Author Topic: Is there going to be a thrid coming according to the Partial preterist view  (Read 1103 times)

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Offline Larrys

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Greeting

Do the partial preterist believe in a third coming, if so how to they present it with scriptures outside of the end part of Matthew 24? Verses 36 onward. As I understand it, when the verse indicates “no one knows the day or hour” it is referring to the temples destruction only. Is the bottom line only a play on words, like “this and that “which can easily be challenged by cross referencing the Luke account.

Larry

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Offline 3 Resurrections

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Larrys  -  Yes, there will be a third bodily coming of Christ in our future, but this is not a typical partial preterist view to my knowledge.  It's not the full preterist view, either.  But it's the truth.  And it is a truth based on more than a single reference.  The entirety of scripture is in sync with this.

We could throw one verse against another on this topic all day long and have endless, tedious discussions of the proper translation of words from the original languages.  None of this is as effective as comparing the picture-types God laid out in the OT Mosaic laws and rituals.  All of them symbolized how God would complete His plan of redemption for the spirit, soul, and body of each of His sons and daughters.  A picture is worth a thousand words, and that is what we have when we look at Mosaic law. 

Why was God so emphatic about the ancient Israelites preserving every minute detail of the law He gave them to live under at that time?  One primary reason was that He wanted to save an unaltered, living pattern for us in the New Covenant generation to examine.  We can now see how Christ had planned from the beginning to be the anti-type fulfillment of every OT symbol ever given.  On this side of the Cross, it is more clearly seen than in Old Covenant days.   Within these OT symbols, a picture of God's design for the resurrection of His children is provided for us.

There is a third coming of Christ, (with a third resurrection for us in our future), to fulfill the purpose for the pattern of three harvest feast celebrations laid out in texts such as Deuteronomy 16:16.  All the male members at least from each family were required to attend Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles.  The Israelites, rejoicing in the three separate feasts for crops harvested out of the earth every year, provided a symbol of God, "the Husbandman", having "long patience" until He would eventually harvest in three stages all the bodies of redeemed men from out of the dust of the ground (as James 5:7-8 portrays Him).

Two of these bodily resurrection events have already taken place.  Those raised along with Christ at the Passover feast, (the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints), were the First Resurrection.  Most do not dispute this event happening.  And it was undeniably a physical resurrection of flesh and bone bodies out of the dust, changed into incorruptible forms that would never die again.  The day of Pentecost in AD 70 saw the second bodily resurrection take place.  This day was 45 days after Titus had arrived at Jerusalem, when the city was filled with Passover celebrants who became trapped inside by the siege.  Daniel 12:11-12 gives us very specific details on this number, with the promise of a resurrection blessing at the end of the 45th day that Daniel was promised to share in.

Since the time for these harvest feasts was based on the cycle of the new moon's appearance, no man knew exactly the day or the hour that the new moon would appear, so they were to watch.  All of the urgency we find in the NT gospels and the epistles about the Day of the Lord's coming was related to that second coming of a bodily-returning Christ on the Mount of Olives in Pentecost of AD 70.  This is when Christ raptured the resurrected, changed bodies of His saints - including the First-Resurrection, Matthew 27:52-53 saints who were still alive, and had remained on the earth until then (as I Thess 4:15 describes them).   

We are now waiting for the third coming of Christ, with a third, bodily resurrection at the close of human history that will complete the 3-harvest-feasts pattern.  The only harvest feast left is the one that took place in the Fall - the Feast of Tabernacles - the largest, most joyous festival of the year for ancient Israel, with the greatest variety of crops harvested.  Just as Christians can appear in every possible variety, out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation.

There are other references that align with this "3 feasts = 3 resurrections" view that could be supplied, if requested.  And I am still waiting for someone to counter this with an actual reference that proves there is one, and only one resurrection for everybody at the same time.  A single, simultaneous resurrection for all is something that has simply been assumed without question, and has no biblical basis.

Offline robycop3

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  There hasn't yet been even a second coming of Jesus, & when it occurs, there won't be a 3rd, as He will be here forever.

Offline lea

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Partial preterists are afraid to become full preterists. And to my knowledge, they don't even believe the second coming was fulfilled.

I say that because I have witnessed some churches AND websites totally rejecting full preterism.

And I know why too!  It's because they will lose money and parishioners if they change abruptly.

It's as simple as that.

But it is for sure the Bible NEVER suggests a "third' coming. And Jesus appeared a second time from heaven in the clouds. NEVER to be portrayed as "physically" coming.

Jesus told the disciples to "watch" for the signs of the end of the age, and it is true that they weren't given the exact day or hour.
However, Luke 21, 20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

"For by grace you have been saved."  That's what happens now and future for us.
« Last Edit: Sun Dec 22, 2019 - 15:44:55 by lea »

Offline robycop3

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Partial preterists are afraid to become full preterists. And to my knowledge, they don't even believe the second coming was fulfilled.

  That's cuz it HASN'T BEEN, yet. And Matt. 24:29-30 prove partial preterism false.

Quote
I say that because I have witnessed some churches AND websites totally rejecting full preterism.

 That's cuz it's FALSE.

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And I know why too!  It's because they will lose money and parishioners if they change abruptly.

It's as simple as that.

  No, it's cuz it's simply FALSE, as history & reality prove.

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But it is for sure the Bible NEVER suggests a "third' coming. And Jesus appeared a second time from heaven in the clouds. NEVER to be portrayed as "physically" coming.

No, He DIDN'T. And JESUS HIMSELF as well as Zechariah portrayed a physical return.

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Jesus told the disciples to "watch" for the signs of the end of the age, and it is true that they weren't given the exact day or hour.
However, Luke 21, 20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

  Yes, that was the fulfillment of the "days of vengeance", not the eschatological events.

Quote
"For by grace you have been saved."  That's what happens now and future for us.

 That's the ONLY true thing you've said in this post.

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Offline lea

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  That's cuz it HASN'T BEEN, yet. And Matt. 24:29-30 prove partial preterism false.

 That's cuz it's FALSE.

  No, it's cuz it's simply FALSE, as history & reality prove.

No, He DIDN'T. And JESUS HIMSELF as well as Zechariah portrayed a physical return.

  Yes, that was the fulfillment of the "days of vengeance", not the eschatological events.

 That's the ONLY true thing you've said in this post.
Do you even listen to yourself? You never prove any interpretation of the Bible by comparing scripture with scripture. That is key. And you lack sound exegesis.

Zechariah spoke in spiritual terms. Just like David said of the Lord in Psalm 18,
7
Then the earth shook and quaked;
And the foundations of the mountains were trembling
And were shaken, because He was angry.
8
Smoke went up [f]out of His nostrils,
And fire from His mouth devoured;
Coals were kindled by it.
9
He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With thick darkness under His feet.
10
He rode upon a cherub and flew;
And He sped upon the wings of the wind.

You end with the flesh and not the spirit.  "The Spirit of prophecy" Yet you change it to "flesh."

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  Yes, that was the fulfillment of the "days of vengeance", not the eschatological events.
What?! We ARE discussing the "end times" And "days of vengeance" is and was about the Roman/Jewish war and God punishing that sinful generation of Jews for crucifying their Messiah, and for have the Lord's prophets and for violating their Covenant. The Jews who rejected Christ are "Babylon" in Revelation.
When I have more time and don't have to put on my Christmas lights and fix dinner and wrap presents, I will address "Babylon" in Revelation for you to enjoy!

Offline robycop3

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  The "days of vengeance" were a specific punishment of that generation of Jews for their murders of righteous people by that generation. Jesus held them responsible for ALL murders of the righteous up til that time, from Abel onward. (Even though Abel lived before the Jews existed.)

  There was a much-greater punishment of the Jews that began a couple of generations later, in 135-136 AD when Hadrian expelled them from their land. This punishment lasted over 1800 years, culminating in the nazi holocaust. This punishment was for the murder of Jesus.

  However, the great trib, etc. will be WORLDWIDE.

  And the new Babylon is ROME, ITALY.

Offline lea

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  The "days of vengeance" were a specific punishment of that generation of Jews for their murders of righteous people by that generation. Jesus held them responsible for ALL murders of the righteous up til that time, from Abel onward. (Even though Abel lived before the Jews existed.)

  There was a much-greater punishment of the Jews that began a couple of generations later, in 135-136 AD when Hadrian expelled them from their land. This punishment lasted over 1800 years, culminating in the nazi holocaust. This punishment was for the murder of Jesus.

  However, the great trib, etc. will be WORLDWIDE.

  And the new Babylon is ROME, ITALY.
The temple was the focus of Jesus' words in Matt.24.
It was destroyed under "little horn" - Titus in AD70.
BTW,
You
can suffer in a future Armageddon if you want, But I will be wishing and a hoping for "peace on earth" always.

Offline robycop3

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The temple was the focus of Jesus' words in Matt.24.
It was destroyed under "little horn" - Titus in AD70.

  No, Titus was NOT the little horn. He did not remove 3 other horns. He certainly wasn't the beast/antichrist/man of sin.


Quote
BTW,
You
can suffer in a future Armageddon if you want, But I will be wishing and a hoping for "peace on earth" always.

  Won't be here; I'll either be dead ot raptured.

Offline grandcentralstation

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The "coming" of Christ seems to be one of the most confusing subjects that is discussed and debated. The time references add to this confusion which the futurists either ignore completely or have some elaborate explanation for the "soon" or "near" statements. One example is James 5:8(KJV):

 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. 

I just can't comprehend how you futurists can explain this "near" time reference as a window of time that so far has been 1900 + years. The usual explanation by futurists of verses like this is "imminence" that is thus explained as "could happen at any time but hasn't happened yet". The most honest explanation of this verse that I've heard from a futurist was from a pastor at my former church who said that James and many Christians of the first century were mistaken.. that they wrongly assumed the coming of the Lord was near to them. I disagree with my former pastor and believe there is a very logical explanation for these time statements and futurists have completely missed what was occurring during the few years preceding the 66-70 AD time period.  Most futurists see the "coming"(parousia) and the "will come" mentioned in Acts 1:11 as the same event. I believe they are 2 separate events and curiously these verses contain separate Greek words for Christ's "coming". The Greek word for the coming in Acts 1:11 is "eleusetai". The Greek word for Christ's "coming" in James 5:8 is "parousia" which is described by James as near to him when he wrote the letter. I see the "will come"(eleusetai) in Acts 1:11 as Christ's return to earth at the end of human history but the "coming"(parousia) of Christ that was near to James was Christ's judgement on the land of Judea from 66-70AD. An example of God's judgement in the old Testament that is described as a "coming" is Isaiah 19. The first verse states:

The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

Did the ancient Egyptians physically see God riding on a cloud when he came in judgement against them?
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 26, 2019 - 09:00:56 by grandcentralstation »

Offline robycop3

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  The explanation is very simple - THOSE EVENTS HAVEN'T YET OCCURRED ! No matter how one tries to get around that fact, they just can't do it ! Those prophecies will be LITERALLY FULFILLED, same as all fulfilled prophecies have been, so far.

  God said He'd restore Judah & Israel, & he's partially restored Judah, making Jerusalem its capital again. The land of Judah became a terror to the Egyptians, just as prophesied, as well as Egypt becoming poor, its people lacking paying work, all as prophesied in Isaiah 19.

  These prophecies were, of course, fulfilled recently. And God hasn't  come thru Egypt yet.

   Yes, all the prophecies will be fulfilled-literally. They simply haven't YET been.

Offline lea

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THE COMING OF GOD IN THE OT

The nature of the coming/manifestation of Jehovah in the OT is important as a backdrop for understanding the parousia of Jesus. This fact is sorely misunderstood or ignored by most Bible students today.

In the Old Testament Jehovah came many times. He came on the clouds, with fire, with angels, in judgment, and "heaven and earth" passed away. He came when he delivered Israel from Egypt (Exodus 3:8). He came in the fall of Babylon (Isaiah 13-14). He came in the fall of Edom (Isaiah 34). He came in the destruction of Egypt at the hands of the Assyrians (Isaiah 19-20). He came with fire and the shout when He defeated the Assyrians as they besieged Jerusalem (Isaiah 30, 37).

Each of these events was the coming of the Lord. They were "theophanies," manifestations of the majesty and glory of God in judgment. They manifested God's sovereignty and justice (Isaiah 26:9). The fulfillment of His predictions to "come" showed Him to be the true God (Isaiah 41:21f). ~DKPreston on the parousia.
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 26, 2019 - 16:10:53 by lea »

Offline lea

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grandcentralstation,
I agree with your post EXCEPT for one comment:
 
Quote
The Greek word for Christ's "coming" in James 5:8 is "parousia" which is described by James as near to him when he wrote the letter. I see the "will come"(eleusetai) in Acts 1:11 as Christ's return to earth at the end of human history

While the Greek words may be different with "coming and "will come," I do not believe the coming "in a like manner He left in Acts 1:11 was to be another event.
The focus, I believe is on the "like manner" which He left the disciples.

To simplify it, please read this interpretation that explains the "like manner" in Acts 1:11.
http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/mark/13_26-27.htm
 

Offline robycop3

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  "Like manner" doesn't mean "EXACTLY the same", but BASICALLY the same. While jesus will return by simply visibly descending, He will be in His full glory and mounted on a white horse.

Offline lea

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Ha ha. Jesus returned in the clouds during the first Jewish/Roman war.  That is the "like manner" - cloud coming, same He left (a cloud took him up)as Acts 1:11.

Looking for Jesus to return and be a king on an earthly throne was never His intention. It was a sin against the Father ( from OT times). See here in John 6:15, Then Jesus, realizing that they were about to come and make Him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by Himself.



Offline robycop3

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Ha ha. Jesus returned in the clouds during the first Jewish/Roman war.  That is the "like manner" - cloud coming, same He left (a cloud took him up)as Acts 1:11.

  No; He vanished into a cloud, same as an aircraft does.

Quote
Looking for Jesus to return and be a king on an earthly throne was never His intention. It was a sin against the Father ( from OT times). See here in John 6:15, Then Jesus, realizing that they were about to come and make Him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by Himself.

  So, all His statements about His future return, & the Revelation, aren't true, in your opinion ?

Offline lea

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  No; He vanished into a cloud, same as an aircraft does.

  So, all His statements about His future return, & the Revelation, aren't true, in your opinion ?
Actually it's Acts1:9 that says "cloud receive Him."   Returned on the glory cloud. The apostles knew what the "glory cloud" was.

As for your second statement, His "future" return was future for the first century AD audience.


Offline robycop3

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Actually it's Acts1:9 that says "cloud receive Him."   Returned on the glory cloud. The apostles knew what the "glory cloud" was.

As for your second statement, His "future" return was future for the first century AD audience.

  Well, does a cloud not "receive" an aircraft that enters it?

  And no, Jesus has not yet returned. And He made it plain He won't return secretly. He said to not believe any reports of seeing Him, as His return will be seen by ALL. There's no Scriptural indication of any other return, except that He's SPIRITUALLY present wherever/whenever two or more are gathered in His name.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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The Matthew 24:26 verse plainly tells us that Christ planned to return while Herod’s temple was still in existence.  “Wherefore if they shall say unto you Behold he is in the desert, go not forth; Behold, he is in the SECRET CHAMBERS (tameiois) , believe it not.”

These “secret chambers” that Christ mentioned were the two repositories in the temple where gifts for the poor could be donated and dispensed anonymously, and gifts of vessels could be given in secret for the repair of the temple (Shekalim, chapter 5 Mishnah 6).  Josephus’ Antiquities also makes reference to Antiochus raiding the  Temple of these “secret treasures” in his days before the Maccabean revolt started.

These “secret chambers” were also raided by the Zealot factions occupying the Temple during the AD 66-70 period.  Those who managed to occupy the Temple grounds used the contents of these  “secret chambers” to benefit their own leader’s cause. 

Christ would necessarily have timed His return to take place while there was still a set of “secret chambers” around in an existing Temple before it was destroyed at the end of AD 70.

It is also interesting that in this Matt 24:26 verse that Christ warned against following false messiahs who would gather people to the WILDERNESS location.  Already in Acts 21:38, an Egyptian had led 4,000 assassins out into the WILDERNESS in rebellion against Rome - a clear indication that Christ’s prediction was already coming true in the apostle Paul’s days.


Offline robycop3

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The Matthew 24:26 verse plainly tells us that Christ planned to return while Herod’s temple was still in existence.  “Wherefore if they shall say unto you Behold he is in the desert, go not forth; Behold, he is in the SECRET CHAMBERS (tameiois) , believe it not.”

These “secret chambers” that Christ mentioned were the two repositories in the temple where gifts for the poor could be donated and dispensed anonymously, and gifts of vessels could be given in secret for the repair of the temple (Shekalim, chapter 5 Mishnah 6).  Josephus’ Antiquities also makes reference to Antiochus raiding the  Temple of these “secret treasures” in his days before the Maccabean revolt started.

These “secret chambers” were also raided by the Zealot factions occupying the Temple during the AD 66-70 period.  Those who managed to occupy the Temple grounds used the contents of these  “secret chambers” to benefit their own leader’s cause. 

Christ would necessarily have timed His return to take place while there was still a set of “secret chambers” around in an existing Temple before it was destroyed at the end of AD 70.

It is also interesting that in this Matt 24:26 verse that Christ warned against following false messiahs who would gather people to the WILDERNESS location.  Already in Acts 21:38, an Egyptian had led 4,000 assassins out into the WILDERNESS in rebellion against Rome - a clear indication that Christ’s prediction was already coming true in the apostle Paul’s days.

Uh...Sir...uh...With all due respect...

  Please read the Scripture again, a little more closely. Jesus said if anyone says He WAS in the secret chamber, DON'T BELIEVE IT !  That means He WOULDN'T be there !

  Yes, the temple was standing when Jesus said that. And His angels said He'd return IN LIKE MANNER. (Not EXACT manner.) Now, how did He leave? Physically & visibly, He simply rose til He vanished in a cloud. He will simply DESCEND, visibly & physically, when He returns. He will "touch down" on the Mt. of Olives, as He showed Zechariah.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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You are totally missing my point...again.

As you have admitted, Herod’s Temple was still in existence when Christ made that statement.  Christ would not have warned against people claiming that they had found the coming Messiah in the secret chambers if those secret chambers were not going to be in existence still at the time.

There would be no possibility of the Jews claiming they had found the coming Messiah in either the wilderness or the secret chambers at a time AFTER AD 70’s destruction of the Temple with those same secret chambers being destroyed along with it.  Christ’s warning HAD to be describing a time BEFORE those secret chambers and the Temple had all been burned up in AD 70. 

This context is all wrapped around the timing of Christ’s coming return.  As you have said, Christ’s return would not be to the location of those secret chambers, but on the prophesied Mount of Olives instead, as Zechariah predicted.  Meaning that the “secret chambers” of the Temple still existed at the time of Christ’s coming, which was just prior to the time those secret chambers were destroyed along with the Temple at the end of AD 70.

No argument with you on the “like manner” of Christ’s return.  (It’s not the “exact manner”, as you have said, but similar in kind.). And also as you have said, that return was to involve a “touchdown” on the Mount of Olives.

However, contrary to your opinion, Christ was NOT GOING TO STAY ON EARTH at that one particular occasion of His return.  As He promised the disciples, “And if I go, I will come again and RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF, that WHERE I AM, THERE YE MAY BE ALSO.”  In other words, Christ would gather all the resurrected saints to Himself at His return and do a U-turn, bringing them with Him back to heaven to present them to the Father. (As in “Behold, I and the children whom thou hast given me”, when Christ would  “deliver up the kingdom” by “presenting you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy...”)

This is the AD 70 fulfillment of the so-called “rapture” text, when Paul said that “them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING WITH HIM” back to heaven after they had “met the Lord together in the air.”  In other words, Christ did NOT intend to remain on earth with those resurrected saints after He had received them unto Himself.

On the next occasion of His final return, however, there is a strong possibility that Christ WILL REMAIN on this planet to purge it completely of any further existence of human evil, and render it inhabited by only righteous resurrected individuals.  The planet itself is NOT scheduled for annihilation.  It’s just as Isaiah 45:28 testified, “For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, HE FORMED IT TO BE INHABITED...”.

That purpose of God planning for the planet to be inhabited by mankind does not end at the final resurrection.  There will be all of eternity for the saints to explore not only the universe, but also the planet that God has given to the sons of men.



« Last Edit: Mon Dec 30, 2019 - 00:25:20 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline robycop3

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  Jesus has NOT yet returned, simple as THAT. He did NOT mention two returns, but only one. When He returns, He will stay.

  And the fact that there are still plenty of saints alive on earth right now, as well as in past times shows He has NOT yet gathered them physically to Himself.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Hi robycop3,

Did you not even bother to read what I just wrote?  I said I AGREE that when Christ returns in our future that He more than likely WILL PHYSICALLY REMAIN on this planet, just as you said.

But the description Christ gave of His own coming when He spoke with the disciples about it made it very clear that He WOULD NOT REMAIN on the planet with them on that occasion, but would “receive you unto myself, that where I am there ye may be also”.  We are also told in the I Thess. 4 “rapture” text that the resurrected saints would meet Him together “IN THE AIR”.  Christ would then “bring them with Him” back to heaven to the Father and “present them faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy”, as the book of Jude tells us. 

Because this scenario of Christ LEAVING the planet with the bodily-resurrected saints to go to heaven with them is totally different from Him coming TO REMAIN on the planet, that helps to prove that there are TWO returns of Christ - one back in AD 70 to close out the OLD Covenant Age, and one in our future to close out the NEW Covenant Age.  Two for the price of one, so to speak.

You are operating on the common misunderstanding that the “rapture” would TRANSLATE the living saints without dying and take them to heaven along with the long-dead saints who would be resurrected on that occasion.  NO SUCH MASS TRANSLATION OF THE SAINTS IS EVER PROMISED TO US.  EVER.  Not in I Thess. 4, and not in I Cor. 15. either.

EVERYONE IS APPOINTED TO DIE JUST ONCE.  There is NO ESCAPING THIS.  When Paul wrote in I Thess. 4 about the “living and remaining” saints being caught up in the air along with the resurrected dead saints, he was talking about those saints who had ALREADY BEEN MADE ALIVE BY BEING RAISED FROM THE DEAD.  Those such as  the beloved Lazarus, and the “144,000 First-fruits” saints raised along with Christ at His resurrection in Matthew 27:52-53. 

These saints had never died again, (not a possibility for one raised to incorruptibility by the power of the Spirit), but had “REMAINED” on the earth, serving as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers in the early church until Christ’s AD 70 bodily return caught them up together in the air with the rest of the newly-resurrected saints. 


Offline robycop3

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  No, that event hasn't yet occurred. There were saints here in 69 AD and in 71 AD.

  And there's no Scripture saying anyone raised from the dead at that time would be "incorruptible". Those such as Jairus' daughter & Dorcas died again. You might TRY to cover that by saying they were later taken to heaven, but there's no historical record of such an event. Dorcas woulda been greatly missed again, as would all the other saints. NO mass vanishings in history !

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Robycop3, you are flat-out INVENTING doctrine that clearly contradicts scripture. 

The saints such as Dorcas, Lazarus, and the 144,000 First-fruits raised from the dead along with Christ in Matt. 27:52-53 NEVER died a second time.  IT’S NOT POSSIBLE, according to Hebrews 9:27.  “And as it is appointed unto men *ONCE* TO DIE, but after this the judgment...”.

You are ignoring the method God uses to bring a dead saint’s physical body back to a living condition again.  It is the PRESENCE AND WORK OF THE SPIRIT that accomplishes this, as we are told in Romans 8:11.  “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies BY HIS SPIRIT that dwelleth in you.” 

This tells us that when the Spirit of God re-animates the elements that made the original mortal body form, by this means He raises it to incorruptible life again, NEVER TO DIE AGAIN A SECOND TIME, as promised in Heb. 9:27.  You might as well say that you can kill the Holy Spirit as to say that a saint raised from the dead by the power of the Spirit can die again.  NOT.   EVEN.  REMOTELY.  POSSIBLE.

The I Thess. 4 “rapture” text is the proof that God took all the resurrected saints like Lazarus, Dorcas, and the  Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints to heaven at the close of that Old Covenant Age.   That’s what the word “REMAIN” indicates (in that phrase “we which are alive and REMAIN...”).  In Greek, this “perileipo” term is very similar to the “apoleipo” term, with both of them showing a kind of RESERVED STATUS, intended for a specific purpose.   

This isn’t just talking about ordinary living people who had never died being “raptured”.  It’s RESURRECTED people that Paul knew who had been MADE ALIVE, but who had REMAINED on earth in a sort of reserved status, just as Christ told Peter that He desired the “beloved disciple” to “REMAIN” until He came again. 

The point remains.  Only RESURRECTED  SAINTS were to be raptured in I Thess. 4.  Not TRANSLATED saints, because no such promise of a translation for the living has ever been given to us.   ALL must die the ONE TIME.   And with the rampant death and chaotic conditions at the close of the AD 70 era, (when those 144,000-plus resurrected saints who had remained on earth were raptured to heaven along with those who had newly come up out of their graves), this is not necessarily a number that would have been missed.   Or if noticed, those witnesses noting the absence of those 144,000-plus saints who had been living among them may have died or been taken captive soon after in the subsequent carnage at the very end of the siege.  Or have been turned into refugees on the run, with no way to keep track of the 144,000-plus resurrected saints who had once lived and remained among them before Jerusalem fell.

Plus, as you remember, any resurrected saint, just like the risen Christ, has the option of invisibility if desired.  We cannot say for certain that those resurrected saints MUST have been seen as they ascended to heaven back in AD 70.

Offline robycop3

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  No, YOU'RE the one making up doctrine here.

  First, Jesus never said anything about TWO returns. He did NOT return in 70 AD. He said His return would be SEEN BY ALL, so it hasn't happened yet.  And we see  that when He resurrected Lazarus, that others had to remove the burial shrouds from him, so he wasn't yet in a new body.

  And the 144 K, all Israelis, won't be manifest til the reign of the beast. You should study the Scriptures about them a little closer.

  But, again, prets have no other choice but to invent doctrine as they go, as there's no historical evidence to support their hooey.

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Jesus certainly DID say something about His TWO returns.  I have written these references before, but you have either missed them or ignored them entirely.  Probably the latter.

#1)  Luke 12:38  (YLT) -  This context is the discussion of the warning Christ gave His disciples to be ready at all times for His return.  Just like men waiting for their lord’s return from the wedding FEASTS (PLURAL), the disciples were to have their loins girded and their lights burning.  “And if he come in the SECOND watch, *AND* in the THIRD watch he come and find them thus, blessed are those bondmen.”   This is TWO COMINGS that Christ mentioned, that would result in blessing if the bondmen were faithfully watching for His return on BOTH of those occasions.

#2)  Hosea 6:3  -  This is a companion verse to its virtual duplicate in the NT book of James.  “Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; AND HE SHALL *COME TO US* AS THE RAIN, as the LATTER and FORMER RAIN unto the earth.” 

The time for these TWO rainy seasons in Israel were quite distinct and predictable, with the “latter rain” coming in the season of Passover and The Pentecost Feast of Weeks, and the “former rain” coming around October/November and the Feast of Tabernacles.  Christ was going to time His coming returns at times of the year that would match these two rainy season periods in Israel.

#3)  James 5:7-9  -  This is where James copies the language of God’s TWO comings in Hosea 6:3, and gives more details.  He had just been warning the rich men (who had been oppressing the poor) not to heap treasure together IN THE LAST DAYS.  To comfort those believers oppressed by these rich men, James then said, “Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the COMING OF THE LORD.  Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until it receive the EARLY and LATTER RAIN.  Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the COMING OF THE LORD HAS DRAWN NEAR.  Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: Behold, the judge STANDETH BEFORE THE DOOR.”

Here we have the TWO rainy seasons, again compared to the TWO comings of the Lord.

God himself was the husbandman (John 15:1), waiting for the results of the TWO harvests to come, timed to occur during the seasons of the “early” and the “latter rain”.  The “harvests” would be the “precious fruit” of the resurrected saints’ incorruptible physical bodies coming out of the grave on those TWO occasions. 

“PRECIOUS in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints.”  The dead bodies of the saints are indeed precious to the God who made them, and He has been willing to wait with very long patience over the millennia until those TWO harvests finally gather all of them to be in His presence.

In James’ days, that first coming harvest and its judgment was so imminent that James said the judge was already standing at the door.  Christ’s coming had definitely “drawn NEAR” for that harvest soon to come for the first-century generation.  Since then, God the “husbandman” has again been patiently waiting for the next harvest of the saints’ bodies at the close of the New Covenant Age in our future.

And I have definitely done much study and many posts over 7 years of who the Israelite 144,000 saints were.  The 144,000 were called the “First-fruits” in Rev. 14:4.  Just as Christ was also called the “Firstfruits” from among the dead in I Cor. 15:20,23.  They shared the same title because they shared the same resurrection event.  Meaning these 144,000 are the Jewish Matthew 27:52-53 saints raised along with Christ from their graves in the area around Jerusalem   The 144,000 Firstfruits were not only predicted in the rituals of the Mosaic law, but their footprints are also all over the NT books, if one is on the alert to look for them. 

Offline robycop3

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Jesus certainly DID say something about His TWO returns.  I have written these references before, but you have either missed them or ignored them entirely.  Probably the latter.

#1)  Luke 12:38  (YLT) -  This context is the discussion of the warning Christ gave His disciples to be ready at all times for His return.  Just like men waiting for their lord’s return from the wedding FEASTS (PLURAL), the disciples were to have their loins girded and their lights burning.  “And if he come in the SECOND watch, *AND* in the THIRD watch he come and find them thus, blessed are those bondmen.”   This is TWO COMINGS that Christ mentioned, that would result in blessing if the bondmen were faithfully watching for His return on BOTH of those occasions.
 
  Well, ACTUALLY, most translations read "or", not "and". But prets must invent something to try to boost their doctrine.

Quote
#2)  Hosea 6:3  -  This is a companion verse to its virtual duplicate in the NT book of James.  “Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; AND HE SHALL *COME TO US* AS THE RAIN, as the LATTER and FORMER RAIN unto the earth.” 

The time for these TWO rainy seasons in Israel were quite distinct and predictable, with the “latter rain” coming in the season of Passover and The Pentecost Feast of Weeks, and the “former rain” coming around October/November and the Feast of Tabernacles.  Christ was going to time His coming returns at times of the year that would match these two rainy season periods in Israel.

  Well, ACTUALLY, the verse means Jesus will return as surely as those 2 rainy periods come.

[quote[#3)  James 5:7-9  -  This is where James copies the language of God’s TWO comings in Hosea 6:3, and gives more details.  He had just been warning the rich men (who had been oppressing the poor) not to heap treasure together IN THE LAST DAYS.  To comfort those believers oppressed by these rich men, James then said, “Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the COMING OF THE LORD.  Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until it receive the EARLY and LATTER RAIN.  Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the COMING OF THE LORD HAS DRAWN NEAR.  Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: Behold, the judge STANDETH BEFORE THE DOOR."

 
Here we have the TWO rainy seasons, again compared to the TWO comings of the Lord.[/quote]

 Again, this refers to the sureness of His return, sure as the coming of those rains.


God himself was the husbandman (John 15:1), waiting for the results of the TWO harvests to come, timed to occur during the seasons of the “early” and the “latter rain”.  The “harvests” would be the “precious fruit” of the resurrected saints’ incorruptible physical bodies coming out of the grave on those TWO occasions. 

Quote
“PRECIOUS in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints.”  The dead bodies of the saints are indeed precious to the God who made them, and He has been willing to wait with very long patience over the millennia until those TWO harvests finally gather all of them to be in His presence.

In James’ days, that first coming harvest and its judgment was so imminent that James said the judge was already standing at the door.  Christ’s coming had definitely “drawn NEAR” for that harvest soon to come for the first-century generation.  Since then, God the “husbandman” has again been patiently waiting for the next harvest of the saints’ bodies at the close of the New Covenant Age in our future.

  Your prob is, it hasn't happened yet.

Quote
And I have definitely done much study and many posts over 7 years of who the Israelite 144,000 saints were.  The 144,000 were called the “First-fruits” in Rev. 14:4.  Just as Christ was also called the “Firstfruits” from among the dead in I Cor. 15:20,23.  They shared the same title because they shared the same resurrection event.  Meaning these 144,000 are the Jewish Matthew 27:52-53 saints raised along with Christ from their graves in the area around Jerusalem   The 144,000 Firstfruits were not only predicted in the rituals of the Mosaic law, but their footprints are also all over the NT books, if one is on the alert to look for them.

  Well, ACTUALLY, only 36K will be Jews, 12K each from the tribes of Judah, Benjamin & Levi, the 3 tribes which make up the Jews. The rest will be Israelis from the other tribes.

  And they won't be "sealed" & made manifest til the beast is in power & the great trib arrives.

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robycop3,

You should change your handle to Warmonger.

Your picture of the future is very pessimistic. And I hate that stuff.

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Hi robycop3,

You say that most translations of Luke 12:38 use the word “or”  - not the word “and”, which would indicate two comings of Christ.  That means you admit that SOME TRANSLATIONS DO USE THE WORD “AND”, indicating two returns of Christ.  How is that a case of me “inventing” this idea, if some translations, such as the YLT version I have mentioned, are exactly as I have written this verse?

And when Hosea 6:3 says that “He will come unto us AS the rain”, that means His coming is in like manner to the timing of the two rainy seasons of the year.

You are using the exact same type of argument when you point out that Jesus was to come “in like manner AS ye have seen Him go into heaven”.  Meaning His coming return would be in similar fashion to His ascending bodily in the clouds when He had left this world (which I agree with).  Just “AS” the timing of Christ’s TWO returns would be similar in fashion to the timing of the two rainy seasons of the year in Israel.

And if you want to draw a line of distinction between the labels of “Israelite” and “Jewish” for the 144,000 Firstfruits, that’s fine with me.  It still applies to the bodies of the Israelite saints from those named tribes who were buried near Jerusalem, whose graves were opened, and who rose to incorruptible life along with Christ in AD 33. Christ put a seal on these Matt. 27:52-53 Firstfruits resurrected saints, so that this “remnant of the dead” from the First Resurrection were preserved from any hurt during Jerusalem’s second death as a nation (Rev. 20:6).

That means that many of those Matt. 27 resurrected saints were sitting INSIDE Jerusalem itself as the city was being brought down to the ground and finally burned up.  God mercifully used these incorruptible resurrected saints as evangelists in the dying city, right up to the very end when Christ returned and raptured them to heaven with the rest of the newly-resurrected saints.

They are also called the “camp of the saints” inside the “beloved city” as Jerusalem was being surrounded by the battle forces of “Gog”, a moniker for Simon bar Gioras’ army of 40,000 who surrounded Jerusalem in AD 69.

Offline robycop3

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  Please get it thru your head that Jesus did NOT return then!

  He mentioned only ONE return in His prophecies about it.

 And the 144K, first mentioned in Rev. 7, is not "sealed" until the punishments of the 7 seals are carried out. Obviously, this hasn't yet occurred.

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  Please get it thru your head that Jesus did NOT return then!

  He mentioned only ONE return in His prophecies about it.

 And the 144K, first mentioned in Rev. 7, is not "sealed" until the punishments of the 7 seals are carried out. Obviously, this hasn't yet occurred.

It was to happen "soon."  Now where's your literal comprehension?

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It was to happen "soon."  Now where's your literal comprehension?

  But it DIDN'T happen, very-obviously! OUR "soon" isn't JESUS' "soon".

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  But it DIDN'T happen, very-obviously! OUR "soon" isn't JESUS' "soon".

That statement shows your ignorance.

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That statement shows your ignorance.

  OK, then, prove they DID happen ! ! !