Author Topic: If Futurism is correct, then the saints in heaven have not yet seen Jesus  (Read 3037 times)

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thethinker

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I John 3:2 Young's Literal Translation.

"beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that IF he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is...."

TO ALL,

The statement above is a conditional statement. It explicitly says that our being like Jesus AND our seeing Him as He is must be contingent upon His appearing. John used the Greek word "eav" which is the third class conditional "if." John said, "IF He shall appear we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is."

Therefore, if Jesus has not yet appeared, then the saints in heaven have not yet seen Jesus for their seeing Him as He is must be contingent upon His appearing. Yet the Futurists say that they are with Him though not yet like Him.

But how are the saints in heaven with Jesus without seeing Him? To be with Him they must see Him and to see Him He must have appeared.

Note also that John included Himself in this expectation of hope. This implies that after His resurrection Jesus had NOT appeared to the disciples in His immortal body. Otherwise John could not have included himself in hoping to see Jesus as He is for Paul said that "hope that is seen is not hope."

The word "eav" may also translated "when" because it assumes that the condition will be met. But it is inherently conditional in nature.

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raggthyme

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There are no saints in heaven yet son [John 3:13; 1Corinthians 15:23; 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18]


WHAAAT!!? Do the futurists here agree with that statement?


thethinker

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There are no saints in heaven yet son [John 3:13; 1Corinthians 15:23; 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18]


WHAAAT!!? Do the futurists here agree with that statement?



Raggthyme,

I am just as shocked as you that Linker said that there are no saints in heaven now. I posted this topic on another Futurist board last year and the Futurist I was engaging with (Paul) was forced to deny that there are saints in heaven now because if they are in heaven they must see Jesus. But they cannot see Jesus until He is revealed. So he denied that saints are in heaven now.

I do consider Linker's denial that saints are now in heaven a VICTORY for Preterism.

Let's suppose that Jesus' coming is still future. Paul said that He will bring with Him those that "have slept" (past tense) when He comes to raise those that "sleep" (present tense). It is clear that when He comes back He will bring with Him some saints that had been resurrected at some time PRIOR to His second coming. They are ALREADY in heaven with Him.

Paul said that each man is raised in His own tagma (or group.). So Christ will bring with Him a group of saints He had PREVIOUSLY raised when He comes to raise those who still sleep. Therefore, Linker errs in saying that there are no saints in heaven now.

Again I consider Linker's denial that saints are in heaven now a VICTORY for Preterism. I am soooo happy with this that I am going to give Linker a manna point NOT because I agree with him but because he is helping us out here and I want to reward Him

Thanks Linker! Manna for you bro!

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Offline JohnDB70X7

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It makes no difference what "futurists" agree with

What matters is the Lord's Word of truth on the subject

.... no man has gone to heaven except the One who has come down from heaven .... this One is Jesus Christ

Believe this fact


Not to make a public spectacle here...

John 3 was before the cross, Link. Before the cross no one from earth went to heaven but went to sheol which had three compartments

Luke 16:19-31 (KJV)
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Abraham's Bosom (empty since the cross of Christ)
Hell (Hades)
Gulf (Abyss) between



It is to this place that the Lord Jesus went (in Spirit) when he died on the cross

1 Peter 3:18-19 (KJV)
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;


Today you will be with me in Paradise...

He declared the victory of the cross to the lost (men in Hades and angels in the abyss) and took the saints in Abraham's Bosom to heaven that same day (3 hour period between the time of his death on the cross and the end of day which is sunset on the Hebrew calendar... in keeping with his promise to the thief on the cross... Luke 23:43 TODAY you will be with me in paradise which is heaven according to 2 Corinthians 12:4 and Revelation 2:7).

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV)
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Before the cross no man could enter heaven except the man who is from heaven Jesus Christ.

Three days after the cross he rose in bodily form from the dead and 40 days later ascended to heaven bodily. The saints in heaven are all disembodied spirits (as we will be when we who believe in Jesus die) awaiting the general resurrection when we will be reunited with our raised to eternal life bodies

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

It is very important that one understands the meaning and the context of biblical passages, Link.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 09:01:27 AM by JohnDB70X7 »
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Offline JohnDB70X7

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If there (will) be no resurrection then even Christ is not raised...

Context and perspective, Link.

Christ IS risen.

No one else is yet...

Many were raised from the dead and had to die again. Lazarus, the daughter of Jairus, the widow's son...  etc.

Messianic Jewish pastor Larry Feldman calls this a restoration rather than a resurrection.

And all the texts you can quote must include in the consideration of interpretation the overall context of the Bible and one passage does not cancel out another... both are true and the meaning must be determined...

Proverbs 26:4-5 (KJV)
4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

One does not cancel out the other nor do they contradict each other... you must determine the meaning of both in context of each.

 2 Corinthians 12:4-8 (KJV)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV)
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


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Offline JohnDB70X7

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These kinds of arguments come from a misunderstanding about the make up of mankind. And folks zero in on one aspect of human death and misapply it to all.

I am guessing Link champions "soul sleep." I apologize if I am mistaken...

The body appears to sleep in death.

The spirit leaves the body (and as 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 states) and goes directly to be with the Lord (who is seated on his Father's throne in heaven).

The soul which is a buffer between the two realities (physical and spiritual) ceases to exist.

So all three major camps are true in part. Slumber, consciously present with the Lord, and ceasing to exist all at the same time (just pertaining to the parts of the human make up respectively).
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Lehigh

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These kinds of arguments come from a misunderstanding about the make up of mankind. And folks zero in on one aspect of human death and misapply it to all.

I am guessing Link champions "soul sleep." I apologize if I am mistaken...

The body appears to sleep in death.

The spirit leaves the body (and as 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 states) and goes directly to be with the Lord (who is seated on his Father's throne in heaven).

The soul which is a buffer between the two realities (physical and spiritual) ceases to exist.

So all three major camps are true in part. Slumber, consciously present with the Lord, and ceasing to exist all at the same time (just pertaining to the parts of the human make up respectively).
Those in Hades rested until His coming in 70AD. See Daniel 12. The 7th and last trumpet is when they were raised. The angel declared that there would no longer be any delay. [Rev.10]
Christ may have preached to the spirits in prison, but they weren't raised to their heavenly abode until the 7th trumpet, some 40 years later.

Rev.11:16-19,
16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,[g]
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.

Offline JohnDB70X7

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What in Daniel 12 pray tell?
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Offline JohnDB70X7

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Daniel 12 (KJV)
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

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thethinker

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These kinds of arguments come from a misunderstanding about the make up of mankind. And folks zero in on one aspect of human death and misapply it to all.

I am guessing Link champions "soul sleep." I apologize if I am mistaken...

The body appears to sleep in death.

Uh, that which sleeps must remain in order for it to sleep. The body does NOT remain. Paul said that it is "destroyed." Therefore it does NOT sleep. It was the SOUL that slept in sheol. Sheol was cast into the lake of fire in ad70. Therefore, souls no longer "sleep." They go straight to be with the Lord in their immortal bodies.

"He who believes in Me shall NEVER die," [that is, shall never sleep in sheol].

Quote
The spirit leaves the body (and as 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 states) and goes directly to be with the Lord (who is seated on his Father's throne in heaven).

But the soul cannot see Jesus until He appears. His appearing is the condition by which the saints may see Him. So if Jesus has not yet appeared, then the saints in heaven have not yet seen Him. How could they be with Him and not see Him?

At least Linker is consistent in saying that there are no saints in heaven now. You are contradicting yourself.

Quote
The soul which is a buffer between the two realities (physical and spiritual) ceases to exist.

Explain.

Quote
So all three major camps are true in part. Slumber, consciously present with the Lord, and ceasing to exist all at the same time (just pertaining to the parts of the human make up respectively).

There you have it folks! The Futurists do not know what to do with John's condition by which men may see Jesus so they utter unintelligible nonsense. John's condition by which men may see Jesus is that He appear. Therefore, if Jesus has not yet appeared as the Futurists claim, then the saints in heaven have not yet seen Him.

I should give Linker another manna point for being honest and consistent even though I don't agree with Him. His answer was plain and simple to understand. He said, "There are no saints in heaven yet son." But JohnDB's reply is totally unintelligible.

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Offline JohnDB70X7

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These kinds of arguments come from a misunderstanding about the make up of mankind. And folks zero in on one aspect of human death and misapply it to all.

I am guessing Link champions "soul sleep." I apologize if I am mistaken...

The body appears to sleep in death.

Uh, that which sleeps must remain in order for it to sleep.

Says you.

Where's your proof, citation, or even quote from a heretic?

The body in death appears to sleep. This is why the disciples thought Jesus was referring to actual sleep when in fact he was telling his disciples Lazarus was dead. He sleeps.


Quote
It was the SOUL that slept in sheol.

Prove it.

Quote
Sheol was cast into the lake of fire in ad70.

Prove it.

Quote
Therefore, souls no longer "sleep." They go straight to be with the Lord in their immortal bodies.

Prove it.

Quote
"He who believes in Me shall NEVER die," [that is, shall never sleep in sheol].


John 11:25 (NASB95)
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,


I agree since the cross believers do not go to sheol, but as I previously stated:

"The spirit leaves the body (and as 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 states) and goes directly to be with the Lord (who is seated on his Father's throne in heaven)."

But the souls in sheol never slept. Read Luke 16:19-31 again. They were all awake.

Quote
But the soul cannot see Jesus until He appears.

Prove it.


Quote
At least Linker is consistent in saying that there are no saints in heaven now. You are contradicting yourself.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV)
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV)
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You contradict scripture. I'll go with scripture over anyone else any day.

Quote
Quote
The soul which is a buffer between the two realities (physical and spiritual) ceases to exist.

Explain.

When we settle these basic truths first then I will explain this.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 10:10:16 PM by JohnDB70X7 »
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Offline Linker

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Again .... there are no saints in the immortal state of existence yet

Many religious movements like the RCC teach this ruse

Just as Paul reveals .... "we shall not all sleep [as the dead in Christ do], but we will all be changed at the last trumpet [for believers] .... Jesus the first one to experience this transformation, and those who belong to Him at His second coming [His harpazo action] .... this is still a future event and could happen before this day is over [no one knows the dating of this event]
2Peter
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts

Offline CatHead

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Hi JohnDB70X7,
Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV)
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Your interpretation that Christ descended into Sheol and led the souls to heaven from there is not correct IN MY OPINION

Paul is analyzing Psalms 68:18 which speaks of the Lord ascending to heaven, presumably from earth, but is ambiguous as to why the Lord must ascend to heaven in the first place? 

Psa_68:18  Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Normally the Psalmists are clear that the Lord is in Heaven and the Earth is the domain of men...such as seen in Psalm 115:16

Psa 115:16  The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

However Psalms 68:18 presents a curious problem...the Lord is not in heaven, but is ascending to heaven from somewhere beneath.  Paul is just addressing the problem created by Psalms 68:18 using the simplest of reasoning.  If the Lord (in Psalms 68:18) is ascending to heaven, he must have descended from heaven at some point prior to his ascension.....

Neither Psalms 68:18 nor Ephesians 4:8-10 mention Sheol, however Paul does use the phrase 'the lowest parts of the earth' to describe the place to which the Lord descended.  And since Sheol is described as being in the 'lower parts of the earth' in a couple of scriptures, most interpretations believe as you do, that Paul is speaking of Christ's soul descending into Sheol after his death...however this is problematic for a couple of reasons.....

Christ's soul did not descend into Sheol, he descended into the abyss-the bottomless pit of Revelation 20:3.  The proof is in Romans 10:7, the phrase 'the deep' is taken from the greek 'abussos'....the same word used in Revelation that is translated as 'bottomless pit'

Rom 10:7  Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

I see from your chart that you understand that the 'abyss' is a different location than 'sheol', and does not contain the souls of men.  There are no 'captive saints' in the abyss for the Lord to lead out of there...so knowing that the Lord did not descend into Sheol upon his death, but only to the abyss, as the only scriptural proof I've ever seen states...your interpretation of Ephesians 4:8-10 becomes very problematic.  If you have any proof that the Lord also descended into Sheol as you state above then I'd love to hear it. Ephesians 4:8-10 cannot itself be offered as proof though, because there is a more legitimate interpretation of the phrase 'the lower parts of the earth' as I will show later

Christ did not ascend to Heaven from Sheol he ascended to heaven from the earth
Acts 1:9.... 


David had not ascended to heaven after Christ's ascension.....if Christ did in fact lead the dead saints directly from Sheol into Heaven, then David wasn't among them...

Act 2:34  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand


It is my belief that Paul was not speaking of Christ's descent into Sheol upon his death in Ephesians 4:8-10, but is instead speaking of his descent from heaven to earth in Ephesians 4:9.  Christ descended from heaven by being born to Mary, pretty much everyone knows this.  The phrase 'the lowest parts of the earth' can also refer to the womb as seen in Psalms 139. 

Psa 139:13  For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14  I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
Psa 139:15  My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.


Eph 4:9  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Quite simply, in summary, Paul is addressing the problem created by Psalms 68:18 as to why the Lord is ascending to heaven in the verse, instead of being in heaven like he is normally pictured.  He is saying that Jesus Christ first descended from heaven into the womb of Mary and then later returned to heaven.  His charge was to set free the captives, so jumping to the conclusion that the captives were the 'souls of the faithful in Sheol' is quite a stretch....the captives that he preached to and ultimately provided a path to freedom for were the living not the dead!

Luk_4:18  The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,



2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV)
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You contradict scripture. I'll go with scripture over anyone else any day.

Your interpretation of 2 Corinthians 5 creates a contradiction.  If the ' house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.'  is speaking of an 'immortal body' that a believer receives promptly upon his death then there would be many men that possessed immortality at the time of the writing of 1 Timothy.  Christ alone has immortality though, and NO MAN CAN SEE HIM until the time of his appearing to answer the OP's posit.  So I'm a futurist and I agree with Linker's position in this case.....

1Ti 6:14  That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15  Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.


The 'house not made with hands' of 2 Corinthians 5 that we as believers long to be clothed with is Jesus Christ, not an inanimate 'immortal body' that's waiting on us.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 isn't speaking of physical death, it is speaking of 'death to self' or lack thereof.  The more we deny ourselves the more we are present with the Lord in this life. 

Have a great day,

Cat






Offline JohnDB70X7

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Look at the chart again.

SHEOL is over all three divisions.

The abussos is the great gulf between hades and Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:26).
The abussos is the destination of the fallen angels (Luke 8:31, Jude 6, Revelation 20:3)
It is the inside pit of Isaiah 14:15

And as you pointed out (Romans 10: 7) where Jesus went to preach to the lost souls (1 Peter 3:19) ...

And then he took the captivity (Abraham's Bosom) captive to ascend to the highest heaven (Ephesians 4:8-10)
 
 
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thethinker

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JohnDB said:
Quote
The body appears to sleep in death.[/b]

I replied:
Quote
Uh, that which sleeps must remain in order for it to sleep.

Then John DB:
Quote
Says you.

Where's your proof, citation, or even quote from a heretic?

I already gave it to you. Paul said that the outer man is "DESTROYED." You cut n' pasted my statement.

Quote
The body in death appears to sleep. This is why the disciples thought Jesus was referring to actual sleep when in fact he was telling his disciples Lazarus was dead. He sleeps.

Soul sleep my friend! Before the cross they had to sleep in sheol. They could not go to God because Jesus had not died for their sins yet. Jesus said, "No man has ascended into heaven." So they had to sleep in sheol before the resurrection. Sheol has been cast into the lake of fire and so the people of God don't go there now. They are "caught up" (raptured) to their body which is from heaven.

I said:
Quote
It was the SOUL that slept in sheol.

You replied:
Quote
Prove it.

And you claim that you have been "seriously" studying the bible since 1987.

I said:
Quote
Therefore, souls no longer "sleep." They go straight to be with the Lord in their immortal bodies.

You replied:
Quote
Prove it.

I already have. Paul said that our outer man is being "destroyed." He said that when this "tent" is dissolved we will put on our tabernacle from heaven so we won't be found naked. He said that  "death is swallowed up" at this time (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5)

You said:
Quote
But the souls in sheol never slept. Read Luke 16:19-31 again. They were all awake.

You're committing the Fallacy of Generalization. Most souls did sleep but there were exceptions. Jesus took the thief to Paradise (the garden) which was a segment in sheol for some of the righteous saints. Souls did not sleep there.

I said:
Quote
But the soul cannot see Jesus until He appears.

You replied:
Quote
Prove it.

I already have. John said that His appearing was the condition by which they would both be like Him and see Him as He is." Yet you say that the saints in heaven see Him without that condition being met. The funny thing about it is that you believe that they see Him though they're not yet like Him. But John said that BOTH their being like Him and their seeing Him was contingent upon His appearing.

You said:
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We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

You contradict scripture. I'll go with scripture over anyone else any day.

You're taking Paul out of context. He had just said that our outer man will be destroyed and when that happens we will be clothed in the body from heaven. He said that we won't be found naked.

Therefore, to be absent from the earthly body is to be present with the Lord in the body from heaven. There is no disembodied sate!

thinker