Author Topic: Satan is in the lake of fire  (Read 22842 times)

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thethinker

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Satan is in the lake of fire
« on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 12:18:06 »
TO ALL,

The thousands of years were fulfilled during the old testament period when satan was bound. John's vision in Revelation 20 took him BACK IN TIME. John said that he saw the "ANCIENT serpent" in a great chain and cast into the abyss. John saw the "ANCIENT serpent" cast into the abyss. The proof that satan was bound during the ot period is that there was no satanic activity during the old testament period.

Then John's vision takes him to the "little season" in His present time. The "little season" was that period of time between Christ's first and second comings. This is when satan was loosed. This is the very first time we see satanic activity since the temptation in the garden. There was no satanic activity after the garden incident UNTIL Christ appeared. The absence of ALL satanic activity before Christ proves that satan was bound until Christ's first coming.

Thus the first saints were in the "little season" but in the end of it. We know this to be true because satan's judgment was NEAR TO THEM. Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this world cast out" (John 12:32). Paul said that satan would be "SHORTLY" dashed to pieces under the feet of the first Christians (Rom. 16:20). So satan was dashed to pieces under THEIR feet and subsequently cast into the lake of fire.

So here is the true biblical chronology:

1. Satan bound around the time he was cursed in the garden and throughout the old testament period (no satanic activity).

2. He was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first coming and His second coming in ad70 (all kinds of satanic activity during this time).

3. He was judged in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire (mankind is the sole source of all evil now).

4. We are in the new earth which is the eternal new covenant age (The first heaven and earth were the old covenant, Deuteronomy chaps 30-32. The physical heaven and earth has no prophetic relevance).

thinker

Offline apokalupsis

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #1 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 13:27:47 »
I always enjoy a good stretch after lunch...

thethinker

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #2 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 13:46:53 »
I always enjoy a good stretch after lunch...

That's it?

And the God of peace will crush Satan under YOUR feet SHORTLY.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Romans 16:20


TO ALL,

The first saints saw satan crushed under THEIR feet. Apparently apokalupsis can't handle the Bible's chronology.

thinker

Offline apokalupsis

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #3 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 13:54:48 »
I always enjoy a good stretch after lunch...

That's it?

And the God of peace will crush Satan under YOUR feet SHORTLY.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Romans 16:20


TO ALL,

The first saints saw satan crushed under THEIR feet. Apparently apokalupsis can't handle the Bible's chronology.

thinker

The Bible gives a chronology in Genesis chapter 1. 

Please produce anything similar for yours.

If you can't, then you must really mean apokalupsis can't handle your "interpretation".



and THAT would be much closer to the truth.  lol


Offline Joyfullee

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #4 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 13:59:33 »
TO ALL,

The thousands of years were fulfilled during the old testament period when satan was bound. John's vision in Revelation 20 took him BACK IN TIME. John said that he saw the "ANCIENT serpent" in a great chain and cast into the abyss. John saw the "ANCIENT serpent" cast into the abyss. The proof that satan was bound during the ot period is that there was no satanic activity during the old testament period.

Then John's vision takes him to the "little season" in His present time. The "little season" was that period of time between Christ's first and second comings. This is when satan was loosed. This is the very first time we see satanic activity since the temptation in the garden. There was no satanic activity after the garden incident UNTIL Christ appeared. The absence of ALL satanic activity before Christ proves that satan was bound until Christ's first coming.

Thus the first saints were in the "little season" but in the end of it. We know this to be true because satan's judgment was NEAR TO THEM. Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this world cast out" (John 12:32). Paul said that satan would be "SHORTLY" dashed to pieces under the feet of the first Christians (Rom. 16:20). So satan was dashed to pieces under THEIR feet and subsequently cast into the lake of fire.

So here is the true biblical chronology:

1. Satan bound around the time he was cursed in the garden and throughout the old testament period (no satanic activity).

2. He was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first coming and His second coming in ad70 (all kinds of satanic activity during this time).

3. He was judged in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire (mankind is the sole source of all evil now).

4. We are in the new earth which is the eternal new covenant age (The first heaven and earth were the old covenant, Deuteronomy chaps 30-32. The physical heaven and earth has no prophetic relevance).

thinker

1Ch 21:1   And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Job 1:6   Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7   And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 1:8   And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:9   Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Job 1:12   And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:1   Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 2:2   And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 2:3   And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job 2:4   And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

Job 2:6   And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand; but save his life.

Job 2:7   So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Psa 109:6  Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

Zec 3:1   And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.


Blessings

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #4 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 13:59:33 »



Offline apokalupsis

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #5 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 14:13:09 »
Besides, talking about people to other people, while in front of them is totally rude.  

but to enjoy some stretching...


The absence of ALL satanic activity before Christ proves that satan was bound until Christ's first coming.

You mean besides times like Genesis 3, Job 1-2, I Chronicles 21, or Zechariah 3?

John's vision in Revelation 20 took him BACK IN TIME

I assume then that the judgment of God on all mankind was also something that took place BACK IN TIME.  But what about the destruction of Death?  Death is thrown into the Lake of Fire as well.  Is Death no longer around?

And if Satan walks around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour as Peter says, then how is Satan also in the Lake of Fire?  Or does this verse not apply to us?  And does the verse from Paul who writes that we are not unaware of Satan's schemes, also not apply to us?

So satan was dashed to pieces under THEIR feet and subsequently cast into the lake of fire.

See, the subsequently claim there is actually not in Romans 16:19.

That's in Revelation 20 which you claim is back in time because there is no Satanic activity at all (except that there was actually) and because John called him an ANCIENT serpent?  

Well God is the Ancient of Days but I feel like He's also around today.

In other words, I find those claims to be a ..... stretch.

thethinker

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #6 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 14:28:28 »
TO ALL,

The thousands of years were fulfilled during the old testament period when satan was bound. John's vision in Revelation 20 took him BACK IN TIME. John said that he saw the "ANCIENT serpent" in a great chain and cast into the abyss. John saw the "ANCIENT serpent" cast into the abyss. The proof that satan was bound during the ot period is that there was no satanic activity during the old testament period.

Then John's vision takes him to the "little season" in His present time. The "little season" was that period of time between Christ's first and second comings. This is when satan was loosed. This is the very first time we see satanic activity since the temptation in the garden. There was no satanic activity after the garden incident UNTIL Christ appeared. The absence of ALL satanic activity before Christ proves that satan was bound until Christ's first coming.

Thus the first saints were in the "little season" but in the end of it. We know this to be true because satan's judgment was NEAR TO THEM. Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this world cast out" (John 12:32). Paul said that satan would be "SHORTLY" dashed to pieces under the feet of the first Christians (Rom. 16:20). So satan was dashed to pieces under THEIR feet and subsequently cast into the lake of fire.

So here is the true biblical chronology:

1. Satan bound around the time he was cursed in the garden and throughout the old testament period (no satanic activity).

2. He was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first coming and His second coming in ad70 (all kinds of satanic activity during this time).

3. He was judged in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire (mankind is the sole source of all evil now).

4. We are in the new earth which is the eternal new covenant age (The first heaven and earth were the old covenant, Deuteronomy chaps 30-32. The physical heaven and earth has no prophetic relevance).

thinker

1Ch 21:1   And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Job 1:6   Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7   And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 1:8   And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:9   Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Job 1:12   And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:1   Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 2:2   And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 2:3   And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job 2:4   And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

Job 2:6   And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand; but save his life.

Job 2:7   So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Psa 109:6  Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

Zec 3:1   And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.


Blessings

Joyfullee,

The word "sawtawn" in the Hebrew simply means "accuser." So 1 Chronicles should read, "And an accuser stood up against Israel...." The "accuser" that stood against Israel was God:

"And the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel and He moved David against them...." 2 Samuel 24:1

Job's "accuser" (sawtawn) was a man.

Psalm 109:6 simply means "accuser"

"Set a wicked man over him, And let an accuser stand at his right hand." NKJV

In Zechariah God was the "Adversary" (sawtawn) and the Angel of God (Christ) was Joshua's Advocate:

" 1And he sheweth me Joshua the high priest standing before the messenger of Jehovah, and the Adversary standing at his right hand, to be an adversary to him." Young's Literal Translation

The translations which say "satan" are wrong.

Satan was bound throughout the old testament period. He was loosed for the "little season" between the two comings of Christ. It was not until then that we see satanic activity. He was judged in the first century and cast into the lake of fire.

thinker



« Last Edit: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 14:34:46 by thethinker »

thethinker

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #7 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 14:33:12 »
apokalupsis wrote:
Quote
Besides, talking about people to other people, while in front of them is totally rude.

And belittling remarks in front of others like, "I enjoy a good" stretch after lunch" without offering a thought out reply is rude. But I apologize for my response.

Please see my post to Joyfullee immediately above.

thinker 


Offline Joyfullee

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #8 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 14:39:31 »
Rev. 12:9
Rev. 12:10
Rev. 12:11
Rev. 12:12


From Strong's for:  Satan  (Satanas)  proper masculine noun

Noun = name of a person, place or thing


1) adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to

a) the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ

1) he incites apostasy from God and to sin

2) circumventing men by his wiles

3) the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control

4) by his demons he is able to take possession of men and inflict them with diseases

5) by God's assistance he is overcome

6) on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment

b) a Satan-like man

Lehigh

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #9 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 14:53:02 »
TO ALL,

The thousands of years were fulfilled during the old testament period when satan was bound. John's vision in Revelation 20 took him BACK IN TIME. John said that he saw the "ANCIENT serpent" in a great chain and cast into the abyss. John saw the "ANCIENT serpent" cast into the abyss. The proof that satan was bound during the ot period is that there was no satanic activity during the old testament period.

Then John's vision takes him to the "little season" in His present time. The "little season" was that period of time between Christ's first and second comings. This is when satan was loosed. This is the very first time we see satanic activity since the temptation in the garden. There was no satanic activity after the garden incident UNTIL Christ appeared. The absence of ALL satanic activity before Christ proves that satan was bound until Christ's first coming.

Thus the first saints were in the "little season" but in the end of it. We know this to be true because satan's judgment was NEAR TO THEM. Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this world cast out" (John 12:32). Paul said that satan would be "SHORTLY" dashed to pieces under the feet of the first Christians (Rom. 16:20). So satan was dashed to pieces under THEIR feet and subsequently cast into the lake of fire.

So here is the true biblical chronology:

1. Satan bound around the time he was cursed in the garden and throughout the old testament period (no satanic activity).

2. He was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first coming and His second coming in ad70 (all kinds of satanic activity during this time).

3. He was judged in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire (mankind is the sole source of all evil now).

4. We are in the new earth which is the eternal new covenant age (The first heaven and earth were the old covenant, Deuteronomy chaps 30-32. The physical heaven and earth has no prophetic relevance).

thinker

This analysis of the "thousand years"  makes sense. 

Then it must be that in Revelation 20, it seems God uses the "thousand years" as an expression of "a long time"  TWICE?  - and the "deceiving of the nations" in the first expression of the "thousand years" only applied to Israel.

I say that because the apostles- who didn't take the mark of the beast during the N.T. time- who were promised to sit on thrones judging (not literal judges like in the O.T though) the 12 tribes of Israel- that would have to be a separate expression of God using "a thousand years"  reigning with Christ   - since Satan was loosed for his little season during the N.T. time?

And by "satanic activity" do you mean Satan indwelling in people? What is the difference between Satan being bound and being loosed? 
Is his power only curtailed or defeated by those in Christ- or can Satan not affect anyone anymore in reality?

thethinker

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #10 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 15:02:06 »
Rev. 12:9
Rev. 12:10
Rev. 12:11
Rev. 12:12


From Strong's for:  Satan  (Satanas)  proper masculine noun

Noun = name of a person, place or thing


1) adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to

a) the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ

1) he incites apostasy from God and to sin

2) circumventing men by his wiles

3) the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control

4) by his demons he is able to take possession of men and inflict them with diseases

5) by God's assistance he is overcome

6) on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment

b) a Satan-like man

Strong's first definition of the Hebrew "sawtawn" is "an opponent" (Strong's# 7854). The first definition is the PRIMARY definition.

In 1 Chronicles 21:1 God was Israel's "opponent." We are CLEARLY told this in 2 Samuel 24:1. It explicitly says that it was God who moved David against Israel. There is no old tesatament evidence that satan was active after he was cursed in the garden. John's vision went back to the binding of the "ANCIENT serpent." He was loosed when Christ appeared and judged at Christ's second appearance in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire.

thinker

Offline Joyfullee

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #11 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 15:13:05 »
Rev. 12:9
Rev. 12:10
Rev. 12:11
Rev. 12:12


From Strong's for:  Satan  (Satanas)  proper masculine noun

Noun = name of a person, place or thing


1) adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to

a) the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ

1) he incites apostasy from God and to sin

2) circumventing men by his wiles

3) the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control

4) by his demons he is able to take possession of men and inflict them with diseases

5) by God's assistance he is overcome

6) on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment

b) a Satan-like man

Strong's first definition of the Hebrew "sawtawn" is "an opponent" (Strong's# 7854). The first definition is the PRIMARY definition.

In 1 Chronicles 21:1 God was Israel's "opponent." We are CLEARLY told this in 2 Samuel 24:1. It explicitly says that it was God who moved David against Israel. There is no old tesatament evidence that satan was active after he was cursed in the garden. John's vision went back to the binding of the "ANCIENT serpent." He was loosed when Christ appeared and judged at Christ's second appearance in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire.

thinker

Context my friend, context.  Not pick and choose to fit what one wants to believe.  The leading of the indwelling Holy Spirit should be allowed to lead in the understanding of God's Word.

Blessings

Offline apokalupsis

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #12 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 15:43:59 »
I only belittled your claims thethinker.  ::whistle::

Offline apokalupsis

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #13 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 15:56:14 »
And ummm.....  since the Bible specifically calls Satan our "adversary" in I Peter

and since Satan is always pictured in an adversarial relationship to God and His people in the Old Testament

Then I'm totally fine with taking the PRIMARY definition and saying it's still talking about Satan.

Besides


#1...
You're taking I Chronicles out of context and saying God enticed David to take a census when the Bible says point blank in James that God does not tempt anyone.

#2
Strong's Dictionary also says (cut and paste) "an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good"

#3
You avoided any mention of Job


Huge stretch to explain away these things and then use this as your proof that Satan was bound during the Old Testament.


larry2

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #14 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 15:57:54 »

In 1 Chronicles 21:1 God was Israel's "opponent." We are CLEARLY told this in 2 Samuel 24:1. It explicitly says that it was God who moved David against Israel. There is no old tesatament evidence that satan was active after he was cursed in the garden. John's vision went back to the binding of the "ANCIENT serpent." He was loosed when Christ appeared and judged at Christ's second appearance in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire.

thinker


Why do we continue to have an accuser? Is the lake of fire in high places? Ephesians 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

thethinker

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #15 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 17:38:17 »
I only belittled your claims thethinker.  ::whistle::

I only belittled your non reply reply.

thinker

thethinker

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #16 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 17:42:44 »
And ummm.....  since the Bible specifically calls Satan our "adversary" in I Peter

and since Satan is always pictured in an adversarial relationship to God and His people in the Old Testament

Then I'm totally fine with taking the PRIMARY definition and saying it's still talking about Satan.

Besides


#1...
You're taking I Chronicles out of context and saying God enticed David to take a census when the Bible says point blank in James that God does not tempt anyone.

#2
Strong's Dictionary also says (cut and paste) "an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good"

#3
You avoided any mention of Job


Huge stretch to explain away these things and then use this as your proof that Satan was bound during the Old Testament.



Satan was still loosed when Peter was written but was about to be crushed (Romans 16:20). THEIR accuser was crushed. Consequently, WE do not have an accuser.

Again, Peter was written during the "little season" of satan's loosing when THEIR accuser was loosed and rampant.

thinker

Offline Bitter Sweet

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #17 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 17:45:46 »

Why do we continue to have an accuser?

Because he doesn't have any love in his heart.


thethinker

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #18 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 17:50:00 »

In 1 Chronicles 21:1 God was Israel's "opponent." We are CLEARLY told this in 2 Samuel 24:1. It explicitly says that it was God who moved David against Israel. There is no old tesatament evidence that satan was active after he was cursed in the garden. John's vision went back to the binding of the "ANCIENT serpent." He was loosed when Christ appeared and judged at Christ's second appearance in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire.

thinker


Why do we continue to have an accuser? Is the lake of fire in high places? Ephesians 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The first saints defeated those in the high places. Paul said that satan would be crushed under THEIR feet SHORTLY (Rom. 16:20). The forces of darkness have been removed from the high places and are now in the lake of fire.

Paul said that THEY (the first saints) were seated in the high places doing battle with the forces of darkness in the high places so that WE in the AGES TO COME might have salvation (Eph. 2:6-7; 6:10-13).

thinker

larry2

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #19 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 18:02:09 »

I reckon I just never thought of heaven or eternity being like this. Has our last enemy death been destroyed?

thethinker

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #20 on: Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 18:25:00 »

I reckon I just never thought of heaven or eternity being like this. Has our last enemy death been destroyed?

Who said heaven is like this? Yes THEIR last enemy death has been destroyed. Consequently, WE do not die. WE go straight to be with Jesus in our body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5). THEY did not go straight to be with Jesus. THEY had to sleep in hades (sheol) until Christ abolished death which He did by the time 2 Timothy was written:

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, WHO HAS ABOLISHED DEATH and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

2 Timothy 1:9-10


thinker


Lehigh

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #21 on: Sat Aug 06, 2011 - 21:02:58 »
Quote
But what about the destruction of Death?  Death is thrown into the Lake of Fire as well.

Yes, Satan and the devil are used in a variety of ways in scripture. The devil had the power of death - and the sting of death was sin. The devil incarnate was  represented as sins in our flesh.
The power of death was always in "sin" and not a demonic being.  And the power of sin was the Law. ( see 1 Cor. 15:56)


Offline apokalupsis

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #22 on: Sat Aug 06, 2011 - 21:03:15 »
It's a watered down hope.  Death exists in painful reality all over the world, but the promise that death will be "destroyed" and that "there will be no more" sorrow or pain or death, or the promise that "the old order of things" will pass away... really just means that we will live forever in eternity in Heaven instead of Paradise with Abraham?

That's it?  That's the best God can do?  Really.

And it's simply not necessary because Bible prophecy, taken straightforwardly, is not only a greater hope than this by far, but is perfectly consistent with Scripture and our world.  Why go off in left field like this when the plain sense makes sense?

And what about the Ephesians?  When Paul wrote the church in Rome and told them Satan would be crushed underneath their feet, why not the Ephesians? Why didn't he tell them the same thing? Or any other church?  After all, the entire context of that verse in Romans 16:19 is speaking specifically to one church.  Not to the world-wide church.  




Offline apokalupsis

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #23 on: Sat Aug 06, 2011 - 21:05:38 »

Yes, Satan and the devil are used in a variety of ways in scripture. The devil had the power of death - and the sting of death was sin. The devil incarnate was  represented as sins in our flesh.
The power of death was always in "sin" and not a demonic being.  And the power of sin was the Law. ( see 1 Cor. 15:56)

So how can you believe Satan is literally in hell, but you can't believe that death will literally be destroyed?

OR do you believe in Satan at all?  Many people believe he is simply symbolic of sin or evil or Republicans.

Lehigh

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #24 on: Sat Aug 06, 2011 - 21:23:52 »

Yes, Satan and the devil are used in a variety of ways in scripture. The devil had the power of death - and the sting of death was sin. The devil incarnate was  represented as sins in our flesh.
The power of death was always in "sin" and not a demonic being.  And the power of sin was the Law. ( see 1 Cor. 15:56)

So how can you believe Satan is literally in hell, but you can't believe that death will literally be destroyed?

OR do you believe in Satan at all?  Many people believe he is simply symbolic of sin or evil or Republicans.

Death is destroyed, Eternal life begins now.  But it is still appointed for man to die once. and then his/her judgment or not.  Christ defeated "death" but He still had to die to do it.

Eternal life isn't appreciated this side of eternity because it takes faith, which is the substance of things not seen.

Do I believe "in" Satan? No. We give something much more power when we believe in it.  I don't believe there is a Satanic being.
Satan and the devil are used as a source of evil or temptation in scripture. For instance, the "thorn" that was in Paul's side that was from Satan. Peter and Paul cwere continuously challenged and burdened by the Judaizers- like " Satan masquerading as angels of light."
That merely meant that the Judaizers were false apostles.  See, so Satan IS an adversary and a source of evil.  Sometimes personified too.
The influence of Satan is "to sin."  That's what is left of Satan after being thrown to the lake of fire.
But there's definitely no demonic being called Satan.

Offline Consumingfire

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #25 on: Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 13:10:46 »
TO ALL,

The thousands of years were fulfilled during the old testament period when satan was bound. John's vision in Revelation 20 took him BACK IN TIME. John said that he saw the "ANCIENT serpent" in a great chain and cast into the abyss. John saw the "ANCIENT serpent" cast into the abyss. The proof that satan was bound during the ot period is that there was no satanic activity during the old testament period.

Then John's vision takes him to the "little season" in His present time. The "little season" was that period of time between Christ's first and second comings. This is when satan was loosed. This is the very first time we see satanic activity since the temptation in the garden. There was no satanic activity after the garden incident UNTIL Christ appeared. The absence of ALL satanic activity before Christ proves that satan was bound until Christ's first coming.

Thus the first saints were in the "little season" but in the end of it. We know this to be true because satan's judgment was NEAR TO THEM. Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this world cast out" (John 12:32). Paul said that satan would be "SHORTLY" dashed to pieces under the feet of the first Christians (Rom. 16:20). So satan was dashed to pieces under THEIR feet and subsequently cast into the lake of fire.

So here is the true biblical chronology:

1. Satan bound around the time he was cursed in the garden and throughout the old testament period (no satanic activity).

2. He was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first coming and His second coming in ad70 (all kinds of satanic activity during this time).

3. He was judged in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire (mankind is the sole source of all evil now).

4. We are in the new earth which is the eternal new covenant age (The first heaven and earth were the old covenant, Deuteronomy chaps 30-32. The physical heaven and earth has no prophetic relevance).

thinker

1Ch 21:1   And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Job 1:6   Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7   And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 1:8   And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:9   Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Job 1:12   And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:1   Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 2:2   And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 2:3   And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job 2:4   And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

Job 2:6   And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand; but save his life.

Job 2:7   So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Psa 109:6  Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

Zec 3:1   And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.


Blessings

Joyfullee,

The word "sawtawn" in the Hebrew simply means "accuser." So 1 Chronicles should read, "And an accuser stood up against Israel...." The "accuser" that stood against Israel was God:

"And the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel and He moved David against them...." 2 Samuel 24:1

Job's "accuser" (sawtawn) was a man.

Psalm 109:6 simply means "accuser"

"Set a wicked man over him, And let an accuser stand at his right hand." NKJV

In Zechariah God was the "Adversary" (sawtawn) and the Angel of God (Christ) was Joshua's Advocate:

" 1And he sheweth me Joshua the high priest standing before the messenger of Jehovah, and the Adversary standing at his right hand, to be an adversary to him." Young's Literal Translation

The translations which say "satan" are wrong.

Satan was bound throughout the old testament period. He was loosed for the "little season" between the two comings of Christ. It was not until then that we see satanic activity. He was judged in the first century and cast into the lake of fire.

thinker




This is not the first or last time you have been completely off on a subject. This is, however, one of the most egregious misinterpretations that I have seen.  Satan is referred to as the accuser and used in conjunction with being the accuser several times in the Bible.  God is the completely opposite of the accuser and this is referenced throughout the Bible. 

I think one problem you are having is with going to deep into your anthropomorphic comparisons.  You tend to sometimes go way, way to far with a concept that is should only be used as grounds for fundamental and basic levels of understanding. 

thethinker

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #26 on: Fri Aug 12, 2011 - 21:24:41 »
I see the board is running again so I'll be back.

thinker

Offline apokalupsis

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #27 on: Fri Aug 12, 2011 - 21:42:45 »

Yes, Satan and the devil are used in a variety of ways in scripture. The devil had the power of death - and the sting of death was sin. The devil incarnate was  represented as sins in our flesh.
The power of death was always in "sin" and not a demonic being.  And the power of sin was the Law. ( see 1 Cor. 15:56)

So how can you believe Satan is literally in hell, but you can't believe that death will literally be destroyed?

OR do you believe in Satan at all?  Many people believe he is simply symbolic of sin or evil or Republicans.

Death is destroyed, Eternal life begins now.  But it is still appointed for man to die once. and then his/her judgment or not.  Christ defeated "death" but He still had to die to do it.

Eternal life isn't appreciated this side of eternity because it takes faith, which is the substance of things not seen.

Do I believe "in" Satan? No. We give something much more power when we believe in it.  I don't believe there is a Satanic being.
Satan and the devil are used as a source of evil or temptation in scripture. For instance, the "thorn" that was in Paul's side that was from Satan. Peter and Paul cwere continuously challenged and burdened by the Judaizers- like " Satan masquerading as angels of light."
That merely meant that the Judaizers were false apostles.  See, so Satan IS an adversary and a source of evil.  Sometimes personified too.
The influence of Satan is "to sin."  That's what is left of Satan after being thrown to the lake of fire.
But there's definitely no demonic being called Satan.

Figured.  Look, you have to do so many gymnastics of interpretation with passages such as Christ's explanation of Satan (which is different than your own), Christ's temptation, Peter's description of Satan, Paul's references to Satan, Adam and Eve's confrontation with Satan, the account of Satan in the book of Job, etc....

That in the end, the Bible cannot be taken seriously.  Any passage can be twisted to mean something else.  Seeking some hidden meaning in the text may be an attempt to appear more enlightened, but it glorifies man and man's interpretation, while transforming God into any sort of God we desire. 

How do we know God even exists?  Perhaps he is just an expression of good, not a literal being.

this is merely a form of godliness, devoid of power

Lehigh

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #28 on: Sat Aug 13, 2011 - 11:11:00 »
Figured also that learning is only for the open minded!
"Peter's description of Satan?"  Right there you either do not recognize or just deny anyway that "they" were in an "evil age," and say no, Peter meant in our modern times! And "twisting" scripture is for those who think God can't relate time to man and must elasticize "soon" or "shortly" - even though God's time statements are clear. 
If the terms "Satan"and the "devil" are all used in scripture as the same evil incarnate being - then why did Christ call Peter "Satan?" I know why, but I do not have the time to explain all the different ways Satan and the devil are used in scripture.

So, no way, the end of that "evil age" came.  (Gal.1:4; Eph.6:12)
We are in that "age to come."
That age  (this age now) is the "kingdom of God."  And it never ends. (Isa.9:7;Dan.2:35;2:44;Eph.3:21)

Offline apokalupsis

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #29 on: Sun Aug 14, 2011 - 08:59:38 »
Peter's description of Satan was true in his time and in our time.  Why would it not be?  

Did not Peter write during a period of persecution?  But in the last 100 years more Christians have been killed for their faith than the rest of history combined.   Which time was more evil?  If I'm just going by dead Christians, I'd have to say modern times.  So then this must be an evil time as well.  Or is there another measure besides persecution that makes that time more evil?  Idolatry? Rebellion? Immorality?  Don't these things fit today even more?

Peter himself explained "soon" and "shortly" from God's point of view in II Peter 3 so there is no need for me to do anything except take Peter at his word regarding those terms.

And it's the same thing I do with what Peter said about Satan.  Anything else would be inconsistent and poor exegesis.


« Last Edit: Sun Aug 14, 2011 - 09:57:22 by apokalupsis »

Lehigh

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #30 on: Sun Aug 14, 2011 - 12:00:26 »
Quote
And it's the same thing I do with what Peter said about Satan.  Anything else would be inconsistent and poor exegesis.
::giggle:: On the grounds of the hermeneutic of audience relevance and true exegesis of various parallel passages concerning "that evil age" of which Peter and the other apostles referred to is what is consistent with a proper interpretation.

Offline apokalupsis

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #31 on: Sun Aug 14, 2011 - 16:58:48 »
::giggle:: On the grounds of the hermeneutic of audience relevance and true exegesis of various parallel passages concerning "that evil age" of which Peter and the other apostles referred to is what is consistent with a proper interpretation.

I've already challenged your presuppositions of Peter's audience compared with our own.  What is the basis to assume Peter's day was more evil than our own?  What is the basis to assume Peter's age is different than our own in the dispensation of God's relationship to mankind?  There is no difference.  This is not a different age.  What Peter said applies to us, regardless of how badly we'd like to water down the Gospel and do away with ideas like Satan, sin, homosexuality as a sin, judgment, a literal second coming, et al.  

I remain utterly convinced Satan is a being, who does seek to destroy.  Paul refers to his schemes.  Jesus refers to his lies and also speaks directly to him a few times if you remember.  The book of Job describes Satan speaking with God.

You haven't answered any of those cases.  Only Peter's reference and here you mention parallel passages concerning "that evil age?"

"Evil Age" appears once in the Bible using the four versions I have on my computer here, so what parallel passage are you referring to?  It should take at least two.

Galatians 1:4 says Jesus gave Himself for our sins to rescue us from this "evil age."

If we are no longer in THAT evil age, then does Jesus need to sacrifice Himself again for our age?

If it is as I suspect, the interpretation that proposes they lived in an "evil age" and we living in the "age to come" then for me, that requires too much ignoring of any factual details contained in passages that describe the age to come AND the ignoring of too many details of clear and literal fulfillment of prophecy both past and present.  

In other words, I have to say that the Bible does not mean what it says to a wide degree, when the Bible is literally correct in what it says regardless!  

Which is why I say this is wholly unnecessary.  Why not believe it?  It fits much easier with the audience both past a present and is a hermeneutic a piece of cake.

After all, it's accurate.  What's the basis for changing it?



Lehigh

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #32 on: Sun Aug 14, 2011 - 18:43:22 »

Quote
Galatians 1:4 says Jesus gave Himself for our sins to rescue us from this "evil age."

If we are no longer in THAT evil age, then does Jesus need to sacrifice Himself again for our age?

The point you miss is that the emphasis is on "this present evil age"  Paul wrote that in the 50's AD.
Again, the emphasis is on the time that was a "wicked generation" or "evil age"

We all know that Christ died in that age "when the fullness of time had come"  

We could say that Christ died for our sins to rescue us from the world  too because that is what salvation is, but in Galatians, Paul is specifically speaking about the time of end of the age of Judaism and the Law.
Why you deny yourself the reality of living in the "world to come" I have no idea.
But we are. It's a fact. "world" is interchangeable with "age." This is the new heavens and earth that both O.T. and N.T. wrote about. We are the temple of God. The kingdom is spiritual. Your either "where righteousness dwells" or you aren't. And it is not a place, but a state of being.

The Resurrection for the living was spiritual. The death that was removed was sin death or spiritual death from the Law.

Of course Peter's and Paul's ,etc. days were more evil than we have now. Satan was loosed and even inhabited people spiritually. He was the great deceiver and even fooled Israel into worshiping the beast.(Caesar)  But Jesus crushed him in that "age" which Paul said was
"soon" in Romans 16:20.  
You are perfectly welcome to believe Satan is a being with any real power to destroy.

I choose to believe Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and He did not fail.

Yes, the Son made me free indeed.  No devil chases after me nor do any evil spirits exist anymore.
God is the judge of the world, and that included the judgment of the adversary or the "evil one", the devil.

It's over.  Praise God!


 


Offline apokalupsis

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #33 on: Mon Aug 15, 2011 - 17:34:33 »
The point you miss is that the emphasis is on "this present evil age" Paul wrote that in the 50's AD.
Again, the emphasis is on the time that was a "wicked generation" or "evil age"

You have to twist the logic of the verse too much to get there.

Galatians 1:4
who gave Himself for our sins to rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.


We cannot say this passage is pointing out the "time," and argue that the time applies only until 70 AD, without ALSO applying "gave Himself for our sins" to the time until 70 AD.

That's like saying, "gave Himself for our sins to rescue us FROM the recession of 2008, according to the will of our God and Father." 

It begs the question about saving us from any future recessions or times.  The point preterism tries to make with that verse simply isn't there IMO.

We all know that Christ died in that age "when the fullness of time had come"  We could say that Christ died for our sins to rescue us from the world  too because that is what salvation is, but in Galatians, Paul is specifically speaking about the time of end of the age of Judaism and the Law.

Galatians 1:4 says nothing about "the time of the age of Judaism and the Law."   The "present evil age" was not Judaism and the Law but our world. We were not bound to the Law until 70 AD, we were freed from the Law by cross of Christ, 30 years before 70 AD.  When Paul spoke in Galatians, Christ had ALREADY rescued us from the Law, thus it could not be PRESENT for the Christian.  It was a done deal, already, unrelated to the Romans sacking Jerusalem.

ALREADY rescued from the Law:
Gal 3:24  The law, then, was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25  But since that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

Why you deny yourself the reality of living in the "world to come" I have no idea.
I just did a funeral today Lehigh.  If this is the world to come, I'm sorely disappointed in it. 

"world" is interchangeable with "age."

That would be convenient wouldn't it?

This is the new heavens and earth that both O.T. and N.T. wrote about. We are the temple of God. The kingdom is spiritual. Your either "where righteousness dwells" or you aren't. And it is not a place, but a state of being.

Good analogies, but to say this NEGATES the literal meaning is contradicted by Scripture.  Look at two verses in particular, in the first Jesus said, "in my Father's house are many dwelling places, if it were not so I would have told you.  I GO to prepare a place for you.  (He literally WENT) And if I GO to prepare a place for you, I will come back and receive you to myself, that where I am, there you may BE also.

In the second Scripture, an angel explained "This same Jesus has been taken from you into heaven (very literally) will come IN THE SAME WAY you've seen Him going into heaven."

Either Jesus is confused and the angels are lying, or Jesus went and prepared a place other than here, and someday he will return literally and take us to be there.

This did not happen in 70 AD.

Of course Peter's and Paul's ,etc. days were more evil than we have now.  Satan was loosed and even inhabited people spiritually. He was the great deceiver and even fooled Israel into worshiping the beast.(Caesar)  But Jesus crushed him in that "age" which Paul said was
"soon" in Romans 16:20. 

So you believe Satan used to be a real being but isn't anymore?  Interesting.

Again, what facts do you have that show Satan inhabited people spiritually but doesn't today?  What part of this age makes you believe that Satan is less active on this earth?  Since more Christians have been killed in the last century than the rest of history combined, is that evidence that Satan is LESS active on this earth?  Since more Jews have been killed in the last century than all those killed in 70 AD, does that mean Satan is LESS active on this earth?

I don't see it.

"If only in this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied above all men."  I think that line is still true.

Finally...

How can we believe the physical burning and destruction of walls and mortar and wood, coupled with the killing of Jewish men, women and children with swords and spears, equals the beginning of "the coming age?"

Wasn't the "coming age" supposed to be one of victory?  Wasn't that when God would be king over all the earth after defeating His enemies? 

Because if we are going to say this is merely spiritual....

Then how come we tie the spiritual event directly to a physical assault on innocent people in 70 AD?  Shouldn't it be tied to some spiritual event instead?




Lehigh

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #34 on: Mon Aug 15, 2011 - 21:28:23 »
Quote
You have to twist the logic of the verse too much to get there.

Galatians 1:4
who gave Himself for our sins to rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.

We cannot say this passage is pointing out the "time," and argue that the time applies only until 70 AD, without ALSO applying "gave Himself for our sins" to the time until 70 AD.

That's like saying, "gave Himself for our sins to rescue us FROM the recession of 2008, according to the will of our God and Father."

Actually, the logic of "this present age" should be obvious to who Paul is addressing. The "when" is what you can't seem to find logical. If Paul was addressing us today, he might say "He gave Himself for our sins so that we in this age, might have eternal life."
But Paul specifically mentions "this present age" - which is the focus of this thread anyway.
Quote
It begs the question about saving us from any future recessions or times.  The point preterism tries to make with that verse simply isn't there IMO.
I already addressed what Paul might say about Christ's sacrifice. And I don't need any labels. It's the word of God. Paul was speaking about his "present"  not ours.
Even in Eph. 6:12, Paul reiterates "this evil age" in the KJV.
Quote
When Paul spoke in Galatians, Christ had ALREADY rescued us from the Law, thus it could not be PRESENT for the Christian.  It was a done deal, already, unrelated to the Romans sacking Jerusalem.
You are very mistaken. The Law did not pass at the cross. You should listen more closely to Jesus' words, because He makes clear that "heaven and earth" which is symbolic for the temple and the old covenant with Israel, would pass before any of the Law would.
Matthew 5:18 where Jesus said “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled

 

     
anything