recent circumstances...
2 thes 2.3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.

I understand as a preterist you think that happened in 70. I do not. Therefore a 3rd temple HAS to be built for him to reign from.

Also, JOhn, in a vision of about 95 AD was told to MEASURE the temple and count how many worshipers were there. Since many here have "head in the sand" syndrome, you have to rewrite history and declare that Revelation was written PRE-70 AD so this temple could fit King Harod's temple. Sorry, it won't work! There are too many other scriptures that totally blow preterism out of the water. In fact, there has NEVER BEEN a temple seen like Ezekiel's millennium temple. That is FUTURE. (You do understand that word?)

Coop

Offline lecoop

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1451
  • Manna: 25
    • View Profile
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #30 on: Fri Jan 27, 2012 - 09:10:34 »
Quote
But, please, I am just interested in the OT Scriptures that speak of a future building or temple of some kind.
Not much there but Ezek 41 and 42 has the prophet measuring the Temple and its dimensions are different than either Solomon's temple or Ezra/Nehemiah's, even with the Herodian rebuild.

So which Temple was it he measured?  Not proof positive but it lends itself to a future version after what was standing was razed.

That's not really much to go on.  I was expecting a whole bunch of rebuilding the temple verses.

TAKE YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND! Several chapters are not enough verses for you?

Ezekiel 47

 1Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.

 2Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.

 3And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.

 4Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.

 5Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.

 6And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.

 7Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.

 8Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

If your head was not buried in the sand, you would understand this is FUTURE. This may be a difficult word for you, so what this means is: IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED YET.

This is speaking of the millennium temple that you don't believe in, since you don't believe in any "thousand years."  This is just one whole chapter of Revelation that you BLOW OFF.

Whether or not this is the same temple that the man of sin enters to declare he is God, remains to be seen.

Coop

daq

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #31 on: Fri Jan 27, 2012 - 14:15:48 »
Quote
If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church...


Is 43:5 -
"Fear not, for I am with you: I will bring your descendants from the east, And gather you from the west; I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not keep them back!' Bring My sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth..."

Ez. 37:21
"Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: 'Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land: 'and I will  make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel: and one king shall be king over them all: they shall no longer be divided into two kingdoms again."

May 14th, 1948

God is not done with his beloved Israel.  

Regards,
AsAChild


Like I said before, If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church... There will never again be a return to the old covenant physical temple system.  Christ came to fulfill the Scriptures and to introduce the new covenant.  

A return to the types and shadows system tramples upon the blood of Jesus Christ and His FINAL sacrifice!

You do understand why Edgar Whisenant wrote his book, right?  He took that same 1948 date and added a 40-year generation on to it...(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_C._Whisenant)


Still with "head in the sand" syndrome: HOW IN THE WORLD can you equate the PHYSICAL MOVEMENT of Israel back the holy land, with the spiritual kingdom established after Christ's resurrection? You are trying to mix apples and oranges.

Sorry, but there are TOO MANY scriptures that disagree with you and which you ignore.
God never says He will be pleased with Israel resuming their Old Testament sacrifices - but He does say they WILL BEGIN AGAIN. Of course, with your head the the sand, it is hard to see.  What on earth will you do with Ezekiel's temple? Tear it out of your bible?

What about the temple Paul tells us the man of sin will enter and declare he is God? What about the SAME temple that John was told to measure? PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND, repent of your unbelief and start believing!

Coop


So, off we go on to your first answer...what Scriptures do you use to support the building of another physical temple post-AD70?

You, of course, may withdraw at any time, especially given the your recent circumstances...

2 thes 2.3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.

I understand as a preterist you think that happened in 70. I do not. Therefore a 3rd temple HAS to be built for him to reign from.


Also, JOhn, in a vision of about 95 AD was told to MEASURE the temple and count how many worshipers were there. Since many here have "head in the sand" syndrome, you have to rewrite history and declare that Revelation was written PRE-70 AD so this temple could fit King Harod's temple. Sorry, it won't work! There are too many other scriptures that totally blow preterism out of the water. In fact, there has NEVER BEEN a temple seen like Ezekiel's millennium temple. That is FUTURE. (You do understand that word?)

Coop


THE EZEKIEL TEMPLE IS THE BODY OF CHRIST

John 2:19-21 KJV
19. Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21. But he spake of the temple of his body.

Amos 3:7-8 KJV
7. Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
8. The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord God hath spoken, who can but prophesy?

Ezekiel 43:6-10 KJV
6. And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
7. And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
8. In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
9. Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.
10. Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

Hebrews 10:5-10 KJV
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared (GSN#2675 katartizo) me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Original Strong's Ref. #2675
Romanized  katartizo
Pronounced kat-ar-tid'-zo
from GSN2596 and a derivative of GSN0739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:
KJV--fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect(-ly join together), prepare, restore.

"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou fitted-framed me"...

Repent ...
 ::smile::

Offline lecoop

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1451
  • Manna: 25
    • View Profile
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #32 on: Fri Jan 27, 2012 - 15:02:50 »
Quote
If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church...


Is 43:5 -
"Fear not, for I am with you: I will bring your descendants from the east, And gather you from the west; I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not keep them back!' Bring My sons from afar, and My daughters from the ends of the earth..."

Ez. 37:21
"Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: 'Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land: 'and I will  make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel: and one king shall be king over them all: they shall no longer be divided into two kingdoms again."

May 14th, 1948

God is not done with his beloved Israel.  

Regards,
AsAChild


Like I said before, If only they would allow themselves to believe the NT apostles and accept the fact that the OT promises to Israel are fulfilled completely in Jesus Christ and HIS church... There will never again be a return to the old covenant physical temple system.  Christ came to fulfill the Scriptures and to introduce the new covenant.  

A return to the types and shadows system tramples upon the blood of Jesus Christ and His FINAL sacrifice!

You do understand why Edgar Whisenant wrote his book, right?  He took that same 1948 date and added a 40-year generation on to it...(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_C._Whisenant)


Still with "head in the sand" syndrome: HOW IN THE WORLD can you equate the PHYSICAL MOVEMENT of Israel back the holy land, with the spiritual kingdom established after Christ's resurrection? You are trying to mix apples and oranges.

Sorry, but there are TOO MANY scriptures that disagree with you and which you ignore.
God never says He will be pleased with Israel resuming their Old Testament sacrifices - but He does say they WILL BEGIN AGAIN. Of course, with your head the the sand, it is hard to see.  What on earth will you do with Ezekiel's temple? Tear it out of your bible?

What about the temple Paul tells us the man of sin will enter and declare he is God? What about the SAME temple that John was told to measure? PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND, repent of your unbelief and start believing!

Coop


So, off we go on to your first answer...what Scriptures do you use to support the building of another physical temple post-AD70?

You, of course, may withdraw at any time, especially given the your recent circumstances...

2 thes 2.3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.

I understand as a preterist you think that happened in 70. I do not. Therefore a 3rd temple HAS to be built for him to reign from.


Also, JOhn, in a vision of about 95 AD was told to MEASURE the temple and count how many worshipers were there. Since many here have "head in the sand" syndrome, you have to rewrite history and declare that Revelation was written PRE-70 AD so this temple could fit King Harod's temple. Sorry, it won't work! There are too many other scriptures that totally blow preterism out of the water. In fact, there has NEVER BEEN a temple seen like Ezekiel's millennium temple. That is FUTURE. (You do understand that word?)

Coop


THE EZEKIEL TEMPLE IS THE BODY OF CHRIST

John 2:19-21 KJV
19. Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21. But he spake of the temple of his body.

Amos 3:7-8 KJV
7. Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
8. The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord God hath spoken, who can but prophesy?

Ezekiel 43:6-10 KJV
6. And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
7. And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
8. In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
9. Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.
10. Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

Hebrews 10:5-10 KJV
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared (GSN#2675 katartizo) me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Original Strong's Ref. #2675
Romanized  katartizo
Pronounced kat-ar-tid'-zo
from GSN2596 and a derivative of GSN0739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:
KJV--fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect(-ly join together), prepare, restore.

"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou fitted-framed me"...

Repent ...
 ::smile::


This is the silliest thing I have read yet!  What a pitiful theory of God's word!

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition [theory], which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
  (the world [theory] added because it fits this case better.

God had Ezekiel write, 8 chapters and 8443 words concerning a PHYSICAL temple, complete with measurements of the outside and inside rooms, and you BLOW IT OFF with a pitiful, silly theory that NONE OF IT MEANS WHAT IT SAYS.

Well, one day you will find out God meant what He wrote, but it will be too late. You will find yourself LEFT BEHIND in a world gone totally mad. HOw long will it take into the 70th week before you realized you have swallowed the lies of Satan hook, line and sinker?
Perhaps when the great image is erected and you are told to worship a statue or lose your head? Will that do it?  Time will tell all.

Coop




EdwardGoodie

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #33 on: Fri Jan 27, 2012 - 15:26:49 »
I find it a bit odd that you believe this temple is to be reconstructed in your millennial period with Jesus Christ on His physical throne governing your physical kingdom.  Why?  It is because of the sin offerings that are demanded by this new temple of yours.  That is why I say you and others who hold to this "theology" trample on the final offering of Jesus Christ for sin:

Eze_40:39  And in the porch of the gate were two tables on this side, and two tables on that side, to slay thereon the burnt offering and the sin offering and the trespass offering.
Eze_42:13  Then said he unto me, The north chambers and the south chambers, which are before the separate place, they be holy chambers, where the priests that approach unto the LORD shall eat the most holy things: there shall they lay the most holy things, and the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; for the place is holy.
Eze_43:19  And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord GOD, a young bullock for a sin offering.
Eze_43:21  Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.
Eze_43:22  And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.
Eze_43:25  Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
Eze_44:27  And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze_44:29  They shall eat the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs.
Eze_45:17  And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.
Eze_45:19  And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court.
Eze_45:22  And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.
Eze_45:23  And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the LORD, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering.
Eze_45:25  In the seventh month, in the fifteenth day of the month, shall he do the like in the feast of the seven days, according to the sin offering, according to the burnt offering, and according to the meat offering, and according to the oil.
Eze_46:20  Then said he unto me, This is the place where the priests shall boil the trespass offering and the sin offering, where they shall bake the meat offering; that they bear them not out into the utter court, to sanctify the people.


The physical temple system has no further part in a world where Jesus was the fulfillment of that old covenant system.  He was our final sacrifice for sin; He is our High Priest; He is the Temple and we are the lively stones of that temple.  All this, you folks shove aside to fulfill your paradigm.

daq

  • Guest
Re: I Admire Dispensationalism
« Reply #34 on: Fri Jan 27, 2012 - 15:36:10 »
THE EZEKIEL TEMPLE IS THE BODY OF CHRIST

John 2:19-21 KJV
19. Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21. But he spake of the temple of his body.

Amos 3:7-8 KJV
7. Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
8. The lion hath roared, who will not fear? the Lord God hath spoken, who can but prophesy?

Ezekiel 43:6-10 KJV
6. And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
7. And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
8. In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
9. Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.
10. Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

Hebrews 10:5-10 KJV
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared (GSN#2675 katartizo) me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Original Strong's Ref. #2675
Romanized  katartizo
Pronounced kat-ar-tid'-zo
from GSN2596 and a derivative of GSN0739; to complete thoroughly, i.e. repair (literally or figuratively) or adjust:
KJV--fit, frame, mend, (make) perfect(-ly join together), prepare, restore.

"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou fitted-framed me"...

Repent ...
 ::smile::


This is the silliest thing I have read yet!  What a pitiful theory of God's word!

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition [theory], which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
  (the world [theory] added because it fits this case better.

God had Ezekiel write, 8 chapters and 8443 words concerning a PHYSICAL temple, complete with measurements of the outside and inside rooms, and you BLOW IT OFF with a pitiful, silly theory that NONE OF IT MEANS WHAT IT SAYS.

Well, one day you will find out God meant what He wrote, but it will be too late. You will find yourself LEFT BEHIND in a world gone totally mad. HOw long will it take into the 70th week before you realized you have swallowed the lies of Satan hook, line and sinker?
Perhaps when the great image is erected and you are told to worship a statue or lose your head? Will that do it?  Time will tell all.

Coop


Ezekiel 40:1 KJV
1. In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the Lord was upon me, and brought me thither.


The year is known to be 573BC, (a year of Jubilee). Why did the prophets Zechariah and Haggai not give the command by the Word of YHWH for the Ezekiel Temple to be built when Judah returned from Babylon? The prophets Zechariah and Haggai prophesied at the time of the building of the second Temple which was later remodeled under Herod. The Ezekiel Temple was prophesied well before the return from Babylon.

Ezekiel 47:1-9 KJV
1. Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
2. Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
3. And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles.
4. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
5. Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
6. And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7. Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8. Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9. And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

John 7:37-38 KJV
37. In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

John 19:32-34 KJV
32. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
34. But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.





http://www.sheshbazzardaq.com/ezekiel-temple.html