Author Topic: Satan is in the lake of fire  (Read 21763 times)

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Offline fenton

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #165 on: January 25, 2012, 04:47:59 PM »
fenton said:
Quote
Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them
a man that was in heaven then he descended to earth to do what he wanted???  and you guys think us pentacostals are out there!  .

Where does it say that the event was taking place in heaven? The sons of God were the godly line of Seth. The Psalms repeatedly say that the people of God are "before His presence" when they worship. Therefore, we are "before the Lord" when we worship though we are not in heaven.

John saw the ANCIENT SERPENT be thrown into the abyss in chains. Peter and Jude say that the evil angels had been chained in Tarturus. They were loosed when Christ appeared.

thinker





well I guess its how you interpret sons of God - --  i take it as angels or heavenly beings  -so if it were they, then where else would they meet.

thethinker

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #166 on: January 25, 2012, 05:32:23 PM »
fenton said:
Quote
Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them
a man that was in heaven then he descended to earth to do what he wanted???  and you guys think us pentacostals are out there!  .

Where does it say that the event was taking place in heaven? The sons of God were the godly line of Seth. The Psalms repeatedly say that the people of God are "before His presence" when they worship. Therefore, we are "before the Lord" when we worship though we are not in heaven.

John saw the ANCIENT SERPENT be thrown into the abyss in chains. Peter and Jude say that the evil angels had been chained in Tarturus. They were loosed when Christ appeared.

thinker





well I guess its how you interpret sons of God - --  i take it as angels or heavenly beings  -so if it were they, then where else would they meet.


Psalm 2:7 and Hebrews 1:5 say that God never called an angel a son.

"To which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my son."'

The sons of God were the godly line of Seth. Only men are sons of God. Angels are ministering spirits to His sons.

thinker

Offline fenton

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #167 on: January 25, 2012, 05:56:41 PM »
fenton said:
Quote
Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them
a man that was in heaven then he descended to earth to do what he wanted???  and you guys think us pentacostals are out there!  .

Where does it say that the event was taking place in heaven? The sons of God were the godly line of Seth. The Psalms repeatedly say that the people of God are "before His presence" when they worship. Therefore, we are "before the Lord" when we worship though we are not in heaven.

John saw the ANCIENT SERPENT be thrown into the abyss in chains. Peter and Jude say that the evil angels had been chained in Tarturus. They were loosed when Christ appeared.

thinker





well I guess its how you interpret sons of God - --  i take it as angels or heavenly beings  -so if it were they, then where else would they meet.


Psalm 2:7 and Hebrews 1:5 say that God never called an angel a son.

"To which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my son."'

The sons of God were the godly line of Seth. Only men are sons of God. Angels are ministering spirits to His sons.

thinker

i guess i need to be careful what i read

(MSG)  One day when the angels came to report to GOD, Satan, who was the Designated Accuser, came along with them.

(ISV)  One day, divine beings presented themselves to the LORD, and Satan accompanied them.

(GNB)  When the day came for the heavenly beings to appear before the LORD, Satan was there among them.

(ERV)  Then the day came for the angels to meet with the LORD. Even Satan was there with them.

(CEV)  One day, when the angels had gathered around the LORD, and Satan was there with them,

thethinker

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #168 on: January 25, 2012, 06:17:05 PM »
fenton said:
Quote
Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them
a man that was in heaven then he descended to earth to do what he wanted???  and you guys think us pentacostals are out there!  .

Where does it say that the event was taking place in heaven? The sons of God were the godly line of Seth. The Psalms repeatedly say that the people of God are "before His presence" when they worship. Therefore, we are "before the Lord" when we worship though we are not in heaven.

John saw the ANCIENT SERPENT be thrown into the abyss in chains. Peter and Jude say that the evil angels had been chained in Tarturus. They were loosed when Christ appeared.

thinker





well I guess its how you interpret sons of God - --  i take it as angels or heavenly beings  -so if it were they, then where else would they meet.


Psalm 2:7 and Hebrews 1:5 say that God never called an angel a son.

"To which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my son."'

The sons of God were the godly line of Seth. Only men are sons of God. Angels are ministering spirits to His sons.

thinker

i guess i need to be careful what i read

(MSG)  One day when the angels came to report to GOD, Satan, who was the Designated Accuser, came along with them.

(ISV)  One day, divine beings presented themselves to the LORD, and Satan accompanied them.

(GNB)  When the day came for the heavenly beings to appear before the LORD, Satan was there among them.

(ERV)  Then the day came for the angels to meet with the LORD. Even Satan was there with them.

(CEV)  One day, when the angels had gathered around the LORD, and Satan was there with them,

Pagan translations! God NEVER called an angel His son (Ps. 2:7; Heb. 1:5). The sons of God married women which angels cannot do (Gen. 6:3 with Matthew 22:30).

thinker

Offline fenton

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #169 on: January 25, 2012, 07:30:24 PM »
Job 1:6


There was a day when the sons of God - All the versions, and indeed all the critics, are puzzled with the phrase sons of God; בני האלהים  beney haelohim, literally, sons of the God, or sons of the gods. The Vulgate has simply filii dei, sons of God. The Septuagint, οἱ αγγελοι του θεου, the angels of God. The Chaldee, כתי מלאכיא  kittey malachaiya, troops of angels. The Syriac retains the Hebrew words and letters, only leaving out the demonstrative ה  he in the word האלהים  haelohim, thus, (Syriac) baney Elohim. The Arabic nearly copies the Hebrew also, (Arabic) banoa Iloheem; to which, if we give not the literal translation of the Hebrew, we may give what translation we please. Coverdale (1535) translates it, servauntes of God. The Targum supposes that this assembly took place on the day of the great atonement, which occurred once each year. And there was a day of judgment in the beginning of the year; and the troops of angels came, that they might stand in judgment before the Lord. But what are we to make of this whole account? Expositions are endless. That of Mr. Peters appears to me to be at once the most simple and the most judicious: “The Scripture speaks of God after the manner of men, for there is a necessity of condescending to our capacities, and of suiting the revelation to our apprehension. As kings, therefore, transact their most important affairs in a solemn council or assembly, so God is pleased to represent himself as having his council likewise; and as passing the decrees of his providence in an assembly of his holy angels. We have here, in the case of Job, the same grand assembly held, as was before in that of Ahab, 1 Kings 22:6-23; the same host of heaven, called here the sons of God, presenting themselves before Jehovah, as in the vision of Micaiah they are said to stand on his right hand and on his left. A wicked spirit appearing among them, here called Satan or the adversary, and there a lying spirit; both bent on mischief, and ready to do all the hurt they were permitted to do; for both were under the control of his power. The imagery is just the same; and the only difference is in the manner of the relation. That mentioned above, Micaiah, as a prophet, and in the actual exercise of his prophetic office, delivers, as he received it, in a vision. “I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the Host of Heaven standing by him, on his right hand and on his left, and there came forth a Lying Spirit, and stood Before the Lord, and said,

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #169 on: January 25, 2012, 07:30:24 PM »



Offline asachild

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #170 on: January 25, 2012, 07:44:07 PM »
Quote
Job's adversary was not the devil but a HUMAN accuser. The Hebrew "sawtawn" simply means "adversary. Job's accuser was a MAN. See replies 6 and ff on page 1 to this thread.

What human man could have sent fire and burned up sheep and servants or sent a great wind from across the wilderness to blow down a dwelling and kill all but one inside?

Regards,
AsAChild

Offline n2thelight

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #171 on: January 25, 2012, 08:24:40 PM »
fenton said:
Quote
Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them
a man that was in heaven then he descended to earth to do what he wanted???  and you guys think us pentacostals are out there!  .

Where does it say that the event was taking place in heaven? The sons of God were the godly line of Seth. The Psalms repeatedly say that the people of God are "before His presence" when they worship. Therefore, we are "before the Lord" when we worship though we are not in heaven.

John saw the ANCIENT SERPENT be thrown into the abyss in chains. Peter and Jude say that the evil angels had been chained in Tarturus. They were loosed when Christ appeared.

thinker





well I guess its how you interpret sons of God - --  i take it as angels or heavenly beings  -so if it were they, then where else would they meet.


Psalm 2:7 and Hebrews 1:5 say that God never called an angel a son.

"To which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my son."'

The sons of God were the godly line of Seth. Only men are sons of God. Angels are ministering spirits to His sons.

thinker

"THE SONS OF GOD" IN GEN. 6:2, 4.

It is only by the Divine specific act of creation that any created being can be called "a son of God".  For that which is "born of the flesh is flesh".  God is spirit, and that which is "born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6).  Hence Adam is called a "son of God" in Luke 3:38.  Those "in Christ" having "the new nature" which is by the direct creation of God (2Cor. 5:17.  Eph. 2:10) can be, and are called "sons of God" (John 1:13.  Rom. 8:14, 15.  1John 3:1). (*1)

This is why angels are called "sons of God" in every other place where the expression is used in the Old Testament.  Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7.  Ps. 29:1; 89:6.  Dan. 3:25 (no art.). (*2)  We have no authority or right to take the expression in Gen. 6:2, 4 in any other sense.  Moreover, in Gen. 6:2 the Sept. renders it "angels".

Angels are called "spirits" (Ps. 104:4.  Heb. 1:7, 14), for spirits are created by God.

That there was a fall of the angels is certain from Jude 6.

The nature of their fall is clearly stated in the same verse.  They left their own oijkhthvrion (oiketerion).  This word occurs only in 2Cor. 5:2 and Jude 6, where it is used of the spiritual (or resurrection) body.

The nature of their sin is stated to be "in like manner" to that of the subsequent sins of Sodom and Gomorrha, Jude 7.

The time of their fall is given as having taken place "in the days of Noah" (1Pet. 3:20.  2Pet. 2:7), though there may have been a prior fall which caused the end of "the world that then was" (Gen. 1:1, 2.  2Pet. 3:6).

For this sin they are "reserved unto judgment", 2Pet. 2:4, and are "in prison", 1Pet. 3:19.

Their progeny, called Nephilim (translated "giants"), were monsters of iniquity; and, being superhuman in size and character, had to be destroyed (see Ap. 25).  This was the one and only object of the Flood.

Only Noah and his family had preserved their pedigree pure from Adam (Gen. 6:9, see note).  All the rest had become "corrupt" (shachath) destroyed [as Adamites].  the only remedy was to destroy it (de facto), as it had become destroyed (de jure).  (It is the same word in v. 17 as in vv. 11, 12.)  See further under Ap. 25 on the Nephilim.

This irruption of fallen angels was Satan's first attempt to prevent the coming of the Seed of the woman foretold in gen. 3:15.  If this could be accomplished, God's Word would have failed, and his own doom would be averted.

As soon as it was made known that the Seed of the woman was to come through ABRAHAM, there must have been another irruption, as recorded in Gen. 6:4, "and also after that" (i.e. after the days of Noah, more than 500 years after the first irruption).  The aim of the enemy was to occupy Canaan in advance of Abraham, and so to contest its occupation by his seed.  For, when Abraham entered Canaan, we read (Gen. 12:6) "the Canaanite was then (i.e. already) in the land."

In the same chapter (Gen. 12:10-20) we see Satan's next attempt to interfere with Abraham's seed, and frustrate the purpose of God that it should be in "Isaac".  This attempt was repeated in 20:1-18.

This great conflict may be seen throughout the Bible, and it forms a great and important subject of Biblical study.  In each case the human instrument had his own personal interest to serve, while Satan had his own great object in view.  Hence God had, in each case, to interfere and avert the evil and the danger, of which his servants and people were wholly ignorant.  The following assaults of the great Enemy stand out prominently :--

The destruction of the chosen family by famine, Gen. 50:20.

The destruction of the male line in Israel, Ex. 1:10, 15, &c.  Cp. Ex. 2:5.  Heb. 11:23.

The destruction of the whole nation in Pharaoh's pursuit, Ex. 14.

After David's line was singled out (2Sam. 7), that was the next selected for assault.  Satan's first assault was in the union of Jehoram and Athaliah by Jehoshaphat, notwithstanding 2Chron. 17:1.  Jehoram killed off all his brothers (2Chron. 21:4).

The Arabians slew all his children, except Ahaziah (2Chron. 21:17; 22:1).

When Ahaziah died, Athaliah killed "all the seed royal" (2Chron. 22:10).  the babe Joash alone was rescued; and, for six years, the faithfulness of Jehovah's word was at stake (2Chron. 23:3).

Hezekiah was childless, when a double assault was made by the King of Assyria and the King of Terrors (Isa. 36:1; 38:1).  God's faithfulness was appealed to and relied on (Ps. 136).

In Captivity, Haman was used to attempt the destruction of the whole nation (Est. 3:6, 12, 13.  Cp. 6:1).

Joseph's fear was worked on (Matt. 1:18-20).  Notwithstanding the fact that he was "a just man", and kept the Law, he did not wish to have Mary stoned to death (Deut. 24:1); hence Joseph determined to divorce her.  But God intervened :  "Fear not".

Herod sought the young Child's life (Matt. 2).

At the Temptation, "Cast Thyself down" was Satan's temptation.

At Nazareth, again (Luke 4), there was another attempt to cast Him down and destroy Him.

The two storms on the Lake were other attempts.

At length the cross was reached, and the sepulcher closed; the watch set; and the stone sealed.  But "God raised Him from the dead."  And now, like another Joash, He is seated and expecting (Heb. 10:12, 13), hidden in the house of God on high; and the members of "the one body" are hidden there "in Him" (Col. 3:1-3), like another Jehoshaba; and going forth to witness of His coming, like another Jehoiada (2Chron. 23:3).

The irruption of "the fallen angels" ("sons of God") was the first attempt; and was directed against the whole human race.

When Abraham was called, then he and his seed were attacked.

When David was enthroned, then the royal line were attacked.

And when "the Seed of the woman" Himself came, then the storm burst upon Him.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(*1)  The word "offspring" in Acts 17:28 is quite different.  It is gevnos (genos), which means merely kin or kind, our genus as being originated by God.
(*2)  In Hos. 1:10, it is not beni-ha-Elohim, as here, but beni-el-chai.


thethinker

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #172 on: January 26, 2012, 10:38:07 AM »
Quote
Job's adversary was not the devil but a HUMAN accuser. The Hebrew "sawtawn" simply means "adversary. Job's accuser was a MAN. See replies 6 and ff on page 1 to this thread.


What human man could have sent fire and burned up sheep and servants or sent a great wind from across the wilderness to blow down a dwelling and kill all but one inside?

Regards,
AsAChild


Please see "sons of God = men or angels" thread with my replies on pages 5-6. I bumped it for you in the Theology Forum.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/'sons-of-god'-men-or-angels/60/

See also Leupold's commmentary on Genesis 6 on the sons of God and how their identification with angels is pagan in origin

http://www.abiblecommentary.com/leuoldscommentaryongenesis.pdf

God NEVER called an angel "My son" (Heb. 1:6). They are the servants of God's sons (Heb. 1:13-14).

thinker

EdwardGoodie

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #173 on: January 26, 2012, 11:22:08 AM »
It is interesting, this "sons of God" thing...

thethinker says it refers to the godly line of Seth.  I have no problem with that although I would probably call it Seth's covenant line with God (perhaps identical in meaning).

I also believe that this reasoning is a good indication that the Book of Job PREDATES the flood.  The phrase "sons of God" is not used again until the NT.

Gen_6:2  That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Gen_6:4  There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Job_1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job_2:1  Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job_38:7  When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?



Joh_1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom_8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom_8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Php_2:15  That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jn_3:1  Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn_3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Offline asachild

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #174 on: January 26, 2012, 11:51:34 AM »
Quote
thinker
Please see "sons of God = men or angels" thread with my replies on pages 5-6. I bumped it for you in the Theology Forum.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/'sons-of-god'-men-or-angels/60/

See also Leupold's commmentary on Genesis 6 on the sons of God and how their identification with angels is pagan in origin

http://www.abiblecommentary.com/leuoldscommentaryongenesis.pdf

God NEVER called an angel "My son" (Heb. 1:6). They are the servants of God's sons (Heb. 1:13-14).


and

Quote
Quote thinker:
Job's adversary was not the devil but a HUMAN accuser. The Hebrew "sawtawn" simply means "adversary. Job's accuser was a MAN. See replies 6 and ff on page 1 to this thread.


My question still remains:

What human man could have sent fire and burned up sheep and servants or sent a great wind from across the wilderness to blow down a dwelling and kill all but one inside?

Regards,
AsAChild

Offline fenton

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #175 on: January 26, 2012, 09:03:14 PM »
1Jn 2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

thethinker

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #176 on: January 27, 2012, 11:52:49 AM »
Quote
What human man could have sent fire and burned up sheep and servants or sent a great wind from across the wilderness to blow down a dwelling and kill all but one inside?

What human man could change the rod into a serpent, turn the river into blood, smite all Egypt's firstborn and part the red sea?

Satan had no such power EVER to do the things that Job's adversary did. Only a man whom God permitted and empowered could have done those things to Job.

Angels are NOT mentioned at all in the scene.

BTW, Job's adversary whether satan or a man is NOT included in the class designated as "the sons of God."

thinker


thethinker

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #177 on: January 27, 2012, 12:02:03 PM »
1Jn 2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Exactly! And this includes translators. That we have so many translations and different readings just goes to show how unreliable men are when they handle the word of God.

God called Israel "My son" and he called David, Solomon and Jesus "My son." He said that the rulers of Israel were His sons and that we are His sons by adoption.

But God NEVER spoke to an angel saying "My son" and He NEVER spoke about an angel as a son.

Please show where God ever addressed an angel saying "My son" or where He ever spoke about an angel as His son. Is this too much to ask?


Hebrews 1:6:

"To which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my son'"?

thinker

Offline fenton

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #178 on: January 27, 2012, 12:50:42 PM »
no i can not show YOU where He ever said that in the KJV, however their are other translation that do say it. but you call them pagan. my commentaries that i have state that more then likely they are angles, but i will just ignore them.    So, cha-ching you win.

 ::cheerleader::

thethinker

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Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
« Reply #179 on: January 27, 2012, 04:51:39 PM »
no i can not show YOU where He ever said that in the KJV, however their are other translation that do say it. but you call them pagan. my commentaries that i have state that more then likely they are angles, but i will just ignore them.    So, cha-ching you win.

 ::cheerleader::

You do not understand my point. There are no narratives in any translation of the scripture where God is speaking to an angel saying, "You are my son."

Angels were created to serve God's sons (Hebrews 1:14). They are NOT sons themselves. They came to serve Jesus when He agonized in the garden. They served Jesus again when He arse from the dead. An angel came and served Peter when he was in prison.

Hebrews says that Christ died for sons and that angels help carry out salvation for sons (1:14-2:10). If angels were sons, then Christ died for them too which He did not.

Again the belief that angels are sons of God is pagan in origin and many of our "translations" have been influenced by it.

thinker