You made a point about not being a nation for 1900 years... once again as with the terms "soon" near" "at hand" it all depends upon "soon near at hand" to whom (God). Israel will never cease to be a nation (to God) what Israel ceases to be by humans definition is moot.
I believe God says things for our benefit. If the terms "soon" "near" "at hand" "never cease" etc. don't mean what they say then they mean nothing to us and are open to all kinds of interpretation.
David and Solomon proceeded from this point of view and the Jewish Temple was built based on this kind of interpretation of:
2 Samuel 7:12-13 (KJV)
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee
, which shall proceed out of thy bowels,
and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
Solomon's throne did not last forever. In fact it did not last two generations over the entire kingdom.
God's interpretation of 2 Samuel 7:12-13 is:
Zechariah 6:12-13 (KJV)
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
His throne is established forever and he is a priest on his throne.
So the way you personally believe (which only matters to you alone as when anyone
believes anything contrary to scriptural truth) does not matter when a biblical truth is presented to that is contrary to your opinion / belief... and you go ahead and believe what you want to anyway.
Preterists teach that the highlighted [2 Peter 3:10 and 12] refers only to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 CE. That the elements are temple elements used in daily operations and sacrifices. And the heavens in their interpolation is the covenant with God and further into the chapter the new heaven and new earth is just the New Covenant.
I imagine quite a few Preterists (even full Preterists) are unaware of this teaching...
I have only been studying Preterism for about 4 months now, and I was fully aware of this. I would say though that I believe the elements are also referring to the same thing Paul talks about in Galatians 4 and Colossians 2. I'm also not in total agreement with the portion I highlighted above. I think there's more to that. In fact, this is the bulk of my OP.. the reasoning behind the belief that Peter is not referring to the physical heavens and earth and an explanation of the alternative.
Did you happen to read through the entire post?
I'm sorry, which post are you referring to?
The OP, especially what I posted about 1 Peter 3's "heavens and earth".[/quote]
Oh yes yes yes... You cited the destruction of the earth by the flood... but the destruction of the heaven and the earth by fire also gives way to a new heaven and new earth where there will be no light of the sun or moon or the stars. Now are we to just spiritualize all these to mean as Demar and Gentry teach "where is the promise of this earth-changing heaven-changing return? for things will continue on just as they are since the beginning of creation...
Isn't this the heresy of Peter is wraning against???
I was not trying to name call anyone. In fact I should have said that any belief system that holds to replacement theology is antisemitic in that belief. Preterism holds to replacement theology does it not? Rhetorical question. To keep this brief I will only cite the verses and those interested can look them up. Jeremiah 31:31-34 is the Gospel in the OT. Immediately after are verses 35-37 regarding God not being through (finished with Israel) as well as Romans 11:28 (just after the grafted in verses of the Olive tree verses 16-26). I'm done.
I guess it would truly depend on how you define antisemitic. Would you say it encompasses anyone who does not adhere to Christian Zionism?
Depends on how you define Christian Zionism.
I define it like this:
You are antizionst then are you?
Romans 11:28 (KJV)
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
This verse means nothing?
Better brush up on what Preterists believe. All the promises of Israel bestowed upon the Church is how one of the Preterists here said it... replacement theology by any other name still smells as rotten...
Again, how can the church be said to replace Israel when it is in itself the very fulfillment of the promises made to the remnant? Isaiah 10:22, Romans 9:27
These passages speak of Israel the physical and Israel the Spiritual (Romans 9:6 in another manner of speaking). And I agree there is no truth to replacement theology.
Preterists feign not to believe in replacement theology but when push comes to shove they HAVE
to in order to distinguish the destruction of the temple and city in 70 CE from the destruction of the temple and city in 586 BCE.
Matthew 24 (KJV)
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The great tribulation was not 70 CE because it is what happened in 586 BCE and even happened on the very same date of the Hebrew calendar year (Tisha b'av). So there is a great tribulation to come. Preterists tried to explain their way around this by saying it was different because God turned away from Israel to... fill in the blank it's replacement theology no matter how you slice it.