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Offline beforetime

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Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« on: Thu May 22, 2014 - 11:18:12 »
I've been into preterist theology for a while and see a grouping of camps, partial and full preterist.  Which scriptures are used to prove a future coming of Christ by the partial preterist; and a no show by the full. It's seems to me the time indicators in the NT provide evidence of a 70 AD coming judgment of the Nation of Israel. This leaves the question open is there going to be a third advent? It would be helpful providing scriptures at this point without, for now,  interference of the letter of Revelation loaded with symbolism.

Thanks

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Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« on: Thu May 22, 2014 - 11:18:12 »

notreligus

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #1 on: Thu May 22, 2014 - 11:50:32 »
Which coming was the Second Revolt (Bar Kokhba)?   The Romans killed another 600,000 Jews just 60+ years after A.D. 70 (The Great Jewish Revolt).  Using Preterist logic that would have to be a "third coming."   

Offline fish153

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #2 on: Thu May 22, 2014 - 13:06:18 »
Which coming was the Second Revolt (Bar Kokhba)?   The Romans killed another 600,000 Jews just 60+ years after A.D. 70 (The Great Jewish Revolt).  Using Preterist logic that would have to be a "third coming."   

What preterists don't seem to realize, it seems, is that often God can have two meanings for one scripture.  I will give one example:

"When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt" (Hosea 11:1)

This is cleary a reference to the Israelites in the time of Moses, when God delivered them from Egypt.

However, In Matthew 2:15 we read the following (when Jesus is a babe and his parents come back to Israel and dwell in Nazareth):

"And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son".(Matt. 2:15)

In this reference a historical verse of Scripture referring to Israel is ALSO used to refer to the deliverance of the very Son of God from his enemies as a babe.  So, the Lord is using one Scripture to speak of two totally different events.

When Preterists state that everything was fulfilled in 70 AD they are failing to see that scripture may be referring to a past event, while also referring to a present or future event also.  Jerusalem may have been "surrounded by armies" in 70AD---but it is also surrounded by armies at the present time also----as all of Israel's enemies surround her, and threaten to wipe her off the face of the earth.   

I think preterists should take note of occurrences like Hosea 11:1/Matthew 2:15 before stating that all has been fulfilled, and that there is no reference to future prophetic events.

We have no way of knowing if a past prophecy or statement is also referring to some future event---until it is fulfilled and we realize the full intention of the scripture.
« Last Edit: Thu May 22, 2014 - 13:22:39 by fish153 »

Offline beforetime

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #3 on: Thu May 22, 2014 - 13:45:42 »
Thanks for responding
Quote
Which coming was the Second Revolt (Bar Kokhba)?   The Romans killed another 600,000 Jews just 60+ years after A.D. 70 (The Great Jewish Revolt).  Using Preterist logic that would have to be a "third coming."

Doesn't this leave out audience reverence concerning a third coming, and I'm not sure of the logic referred to.

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #4 on: Thu May 22, 2014 - 14:00:31 »
Thanks for responding

Quote
We have no way of knowing if a past prophecy or statement is also referring to some future event---until it is fulfilled and we realize the full intention of the scripture.

If this is referring to a future kingdom concerning observation; Jesus implied in so many words  it doesn't come in like manner to witness it. What can we anticipate to take place if it is a realized fulfillment.

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #4 on: Thu May 22, 2014 - 14:00:31 »



Offline raggthyme13

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #5 on: Thu May 22, 2014 - 14:07:54 »
I've been into preterist theology for a while and see a grouping of camps, partial and full preterist.  Which scriptures are used to prove a future coming of Christ by the partial preterist; and a no show by the full. It's seems to me the time indicators in the NT provide evidence of a 70 AD coming judgment of the Nation of Israel. This leaves the question open is there going to be a third advent? It would be helpful providing scriptures at this point without, for now,  interference of the letter of Revelation loaded with symbolism.

Thanks

I'm so glad you asked. I've been wondering how partial preterists distinguish between the scriptures that concern the coming of Christ in judgment against Jerusalem, first century and a future coming. Looking forward to some answers. :)

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #6 on: Thu May 22, 2014 - 15:49:51 »
I've been into preterist theology for a while and see a grouping of camps, partial and full preterist.  Which scriptures are used to prove a future coming of Christ by the partial preterist; and a no show by the full. It's seems to me the time indicators in the NT provide evidence of a 70 AD coming judgment of the Nation of Israel. This leaves the question open is there going to be a third advent? It would be helpful providing scriptures at this point without, for now,  interference of the letter of Revelation loaded with symbolism.

Thanks
The main scripture that I see standard, full preterists use is Luke 21:22:
For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

If we allow that Luke includes all of the OT prophecies, then it follows that most NT prophecies are also included, since the gospels largely build on Isaiah, Acts relies on Joel and Amos' prophecies, Hebrews follows Psalms, Revelation builds on Daniel, and so on and so forth.

Anyway, to your point about the Bar Kochba rebellion -

I see the New Testament as establishing a Tribulation week.  It doesn't just foretell a singular event such as the destruction of the temple, or Jerusalem, or even the coming with the cloud.  I believe that the week of vengeance includes an entire aeon/age that starts roughly at that time, and ends after the Bar Kochba rebellion was put down.

The purpose of that age, appears to be to separate the "wheat from the chaff," and to make the church "come out of" metaphorical Babylon.  The tribulation week accomplishes the separation of faithful Israel from the rest of the physical nation that also goes by that name, which isn't really the seed of Abraham.

I do allow for the possibility of a future event, though not sure I'd call it an "advent."  I don't believe God is coming back to the earth again in a physical form, to rule, as the futurists do.  I find it possible that at some point the Lord's reign from heaven will finish accomplishing its work, and that the world will end, and we will have the Judgment, as this verse seems to indicate.

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

I'm not dogmatic about the final point.  Other verses seem to indicate that the Lord's reign from heaven will last forever.  I'm not sure what "delivering up the kingdom" looks like.  Maybe it doesn't look much different from what comes before it.

Jarrod


*Probably I should mention that nothing about my beliefs is really in line with either the full or partial 'camps' you mention.

Offline LetGodBeTrue

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #7 on: Thu May 22, 2014 - 16:18:29 »
Jarrod, you are certainly welcome to your opinion, but really that is all it is.  The disciples asked about the end of Judaism (inseparably connected to the Temple that was to be completely destroyed).  The great tribulation was associated with that time in the events leading up to it and including it.  John calls himself a brother and companion in THE tribulation.   Luke quotes Jesus as referring to the tribulation as the days of vengeance (Luke 21).

I see no biblical justification for forcing the tribulation beyond the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70, and I think you would be hard pressed to support your contention.  Furthermore, I do not see the purpose in it.  There is no biblical significance in the Bar Kochba revolt and there is no biblical significance in the Holocaust.  The power of the holy people was completely shattered in AD 70 (completed at Masada - AD 73).  Those who call themselves Jews are merely an outgrowth of those apostate, non-covenant "Jews" of Jesus' day--they were and continue to be those who call themselves Jews but are not--they are of the synagogue of Satan (Rev. 2:9 and 3:9).  Those Jews of AD 132-135 were just as much frauds as those who claim to be Jews today.  True Jews have always been those who are the spiritual seed of Abraham through faith--through circumcision of the heart and not of the flesh.
« Last Edit: Thu May 22, 2014 - 19:32:51 by LetGodBeTrue »

Offline fish153

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #8 on: Thu May 22, 2014 - 18:09:12 »
Jarrod, you are certainly welcome to your opinion, but really that is all it is.  The disciples asked about the end of Judaism (inseparably connected to the Temple that was to be completely destroyed).  The great tribulation was associated with that time in the events leading up to it and including it.  John calls himself a brother and companion in THE tribulation.   Luke quotes Jesus as referring to the tribulation as the days of vengeance (Luke 21).

I see no biblical justification for forcing the tribulation beyond the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70, and I think you would be hard pressed to support your contention.  Furthermore, I do not see the purpose in it.  There is no biblical significance in the Bar Kochba revolt and there is no biblical significance in the Holocaust.  The power of the holy people was completely shattered in AD 70 (completed at Masada - AD 73).  Those who call themselves Jews are merely an outgrowth of those apostate, non-covenant "Jews" of Jesus' day--they were and continue to be those who call themselves Jews but are not--they are of the synagogue of Satan (Rev. 1:9; 2:9).  Those Jews of AD 132-135 were just as much frauds as those who claim to be Jews today.  True Jews have always been those who are the spiritual seed of Abraham through faith--through circumcision of the heart and not of the flesh.

Preterism is the only branch of Christianity that allows for anti-semitism.  Perhaps that is why some embrace it.

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #9 on: Thu May 22, 2014 - 19:10:53 »
Quote
Preterism is the only branch of Christianity that allows for anti-semitism.  Perhaps that is why some embrace it

I'm of  the Jewish Nationality haven't as yet  come across suggestions or expressions that the preterist view is advocating Anti-Semitism; can you make available some information leading to that conclusion. 

Offline beforetime

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #10 on: Thu May 22, 2014 - 19:13:54 »
Quote
I'm so glad you asked. I've been wondering how partial preterist distinguish between the scriptures that concern the coming of Christ in judgment against Jerusalem, first century and a future coming. Looking forward to some answers

I'm with you, it seems a no show of the second advent is taboo.. Take Matthew 24:36 ff with Revelation 20-21 element out of the mix and it puts a damper on the Partial camp. Perhaps a much needed clarification to the question from those more informed on the subject will post it.

Larry

Offline LetGodBeTrue

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #11 on: Thu May 22, 2014 - 19:50:59 »
beforetime, I didn't say those words about the Jews--Jesus did.  Look at the things He called them in Matthew 23 and look again at Revelation 2:9 and 3:9.  Jesus Himself said they were a synagogue of Satan.  That which calls itself Israel today is not OT Israel.  It is a creation of the U. N. and not of God.  People throw around the words racism and anti-semitism when they don't like what someone is saying--especially if there is much truth to it.  I view modern Israel as no different than other nations.  All unsaved of all nations must repent of their sin and place their faith in the God of spiritual Israel--those circumcised in their hearts and not in their flesh.  The true anti-semitism is the attacks against the Church--the true Israel of God.

Futurists fail to see this, and their misplaced love affair with modern Israel has done great harm to this nation's foreign policy.  The Church does not even recognize that She and She alone is the apple of God's eye.  Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ are the true Jews.  God's blessings and cursings involving the treatment of His people pertains to Christians and not those who today call themselves Jews.

I make no apology for my stance on modern Israel.  I bear no ill will toward the people of that nation, but she is nothing special in God's eyes.  She is a nation of disobedient, unbelievers no different from those God-defiers of Palestine.  All are enemies of God as long as they remain lost in their sinful disobedience to Him.

The Bible is clear who true Jews are and those of modern-day Israel do not qualify. 

Romans 2:28-29
New King James Version (NKJV)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Offline raggthyme13

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #12 on: Thu May 22, 2014 - 21:00:20 »
Jarrod, you are certainly welcome to your opinion, but really that is all it is.  The disciples asked about the end of Judaism (inseparably connected to the Temple that was to be completely destroyed).  The great tribulation was associated with that time in the events leading up to it and including it.  John calls himself a brother and companion in THE tribulation.   Luke quotes Jesus as referring to the tribulation as the days of vengeance (Luke 21).

I see no biblical justification for forcing the tribulation beyond the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70, and I think you would be hard pressed to support your contention.  Furthermore, I do not see the purpose in it.  There is no biblical significance in the Bar Kochba revolt and there is no biblical significance in the Holocaust.  The power of the holy people was completely shattered in AD 70 (completed at Masada - AD 73).  Those who call themselves Jews are merely an outgrowth of those apostate, non-covenant "Jews" of Jesus' day--they were and continue to be those who call themselves Jews but are not--they are of the synagogue of Satan (Rev. 1:9; 2:9).  Those Jews of AD 132-135 were just as much frauds as those who claim to be Jews today.  True Jews have always been those who are the spiritual seed of Abraham through faith--through circumcision of the heart and not of the flesh.

Preterism is the only branch of Christianity that allows for anti-semitism.  Perhaps that is why some embrace it.

If you label the view which believes that "true Jews have always been those who are the spiritual seed of Abraham through faith--through circumcision of the heart and not of the flesh" anti-Semitic, remember it was Paul the Apostle who taught us this very thing.

God made promises to the remnant of Israel that He fulfilled in the first century (Rom 11:5).. how do you consider the modern Jewish people of special significance in light of verses like 1 Pet 2:9 and Rom 2:29?
« Last Edit: Thu May 22, 2014 - 21:03:43 by raggthyme13 »

Offline fish153

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #13 on: Thu May 22, 2014 - 23:00:43 »
Quote
Preterism is the only branch of Christianity that allows for anti-semitism.  Perhaps that is why some embrace it

I'm of  the Jewish Nationality haven't as yet  come across suggestions or expressions that the preterist view is advocating Anti-Semitism; can you make available some information leading to that conclusion. 


Surely---here you go---it's only a few posts below:

>>>>Those who call themselves Jews are merely an outgrowth of those apostate, non-covenant "Jews" of Jesus' day--they were and continue to be those who call themselves Jews but are not--they are of the synagogue of Satan (Rev. 1:9; 2:9).  Those Jews of AD 132-135 were just as much frauds as those who claim to be Jews today.<<<<

The nation of Israel is comprised of true Jewish people. They may be in unbelief at the moment, but they are not "frauds".  God promised to restore Israel to their own land---and He has done so.  Preterists do not believe the formation of the nation of Israel means anything----they easily label them "the synagogue of Satan". Because Preterists hold no future blessings for the people of Israel, they can easily spew out hatred against that people.  It truly is the one branch of Christianity that does allow anti-semitism in it's ranks. Call it what you want----but it is anti-semitism cloaked under an eschatalogical flag.

I might add that if the preterist calls Jews of AD132-135 "frauds", then the 6 million who were murdered in the Holocaust were also "frauds".  Satan has always had a supreme hatred for the Jews---He tried to (through the Nazi regime) obliterate them during World War 2.  It's truly a miracle that 3-4 years after 6 million of them were murdered they were able to form their own country.  This was no accident---this was the miraculous work of God.
« Last Edit: Thu May 22, 2014 - 23:15:49 by fish153 »

Offline raggthyme13

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #14 on: Thu May 22, 2014 - 23:32:04 »
Quote
Preterism is the only branch of Christianity that allows for anti-semitism.  Perhaps that is why some embrace it

I'm of  the Jewish Nationality haven't as yet  come across suggestions or expressions that the preterist view is advocating Anti-Semitism; can you make available some information leading to that conclusion. 


Surely---here you go---it's only a few posts below:

>>>>Those who call themselves Jews are merely an outgrowth of those apostate, non-covenant "Jews" of Jesus' day--they were and continue to be those who call themselves Jews but are not--they are of the synagogue of Satan (Rev. 1:9; 2:9).  Those Jews of AD 132-135 were just as much frauds as those who claim to be Jews today.<<<<

The nation of Israel is comprised of true Jewish people. They may be in unbelief at the moment, but they are not "frauds".  God promised to restore Israel to their own land---and He has done so.  Preterists do not believe the formation of the nation of Israel means anything----they easily label them "the synagogue of Satan". Because Preterists hold no future blessings for the people of Israel, they can easily spew out hatred against that people.  It truly is the one branch of Christianity that does allow anti-semitism in it's ranks. Call it what you want----but it is anti-semitism cloaked under an eschatalogical flag.

I might add that if the preterist calls Jews of AD132-135 "frauds", then the 6 million who were murdered in the Holocaust were also "frauds".  Satan has always had a supreme hatred for the Jews---He tried to (through the Nazi regime) obliterate them during World War 2.  It's truly a miracle that 3-4 years after 6 million of them were murdered they were able to form their own country.  This was no accident---this was the miraculous work of God.

Satan's attempts to destroy Israel in biblical history is directly related to the promised coming of Messiah. He tried to destroy them because it is written that the  Savior would be born through them. But what purpose would he have in cutting off 6 million Jews today? Messiah has already come from the line of David.. it's done. He failed to thwart God's plan of redemption.

As to preterists being anti-Semitic, I suppose there are some who fit into that category. But I would not agree that the modern Jews are or have anything to do with the "synagogue of Satan" spoken of in the Revelation. That referred to a specific group in the end of the age who persecuted God's holy nation (the church) in THAT generation. I consider the modern nation of Israel a political people, no different from any other people group. God has only one holy nation.. and all men (no matter their race or religion) are invited to become part of it through faith in His Son.

This is not hatred of the Jewish people.. it's biblical!



Sorry for going off topic, beforetime.
« Last Edit: Fri May 23, 2014 - 00:28:29 by raggthyme13 »

Offline beforetime

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #15 on: Fri May 23, 2014 - 00:07:16 »
Quote
beforetime, I didn't say those words about the Jews--Jesus did.  Look at the things He called them in Matthew 23 and look again at Revelation 2:9 and 3:9.  Jesus Himself said they were a synagogue of Satan.  That which calls itself Israel today is not OT Israel.  It is a creation of the U. N. and not of God.  People throw around the words racism and anti-semitism when they don't like what someone is saying--especially if there is much truth to it.  I view modern Israel as no different than other nations.  All unsaved of all nations must repent of their sin and place their faith in the God of spiritual Israel--those circumcised in their hearts and not in their flesh.  The true anti-semitism is the attacks against the Church--the true Israel of God.

I took no offence, I agree God is not a respecter of men. Nor are we to judge any man, believer or none believer. Christ will judge the heart of all of us according to His Fathers will. Not all Jews from the first century, or now are any different. I have the same opinion that the Israel of God are now His chosen, called according to His purpose. Romans 8:28-30

Jesus and the Apostles and the first century true believers stood in a favorable position with their Heavenly Father. The only peace that counts, not from the UN, is peace with God through Christ. Romans 5:1 Bottom line as you said, . "I view modern Israel as no different than other nations"

Thanks for clearing up your potion

Nonetheless, I think the first-fruits Jews were the Hebrew Christian Mother church; the 144k spoken of in Revelation 7. 

I would like to go back to some thoughts on a future expectation of the Lord's coming, the pro's and con's from both camps. As of now I'm kind of sitting on a fence looking on both sides of it.

Larry

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #16 on: Fri May 23, 2014 - 06:30:44 »
I agree, raggthyme, that those who call themselves Jews today are not actually of that group addressed in Revelation as the synagogue of Satan.  Those Jesus condemned and judged were specifically Jews of His generation.  I meant to convey that modern-day "Jews" are like those of that day in that they call themselves Jews but are not.  I believe there is that similarity and cross-over.  They call themselves Jews but they are not because they are not spiritual Jews circumcised in their hearts.  Because they are not the people of God and are merely a political group, as you rightly state, there can be no real anti-semitism against them in the sense that people throw that term about.  The modern Jew is no different than all people's of all nations.  Each is accountable to God for his disobedience, sin, and works of righteousness.  There is and has always been but one people of God, those of faith.  Abraham was saved BEFORE there was a nation.  The Bible is clear that true "Jews" come out of that same faith which makes them of the spiritual seed of Abraham--those of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, those circumcised in their hearts by grace.

This takes us back to the topic.  Those who wait for the Second Coming of Christ are exhibiting the same faithlessness and error those Jews of Jesus' day exhibited.  The OT Jews missed His Advent because they misunderstood how He would come or outright rejected how He was to come; futurists have missed His Second Coming because they insist that He come in a way He never promised to come.  Because Partial Preterists, like futurists, await a visible, bodily return of Christ, physical bodies popping up out of graves, and an end-of-the-world judgment, they have missed the Second Coming.  As a result, because PF acknowledge that He came in a restricted, limited way in AD 70, they, therefore, await a third coming.

Offline fish153

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #17 on: Fri May 23, 2014 - 10:02:44 »
Quote
Preterism is the only branch of Christianity that allows for anti-semitism.  Perhaps that is why some embrace it

I'm of  the Jewish Nationality haven't as yet  come across suggestions or expressions that the preterist view is advocating Anti-Semitism; can you make available some information leading to that conclusion. 


Surely---here you go---it's only a few posts below:

>>>>Those who call themselves Jews are merely an outgrowth of those apostate, non-covenant "Jews" of Jesus' day--they were and continue to be those who call themselves Jews but are not--they are of the synagogue of Satan (Rev. 1:9; 2:9).  Those Jews of AD 132-135 were just as much frauds as those who claim to be Jews today.<<<<

The nation of Israel is comprised of true Jewish people. They may be in unbelief at the moment, but they are not "frauds".  God promised to restore Israel to their own land---and He has done so.  Preterists do not believe the formation of the nation of Israel means anything----they easily label them "the synagogue of Satan". Because Preterists hold no future blessings for the people of Israel, they can easily spew out hatred against that people.  It truly is the one branch of Christianity that does allow anti-semitism in it's ranks. Call it what you want----but it is anti-semitism cloaked under an eschatalogical flag.

I might add that if the preterist calls Jews of AD132-135 "frauds", then the 6 million who were murdered in the Holocaust were also "frauds".  Satan has always had a supreme hatred for the Jews---He tried to (through the Nazi regime) obliterate them during World War 2.  It's truly a miracle that 3-4 years after 6 million of them were murdered they were able to form their own country.  This was no accident---this was the miraculous work of God.

Satan's attempts to destroy Israel in biblical history is directly related to the promised coming of Messiah. He tried to destroy them because it is written that the  Savior would be born through them. But what purpose would he have in cutting off 6 million Jews today? Messiah has already come from the line of David.. it's done. He failed to thwart God's plan of redemption.

As to preterists being anti-Semitic, I suppose there are some who fit into that category. But I would not agree that the modern Jews are or have anything to do with the "synagogue of Satan" spoken of in the Revelation. That referred to a specific group in the end of the age who persecuted God's holy nation (the church) in THAT generation. I consider the modern nation of Israel a political people, no different from any other people group. God has only one holy nation.. and all men (no matter their race or religion) are invited to become part of it through faith in His Son.

This is not hatred of the Jewish people.. it's biblical!



Sorry for going off topic, beforetime.

raggthyme---

Satan does not know when Christ will return. As Jesus said "No one knows the day nor the hour".  However, Satan can read the Word of God just as anyone can.  He tried to kill Jesus due to the prophecy of a birth in Bethlehem (He attempted this through King Herod).

Bible Prophecy clearly states that Israel will become a nation again one day.  It also states that that nation will turn to the Messiah in "one day".  Because Satan is aware of this, what did he try to do?  If there are no Jews, there can be no resurrected nation, and if there is no nation, there is none to turn to God in "one day".

Satan knew something huge was about to happen concerning the Jews. In 1917 the Balfour Declaration had been made.  His murdering of 6 million Jews through the Nazi regime was an attempt at keeping the formation of a nation from taking place. But God used his evil attempt for good---swaying world opinion, and allowing a country to be born miraculously.  Imagine that---a nation of Jews is born just 4 years after an attempt was made to wipe them off the face of the earth!

Again, I would point out that Satan has no idea when Christ will return--he can only read prophecy, and study the signs and the times as we do. Hitler was a failed attempt to bring forth the Anti-Christ.  The time was not right--but Satan didn't know that.  As I mentioned before--Hilter is a fore-shadow of that evil man.  Imagine if Hitler had had computers, satellites, the internet and advanced weaponry (Nuclear weapons)!  The true Anti-Christ will have all of these things at his disposal.

One thing is certain. Satan still hates the Jewish people. They are surrounded by enemies, with Iran declaring they will wipe them off the face of the earth, or push them into the ocean. Anti-Semitism has never gone away----in fact it is growing in strength throughout the world. Satan knows by prophecy that Messiah will appear once again to the nation of Israel----so one of his goals is to destroy that nation before that can happen.  Praise God he will not succeed---the nation of Israel will never again be moved.
« Last Edit: Fri May 23, 2014 - 10:15:16 by fish153 »

Offline beforetime

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #18 on: Fri May 23, 2014 - 11:52:25 »
Quote
The OT Jews missed His Advent because they misunderstood how He would come or outright rejected how He was to come; futurists have missed His Second Coming because they insist that He come in a way He never promised to come.  Because Partial Preterists, like futurists, await a visible, bodily return of Christ, physical bodies popping up out of graves, and an end-of-the-world judgment, they have missed the Second Coming.  As a result, because PF acknowledge that He came in a restricted, limited way in AD 70, they, therefore, await a third coming.

Thanks for that point, and  by no means did I see it in that light. "Those who anticipate His coming in the future  missed the second revisit in AD 70." Like the first century religious leader and futurist of the  day are looking for an observable corporeal Kingdom in Luke 17: 20,21 There are many today with a bible in one hand and a Newspaper in the other to provide last days evidence. I estimate Christians desire something tangible they can put their hands on.

I think the scriptures PP stand-on is the so called second half of the Olivet Discourse, and a literal understanding of Revelation 20-21 Together with John 5:28,29 implying a biological resurrection. I would like to touch of these verses though I have some idea concerning them.



Larry

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #19 on: Fri May 23, 2014 - 12:46:41 »
The disciples asked about the end of Judaism (inseparably connected to the Temple that was to be completely destroyed).  The great tribulation was associated with that time in the events leading up to it and including it.  John calls himself a brother and companion in THE tribulation.   Luke quotes Jesus as referring to the tribulation as the days of vengeance (Luke 21).
I don't disagree that it is the days of vengeance, nor that Luke 21 is talking about the tribulation.  Not sure if we're understanding each other here...

I see no biblical justification for forcing the tribulation beyond the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70, and I think you would be hard pressed to support your contention.  Furthermore, I do not see the purpose in it.  There is no biblical significance in the Bar Kochba revolt and there is no biblical significance in the Holocaust.  The power of the holy people was completely shattered in AD 70 (completed at Masada - AD 73).  Those who call themselves Jews are merely an outgrowth of those apostate, non-covenant "Jews" of Jesus' day--they were and continue to be those who call themselves Jews but are not--they are of the synagogue of Satan (Rev. 2:9 and 3:9).  Those Jews of AD 132-135 were just as much frauds as those who claim to be Jews today.  True Jews have always been those who are the spiritual seed of Abraham through faith--through circumcision of the heart and not of the flesh.
Jewish writings, and apocalypses in particular, use "weeks" of generations in their predictions to the point that it's almost a meme.  Daniel uses them.  We had a discussion about "weeks" in Enoch in this forum not long ago.  The Book of Jasher uses them.  They're in the Talmuds.  And so on and so forth. 

Revelation has its weeks as well, and it has a 3 1/2 year period (half a week) and says that the time is "shortened," for the elect's sake.

All the rest of those books use their weeks to describe generations.  It's natural to expect Revelation to do the same.  So Revelation is talking about a period of about 3 1/2 generations.  Does that fit with the roughly 70 years between 66AD (beginning of revolt) and 135AD (end of Bar Kochba rebellion)?  Yeah, it does.

Besides, your contention that the Jewish state was shattered in 70AD is just plain wrong:

The Sanhedrin didn't stop functioning at that time, and the Jews continued to be ruled by the leaders of the Sanhedrin (the Nasi and the Av Bet Din). 

The Hillel v. Shammai schools were at the height of their power during this time. 

The Mishnah was written during this time. 

The Jews themselves view this as something of a golden age of Judaism.  That doesn't sound like they were shattered, or sent into diaspora to me...

The final straw is this - the Jews actually defeated the Romans and became an independent state in 132/133.  Could a nation that no longer exists defeat the Roman empire?

There's a reason that historians label the period from 66-135AD collectively as the "Jewish-Roman wars."  The destruction began in 66, but the Jews were not thoroughly ousted from their land until almost 70 years later.

Jarrod

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #20 on: Fri May 23, 2014 - 13:01:33 »
Preterism is the only branch of Christianity that allows for anti-semitism.  Perhaps that is why some embrace it.
Sadly, no it isn't.  Hitler's Germany was largely Lutheran.  "British Israelism" was a mainstay of the Anglican church a century ago, and remains an unfortunately popular view among Charismatics.  We could go on and on and on...

Jarrod

Offline LetGodBeTrue

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #21 on: Fri May 23, 2014 - 18:29:36 »
Preterists are NOT anti-semitic.  How's this for "anti-semtism."  "We love you Jews--you're God's people.  We can't wait until the Anti-Christ comes and persecute you and makes you go through unspeakable atrocities so that many of you are killed.  We love you Jews, and we can't wait for the Rapture so that we get out of town while all these things come upon YOU.  But we love you." 

Yeah, preterists are anti-semitic, right?

Offline LetGodBeTrue

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #22 on: Fri May 23, 2014 - 19:18:27 »
Jesus definitely said THESE be the days of vengeance (Luke 21).  Daniel spoke of a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation.  This is the same time of trouble Jesus predicted would come in HIS generation (Dan. 12; Matthew 24).  Daniel also speaks of 1290 DAYS.  These days began when the sacrifices ceased.  They were actual days (3 1/2 YEARS).  There are also the 42 MONTHS of Revelation 11:2 which also corresponds with the actual 3 1/2 YEARS.  It is absolutely NOT natural to expect Revelation to be taking those 1290 DAYS as generations.  There is no "WEEKS" in the Revelation. Just because something is coincidental and seems to fit does not make it right.  There is no justification for not taking these DAYS and YEARS of the Revelation as literal time frames since they clearly fit into John's "SHORTLY come to pass" and "NEAR" aspects of the vision given to him by our Lord!  And they match the historical record.

As for the power of the holy people being completely shattered--I didn't say that--Daniel did.  And he said when it would happen. He spoke of that time that accompanied the time of the end--the same end the disciples asked about; the end that had to do with that current age.  It was that time of the ending of that age that would involve the ending of the sacrifices ("when the power of the holy people HAS BEEN COMPLETELY SHATTERED, ALL THESE THINGS shall be FINISHED" [Dan. 12:7).  The power of THOSE once "holy" people was completely shattered in the destruction of that which made them "holy"--their city and their Temple.  Judaism lost its foundations--ALL records were destroy.  There is no longer any ancestry and no legitimate priesthood.  After AD 70 there no longer was a Jewish "holy people."  There were certainly those who called themselves Jews--but they were not the OT Jews referred to as the "holy people."  The power of THOSE people who enslaved the people through their laws and ceremonies was no more.  It was not a political power--it was a religious power.  It was completely shattered.  Again, not MY words.

Why do you look for a time subsequent to THAT generation for fulfillment?  It all came to pass just as Jesus predicted it would. 

Offline beforetime

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #23 on: Fri May 23, 2014 - 19:55:13 »
Quote
The final straw is this - the Jews actually defeated the Romans and became an independent state in 132/133.  Could a nation that no longer exists defeat the Roman empire?
Thanks for the suggestions

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Can you scripturally support that the discourse on the Mount of Olives was referring  to the quote. I'm interested to see how scriptures concerning these events was the intent of  prophecy.  I agree there was much that happened to the Jewish Nation post AD 70, however did the sacrifices as related in the OT continue without a temple. Daniel 12:11

Perhaps I'm answering a question you did not imply, if so what is the gist of it. And how does it scripturally contradicts those posting on this thread.
There is no question Israel is alive and well; however the only message I'm getting is they stand before God no different than any other Nation. I believe the shattering was not annihilation but a turning point from the OT to the NT. The destuction of the temple was a sign of that truth IMHO.

Larry

Offline LetGodBeTrue

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #24 on: Fri May 23, 2014 - 20:08:57 »
beforetime, although I disagree with DeMar on some important things, I do like his description of what you said about believers having the Bible in one hand the newspaper in the other.  It is definitely "newspaper exegesis."   

I see no reason for dividing up the Olivet Discourse and feel that PPs do it out of necessity to uphold their paradigm and not because such a division is naturally found there.  The audience is still the same "you" throughout Matthew 24 and 25.  And WE are NOT the YE! Matthew 25:31 brings us right back to the similar wording Jesus used in 24:30-31--the time frame being THAT generation in which Jesus and His disciples lived.  All of Matthew 24 and 25 fall under the confines of the "THIS generation."

Matthew 24:30-31  "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven , and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and THEY will see the Son of Man COMING on the clouds of heaven with POWER and great GLORY.  And He will send His ANGELS with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds" ("THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL THESE THINGS take place"--verse 34, that clearly includes verses 29-31).

Matthew 25:31  When the Son of Man COMES in His GLORY, and all the holy ANGELS with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His GLORY."

Since PPs have an erroneous concept of the nature of the judgment, they stumble over the judgment sections in these passages.  In spite of the clear timing, they reject it because it does not fit their preconceived ideas.  PPs will never become FPs until they entertain the possibility that they are misunderstanding the natures of the parousia, the resurrection, and the judgment.  Interestingly, Paul told the Athenians that God was ABOUT TO JUDGE the world in righteousness (Acts 17:31).  Paul stood before Felix and told him that judgment was ABOUT TO COME (Acts 24:25).  Felix became so disturbed about the IMPENDING judgment that he sent Paul away.  In defending himself before Felix, Paul told him that there was ABOUT TO BE a resurrection of the dead (Acts 24:15).  Unless Christians understands that the judgment was not some end of the world event in which all who have ever lived were made to stand physically before God to be judged for their works and that the resurrection was not physical bodies rising out of their physical graves, such passages will remain a mystery to them.

Further difficulties arise for PPs in John 5:28 and 29 because there is a misunderstanding of the meaning of "graves" and of the "dead."  It is my contention that the "dead" here is referring to those dead in their trespasses and sins.  That is why Jesus said the hour was coming but was also already there.  People were already being saved (raised from the death of their trespasses and sins).  But that was just the beginning.  The hour that was coming was that time Paul spoke of in Romans 13 and which Jesus predicted in Luke 21.  Those who has already believed were saved in the sense that their salvation was secured.  Nothing could separate them from the love of God in Christ Jesus.  However, since the high priest (Jesus) had not yet exited the heavenly holy of holies (which He did in AD 70), their salvation was not yet complete in a way that allowed them to enter into the heavenly realm.  Thus, though saved, they waited in Hades.  Jesus made this clear when He told those already SAVED disciples that when the things He predicted (Luke 21) began to take place, THEY were to lift up THEIR heads and look up because then THEIR salvation drew near.  Weren't the already saved?  Not in the sense that made them fitted for heaven.  Jesus told those very disciples standing right there with Him that although He was going away, He would come again and receive THEM unto Himself that where He was they would be also.  This was not possible before He came.

This is the salvation Jesus taught and Paul continued--the High Priest would in that generation exit the heavenly holy of holies, having completed the work of redemption, and return to bring His then fully redeemed people unto Himself that where He was THEY would be also.  Notice that Paul told those ALREADY SAVED  Roman saints that it was high time for THEM to awake from their sleep because THEIR salvation was NEARER than when they first BELIEVED (Rom. 13:11).  They had eternal salvation but not access to heaven!  I have yet to get a satisfactory exegesis of this passage from a PP.

Revelaton 20 and 21 clearly fits into the time frame of the vision John was given.  He was shown the things which were to SHORTLY take place; the time for their fulfillment was THEN near (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10).  It was so near that John, unlike Daniel, was told to NOT seal up the words of the prophecy.  And it is not without significance that Jesus declared at the end of Chapter 22--"Behold, I am coming SOON!"  The PP misunderstands the nature of the 1000 years, the Judgment, and the New Jerusalem and this causes them, again, to ignore or redefine the clear time indicators. 

Sadly, most people who attack FP and label it heresy either willfully or ignorantly misinterpret and misrepresent the FP position on these vital doctrines.  To understand the resurrection as having a different nature from what is customarily held does not make the FP a denier of the resurrection.  It seems to me that we have two approaches.  We can hold fast to the majority view of the second coming, the resurrection, and the judgment and accept the FACT that in so doing we must ignore or redefine the clear time statements, OR we can accept the clear time statements and accept the FACT that the majority view of those things does not fit the timing and, therefore, must be reassessed in light of the evidence!


Offline LetGodBeTrue

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #25 on: Fri May 23, 2014 - 20:18:11 »
You are exactly right, Larry.  The complete shattering of the "holy people" had to do with THAT generation of Jews under Jesus' condemnation (Matthew 23).  What political clout those after AD 70 who called themselves Jews had, it had nothing to do with the religious power those of Jesus' generation had over the people.  Their power was shattered when the true Israel of God was vindicated and emerged victorious  (AD 70).  All those who arise subsequently and claim to be OT Jews are irrelevant to Bible prophecy.  The events of the Revelation are finished because they pertain to the vindication of God's true people (the spiritual seed of Abraham and those circumcised in their hearts) and the complete eradication of the power of those OT Jews of THAT day.  They involve those things which were THEN to SHORTLY take place--and they did!

Offline beforetime

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #26 on: Sat May 24, 2014 - 01:47:43 »
Quote
Revelation 20 and 21 clearly fits into the time frame of the vision John was given.  He was shown the things which were to SHORTLY take place; the time for their fulfillment was THEN near (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10).

LetGodBeTrue  Well said, and I agree with the consistent time frame. I heard a talk by Ken Gentry on Revelations that the time indicators are like book ends. I respect his scholarship, however I wondered why he left out, and literalizes chapter 20-21.

The idea of living and reigning with Christ in Rev. 20:4 in my estimation is living spiritually and reigning over death in life through Him. "And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years". Comparing Romans 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will "reign" in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

The following scripture with the expression, "shall reign" seems to be a future occurrence. 

Revelation 5:10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we "shall reign" on the earth." NKJV

The only thing I can come up with is that its referencing post AD 70, a worldwide preaching work. Or a none stop continuation of same. How do you view that?

I will read your motivating posts once more, hopefully in the morning, thanks again for your research.

Larry

Offline LetGodBeTrue

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #27 on: Sat May 24, 2014 - 10:49:46 »
beforetime, the word in the Greek in both verses is Basileuo (βασιλευω) and it appears in the simple future tense and indicative mood.  This is a very common form of the future.   It is a simple predictive future--"shall reign."  The force is that it will happen without a doubt--especially when spoken by someone with great authority.  The question arises around the when of it.  Those who place the Parousia in our future would take the position that we do not yet reign.  We "shall reign," but we do not yet reign. 

IMHO, it seems that Romans 5 gives us an indication as to the timing of the reigning.  It is presented in juxtaposition to the reign of death.  It seems to me that a good case can be made that the reigning with Christ of those who have received the gift of righteousness would begin when the reign of death ended.  Those who look for the ending of the reign of physical death, of course, must look to the future for Christ to accomplish that (after all, people continue to die!).  But since Christ has already come and put an end to the reign of death (spiritual) and emptied Hades as proof of His victory over it, I agree that those saints began to reign with Him at that time and all those who are His continue to reign with Him (as you have indicated).  Another question arises as to the meaning of ge (γη).  Whether one translates it as "earth" or "land," is it proper to assume that it is a reference to the physical earth on which we live or is it heavenly?  Your thoughts?

Jude
« Last Edit: Sat May 24, 2014 - 10:55:50 by LetGodBeTrue »

Offline beforetime

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #28 on: Sun May 25, 2014 - 01:08:44 »
Hi Jude  Your question .... "Whether one translates it as "earth" or "land," is it proper to assume that it is a reference to the physical earth on which we live or is it heavenly?  Your thoughts?

My best guess is, I think it's both, since Christians ruled prior to and post AD 70 over death through Christ. And the life giving  atonement is carried into an eternal existence in heaven. In other word it is sustained without end even there by the cross.

The born-again believer enters into "the life that belongs to God" prior to, and the consummated after-life..... Ephesians 4:"They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts." Not sure we are on the same page with the question.

Quote
Those who look for the ending of the reign of physical death, of course, must look to the future for Christ to accomplish that (after all, people continue to die!).

I think it was no surprise to God when Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, and that the only death they suffered by doing so was spiritual separation.

Your thoughts!

Larry

Offline LetGodBeTrue

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #29 on: Mon May 26, 2014 - 14:01:55 »
Larry, I agree completely.  John was clear when he described the child of God as one who HAD PASSED from death to life (1 John 3:14).  He and those he addressed were still living at the time so this is a reference to spiritual life from spiritual death. 

It is interesting that John had seen the resurrected Jesus (in the form most futurists believe reflected what we would be like in our resurrection bodies), yet here in his first epistle, John confesses that he and his fellow saints of that day did NOT know what they would be like when resurrected nor what the ascended Jesus would be like until THEY saw Him at His revealing (1 John 3:2).  Since those who had seen with their own eyes the resurrected physical body of Jesus but yet still did not know Him "as He is," how do believers today profess to know what they did not know! 

Offline beforetime

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #30 on: Tue May 27, 2014 - 22:18:22 »
Jude point well taken, "how do believers today profess to know what they [first century believers] did not know"
IMHO the suggestion of someone being raised in same body they are raised with should consider those poor soul's with disadvantage bodies both mentally and physically. Just curious how do  futurist address this?

Offline LetGodBeTrue

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #31 on: Wed May 28, 2014 - 03:32:16 »
Most futurists I know affirm that all bodies will be raised from the dead at the resurrection and all imperfections will be corrected at that time.  All will come forth in perfect genetic form.  It seems to me that to take this position is to profess that infirmities such as Down's Syndrome and Dwarfism are the result of sin and need to be fixed. Many of us have unwittingly accepted the world's concept of beauty.  "Beautiful" people are considered to be perfect. Should we not expect any inherent features that make most of us less "beautiful" to also be "corrected" in the resurrection.  Does it seem fair that a Christian beauty queen or a Hollywood leading man get to spend eternity in their "perfect" bodies while the rest of us have to spend it in less-than-ideal ones? 

For me the biggest issue revolves around bodies that have been consumed by other life forms and become a part of that other life form's body.  A  man eaten by a shark, for example, becomes part of the shark.  When the shark dies, its body decomposes and becomes part of the sea.  Certainly God is able to regather molecules and reassemble anyone's body from hither and yon, but is that what the Scriptures teach?  There are many deceased who cannot come forth from their graves since they are not in graves. 

We should all revisit our concepts of the "grave" and the "dead."  Are they really what we have been taught?

Offline beforetime

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #32 on: Thu May 29, 2014 - 23:56:00 »
In the following article "The Resurrection of the Dead" David Curtis mentions a holding place for the Old faithful. Is he suggesting those in that place are conscience. Or is it just the common grave of the dead.

"If prior to Jesus' messianic work, no one went to Heaven-- where did people go when they died? They went to a holding place of the dead and waited for the atoning work of Christ and the resurrection from the dead.

In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word for where they were prior to the resurrection is Sheol. In the New Testament the Greek word is Hades. What this place amounted to was a waiting area for disembodied spirits." David Curtis

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/1999_curtis_resurrection.html

Larry

Offline geneh_33

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #33 on: Fri May 30, 2014 - 08:26:08 »
Though it is possible that preterism is real I think that the scriptures point to futurism. I'll leave it at that because I have no desire to argue about it. I don't consider it a super important thing to try to get preterists to change their view. The Christian churches throughout the world have enough problems fending off Satan's attacks than to deal with this internal issue now, I think.

Offline LetGodBeTrue

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Re: Preterism waiting or not waiting for the third coming
« Reply #34 on: Fri May 30, 2014 - 09:59:11 »
But it IS extremely important, geneh.  Since Satan WAS crushed under the feet of those very Romans (and their fellow believers) of THAT day, we do not justifiably blame Satan for the wickedness of the world.  Man's heart is inherently wicked.  He himself is responsible for the evil in this world.

Furthermore, most preterists would agree that preterism and its biblical approach goes far beyond the issue of last things.  IF Christ has not yet come, our salvation is not complete (we cannot go to heaven)--see Luke 21 and Romans 13.  IF Christ has not yet come and there is yet to be a Great Tribulation, Christians are prone to accept some idea that the world MUST get worse and that evil MUST flourish and expand.  This has great impact on the influence the Church has on the world around Her.  IF Christ has not yet come and we have not been raised so that physical death has no power over us, we have hope that has been deferred and it is making us sick.  IF Christ has not yet returned, He is not yet with us and we are not with Him. 

But we are already victorious.  We are citizens now of that heavenly country Abraham longed for (Heb. 11).  Death has been conquered in every significant way.  We HAVE eternal life so that we die and yet LIVE, and live and NEVER die.  That is the blessed hope--realized.  And it makes all the difference in how we view ourselves and the world around us.  We are more than conquerors NOW. 

I have been fully resurrected already, so that when the life of my physical seed-body ends, it, like all seeds, dies and that which is unlike that which is planted emerges--a spiritual yet actual and real body fitted for that realm that flesh and blood cannot inherit  (1 Cor. 15).  Again, THAT is the blessed hope realized. 

It is fine if you do not want to debate preterists and I appreciate that you have come here and not thrown the H-word around.  But I believe as time continues to pass that futurism will continue to decline as it continues to add more years to "soon" and "near" and continues to advocate a pessimistic worldview that portrays a defeated Church looking for escape instead of a Church victorious in the realized presence of Her Lord!

 

     
anything