Author Topic: If Futurism is correct, then the saints in heaven have not yet seen Jesus  (Read 2985 times)

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Offline CatHead

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Hi JohnDB70X7,

The abussos is the great gulf between hades and Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:26).
The 'great gulf' is a fictitious place....a creation of Hebrew mythology. It's origin isn't from Scripture, but from Rabbinical Commentary.....

Midrash on Coheleth(Ecc. vii. 14)
“God hath set the one
against the other, that is Gehenna and Paradise.
How far are they distant? A hand-breadth

Lehigh

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Cathead said,
Quote
Furthermore, Abraham's bosom, like the 'great gulf' is a concoction of Jewish folklore and not a real place.  In the same way that the 'Tartarus' of 2 Peter 2:4 is a concoction of Greek mythology and not a real place.

The face value interpretation of the 'Rich man and Lazarus' parable represents the pharasee's understanding of what occurs in the afterlife.  There beliefs on the afterlife can be reconstructed from the writings of Josephus, and you can see that their beliefs are identical to the face value interpretation of the Luke 16 parable....

Jesus in all of his parables and discourses teaches nothing that is not "true to life."  His parables do not distort reality, nor paint pictures that are not realistic and possible.  If the picture Jesus paints of Hades is not correct, then we would have to charge Jesus with misrepresenting reality.   Notice that Lazarus and the rich man have both died, but their souls are still conscious in Hades, despite the death of their bodies (and the same is true of Abraham). All this takes place before the resurrection, while the rich man's brothers are still alive on earth.  If this was not the real state of the dead in Hades, then Jesus is knowingly guilty of totally misrepresenting the nature of the unseen Hadean spiritual realm to his disciples. It is obvious that Luke is not aware of this "alleged" misrepresentation, because he doesn't correct it and set the record straight.  There are no disclaimers here.  Nowhere in the New Testament do any of the inspired writers correct this impression that Jesus gives of the Hadean realm, but in fact they further augment it and reinforce it. [ie:Luke 20:38]


From Preterist Post:
When the Lord uttered the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, He reiterated and approved that which had already been revealed through non-canonical prophecies. Josephus related that teaching of the Jews in His Discourse To The Greeks Concerning Hades:

    "Hades" [is a] ..."region" ..."wherein the souls of the righteous and unrighteous are detained," ..."a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, appropriate to every one's behavior...." (Paragraph 1)

    "In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, in which ...no one has yet been cast; but it is prepared for a day foreordained by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust ...shall be judged to this everlasting punishment, ...while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading Kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined." (Paragraph 2)

    "...The just have dwelt [in] ...a region of light ...from the beginning of the world, ...with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but the countenance of the fathers and of the just, which they see always smiles upon them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in Heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call the Bosom of Abraham." (Paragraph 3)

    "But as to the unjust, ...they see the place [or choir] of the fathers and of the just. ...For a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man who has compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust ...pass over it." (Paragraph 4)

(See The Book of Enoch (Section 1, Chapter 22) which also taught a separation or partitioning of the dead before Judgment Day.)

Offline CatHead

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Hi Lehigh,
Jesus in all of his parables and discourses teaches nothing that is not "true to life."  His parables do not distort reality, nor paint pictures that are not realistic and possible.  If the picture Jesus paints of Hades is not correct, then we would have to charge Jesus with misrepresenting reality.   Notice that Lazarus and the rich man have both died, but their souls are still conscious in Hades, despite the death of their bodies (and the same is true of Abraham). All this takes place before the resurrection, while the rich man's brothers are still alive on earth.  If this was not the real state of the dead in Hades, then Jesus is knowingly guilty of totally misrepresenting the nature of the unseen Hadean spiritual realm to his disciples. It is obvious that Luke is not aware of this "alleged" misrepresentation, because he doesn't correct it and set the record straight.  There are no disclaimers here.  Nowhere in the New Testament do any of the inspired writers correct this impression that Jesus gives of the Hadean realm, but in fact they further augment it and reinforce it. [ie:Luke 20:38]


Jesus is condemning the Pharisees using their own doctrine.  If you study the parable as a plain teaching on the afterlife you will wind up in error on many levels. 

You will believe that it is Abraham's decision on who rises from the dead and who doesn't...Luke 16:27 or that it is Abraham's judgment that decides the eternal fate of the wicked....Luke 16:24  or that the soul returns to Abraham at the point of death (Luke 16:22) instead of the one that gave it (Ecc 12:7)  It all amounts to a form of ancestor worship which Judaism had evolved into...worshiping their forefathers instead of the God of their fathers.

There is much more error to be found in interpreting this parable literally, such as the key to eternal life and reward is simply being poor and afflicted in this lifetime, and the key to eternal damnation is living large during this lifetime(Luke 16:25)  When we all know that the only path to eternal life is through Jesus Christ

The text you give to support your viewpoint, Luke 20:38, doesn't mention Hades, or give any indication of the whereabouts or condition of those that have physically died....only that they are alive and not dead. 


From Preterist Post:
When the Lord uttered the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, He reiterated and approved that which had already been revealed through non-canonical prophecies. Josephus related that teaching of the Jews in His Discourse To The Greeks Concerning Hades:

    "Hades" [is a] ..."region" ..."wherein the souls of the righteous and unrighteous are detained," ..."a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, appropriate to every one's behavior...." (Paragraph 1)

    "In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, in which ...no one has yet been cast; but it is prepared for a day foreordained by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust ...shall be judged to this everlasting punishment, ...while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading Kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined." (Paragraph 2)

    "...The just have dwelt [in] ...a region of light ...from the beginning of the world, ...with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but the countenance of the fathers and of the just, which they see always smiles upon them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in Heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call the Bosom of Abraham." (Paragraph 3)

    "But as to the unjust, ...they see the place [or choir] of the fathers and of the just. ...For a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man who has compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust ...pass over it." (Paragraph 4)

(See The Book of Enoch (Section 1, Chapter 22) which also taught a separation or partitioning of the dead before Judgment Day.)

Josephus was a Pharisee, so of course he would personally believe in their doctrines on the afterlife.  Quoting his beliefs on the afterlife only reinforces what I stated in my previous post, that is, that the face value interpretation of the Rich Man and Lazarus parable mirrors the Pharisee doctrine on the afterlife.  And focuses on eternal rewards and punishments received in Hades, but opposes the correct doctrine of rewards and punishments received after resurrection....Revelation 22:12, Luke 14:12-14, Matthew 16:27, etc.

from the autobiography of Josephus - The Life of Flavius Josephus

I was commended by all for the love I had to learning; on which account the high priests and principal men of the city came then frequently to me together, in order to know my opinion about the accurate understanding of points of the law. And when I was about sixteen years old, I had a mind to make trim of the several sects that were among us. These sects are three: - The first is that of the Pharisees, the second that Sadducees, and the third that of the Essens, as we have frequently told you; for I thought that by this means I might choose the best, if I were once acquainted with them all; so I contented myself with hard fare, and underwent great difficulties, and went through them all. Nor did I content myself with these trials only; but when I was informed that one, whose name was Banus, lived in the desert, and used no other clothing than grew upon trees, and had no other food than what grew of its own accord, and bathed himself in cold water frequently, both by night and by day, in order to preserve his chastity, I imitated him in those things, and continued with him three years. (3) So when I had accomplished my desires, I returned back to the city, being now nineteen years old, and began to conduct myself according to the rules of the sect of the Pharisees, which is of kin to the sect of the Stoics, as the Greeks call them.

Have a great day,

Cat

Offline fenton

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i looked this josephus guy up, and i wouldnt believe a thing he said, he was only for himself!!!
::frustrated:: Headaches

I am not living in hell and if this is heaven then God lied and God is not a liar!!!

Pro 1:23  Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

1Jn 2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Lehigh

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cathead said:
Quote
Jesus is condemning the Pharisees using their own doctrine.  If you study the parable as a plain teaching on the afterlife you will wind up in error on many levels.
I disagree. Jesus is condemning the Pharisees "love of money" and their justifying themselves before men, not God. Jesus qualifies this in the preceding passage.
Quote
You will believe that it is Abraham's decision on who rises from the dead and who doesn't...Luke 16:27 or that it is Abraham's judgment that decides the eternal fate of the wicked....Luke 16:24

I disagree. Where did you get that "you" from? Jesus does not deny that "Abraham's bosom" representing the good part of Hades after death either. The discourse or if even a parable, does not suggest that Abraham is the divine judge. Abraham represented of Israel, and the Rich man only suggests that Abraham should speak to living brothers from the DEAD to repent and change- but representing the spiritual realm, Abraham says they should read and heed the law and the prophets words.  And no where does it say that Abraham judges the eternal fate of any!
Quote
or that the soul returns to Abraham at the point of death (Luke 16:22) instead of the one that gave it (Ecc 12:7)  It all amounts to a form of ancestor worship which Judaism had evolved into...worshiping their forefathers instead of the God of their fathers.
Again, I don't see it that way at all. All souls or spirits returned to God who gave them. Prior to the resurrection of the dead from Hades and the sea in 70AD, souls were sequestered in Hades. There Were 2 partitions in Hades (ie:Luke 16) Jesus Himself repeats this. Remember, it was the Sadducees who did not belief in a resurrection of the dead, not the Pharisees.
Quote
There is much more error to be found in interpreting this parable literally, such as the key to eternal life and reward is simply being poor and afflicted in this lifetime, and the key to eternal damnation is living large during this lifetime(Luke 16:25)  When we all know that the only path to eternal life is through Jesus Christ
The dead depicted in the parable were judged by "good or wicked" They didn't have Jesus yet. Poor Lazarus, but nowhere do we get the impression that he was wicked or unmerciful as the Rich man, who had the Law and the prophets in his life, but only justified himself before men.
Quote
The text you give to support your viewpoint, Luke 20:38, doesn't mention Hades, or give any indication of the whereabouts or condition of those that have physically died....only that they are alive and not dead. 
Before 70AD, they were sequestered in Hades. The promise to the patriarchs of Israel was the resurrection.
No one would be made "perfect" without the revealing of the sons of God in the N.T.  And then they were perfected!
37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a] 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.

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Offline CatHead

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Hi Lehigh,
I disagree. Jesus is condemning the Pharisees "love of money" and their justifying themselves before men, not God. Jesus qualifies this in the preceding passage.
I'm not sure how this disagrees with what I said earlier???

I disagree. Where did you get that "you" from? Jesus does not deny that "Abraham's bosom" representing the good part of Hades after death either. The discourse or if even a parable, does not suggest that Abraham is the divine judge. Abraham represented of Israel, and the Rich man only suggests that Abraham should speak to living brothers from the DEAD to repent and change- but representing the spiritual realm, Abraham says they should read and heed the law and the prophets words.  And no where does it say that Abraham judges the eternal fate of any!
The 'Rich Man' petitions Abraham for relief for his torment in the parable and it is Abraham's decision as to whether he receives it or not...in this case not....the literal interpretation of the parable elevates a man (Abraham) to the seat and authority of Jesus Christ to whom all judgment is given (John 5:22).

Luk 16:24  And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25  But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


If you begin to apply symbology to the story (ie: Abraham represents Israel) you change the interpretive method for the entire parable.  If in the story 'Abraham represents Israel' then it would be logical that also Lazarus could representative of something else, the rich man, the brothers, etc.  While I disagree that 'Abraham represents Israel', I agree that this is the methodology that must be applied to the parable in order to bring it into harmony with the whole of scripture.


Again, I don't see it that way at all. All souls or spirits returned to God who gave them. Prior to the resurrection of the dead from Hades and the sea in 70AD, souls were sequestered in Hades. There Were 2 partitions in Hades (ie:Luke 16) Jesus Himself repeats this. Remember, it was the Sadducees who did not belief in a resurrection of the dead, not the Pharisees.
It is poor exegetical method to be solely reliant on one text to formulate a doctrine.  I see from scanning the rest of your post that referring back to Luke 16 alot (only).  Please show from scripture other than Luke 16 that hades is compartmentalized into 'good' and 'bad' sections with a chasm between the two.

The dead depicted in the parable were judged by "good or wicked" They didn't have Jesus yet. Poor Lazarus, but nowhere do we get the impression that he was wicked or unmerciful as the Rich man, who had the Law and the prophets in his life, but only justified himself before men.
I'm not sure what difference it would make, or how the eternal fate of those that died before the birth of Christ would be affected by anything Christ did in his ministry.  He preached to the living not the dead.  So if a judgment was given by Abraham to the dead that died before Christ as to whether they were 'good or wicked', then that judgment should be permanent.
 

Before 70AD, they were sequestered in Hades. The promise to the patriarchs of Israel was the resurrection.
No one would be made "perfect" without the revealing of the sons of God in the N.T.  And then they were perfected!
37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a] 38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.

Offline Seriousseeker

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Thanks JohnDB for defending the faith.  It is so tiring to try to teach the whole Bible to those who like to twist some verses of the Scripture to prove a point or doctrine they like to hold.  The sad thing is when they refuse godly counsel about essential truth.  That is offensive to God.  The Lord will reveal all truth soon, I believe, when He comes for His bride.  Look up always!

I believe a faithful "child of God" should trust our Savior --the Lord Jesus (which pleases the Father), worship Him and make Him our best Friend;  value "unity of the faith", be non-sectarian and hold fully to Scripture ---declaring "all the counsel of God" and be "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" as the Apostle Paul counseled the saints.  Let us look up always (note John 14).

Offline fenton

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Thanks JohnDB for defending the faith.  It is so tiring to try to teach the whole Bible to those who like to twist some verses of the Scripture to prove a point or doctrine they like to hold.  The sad thing is when they refuse godly counsel about essential truth.  That is offensive to God.  The Lord will reveal all truth soon, I believe, when He comes for His bride.  Look up always!


::nodding::
::frustrated:: Headaches

I am not living in hell and if this is heaven then God lied and God is not a liar!!!

Pro 1:23  Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

1Jn 2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Lehigh

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 Cathead, glad to see you agree with the truth Jesus preached in the Bible!

Offline Shawn_CR

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Col_1:13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


Heb 12:22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Note that we have come to the new heavenly Jerusalem and to the "SPIRITS" of just men made perfect? Who are these Just men?  These just mean are the same people that Paul just spoke about in Hebrews chapter 11.

Heb 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

These Just men Paul is speaking of in chapter 11 who having obtained a good report through faith, did not receive the promise, seeing that God had something better planned, that they without us should not be made perfect. That is to say neither we without them could be made perfect. So if we have come to the Spirits of Just men made perfect what does that mean for us?
We have come to the Heavenly Jerusalem, an innumerable company of angels, to the general Assembly of God, and to the spirits of those Just Men now made perfect in Christ.

Eph 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

So we were dead and now we have been quickened(to make alive,resurrect) together with Christ being saved by grace, And Christ has already raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places. So we have been quickened and translated(To transfer from one place or condition to another) into the kingdom of God.


I know where I am right now, Where are you?

Act 28:26 " Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: "
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 08:12:08 AM by Shawn_CR »

Offline Shawn_CR

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Thanks JohnDB for defending the faith.  It is so tiring to try to teach the whole Bible to those who like to twist some verses of the Scripture to prove a point or doctrine they like to hold.  The sad thing is when they refuse godly counsel about essential truth.  That is offensive to God.  The Lord will reveal all truth soon, I believe, when He comes for His bride.  Look up always!



Rev 21:9  And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev 21:10  And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

So the seven angels that came to John and talked with him and said come here I will show you the bride, the Lamb's Wife and he carried him away in the spirit and showed him the Holy Jerusalem descending out of heaven from God!

1Co 12:26  And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27  Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Are we not the body of Christ? Is Christ himself not the head? Is the head separate from the body? Is Christ cut off from his church? Does the head have to return for his body?