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Christian Interests => End Times Forum => Preterist Forum => Topic started by: thethinker on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 12:18:06

Title: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 12:18:06
TO ALL,

The thousands of years were fulfilled during the old testament period when satan was bound. John's vision in Revelation 20 took him BACK IN TIME. John said that he saw the "ANCIENT serpent" in a great chain and cast into the abyss. John saw the "ANCIENT serpent" cast into the abyss. The proof that satan was bound during the ot period is that there was no satanic activity during the old testament period.

Then John's vision takes him to the "little season" in His present time. The "little season" was that period of time between Christ's first and second comings. This is when satan was loosed. This is the very first time we see satanic activity since the temptation in the garden. There was no satanic activity after the garden incident UNTIL Christ appeared. The absence of ALL satanic activity before Christ proves that satan was bound until Christ's first coming.

Thus the first saints were in the "little season" but in the end of it. We know this to be true because satan's judgment was NEAR TO THEM. Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this world cast out" (John 12:32). Paul said that satan would be "SHORTLY" dashed to pieces under the feet of the first Christians (Rom. 16:20). So satan was dashed to pieces under THEIR feet and subsequently cast into the lake of fire.

So here is the true biblical chronology:

1. Satan bound around the time he was cursed in the garden and throughout the old testament period (no satanic activity).

2. He was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first coming and His second coming in ad70 (all kinds of satanic activity during this time).

3. He was judged in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire (mankind is the sole source of all evil now).

4. We are in the new earth which is the eternal new covenant age (The first heaven and earth were the old covenant, Deuteronomy chaps 30-32. The physical heaven and earth has no prophetic relevance).

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: apokalupsis on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 13:27:47
I always enjoy a good stretch after lunch...
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 13:46:53
I always enjoy a good stretch after lunch...

That's it?

And the God of peace will crush Satan under YOUR feet SHORTLY.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Romans 16:20

TO ALL,

The first saints saw satan crushed under THEIR feet. Apparently apokalupsis can't handle the Bible's chronology.

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: apokalupsis on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 13:54:48
I always enjoy a good stretch after lunch...

That's it?

And the God of peace will crush Satan under YOUR feet SHORTLY.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Romans 16:20

TO ALL,

The first saints saw satan crushed under THEIR feet. Apparently apokalupsis can't handle the Bible's chronology.

thinker

The Bible gives a chronology in Genesis chapter 1. 

Please produce anything similar for yours.

If you can't, then you must really mean apokalupsis can't handle your "interpretation".



and THAT would be much closer to the truth.  lol

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Joyfullee on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 13:59:33
TO ALL,

The thousands of years were fulfilled during the old testament period when satan was bound. John's vision in Revelation 20 took him BACK IN TIME. John said that he saw the "ANCIENT serpent" in a great chain and cast into the abyss. John saw the "ANCIENT serpent" cast into the abyss. The proof that satan was bound during the ot period is that there was no satanic activity during the old testament period.

Then John's vision takes him to the "little season" in His present time. The "little season" was that period of time between Christ's first and second comings. This is when satan was loosed. This is the very first time we see satanic activity since the temptation in the garden. There was no satanic activity after the garden incident UNTIL Christ appeared. The absence of ALL satanic activity before Christ proves that satan was bound until Christ's first coming.

Thus the first saints were in the "little season" but in the end of it. We know this to be true because satan's judgment was NEAR TO THEM. Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this world cast out" (John 12:32). Paul said that satan would be "SHORTLY" dashed to pieces under the feet of the first Christians (Rom. 16:20). So satan was dashed to pieces under THEIR feet and subsequently cast into the lake of fire.

So here is the true biblical chronology:

1. Satan bound around the time he was cursed in the garden and throughout the old testament period (no satanic activity).

2. He was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first coming and His second coming in ad70 (all kinds of satanic activity during this time).

3. He was judged in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire (mankind is the sole source of all evil now).

4. We are in the new earth which is the eternal new covenant age (The first heaven and earth were the old covenant, Deuteronomy chaps 30-32. The physical heaven and earth has no prophetic relevance).

thinker

1Ch 21:1   And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Job 1:6   Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7   And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 1:8   And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:9   Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Job 1:12   And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:1   Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 2:2   And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 2:3   And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job 2:4   And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

Job 2:6   And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand; but save his life.

Job 2:7   So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Psa 109:6  Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

Zec 3:1   And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.


Blessings
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: apokalupsis on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 14:13:09
Besides, talking about people to other people, while in front of them is totally rude.  

but to enjoy some stretching...


The absence of ALL satanic activity before Christ proves that satan was bound until Christ's first coming.

You mean besides times like Genesis 3, Job 1-2, I Chronicles 21, or Zechariah 3?

John's vision in Revelation 20 took him BACK IN TIME

I assume then that the judgment of God on all mankind was also something that took place BACK IN TIME.  But what about the destruction of Death?  Death is thrown into the Lake of Fire as well.  Is Death no longer around?

And if Satan walks around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour as Peter says, then how is Satan also in the Lake of Fire?  Or does this verse not apply to us?  And does the verse from Paul who writes that we are not unaware of Satan's schemes, also not apply to us?

So satan was dashed to pieces under THEIR feet and subsequently cast into the lake of fire.

See, the subsequently claim there is actually not in Romans 16:19.

That's in Revelation 20 which you claim is back in time because there is no Satanic activity at all (except that there was actually) and because John called him an ANCIENT serpent?  

Well God is the Ancient of Days but I feel like He's also around today.

In other words, I find those claims to be a ..... stretch.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 14:28:28
TO ALL,

The thousands of years were fulfilled during the old testament period when satan was bound. John's vision in Revelation 20 took him BACK IN TIME. John said that he saw the "ANCIENT serpent" in a great chain and cast into the abyss. John saw the "ANCIENT serpent" cast into the abyss. The proof that satan was bound during the ot period is that there was no satanic activity during the old testament period.

Then John's vision takes him to the "little season" in His present time. The "little season" was that period of time between Christ's first and second comings. This is when satan was loosed. This is the very first time we see satanic activity since the temptation in the garden. There was no satanic activity after the garden incident UNTIL Christ appeared. The absence of ALL satanic activity before Christ proves that satan was bound until Christ's first coming.

Thus the first saints were in the "little season" but in the end of it. We know this to be true because satan's judgment was NEAR TO THEM. Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this world cast out" (John 12:32). Paul said that satan would be "SHORTLY" dashed to pieces under the feet of the first Christians (Rom. 16:20). So satan was dashed to pieces under THEIR feet and subsequently cast into the lake of fire.

So here is the true biblical chronology:

1. Satan bound around the time he was cursed in the garden and throughout the old testament period (no satanic activity).

2. He was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first coming and His second coming in ad70 (all kinds of satanic activity during this time).

3. He was judged in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire (mankind is the sole source of all evil now).

4. We are in the new earth which is the eternal new covenant age (The first heaven and earth were the old covenant, Deuteronomy chaps 30-32. The physical heaven and earth has no prophetic relevance).

thinker

1Ch 21:1   And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Job 1:6   Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7   And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 1:8   And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:9   Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Job 1:12   And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:1   Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 2:2   And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 2:3   And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job 2:4   And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

Job 2:6   And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand; but save his life.

Job 2:7   So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Psa 109:6  Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

Zec 3:1   And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.


Blessings

Joyfullee,

The word "sawtawn" in the Hebrew simply means "accuser." So 1 Chronicles should read, "And an accuser stood up against Israel...." The "accuser" that stood against Israel was God:

"And the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel and He moved David against them...." 2 Samuel 24:1

Job's "accuser" (sawtawn) was a man.

Psalm 109:6 simply means "accuser"

"Set a wicked man over him, And let an accuser stand at his right hand." NKJV

In Zechariah God was the "Adversary" (sawtawn) and the Angel of God (Christ) was Joshua's Advocate:

" 1And he sheweth me Joshua the high priest standing before the messenger of Jehovah, and the Adversary standing at his right hand, to be an adversary to him." Young's Literal Translation

The translations which say "satan" are wrong.

Satan was bound throughout the old testament period. He was loosed for the "little season" between the two comings of Christ. It was not until then that we see satanic activity. He was judged in the first century and cast into the lake of fire.

thinker



Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 14:33:12
apokalupsis wrote:
Quote
Besides, talking about people to other people, while in front of them is totally rude.

And belittling remarks in front of others like, "I enjoy a good" stretch after lunch" without offering a thought out reply is rude. But I apologize for my response.

Please see my post to Joyfullee immediately above.

thinker 

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Joyfullee on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 14:39:31
Rev. 12:9
Rev. 12:10
Rev. 12:11
Rev. 12:12


From Strong's for:  Satan  (Satanas)  proper masculine noun

Noun = name of a person, place or thing


1) adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to

a) the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ

1) he incites apostasy from God and to sin

2) circumventing men by his wiles

3) the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control

4) by his demons he is able to take possession of men and inflict them with diseases

5) by God's assistance he is overcome

6) on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment

b) a Satan-like man
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 14:53:02
TO ALL,

The thousands of years were fulfilled during the old testament period when satan was bound. John's vision in Revelation 20 took him BACK IN TIME. John said that he saw the "ANCIENT serpent" in a great chain and cast into the abyss. John saw the "ANCIENT serpent" cast into the abyss. The proof that satan was bound during the ot period is that there was no satanic activity during the old testament period.

Then John's vision takes him to the "little season" in His present time. The "little season" was that period of time between Christ's first and second comings. This is when satan was loosed. This is the very first time we see satanic activity since the temptation in the garden. There was no satanic activity after the garden incident UNTIL Christ appeared. The absence of ALL satanic activity before Christ proves that satan was bound until Christ's first coming.

Thus the first saints were in the "little season" but in the end of it. We know this to be true because satan's judgment was NEAR TO THEM. Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this world cast out" (John 12:32). Paul said that satan would be "SHORTLY" dashed to pieces under the feet of the first Christians (Rom. 16:20). So satan was dashed to pieces under THEIR feet and subsequently cast into the lake of fire.

So here is the true biblical chronology:

1. Satan bound around the time he was cursed in the garden and throughout the old testament period (no satanic activity).

2. He was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first coming and His second coming in ad70 (all kinds of satanic activity during this time).

3. He was judged in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire (mankind is the sole source of all evil now).

4. We are in the new earth which is the eternal new covenant age (The first heaven and earth were the old covenant, Deuteronomy chaps 30-32. The physical heaven and earth has no prophetic relevance).

thinker

This analysis of the "thousand years"  makes sense. 

Then it must be that in Revelation 20, it seems God uses the "thousand years" as an expression of "a long time"  TWICE?  - and the "deceiving of the nations" in the first expression of the "thousand years" only applied to Israel.

I say that because the apostles- who didn't take the mark of the beast during the N.T. time- who were promised to sit on thrones judging (not literal judges like in the O.T though) the 12 tribes of Israel- that would have to be a separate expression of God using "a thousand years"  reigning with Christ   - since Satan was loosed for his little season during the N.T. time?

And by "satanic activity" do you mean Satan indwelling in people? What is the difference between Satan being bound and being loosed? 
Is his power only curtailed or defeated by those in Christ- or can Satan not affect anyone anymore in reality?
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 15:02:06
Rev. 12:9
Rev. 12:10
Rev. 12:11
Rev. 12:12


From Strong's for:  Satan  (Satanas)  proper masculine noun

Noun = name of a person, place or thing


1) adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to

a) the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ

1) he incites apostasy from God and to sin

2) circumventing men by his wiles

3) the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control

4) by his demons he is able to take possession of men and inflict them with diseases

5) by God's assistance he is overcome

6) on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment

b) a Satan-like man

Strong's first definition of the Hebrew "sawtawn" is "an opponent" (Strong's# 7854). The first definition is the PRIMARY definition.

In 1 Chronicles 21:1 God was Israel's "opponent." We are CLEARLY told this in 2 Samuel 24:1. It explicitly says that it was God who moved David against Israel. There is no old tesatament evidence that satan was active after he was cursed in the garden. John's vision went back to the binding of the "ANCIENT serpent." He was loosed when Christ appeared and judged at Christ's second appearance in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire.

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Joyfullee on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 15:13:05
Rev. 12:9
Rev. 12:10
Rev. 12:11
Rev. 12:12


From Strong's for:  Satan  (Satanas)  proper masculine noun

Noun = name of a person, place or thing


1) adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to

a) the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ

1) he incites apostasy from God and to sin

2) circumventing men by his wiles

3) the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control

4) by his demons he is able to take possession of men and inflict them with diseases

5) by God's assistance he is overcome

6) on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment

b) a Satan-like man

Strong's first definition of the Hebrew "sawtawn" is "an opponent" (Strong's# 7854). The first definition is the PRIMARY definition.

In 1 Chronicles 21:1 God was Israel's "opponent." We are CLEARLY told this in 2 Samuel 24:1. It explicitly says that it was God who moved David against Israel. There is no old tesatament evidence that satan was active after he was cursed in the garden. John's vision went back to the binding of the "ANCIENT serpent." He was loosed when Christ appeared and judged at Christ's second appearance in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire.

thinker

Context my friend, context.  Not pick and choose to fit what one wants to believe.  The leading of the indwelling Holy Spirit should be allowed to lead in the understanding of God's Word.

Blessings
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: apokalupsis on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 15:43:59
I only belittled your claims thethinker.  ::whistle::
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: apokalupsis on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 15:56:14
And ummm.....  since the Bible specifically calls Satan our "adversary" in I Peter

and since Satan is always pictured in an adversarial relationship to God and His people in the Old Testament

Then I'm totally fine with taking the PRIMARY definition and saying it's still talking about Satan.

Besides


#1...
You're taking I Chronicles out of context and saying God enticed David to take a census when the Bible says point blank in James that God does not tempt anyone.

#2
Strong's Dictionary also says (cut and paste) "an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good"

#3
You avoided any mention of Job


Huge stretch to explain away these things and then use this as your proof that Satan was bound during the Old Testament.

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: larry2 on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 15:57:54

In 1 Chronicles 21:1 God was Israel's "opponent." We are CLEARLY told this in 2 Samuel 24:1. It explicitly says that it was God who moved David against Israel. There is no old tesatament evidence that satan was active after he was cursed in the garden. John's vision went back to the binding of the "ANCIENT serpent." He was loosed when Christ appeared and judged at Christ's second appearance in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire.

thinker


Why do we continue to have an accuser? Is the lake of fire in high places? Ephesians 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 17:38:17
I only belittled your claims thethinker.  ::whistle::

I only belittled your non reply reply.

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 17:42:44
And ummm.....  since the Bible specifically calls Satan our "adversary" in I Peter

and since Satan is always pictured in an adversarial relationship to God and His people in the Old Testament

Then I'm totally fine with taking the PRIMARY definition and saying it's still talking about Satan.

Besides


#1...
You're taking I Chronicles out of context and saying God enticed David to take a census when the Bible says point blank in James that God does not tempt anyone.

#2
Strong's Dictionary also says (cut and paste) "an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good"

#3
You avoided any mention of Job


Huge stretch to explain away these things and then use this as your proof that Satan was bound during the Old Testament.



Satan was still loosed when Peter was written but was about to be crushed (Romans 16:20). THEIR accuser was crushed. Consequently, WE do not have an accuser.

Again, Peter was written during the "little season" of satan's loosing when THEIR accuser was loosed and rampant.

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Bitter Sweet on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 17:45:46

Why do we continue to have an accuser?

Because he doesn't have any love in his heart.

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 17:50:00

In 1 Chronicles 21:1 God was Israel's "opponent." We are CLEARLY told this in 2 Samuel 24:1. It explicitly says that it was God who moved David against Israel. There is no old tesatament evidence that satan was active after he was cursed in the garden. John's vision went back to the binding of the "ANCIENT serpent." He was loosed when Christ appeared and judged at Christ's second appearance in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire.

thinker


Why do we continue to have an accuser? Is the lake of fire in high places? Ephesians 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The first saints defeated those in the high places. Paul said that satan would be crushed under THEIR feet SHORTLY (Rom. 16:20). The forces of darkness have been removed from the high places and are now in the lake of fire.

Paul said that THEY (the first saints) were seated in the high places doing battle with the forces of darkness in the high places so that WE in the AGES TO COME might have salvation (Eph. 2:6-7; 6:10-13).

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: larry2 on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 18:02:09

I reckon I just never thought of heaven or eternity being like this. Has our last enemy death been destroyed?
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Fri Aug 05, 2011 - 18:25:00

I reckon I just never thought of heaven or eternity being like this. Has our last enemy death been destroyed?

Who said heaven is like this? Yes THEIR last enemy death has been destroyed. Consequently, WE do not die. WE go straight to be with Jesus in our body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5). THEY did not go straight to be with Jesus. THEY had to sleep in hades (sheol) until Christ abolished death which He did by the time 2 Timothy was written:

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, WHO HAS ABOLISHED DEATH and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

2 Timothy 1:9-10


thinker

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Sat Aug 06, 2011 - 21:02:58
Quote
But what about the destruction of Death?  Death is thrown into the Lake of Fire as well.

Yes, Satan and the devil are used in a variety of ways in scripture. The devil had the power of death - and the sting of death was sin. The devil incarnate was  represented as sins in our flesh.
The power of death was always in "sin" and not a demonic being.  And the power of sin was the Law. ( see 1 Cor. 15:56)

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: apokalupsis on Sat Aug 06, 2011 - 21:03:15
It's a watered down hope.  Death exists in painful reality all over the world, but the promise that death will be "destroyed" and that "there will be no more" sorrow or pain or death, or the promise that "the old order of things" will pass away... really just means that we will live forever in eternity in Heaven instead of Paradise with Abraham?

That's it?  That's the best God can do?  Really.

And it's simply not necessary because Bible prophecy, taken straightforwardly, is not only a greater hope than this by far, but is perfectly consistent with Scripture and our world.  Why go off in left field like this when the plain sense makes sense?

And what about the Ephesians?  When Paul wrote the church in Rome and told them Satan would be crushed underneath their feet, why not the Ephesians? Why didn't he tell them the same thing? Or any other church?  After all, the entire context of that verse in Romans 16:19 is speaking specifically to one church.  Not to the world-wide church.  



Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: apokalupsis on Sat Aug 06, 2011 - 21:05:38

Yes, Satan and the devil are used in a variety of ways in scripture. The devil had the power of death - and the sting of death was sin. The devil incarnate was  represented as sins in our flesh.
The power of death was always in "sin" and not a demonic being.  And the power of sin was the Law. ( see 1 Cor. 15:56)

So how can you believe Satan is literally in hell, but you can't believe that death will literally be destroyed?

OR do you believe in Satan at all?  Many people believe he is simply symbolic of sin or evil or Republicans.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Sat Aug 06, 2011 - 21:23:52

Yes, Satan and the devil are used in a variety of ways in scripture. The devil had the power of death - and the sting of death was sin. The devil incarnate was  represented as sins in our flesh.
The power of death was always in "sin" and not a demonic being.  And the power of sin was the Law. ( see 1 Cor. 15:56)

So how can you believe Satan is literally in hell, but you can't believe that death will literally be destroyed?

OR do you believe in Satan at all?  Many people believe he is simply symbolic of sin or evil or Republicans.

Death is destroyed, Eternal life begins now.  But it is still appointed for man to die once. and then his/her judgment or not.  Christ defeated "death" but He still had to die to do it.

Eternal life isn't appreciated this side of eternity because it takes faith, which is the substance of things not seen.

Do I believe "in" Satan? No. We give something much more power when we believe in it.  I don't believe there is a Satanic being.
Satan and the devil are used as a source of evil or temptation in scripture. For instance, the "thorn" that was in Paul's side that was from Satan. Peter and Paul cwere continuously challenged and burdened by the Judaizers- like " Satan masquerading as angels of light."
That merely meant that the Judaizers were false apostles.  See, so Satan IS an adversary and a source of evil.  Sometimes personified too.
The influence of Satan is "to sin."  That's what is left of Satan after being thrown to the lake of fire.
But there's definitely no demonic being called Satan.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Consumingfire on Thu Aug 11, 2011 - 13:10:46
TO ALL,

The thousands of years were fulfilled during the old testament period when satan was bound. John's vision in Revelation 20 took him BACK IN TIME. John said that he saw the "ANCIENT serpent" in a great chain and cast into the abyss. John saw the "ANCIENT serpent" cast into the abyss. The proof that satan was bound during the ot period is that there was no satanic activity during the old testament period.

Then John's vision takes him to the "little season" in His present time. The "little season" was that period of time between Christ's first and second comings. This is when satan was loosed. This is the very first time we see satanic activity since the temptation in the garden. There was no satanic activity after the garden incident UNTIL Christ appeared. The absence of ALL satanic activity before Christ proves that satan was bound until Christ's first coming.

Thus the first saints were in the "little season" but in the end of it. We know this to be true because satan's judgment was NEAR TO THEM. Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this world cast out" (John 12:32). Paul said that satan would be "SHORTLY" dashed to pieces under the feet of the first Christians (Rom. 16:20). So satan was dashed to pieces under THEIR feet and subsequently cast into the lake of fire.

So here is the true biblical chronology:

1. Satan bound around the time he was cursed in the garden and throughout the old testament period (no satanic activity).

2. He was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first coming and His second coming in ad70 (all kinds of satanic activity during this time).

3. He was judged in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire (mankind is the sole source of all evil now).

4. We are in the new earth which is the eternal new covenant age (The first heaven and earth were the old covenant, Deuteronomy chaps 30-32. The physical heaven and earth has no prophetic relevance).

thinker

1Ch 21:1   And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Job 1:6   Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Job 1:7   And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 1:8   And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:9   Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

Job 1:12   And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:1   Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 2:2   And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 2:3   And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job 2:4   And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

Job 2:6   And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand; but save his life.

Job 2:7   So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Psa 109:6  Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

Zec 3:1   And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.


Blessings

Joyfullee,

The word "sawtawn" in the Hebrew simply means "accuser." So 1 Chronicles should read, "And an accuser stood up against Israel...." The "accuser" that stood against Israel was God:

"And the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel and He moved David against them...." 2 Samuel 24:1

Job's "accuser" (sawtawn) was a man.

Psalm 109:6 simply means "accuser"

"Set a wicked man over him, And let an accuser stand at his right hand." NKJV

In Zechariah God was the "Adversary" (sawtawn) and the Angel of God (Christ) was Joshua's Advocate:

" 1And he sheweth me Joshua the high priest standing before the messenger of Jehovah, and the Adversary standing at his right hand, to be an adversary to him." Young's Literal Translation

The translations which say "satan" are wrong.

Satan was bound throughout the old testament period. He was loosed for the "little season" between the two comings of Christ. It was not until then that we see satanic activity. He was judged in the first century and cast into the lake of fire.

thinker




This is not the first or last time you have been completely off on a subject. This is, however, one of the most egregious misinterpretations that I have seen.  Satan is referred to as the accuser and used in conjunction with being the accuser several times in the Bible.  God is the completely opposite of the accuser and this is referenced throughout the Bible. 

I think one problem you are having is with going to deep into your anthropomorphic comparisons.  You tend to sometimes go way, way to far with a concept that is should only be used as grounds for fundamental and basic levels of understanding. 
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Fri Aug 12, 2011 - 21:24:41
I see the board is running again so I'll be back.

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: apokalupsis on Fri Aug 12, 2011 - 21:42:45

Yes, Satan and the devil are used in a variety of ways in scripture. The devil had the power of death - and the sting of death was sin. The devil incarnate was  represented as sins in our flesh.
The power of death was always in "sin" and not a demonic being.  And the power of sin was the Law. ( see 1 Cor. 15:56)

So how can you believe Satan is literally in hell, but you can't believe that death will literally be destroyed?

OR do you believe in Satan at all?  Many people believe he is simply symbolic of sin or evil or Republicans.

Death is destroyed, Eternal life begins now.  But it is still appointed for man to die once. and then his/her judgment or not.  Christ defeated "death" but He still had to die to do it.

Eternal life isn't appreciated this side of eternity because it takes faith, which is the substance of things not seen.

Do I believe "in" Satan? No. We give something much more power when we believe in it.  I don't believe there is a Satanic being.
Satan and the devil are used as a source of evil or temptation in scripture. For instance, the "thorn" that was in Paul's side that was from Satan. Peter and Paul cwere continuously challenged and burdened by the Judaizers- like " Satan masquerading as angels of light."
That merely meant that the Judaizers were false apostles.  See, so Satan IS an adversary and a source of evil.  Sometimes personified too.
The influence of Satan is "to sin."  That's what is left of Satan after being thrown to the lake of fire.
But there's definitely no demonic being called Satan.

Figured.  Look, you have to do so many gymnastics of interpretation with passages such as Christ's explanation of Satan (which is different than your own), Christ's temptation, Peter's description of Satan, Paul's references to Satan, Adam and Eve's confrontation with Satan, the account of Satan in the book of Job, etc....

That in the end, the Bible cannot be taken seriously.  Any passage can be twisted to mean something else.  Seeking some hidden meaning in the text may be an attempt to appear more enlightened, but it glorifies man and man's interpretation, while transforming God into any sort of God we desire. 

How do we know God even exists?  Perhaps he is just an expression of good, not a literal being.

this is merely a form of godliness, devoid of power
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Sat Aug 13, 2011 - 11:11:00
Figured also that learning is only for the open minded!
"Peter's description of Satan?"  Right there you either do not recognize or just deny anyway that "they" were in an "evil age," and say no, Peter meant in our modern times! And "twisting" scripture is for those who think God can't relate time to man and must elasticize "soon" or "shortly" - even though God's time statements are clear. 
If the terms "Satan"and the "devil" are all used in scripture as the same evil incarnate being - then why did Christ call Peter "Satan?" I know why, but I do not have the time to explain all the different ways Satan and the devil are used in scripture.

So, no way, the end of that "evil age" came.  (Gal.1:4; Eph.6:12)
We are in that "age to come."
That age  (this age now) is the "kingdom of God."  And it never ends. (Isa.9:7;Dan.2:35;2:44;Eph.3:21)
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: apokalupsis on Sun Aug 14, 2011 - 08:59:38
Peter's description of Satan was true in his time and in our time.  Why would it not be?  

Did not Peter write during a period of persecution?  But in the last 100 years more Christians have been killed for their faith than the rest of history combined.   Which time was more evil?  If I'm just going by dead Christians, I'd have to say modern times.  So then this must be an evil time as well.  Or is there another measure besides persecution that makes that time more evil?  Idolatry? Rebellion? Immorality?  Don't these things fit today even more?

Peter himself explained "soon" and "shortly" from God's point of view in II Peter 3 so there is no need for me to do anything except take Peter at his word regarding those terms.

And it's the same thing I do with what Peter said about Satan.  Anything else would be inconsistent and poor exegesis.


Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Sun Aug 14, 2011 - 12:00:26
Quote
And it's the same thing I do with what Peter said about Satan.  Anything else would be inconsistent and poor exegesis.
::giggle:: On the grounds of the hermeneutic of audience relevance and true exegesis of various parallel passages concerning "that evil age" of which Peter and the other apostles referred to is what is consistent with a proper interpretation.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: apokalupsis on Sun Aug 14, 2011 - 16:58:48
::giggle:: On the grounds of the hermeneutic of audience relevance and true exegesis of various parallel passages concerning "that evil age" of which Peter and the other apostles referred to is what is consistent with a proper interpretation.

I've already challenged your presuppositions of Peter's audience compared with our own.  What is the basis to assume Peter's day was more evil than our own?  What is the basis to assume Peter's age is different than our own in the dispensation of God's relationship to mankind?  There is no difference.  This is not a different age.  What Peter said applies to us, regardless of how badly we'd like to water down the Gospel and do away with ideas like Satan, sin, homosexuality as a sin, judgment, a literal second coming, et al.  

I remain utterly convinced Satan is a being, who does seek to destroy.  Paul refers to his schemes.  Jesus refers to his lies and also speaks directly to him a few times if you remember.  The book of Job describes Satan speaking with God.

You haven't answered any of those cases.  Only Peter's reference and here you mention parallel passages concerning "that evil age?"

"Evil Age" appears once in the Bible using the four versions I have on my computer here, so what parallel passage are you referring to?  It should take at least two.

Galatians 1:4 says Jesus gave Himself for our sins to rescue us from this "evil age."

If we are no longer in THAT evil age, then does Jesus need to sacrifice Himself again for our age?

If it is as I suspect, the interpretation that proposes they lived in an "evil age" and we living in the "age to come" then for me, that requires too much ignoring of any factual details contained in passages that describe the age to come AND the ignoring of too many details of clear and literal fulfillment of prophecy both past and present.  

In other words, I have to say that the Bible does not mean what it says to a wide degree, when the Bible is literally correct in what it says regardless!  

Which is why I say this is wholly unnecessary.  Why not believe it?  It fits much easier with the audience both past a present and is a hermeneutic a piece of cake.

After all, it's accurate.  What's the basis for changing it?


Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Sun Aug 14, 2011 - 18:43:22

Quote
Galatians 1:4 says Jesus gave Himself for our sins to rescue us from this "evil age."

If we are no longer in THAT evil age, then does Jesus need to sacrifice Himself again for our age?

The point you miss is that the emphasis is on "this present evil age"  Paul wrote that in the 50's AD.
Again, the emphasis is on the time that was a "wicked generation" or "evil age"

We all know that Christ died in that age "when the fullness of time had come"  

We could say that Christ died for our sins to rescue us from the world  too because that is what salvation is, but in Galatians, Paul is specifically speaking about the time of end of the age of Judaism and the Law.
Why you deny yourself the reality of living in the "world to come" I have no idea.
But we are. It's a fact. "world" is interchangeable with "age." This is the new heavens and earth that both O.T. and N.T. wrote about. We are the temple of God. The kingdom is spiritual. Your either "where righteousness dwells" or you aren't. And it is not a place, but a state of being.

The Resurrection for the living was spiritual. The death that was removed was sin death or spiritual death from the Law.

Of course Peter's and Paul's ,etc. days were more evil than we have now. Satan was loosed and even inhabited people spiritually. He was the great deceiver and even fooled Israel into worshiping the beast.(Caesar)  But Jesus crushed him in that "age" which Paul said was
"soon" in Romans 16:20.  
You are perfectly welcome to believe Satan is a being with any real power to destroy.

I choose to believe Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and He did not fail.

Yes, the Son made me free indeed.  No devil chases after me nor do any evil spirits exist anymore.
God is the judge of the world, and that included the judgment of the adversary or the "evil one", the devil.

It's over.  Praise God!


 

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: apokalupsis on Mon Aug 15, 2011 - 17:34:33
The point you miss is that the emphasis is on "this present evil age" Paul wrote that in the 50's AD.
Again, the emphasis is on the time that was a "wicked generation" or "evil age"

You have to twist the logic of the verse too much to get there.

Galatians 1:4
who gave Himself for our sins to rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.


We cannot say this passage is pointing out the "time," and argue that the time applies only until 70 AD, without ALSO applying "gave Himself for our sins" to the time until 70 AD.

That's like saying, "gave Himself for our sins to rescue us FROM the recession of 2008, according to the will of our God and Father." 

It begs the question about saving us from any future recessions or times.  The point preterism tries to make with that verse simply isn't there IMO.

We all know that Christ died in that age "when the fullness of time had come"  We could say that Christ died for our sins to rescue us from the world  too because that is what salvation is, but in Galatians, Paul is specifically speaking about the time of end of the age of Judaism and the Law.

Galatians 1:4 says nothing about "the time of the age of Judaism and the Law."   The "present evil age" was not Judaism and the Law but our world. We were not bound to the Law until 70 AD, we were freed from the Law by cross of Christ, 30 years before 70 AD.  When Paul spoke in Galatians, Christ had ALREADY rescued us from the Law, thus it could not be PRESENT for the Christian.  It was a done deal, already, unrelated to the Romans sacking Jerusalem.

ALREADY rescued from the Law:
Gal 3:24  The law, then, was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25  But since that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,

Why you deny yourself the reality of living in the "world to come" I have no idea.
I just did a funeral today Lehigh.  If this is the world to come, I'm sorely disappointed in it. 

"world" is interchangeable with "age."

That would be convenient wouldn't it?

This is the new heavens and earth that both O.T. and N.T. wrote about. We are the temple of God. The kingdom is spiritual. Your either "where righteousness dwells" or you aren't. And it is not a place, but a state of being.

Good analogies, but to say this NEGATES the literal meaning is contradicted by Scripture.  Look at two verses in particular, in the first Jesus said, "in my Father's house are many dwelling places, if it were not so I would have told you.  I GO to prepare a place for you.  (He literally WENT) And if I GO to prepare a place for you, I will come back and receive you to myself, that where I am, there you may BE also.

In the second Scripture, an angel explained "This same Jesus has been taken from you into heaven (very literally) will come IN THE SAME WAY you've seen Him going into heaven."

Either Jesus is confused and the angels are lying, or Jesus went and prepared a place other than here, and someday he will return literally and take us to be there.

This did not happen in 70 AD.

Of course Peter's and Paul's ,etc. days were more evil than we have now.  Satan was loosed and even inhabited people spiritually. He was the great deceiver and even fooled Israel into worshiping the beast.(Caesar)  But Jesus crushed him in that "age" which Paul said was
"soon" in Romans 16:20. 

So you believe Satan used to be a real being but isn't anymore?  Interesting.

Again, what facts do you have that show Satan inhabited people spiritually but doesn't today?  What part of this age makes you believe that Satan is less active on this earth?  Since more Christians have been killed in the last century than the rest of history combined, is that evidence that Satan is LESS active on this earth?  Since more Jews have been killed in the last century than all those killed in 70 AD, does that mean Satan is LESS active on this earth?

I don't see it.

"If only in this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied above all men."  I think that line is still true.

Finally...

How can we believe the physical burning and destruction of walls and mortar and wood, coupled with the killing of Jewish men, women and children with swords and spears, equals the beginning of "the coming age?"

Wasn't the "coming age" supposed to be one of victory?  Wasn't that when God would be king over all the earth after defeating His enemies? 

Because if we are going to say this is merely spiritual....

Then how come we tie the spiritual event directly to a physical assault on innocent people in 70 AD?  Shouldn't it be tied to some spiritual event instead?



Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Mon Aug 15, 2011 - 21:28:23
Quote
You have to twist the logic of the verse too much to get there.

Galatians 1:4
who gave Himself for our sins to rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.

We cannot say this passage is pointing out the "time," and argue that the time applies only until 70 AD, without ALSO applying "gave Himself for our sins" to the time until 70 AD.

That's like saying, "gave Himself for our sins to rescue us FROM the recession of 2008, according to the will of our God and Father."

Actually, the logic of "this present age" should be obvious to who Paul is addressing. The "when" is what you can't seem to find logical. If Paul was addressing us today, he might say "He gave Himself for our sins so that we in this age, might have eternal life."
But Paul specifically mentions "this present age" - which is the focus of this thread anyway.
Quote
It begs the question about saving us from any future recessions or times.  The point preterism tries to make with that verse simply isn't there IMO.
I already addressed what Paul might say about Christ's sacrifice. And I don't need any labels. It's the word of God. Paul was speaking about his "present"  not ours.
Even in Eph. 6:12, Paul reiterates "this evil age" in the KJV.
Quote
When Paul spoke in Galatians, Christ had ALREADY rescued us from the Law, thus it could not be PRESENT for the Christian.  It was a done deal, already, unrelated to the Romans sacking Jerusalem.
You are very mistaken. The Law did not pass at the cross. You should listen more closely to Jesus' words, because He makes clear that "heaven and earth" which is symbolic for the temple and the old covenant with Israel, would pass before any of the Law would.
Matthew 5:18 where Jesus said “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: apokalupsis on Tue Aug 16, 2011 - 00:09:14
Actually, the logic of "this present age" should be obvious to who Paul is addressing. The "when" is what you can't seem to find logical. If Paul was addressing us today, he might say "He gave Himself for our sins so that we in this age, might have eternal life."
But Paul specifically mentions "this present age" - which is the focus of this thread anyway.
I already addressed what Paul might say about Christ's sacrifice. And I don't need any labels. It's the word of God. Paul was speaking about his "present"  not ours.

Again, I find zero basis for saying Paul's time was any different than our own in regards to wickedness, sin, death, suffering, or evil.  He was speaking of his present time and what he said about his time was true, but his time is no different than ours.  Certainly the empirical evidence demands this. 

Furthermore, beyond the logical problems already mentioned, saying the phrase "this present time" does not exclude the same being true in the future.  In this present time, divorce is rampant.  This does not prove it will be rare 50 years from now.   

Even in Eph. 6:12, Paul reiterates "this evil age" in the KJV.

Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

I didn't read "this evil age" in there.

Paul speaks of evil here of course, but there is no reiteration, or even iteration, of his "age" being a different time/dispensation/era from 2011 AD.  There is no mention of when, or the manner, in which the circumstances presented will end.  It is a statement of fact.  Saying it is not true today, is a statement of opinion.

You are very mistaken. The Law did not pass at the cross. You should listen more closely to Jesus' words, because He makes clear that "heaven and earth" which is symbolic for the temple and the old covenant with Israel, would pass before any of the Law would.

You missed what I was saying.

First, I did not say that the Law passed at the cross.  I did not say that literally or in context.  Let me quote the Bible to be safe:

"we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."


This was speaking to Christians in 55-56 AD. 

Therefore, Christians were "released" not bound, freed, rescued from the Law prior to 70 AD.  In the book of Acts, long before 70 AD, the Church made a decision at Jerusalem to NOT require the Gentiles to follow the Law of Moses.

Therefore, the Mosaic Law as a system of religion in Judaism did not need 70 AD to be removed.  It was removed as the basis for following and serving God at the cross of Christ.

or as this verse says:

...having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. -Colossians 2:14

Not just convenient, but a fact too. Research the Greek or different Bible versions.

This was concerning your statement that the word "age" in the Bible = "world."

It is a fact?

Vines Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says:
The word (aion) occurs most frequently in the Gospel of John, the Hebrews and Revelation. It is sometimes wrongly rendered "world."

What you need to do, because you must be talking about the Greek word aion, is simply say what verses you are comparing, then we can argue those.  After all, the Greek word kosmos which is translated "world" in several places, certainly does not equal "age."

Quote
Look at two verses in particular, in the first Jesus said, "in my Father's house are many dwelling places, if it were not so I would have told you.  I GO to prepare a place for you.  (He literally WENT) And if I GO to prepare a place for you, I will come back and receive you to myself, that where I am, there you may BE also.

Well, I believe He meant that passage to mean when we physically die. When we are on earth we have the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of that inheritance when we die.

Quote
In the second Scripture, an angel explained "This same Jesus has been taken from you into heaven (very literally) will come IN THE SAME WAY you've seen Him going into heaven."

What the angels meant was that, the way He entered heaven would be the way He would return. And how did He enter heaven? On the clouds. That is what they meant.
And Jesus would appear on the glory cloud and the Sanhedrin would perceive His power, just like Jesus told them would happen.

In both cases, I believe what it means is directly tied to what it actually said.

I believe Jesus met the incarnate devil in the wilderness. Was it a fallen angel? Probably.
But most of the time Satan and the devil are used in scripture to personify some enemy nation or as a source of evil and temptation or just an evil person.

We disagree.

The victory that is in the N.T. is the victory over sin and death, which was the sting of the Law. We are now under grace and it is this Faith that overcomes the world!

Isn't your statement here saying that the victory over sin and death, the victory over the sting of the Law, the establishment of grace and faith instead of the Law, came at the cross of Christ and not 70 AD?

My point about 70 AD is that it is not the end and fulfillment of all that was written.  Just look at what was written.  70 AD was a direct fulfillment of the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of Israel as the Bible predicted in Deuteronomy and other places, but it was not the final fulfillment of victory that the Old Testament speaks about.  It wasn't a day of victory at all.  It was a day of judgment.

Don't confuse the opposite of literal to be spiritual.  The opposite of literal is "figurative"

This is the language of the prophets. They used figurative language to describe literal events. So, when Revelation says the beast would turn on the harlot, it is prophetic and figurative language describing literal physical people. Roman was the beast, Jerusalem the harlot.
When God says he "sealed" 144,000, this sealing was used before in the O.T.  He sealed the remnant of Israel that He saved from the nations. Paul also said there was at the present time a remnant to be saved by grace.
God would say, "Come out of her my people." It's figurative language. God wanted to save all of His people (the Jews)  But as we know literally and physically, they were destroyed by fire and sword in the great tribulation.


Not the issue.  The issue is your claim that we are living in the "age to come" and that this age isn't literal, but symbolic... ok.... figurative. 

Then why did a literal killing spree by Roman soldiers usher this in?  I find that to be very arbitrary.


Roman was the beast, Jerusalem the harlot.

Two problems.  First, figurative images always have details that fit what they apply to.  Daniels statue, the four beasts, Revelation 12, etc...  With Rome and Jerusalem at that time, there was no correlation to a 3 1/2 year period, there was no image which spoke, there was no mark of the beast which everyone had to have in order to buy and sell.  And so on.   And mostly, Jesus did not destroy the beast with the splendor of his coming.

To make it fit, we have to say all those details don't matter, and well, I think they do.

Problem number two, even if we granted that it could be speaking of Rome and Jerusalem at that time, there's no way to know that it wasn't a "type" or some sort of "partial" fulfillment.

See the virgin birth with Isaiah, or Antiochus sacrificing a pig on the altar and defiling the temple.  If Jesus hadn't mentioned the abomination that causes desolation, we would all think Antiochus did it.  But because Jesus mentioned it, we say Antiochus was a type. 

If Antiochus was a type, then we have to be open to the possibility that Titus and Rome in 70 AD, was a type.

When God says he "sealed" 144,000, this sealing was used before in the O.T.  He sealed the remnant of Israel that He saved from the nations. Paul also said there was at the present time a remnant to be saved by grace.
God would say, "Come out of her my people." It's figurative language. God wanted to save all of His people (the Jews)  But as we know literally and physically, they were destroyed by fire and sword in the great tribulation.

When in the Old Testament did God "seal" a remnant of Israel?
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Tue Aug 16, 2011 - 17:21:32
Quote
Again, I find zero basis for saying Paul's time was any different than our own in regards to wickedness, sin, death, suffering, or evil.  He was speaking of his present time and what he said about his time was true, but his time is no different than ours.  Certainly the empirical evidence demands this.

Furthermore, beyond the logical problems already mentioned, saying the phrase "this present time" does not exclude the same being true in the future.  In this present time, divorce is rampant.  This does not prove it will be rare 50 years from now. 
Not only a poor analogy, but the topic of this thread is about Satan and Satan being loosed in the first century AD, and sent to the lake of fire in 70AD. Stick to the point without talking about other topics for discussion!
Quote
Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

I didn't read "this evil age" in there.

Paul speaks of evil here of course, but there is no reiteration, or even iteration, of his "age" being a different time/dispensation/era from 2011 AD.  There is no mention of when, or the manner, in which the circumstances presented will end.  It is a statement of fact.  Saying it is not true today, is a statement of opinion.
It is the NKJV:  Eph. 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[a] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. The KJV has many translation problems, I never rely on it alone. When it says, "this present world" the correct word is "age" (As in Matt.24 when the apostles asked when would the temple be destroyed, what was the sign of Your coming and the end of the "age" not world.
And to confirm Paul's timing in that "age" which many think were evil spirits in the heavenlies, were actually powers and authorities of Judaism in the heavenlies (heaven and earth) ....
we read Eph.3:9-11 NIV, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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You missed what I was saying.

First, I did not say that the Law passed at the cross.  I did not say that literally or in context.  Let me quote the Bible to be safe:

"we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

This was speaking to Christians in 55-56 AD.

Therefore, Christians were "released" not bound, freed, rescued from the Law prior to 70 AD.  In the book of Acts, long before 70 AD, the Church made a decision at Jerusalem to NOT require the Gentiles to follow the Law of Moses.

Therefore, the Mosaic Law as a system of religion in Judaism did not need 70 AD to be removed.  It was removed as the basis for following and serving God at the cross of Christ.

or as this verse says:

...having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. -Colossians 2:14
No your belief is that the law passed at the cross.
Paul writing in Col. defending that we don't finish in the flesh but in the spirit to the Gentile believers is another topic.
The Law of sin and death (the sting of death is in the Law) ah, and oh, death where is thy sting? (1Cor.15) is the same theology of Paul's that the Law DID need the event of AD70 as the sign that God had left the temple made with hands, and that the New Covenant of grace was for both Jew and Gentile!
That is why there is no more death for the remnant of Israel. (Rev.21)
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My point about 70 AD is that it is not the end and fulfillment of all that was written.  Just look at what was written.  70 AD was a direct fulfillment of the destruction of Jerusalem and the scattering of Israel as the Bible predicted in Deuteronomy and other places, but it was not the final fulfillment of victory that the Old Testament speaks about.  It wasn't a day of victory at all.  It was a day of judgment.
Too bad, oh my, you're way off because it was BOTH! Need I post what was said at the 7th trumpet?
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Roman was the beast, Jerusalem the harlot.
Two problems.  First, figurative images always have details that fit what they apply to.  Daniels statue, the four beasts, Revelation 12, etc...  With Rome and Jerusalem at that time, there was no correlation to a 3 1/2 year period, there was no image which spoke, there was no mark of the beast which everyone had to have in order to buy and sell.  And so on.   And mostly, Jesus did not destroy the beast with the splendor of his coming.
Satan gave Caesar his power. Rome is just the corporate identity of the beast. The man of sin was Nero Caesar,  and he was a beast fully equipped with the workings of Satan.
"Rome and Jerusalem at that time, there was no correlation to the 3 1/2 yr. period"
Are you kidding me? Have you read any of Josephus' works on the Jewish War? From AD67-70.5 when the temple was destroyed by Titus is exactly the "time, times, and a half time" spoken about when Rome turned on the harlot and burned her with fire! (Rev.17) This is the same time of the Roman empire in Dan.2, when the God of heaven started the kingdom with Christ. It was under the Roman Empire- and the Caesars later on in that generation when the Christians AND Jews would have to pay homage to Caesar in the pagan temples (the mark of the beast)

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If Antiochus was a type, then we have to be open to the possibility that Titus and Rome in 70 AD, was a type.
Scholarly typology knows that there is the "type" from the O.T. and there is the "antitype" fulfillment in the N.T.  Now I do believe AD70 included N.T. times.
And unless there's a N.T. #2 I don't know about, then we have no authority to assume such an absurd possibility!
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When in the Old Testament did God "seal" a remnant of Israel?
See Ezekiel 9:4.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: blu on Sun Aug 21, 2011 - 14:51:58
I am also still waiting for the people to instal screen doors on my submarine to keep out misquito fish.
 Let me know if you see that installation company passing by. I gave them a down payment but they never showed up yet.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Mon Aug 29, 2011 - 10:14:44
It's a watered down hope.  Death exists in painful reality all over the world, but the promise that death will be "destroyed" and that "there will be no more" sorrow or pain or death, or the promise that "the old order of things" will pass away... really just means that we will live forever in eternity in Heaven instead of Paradise with Abraham?

That's it?  That's the best God can do?  Really.

And it's simply not necessary because Bible prophecy, taken straightforwardly, is not only a greater hope than this by far, but is perfectly consistent with Scripture and our world.  Why go off in left field like this when the plain sense makes sense?

And what about the Ephesians?  When Paul wrote the church in Rome and told them Satan would be crushed underneath their feet, why not the Ephesians? Why didn't he tell them the same thing? Or any other church?  After all, the entire context of that verse in Romans 16:19 is speaking specifically to one church.  Not to the world-wide church.  





Wow! You don't think that eternity in heaven is a great hope? Paradise was the waiting place for souls of the saints until the resurrection. The souls of the wicked went to the pit and the souls of the saints went to paradise. The word "paradise" is from a Persian word which simply means "garden."

After death was destroyed the souls of the saints no longer went to the garden. They go straight to be with Christ in heaven. There is not one scintilla of evidence in the scripture which says that physical death will be abolished. Paul said that when our outer man perishes we will be clothed with our body from heaven (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5). The physical body will be recycled and provide nutrition for the earth.

The thing that are "passed away" are the things of the old covenant.

thinker

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Mon Aug 29, 2011 - 10:21:31
apockalupsis wrote:
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And what about the Ephesians?  When Paul wrote the church in Rome and told them Satan would be crushed underneath their feet, why not the Ephesians? Why didn't he tell them the same thing? Or any other church?  After all, the entire context of that verse in Romans 16:19 is speaking specifically to one church.  Not to the world-wide church.

This is a diversion from the plain statement that satan would be crushed under THEIR feet "SHORTLY."

The Ephesians were a part of it for they were doing battle with the forces of darkness in the heavenly places (ch. 6). So by a fortiori  satan was crushed under their feet too.

Satan is now in the lake of fire. You have nothing to do with anything. You just bask in the victory of the first saints.

thinker


Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Mon Aug 29, 2011 - 10:26:09
NO ONE is in the Lake of Fire, yet. Judgment Day has not taken place. It is important to know the Bible, but to think that Judgment Day has taken place and that the devil and his angels is already in the Lake of Fire is evidence of the lack of biblical understanding.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Mon Aug 29, 2011 - 10:35:43
NO ONE is in the Lake of Fire, yet. Judgment Day has not taken place. It is important to know the Bible, but to think that Judgment Day has taken place and that the devil and his angels is already in the Lake of Fire is evidence of the lack of biblical understanding.

You're not in agreemment with the bible's timetable. Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this word cast out" (John 12:32). Jesus said that both the judgment of the world and of satan was "NOW."

Paul said that stan would be crushed under THEIR feet "SHORTLY" (Romans 16:20).

NOW MEANS "NOW" and SHORTLY means "SHORTLY."

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Mon Aug 29, 2011 - 10:39:53
NO ONE is in the Lake of Fire, yet. Judgment Day has not taken place. It is important to know the Bible, but to think that Judgment Day has taken place and that the devil and his angels is already in the Lake of Fire is evidence of the lack of biblical understanding.

You're not in agreemment with the bible's timetable. Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this word cast out" (John 12:32). Jesus said that both the judgment of the world and of satan was "NOW."

Paul said that stan would be crushed under THEIR feet "SHORTLY" (Romans 16:20).

NOW MEANS "NOW" and SHORTLY means "SHORTLY."

thinker

Yes, Jesus said that. He has judged and put Satan in his place on the cross. Jesus did it. Now we must also defeat Satan in reality in our lives.

However, the Judgment Day has not occurred yet. That is the Day God finally dispatches Satan and his motley crew to the Lake of Fire forever.

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Mon Aug 29, 2011 - 10:58:33
NO ONE is in the Lake of Fire, yet. Judgment Day has not taken place. It is important to know the Bible, but to think that Judgment Day has taken place and that the devil and his angels is already in the Lake of Fire is evidence of the lack of biblical understanding.

You're not in agreemment with the bible's timetable. Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this word cast out" (John 12:32). Jesus said that both the judgment of the world and of satan was "NOW."

Paul said that stan would be crushed under THEIR feet "SHORTLY" (Romans 16:20).

NOW MEANS "NOW" and SHORTLY means "SHORTLY."

thinker

Yes, Jesus said that. He has judged and put Satan in his place on the cross. Jesus did it. Now we must also defeat Satan in reality in our lives.

However, the Judgment Day has not occurred yet. That is the Day God finally dispatches Satan and his motley crew to the Lake of Fire forever.



More Futurist double talk. You say that Jesus put satan in his place but we've got to defeat him in reality. Where does the scripture say that saints of future ages must defeat satan in reality? Paul told the Roman Christians that satan would be CRUSHED under THEIR feet "SHORTLY" (Rom. 16:20). According to Strong's3# 4937 the word "suntribo"  means "to crush COMPLETELY." There is no biblical evidence whatsoever that satan operates in the world today. It is based in futurist fallacies.

You have already proved yourself unteachable. You said that the rising of many saints from their tombs when Jesus was risen was "not a resurrection of any kind." This shows that you will say anything to avoid facing the truth.

You are disobedient to the bible's timetable!

thinker


Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Mon Aug 29, 2011 - 11:02:44
NO ONE is in the Lake of Fire, yet. Judgment Day has not taken place. It is important to know the Bible, but to think that Judgment Day has taken place and that the devil and his angels is already in the Lake of Fire is evidence of the lack of biblical understanding.

You're not in agreemment with the bible's timetable. Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this word cast out" (John 12:32). Jesus said that both the judgment of the world and of satan was "NOW."

Paul said that stan would be crushed under THEIR feet "SHORTLY" (Romans 16:20).

NOW MEANS "NOW" and SHORTLY means "SHORTLY."

thinker

Yes, Jesus said that. He has judged and put Satan in his place on the cross. Jesus did it. Now we must also defeat Satan in reality in our lives.

However, the Judgment Day has not occurred yet. That is the Day God finally dispatches Satan and his motley crew to the Lake of Fire forever.



More Futurist double talk. You say that Jesus put satan in his place but we've got to defeat him in reality. Where does the scripture say that saints of future ages must defeat satan in reality? Paul told the Roman Christians that satan would be CRUSHED under THEIR feet "SHORTLY" (Rom. 16:20). According to Strong's3# 4937 the word "suntribo"  means "to crush COMPLETELY." There is no biblical evidence whatsoever that satan operates in the world today. It is based in futurist fallacies.

You have already proved yourself unteachable. You said that the rising of many saints from their tombs when Jesus was risen was "not a resurrection of any kind." This shows that you will say anything to avoid facing the truth.

You are disobedient to the bible's timetable!

thinker




No, it is from rightly dividing the word of Truth.

It is "shortly" now.

Satan works in the world today every day. I personally have ministered to demonic people and seen demons cast out. You cannot live in such denial!

As far as unteachable goes....I am entirely teachable of my Father as He places men and women of excellence in my life, who rightly divide the word of Truth. Being teachable to unknowns who spread nonsense is foolhardy.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Mon Aug 29, 2011 - 11:15:48
NO ONE is in the Lake of Fire, yet. Judgment Day has not taken place. It is important to know the Bible, but to think that Judgment Day has taken place and that the devil and his angels is already in the Lake of Fire is evidence of the lack of biblical understanding.

You're not in agreemment with the bible's timetable. Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this word cast out" (John 12:32). Jesus said that both the judgment of the world and of satan was "NOW."

Paul said that stan would be crushed under THEIR feet "SHORTLY" (Romans 16:20).

NOW MEANS "NOW" and SHORTLY means "SHORTLY."

thinker

Yes, Jesus said that. He has judged and put Satan in his place on the cross. Jesus did it. Now we must also defeat Satan in reality in our lives.

However, the Judgment Day has not occurred yet. That is the Day God finally dispatches Satan and his motley crew to the Lake of Fire forever.



More Futurist double talk. You say that Jesus put satan in his place but we've got to defeat him in reality. Where does the scripture say that saints of future ages must defeat satan in reality? Paul told the Roman Christians that satan would be CRUSHED under THEIR feet "SHORTLY" (Rom. 16:20). According to Strong's3# 4937 the word "suntribo"  means "to crush COMPLETELY." There is no biblical evidence whatsoever that satan operates in the world today. It is based in futurist fallacies.

You have already proved yourself unteachable. You said that the rising of many saints from their tombs when Jesus was risen was "not a resurrection of any kind." This shows that you will say anything to avoid facing the truth.

You are disobedient to the bible's timetable!

thinker




No, it is from rightly dividing the word of Truth.

[collor=red]It is "shortly" now. [/color]

Satan works in the world today every day. I personally have ministered to demonic people and seen demons cast out. You cannot live in such denial!

As far as unteachable goes....I am entirely teachable of my Father as He places men and women of excellence in my life, who rightly divide the word of Truth. Being teachable to unknowns who spread nonsense is foolhardy.

How can you say the crushing of satan is shortly "now" when Paul said it was shortly to the Roman Christians? He said that satan would be crushed completely under THEIR feet ""

Okay, so you first say that the many saints who were raised from the tombs with Jesus was "not a resurrection of any kind." Now you say that the crushing of satan which Paul said was "shortly" to the saints at Rome really means shortly "now." After another 2,000 years have passed another futurist will say shortly "now" too.

You should consider bowing out of this discussion because of the way you appear.

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Mon Aug 29, 2011 - 11:25:23
NO ONE is in the Lake of Fire, yet. Judgment Day has not taken place. It is important to know the Bible, but to think that Judgment Day has taken place and that the devil and his angels is already in the Lake of Fire is evidence of the lack of biblical understanding.

You're not in agreemment with the bible's timetable. Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this word cast out" (John 12:32). Jesus said that both the judgment of the world and of satan was "NOW."

Paul said that stan would be crushed under THEIR feet "SHORTLY" (Romans 16:20).

NOW MEANS "NOW" and SHORTLY means "SHORTLY."

thinker

Yes, Jesus said that. He has judged and put Satan in his place on the cross. Jesus did it. Now we must also defeat Satan in reality in our lives.

However, the Judgment Day has not occurred yet. That is the Day God finally dispatches Satan and his motley crew to the Lake of Fire forever.



More Futurist double talk. You say that Jesus put satan in his place but we've got to defeat him in reality. Where does the scripture say that saints of future ages must defeat satan in reality? Paul told the Roman Christians that satan would be CRUSHED under THEIR feet "SHORTLY" (Rom. 16:20). According to Strong's3# 4937 the word "suntribo"  means "to crush COMPLETELY." There is no biblical evidence whatsoever that satan operates in the world today. It is based in futurist fallacies.

You have already proved yourself unteachable. You said that the rising of many saints from their tombs when Jesus was risen was "not a resurrection of any kind." This shows that you will say anything to avoid facing the truth.

You are disobedient to the bible's timetable!

thinker




No, it is from rightly dividing the word of Truth.

[collor=red]It is "shortly" now. [/color]

Satan works in the world today every day. I personally have ministered to demonic people and seen demons cast out. You cannot live in such denial!

As far as unteachable goes....I am entirely teachable of my Father as He places men and women of excellence in my life, who rightly divide the word of Truth. Being teachable to unknowns who spread nonsense is foolhardy.

How can you say the crushing of satan is shortly "now" when Paul said it was shortly to the Roman Christians? He said that satan would be crushed completely under THEIR feet ""

Okay, so you first say that the many saints who were raised from the tombs with Jesus was "not a resurrection of any kind." Now you say that the crushing of satan which Paul said was "shortly" to the saints at Rome really means shortly "now." After another 2,000 years have passed another futurist will say shortly "now" too.

You should consider bowing out of this discussion because of the way you appear.

thinker

How am I appearing to you? Negative personal comments are only serving to prove that Preterist thinking is foolishness.

Take things into context...Paul was expressing troubles ahead for the church, which we need to heed today, also, what with today's proliferation of false teachers and smooth talkers abounding!

Romans 16:17-20
And now I make one more appeal, my dear brothers and sisters. Watch out for people who cause divisions and upset people’s faith by teaching things contrary to what you have been taught. Stay away from them. 18 Such people are not serving Christ our Lord; they are serving their own personal interests. By smooth talk and glowing words they deceive innocent people. 19 But everyone knows that you are obedient to the Lord. This makes me very happy. I want you to be wise in doing right and to stay innocent of any wrong. 20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. May the grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

Hebrews 10:12-13
But our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God’s right hand. There he waits until his enemies are humbled and made a footstool under his feet.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Mon Aug 29, 2011 - 17:54:24
Lively wrote:
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Take things into context...Paul was expressing troubles ahead for the church, which we need to heed today, also, what with today's proliferation of false teachers and smooth talkers abounding!

Romans 16:17-20
And now I make one more appeal, my dear brothers and sisters. Watch out for people who cause divisions and upset people’s faith by teaching things contrary to what you have been taught. Stay away from them. 18 Such people are not serving Christ our Lord; they are serving their own personal interests. By smooth talk and glowing words they deceive innocent people. 19 But everyone knows that you are obedient to the Lord. This makes me very happy. I want you to be wise in doing right and to stay innocent of any wrong. 20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. May the grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

This passage is speaking about YOU. Paul told them that God would crush satan under THEIR feet "SHORTLY" and you are teaching contrary to what he told THEM.

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Hebrews 10:12-13
But our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God’s right hand. There he waits until his enemies are humbled and made a footstool under his feet.

You left out verse 37 which says that He would come in a "very little while" and "would not delay." So His enemies were to be put under Him soon.

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For in just a very little while,

   “He who is coming will come and will not delay.

NIV

You say to take things in context but then cite verses in Hebrews 10 out of context. Verse 37 says that He would come in a "very little while" and that He "would not delay." Why do you deny the bible's own timetable?

Take things in context yourself!

thinker


Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Mon Aug 29, 2011 - 21:24:04
This passage is speaking about YOU. Paul told them that God would crush satan under THEIR feet "SHORTLY" and you are teaching contrary to what he told THEM.

ROFL! I laugh uproariously at the lies of Satan.

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You left out verse 37 which says that He would come in a "very little while" and "would not delay." So His enemies were to be put under Him soon.

Quote
For in just a very little while,

   “He who is coming will come and will not delay.

NIV

You say to take things in context but then cite verses in Hebrews 10 out of context. Verse 37 says that He would come in a "very little while" and that He "would not delay." Why do you deny the bible's own timetable?

Take things in context yourself!

thinker




ROFL! Jesus is coming very, very soon! We don't go by human time---we go by God's time.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 09:31:56
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ROFL! Jesus is coming very, very soon! We don't go by human time---we go by God's time.

 rofl rofl  eschatological "orthodoxy" has been saying  that for 2,000 years! Guess what... didn't happen?

That's because these are God's time statements, and they are literal:

Rev.1:1,
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

It's the events themselves that are described in figurative, prophetic, hyperbolic terms, and not God's clear time statements.

Many need to open their minds and read it (and many other verses) again until God shows you His time statements, and not man's!

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 09:38:11
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ROFL! Jesus is coming very, very soon! We don't go by human time---we go by God's time.

 rofl rofl  eschatological "orthodoxy" has been saying  that for 2,000 years! Guess what... didn't happen?

That's because these are God's time statements, and they are literal:

Rev.1:1,
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

It's the events themselves that are described in figurative, prophetic, hyperbolic terms, and not God's clear time statements.

Many need to open their minds and read it (and many other verses) again until God shows you His time statements, and not man's!



Yes, it didn't happen.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 15:57:18


Jesus said he would be returning "quickly", and he said that 2000 years ago.
So, basically, man-made eschatology makes Jesus a liar.

 Do we have any information as to when the writers of the New Testament foretold the return of Jesus? Actually, we have very good information. We have nearly precise information. There is scriptural evidence that those who wrote about Jesus intended for him to come back during the lifetimes of those who first followed him. That's right... in the First Century.

Sorry,  but I believe the Bible and I believe history! 
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 16:28:38


Jesus said he would be returning "quickly", and he said that 2000 years ago.
So, basically, man-made eschatology makes Jesus a liar.

 Do we have any information as to when the writers of the New Testament foretold the return of Jesus? Actually, we have very good information. We have nearly precise information. There is scriptural evidence that those who wrote about Jesus intended for him to come back during the lifetimes of those who first followed him. That's right... in the First Century.

Sorry,  but I believe the Bible and I believe history!  

Holy Spirit gives wisdom and understanding and causes us to recognize easily those who are believing various strange doctrines, deceived by the enemy. The devil is pretty clever, but Preterism isn't even clever.

Jesus has not returned or I would know about it, seeing as I am His kid!
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 19:29:22
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Holy Spirit gives wisdom and understanding and causes us to recognize easily those who are believing various strange doctrines, deceived by the enemy. The devil is pretty clever, but Preterism isn't even clever.

Jesus has not returned or I would know about it, seeing as I am His kid!

When I was a child, I spoke like a child........

Maybe it's time to mature in the faith?

Perhaps it's time to realize what the scripture really says about the Holy Spirit leading one into all truth (John 16:13) freeing people from the error of their own ways.

Next, believing in a literal "clever" devil is negative thinking. It gives the invisible negative influence power over one's life.  I reject a literal devil. I'm more than a conqueror in Christ Jesus, and the devil has nothing on me either, because of Him, who defeated the devil for me.(and for those who believe).

Finally,  Preterism is by far worth the full study.  God lead me to the knowledge and truth that Preterism brings. 

Hope deferred makes the heart sick~ Prov.13:12
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 19:44:10
Quote
Holy Spirit gives wisdom and understanding and causes us to recognize easily those who are believing various strange doctrines, deceived by the enemy. The devil is pretty clever, but Preterism isn't even clever.

Jesus has not returned or I would know about it, seeing as I am His kid!

When I was a child, I spoke like a child........

Maybe it's time to mature in the faith?

Perhaps it's time to realize what the scripture really says about the Holy Spirit leading one into all truth (John 16:13) freeing people from the error of their own ways.

Next, believing in a literal "clever" devil is negative thinking. It gives the invisible negative influence power over one's life.  I reject a literal devil. I'm more than a conqueror in Christ Jesus, and the devil has nothing on me either, because of Him, who defeated the devil for me.(and for those who believe).

Finally,  Preterism is by far worth the full study.  God lead me to the knowledge and truth that Preterism brings. 

Hope deferred makes the heart sick~ Prov.13:12


Dear Lehigh---I have dealt with you before elsewhere. We meet again...hello, there!


The enemy has no power over my life because I have been given  the authority of Jesus Christ and I use it. He blesses us with His discernment so that we rightly become wary of falsehood. Preterism is recognizable as a distinct falsehood from afar off. It's like Rudolf with his neon red nose.

I make daily declarations and one of them is this:

I uproariously laugh when I hear a lie from the devil---

Psalm 2:2-4
2 The earth’s rulers take their stand;
   the leaders scheme together
   against the LORD and
   against his anointed one.
    3 “Come!
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 20:21:08

Maybe a new hobby daily instead of making daily laughing declarations might be more profitable.  ::crackup::

You have not dealt with me before unless you're delusional thinking people who call  anything but that religious fictional doctrine  "from the devil"

I will post the beginning of Psalm 2.  I don't think you even know how to interpret the Psalm either!

Psa.2
The Messiah’s Triumph and Kingdom
 1 Why do the nations rage,
         And the people plot a vain thing?
 2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
         And the rulers take counsel together,
         Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
 3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
         And cast away Their cords from us.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 20:42:17

Maybe a new hobby daily instead of making daily laughing declarations might be more profitable.  ::crackup::

You have not dealt with me before unless you're delusional thinking people who call  anything but that religious fictional doctrine  "from the devil"


Oh, yes I have! (http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/winker.gif)

Quote
I will post the beginning of Psalm 2.  I don't think you even know how to interpret the Psalm either!

Psa.2
The Messiah’s Triumph and Kingdom
 1 Why do the nations rage,
         And the people plot a vain thing?
 2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
         And the rulers take counsel together,
         Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
 3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
         And cast away Their cords from us.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Tue Aug 30, 2011 - 20:46:36

Wow, some do need a new hobby (or job)  ::giggle::

Say hello to Satan for me!  ::giggle::


 ::sleepingsoundly::
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Wed Aug 31, 2011 - 15:45:03
Lively said:
Quote
ROFL! Jesus is coming very, very soon! We don't go by human time---we go by God's time.

Friends,

This is how the Futurists try to escape the CLEAR biblical timetable. They say, "We don't go by human time---we go by God's time." This implies that the thousand years in Revelation is not really a thousand years because God goes by "His own time." Peter said that a thousand years is as one day to the Lord. Therefore, the thousand years in Revelation 20 may be only one day or any time shorther than a thousand years.

God warned Israel against postponing the fulfillment of the prophecies:

Quote
21 And the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 22 “Son of man, what is this proverb that you people have about the land of Israel, which says, ‘The days are prolonged, and every vision fails’? 23 Tell them therefore, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “I will lay this proverb to rest, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Wed Aug 31, 2011 - 16:18:52
We aren't futurists. We are Christians who believe the word of God. the Lake of fire is sitting empty at the moment. After the first resurrection, which has yet to take place, Satan still has to be confined to the bottomless pit for a thousand years and be released to foment another uprising against the King. His eternal torment in the Lake of Fire is the end of him.

Preterists are fabulists who believe an unintelligent lie of the enemy---one that glows in not only in the dark but the light, too! LOL!



Revelation 20:7-10

The Defeat of Satan

 7 When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison. 8 He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. 9 And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God’s people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them.

 10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Wed Aug 31, 2011 - 16:26:32
We aren't futurists. We are Christians who believe the word of God.

How can you "believe" the word of God when you twist His words? Did Israel "believe" the word of God when God said that Ezekiel's visions would be fulfilled in THEIR days and they said, "No! The days are afar off?"

You say that God goes by "His own timing." Then let's throw out our bibles because we do not know what God means when He uses time words. Athiests who read this thread are having a field day.

thinker

Edited by Admin to remove rudeness which is a rules violation.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Wed Aug 31, 2011 - 16:33:25
We aren't futurists. We are Christians who believe the word of God.

How can you "believe" the word of God when you twist His words? Did Israel "believe" the word of God when God said that Ezekiel's visions would be fulfilled in THEIR days and they said, "No! The days are afar off?"

You say that God goes by "His own timing." Then let's throw out our bibles because we do not know what God means when He uses time words. Your faith is irrational and you are an embarassment to Christianity! Athiests who read this thread are having a field day.

thinker


Preterists are a fringe group of word-twisters. They don't believe the word, and miss the signs of the times. Atheists who read this thread will be getting contradictory ideas from Preterism, but they will be getting the truth from its refutation, praise God!
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 17:27:40
We aren't futurists. We are Christians who believe the word of God.

How can you "believe" the word of God when you twist His words? Did Israel "believe" the word of God when God said that Ezekiel's visions would be fulfilled in THEIR days and they said, "No! The days are afar off?"

You say that God goes by "His own timing." Then let's throw out our bibles because we do not know what God means when He uses time words. Your faith is irrational and you are an embarassment to Christianity! Athiests who read this thread are having a field day.

thinker


Preterists are a fringe group of word-twisters. They don't believe the word, and miss the signs of the times. Atheists who read this thread will be getting contradictory ideas from Preterism, but they will be getting the truth from its refutation, praise God!

Actually, atheists do not believe in the fiction of end times that  so-called Christians' "orthodoxy" has been spewing for thousands of years because, as I said before, none of those prophecies that "the end is near" ever comes true - and the world can plainly see the delusion, just like the 12th of Imam prophecy!  ::disco::

And atheists actually listen and befriend preterist Christians!

And if you're only preaching to the crowd, even Christians know that "faith without works is dead" (Jm 2:26)

Faith is NOT about 24/7 gossiping.  That is not a Christian virtue. It's not a virtue, period!

Christians should be an example to the world by their good works, not by gossiping and being childish backbiters to other Christians, especially in public!

It shows they are hypocritical and probably act worse than they do!

Paul specifically expounded on that concept and praised those who are more mature in the faith and in spiritual matters.

So do not display Christians as people of dead works to the world. Any one can gossip and promote end-time madness. It's a work of the flesh.





Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 17:37:13
We aren't futurists. We are Christians who believe the word of God.


How can you "believe" the word of God when you twist His words? Did Israel "believe" the word of God when God said that Ezekiel's visions would be fulfilled in THEIR days and they said, "No! The days are afar off?"

You say that God goes by "His own timing." Then let's throw out our bibles because we do not know what God means when He uses time words. Your faith is irrational and you are an embarassment to Christianity! Athiests who read this thread are having a field day.

thinker



Preterists are a fringe group of word-twisters. They don't believe the word, and miss the signs of the times. Atheists who read this thread will be getting contradictory ideas from Preterism, but they will be getting the truth from its refutation, praise God!


Actually, atheists do not believe in the fiction of end times that  so-called Christians' "orthodoxy" has been spewing for thousands of years because, as I said before, none of those prophecies that "the end is near" ever comes true - and the world can plainly see the delusion, just like the 12th of Imam prophecy!  ::disco::


Actually, who cares? Atheists are missing everything in the first place.

Quote
And atheists actually listen and befriend preterist Christians!


They are friends to normal Christians, too.

Quote
And if you're only preaching to the crowd, even Christians know that "faith without works is dead" (Jm 2:26)


Yes.

Quote
Faith is NOT about 24/7 gossiping.  That is not a Christian virtue. It's not a virtue, period!


And the connection to the topic here, is...?

Quote
Christians should be an example to the world by their good works, not by gossiping and being childish backbiters to other Christians, especially in public!


Yeah!

Quote
It shows they are hypocritical and probably act worse than they do!


Woohooo!

Quote
Paul specifically expounded on that concept and praised those who are more mature in the faith and in spiritual matters.


Amen!

Quote
So do not display Christians as people of dead works to the world. Any one can gossip and promote end-time madness. It's a work of the flesh.


Who is doing that, may I ask?

(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/Exclamations/Repent2.jpg)






Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: FireSword on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 17:41:52
TO ALL,

The thousands of years were fulfilled during the old testament period when satan was bound. John's vision in Revelation 20 took him BACK IN TIME. John said that he saw the "ANCIENT serpent" in a great chain and cast into the abyss. John saw the "ANCIENT serpent" cast into the abyss. The proof that satan was bound during the ot period is that there was no satanic activity during the old testament period.

Then John's vision takes him to the "little season" in His present time. The "little season" was that period of time between Christ's first and second comings. This is when satan was loosed. This is the very first time we see satanic activity since the temptation in the garden. There was no satanic activity after the garden incident UNTIL Christ appeared. The absence of ALL satanic activity before Christ proves that satan was bound until Christ's first coming.

Thus the first saints were in the "little season" but in the end of it. We know this to be true because satan's judgment was NEAR TO THEM. Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this world cast out" (John 12:32). Paul said that satan would be "SHORTLY" dashed to pieces under the feet of the first Christians (Rom. 16:20). So satan was dashed to pieces under THEIR feet and subsequently cast into the lake of fire.

So here is the true biblical chronology:

1. Satan bound around the time he was cursed in the garden and throughout the old testament period (no satanic activity).

2. He was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first coming and His second coming in ad70 (all kinds of satanic activity during this time).

3. He was judged in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire (mankind is the sole source of all evil now).

4. We are in the new earth which is the eternal new covenant age (The first heaven and earth were the old covenant, Deuteronomy chaps 30-32. The physical heaven and earth has no prophetic relevance).

thinker


What about the sorcery in Egypt?
frogs.

What about the woman who satan has bound all these years, during christs coming

What about Job who Satan destroyed his life?

What about king David who needed sweet music to keep away the demons?

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 19:06:08
Quote
Actually, who cares? Atheists are missing everything in the first place.
I don't doubt anyone feels the Christian love from that statement. Some atheists are more altruistic than ones who just call themselves "Christian."

Quote
They are friends to normal Christians, too.
A "normal" Christian is not one in words only but in deeds.
 Anyone can sit back in life and just judge others,no matter what religion they are. When will you learn that God is the judge of who and what is good or evil?
Quote
And if you're only preaching to the crowd, even Christians know that "faith without works is dead" (Jm 2:26)
(I should have said the choir- and I am part of the choir)
Quote
Yes.
And  24/7 gossiping is a work?  ::pondering::

The childish cartoons you post sure get boring.  Seeing a silly girl again.   Maybe I do know you!

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 20:09:39

I don't doubt anyone feels the Christian love from that statement. Some atheists are more altruistic than ones who just call themselves "Christian."


Altruism doesn't gain anybody the Kingdom. Atheists are all wrong.


Quote
A "normal" Christian is not one in words only but in deeds.
 Anyone can sit back in life and just judge others,no matter what religion they are. When will you learn that God is the judge of who and what is good or evil?


As righteous ones, we have the ability to judge what is of God and what isn't, what is good and what is evil. That's a basic.

Quote
And if you're only preaching to the crowd, even Christians know that "faith without works is dead" (Jm 2:26) (I should have said the choir- and I am part of the choir)


What choir is that??

Quote
The childish cartoons you post sure get boring.  Seeing a silly girl again.   Maybe I do know you!


Most love them. Your boredom isn't my responsibility. Get a hobby.

(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/Artistic/paintbynumbers.png)


Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 21:37:41

No, silly one. The other forum wasn't so dispensationalism friendly, was it?  rofl

The fundamentalist Christian thinks that satan is real and can have real power over you if you disobey God's word.
Well, that doesn't make sense if you don't know what God's word is in the first place (ie: atheist or non-Christian)

But if a Christian believes that the kingdom has come (along time now since Jesus cast out demons and told the Pharisees that if He cast out demons in the name of God, you know that the kingdom of God has come upon "you")
So if the kingdom came and Christ defeated sin and death (satan)  what weak faith is it that says satan is still around to create spiritual warfare on them?

The "spiritual warfare" is what we perceive from an unbeliever.  This is so because "we" identify the darkness as "satan"  But the influence of the darkness is not the same as a real demonic being.
That cartoon character is something fundamentalists have created to torture themselves with.
Satan incarnate is in the lake of fire.


Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 21:46:40

No, silly one. The other forum wasn't so dispensationalism friendly, was it?  rofl

What are you on about?

Quote
The fundamentalist Christian thinks that satan is real and can have real power over you if you disobey God's word.
Well, that doesn't make sense if you don't know what God's word is in the first place (ie: atheist or non-Christian)


Satan has no power over the believer if we don't allow him it. Christians whoa re weak, or unknowledgeable or apostate know that he is someone to contend with.

Quote
But if a Christian believes that the kingdom has come (along time now since Jesus cast out demons and told the Pharisees that if He cast out demons in the name of God, you know that the kingdom of God has come upon "you")
So if the kingdom came and Christ defeated sin and death (satan)  what weak faith is it that says satan is still around to create spiritual warfare on them?

No Christian worth his mettle believes that the Kingdom has come yet. I have cast out demons. It is weak and impoverished faith that ignores the devil, and becomes a sitting duck for his lies, especially one called  Preterism.

Quote
The "spiritual warfare" is what we perceive from an unbeliever.  This is so because "we" identify the darkness as "satan"  But the influence of the darkness is not the same as a real demonic being.
That cartoon character is something fundamentalists have created to torture themselves with.
Satan incarnate is in the lake of fire.

No, he is here, lying all over the place.

1 Peter 5:8-11
Keep awake! Watch at all times. The devil is working against you. He is walking around like a hungry lion with his mouth open. He is looking for someone to eat. Stand against him and be strong in your faith. Remember, other Christians over all the world are suffering the same as you are. After you have suffered for awhile, God Himself will make you perfect. He will keep you in the right way. He will give you strength. He is the God of all loving-favor and has called you through Christ Jesus to share His shining-greatness forever. God has power over all things forever. Let it be so.



Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 21:53:25

 No thanks.  I'll sleep at night.

 And all God's little children say " and now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep. If I should die before I awake, I pray the Lord my soul to take."

 It's simple, little children.  Don't believe the rest.   ::sleepingsoundly::

 
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: FireSword on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 21:58:51

No, silly one. The other forum wasn't so dispensationalism friendly, was it?  rofl

The fundamentalist Christian thinks that satan is real and can have real power over you if you disobey God's word.
Well, that doesn't make sense if you don't know what God's word is in the first place (ie: atheist or non-Christian)

But if a Christian believes that the kingdom has come (along time now since Jesus cast out demons and told the Pharisees that if He cast out demons in the name of God, you know that the kingdom of God has come upon "you")
So if the kingdom came and Christ defeated sin and death (satan)  what weak faith is it that says satan is still around to create spiritual warfare on them?

The "spiritual warfare" is what we perceive from an unbeliever.  This is so because "we" identify the darkness as "satan"  But the influence of the darkness is not the same as a real demonic being.
That cartoon character is something fundamentalists have created to torture themselves with.
Satan incarnate is in the lake of fire.





Preterism does give a sense of peace. But I am concerned about the long term. What kind of future is in store for preterism?

Has God abandoned us to our own will?

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 22:02:35

 No thanks.  I'll sleep at night.

 And all God's little children say " and now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep. If I should die before I awake, I pray the Lord my soul to take."

 It's simple, little children.  Don't believe the rest.   ::sleepingsoundly::

 


Preterists sleep away their whole lives, spiritually. They can't possibly read the Bible, and apply it to their lives for they believe that this generation is not evil, for Satan is already dispatched to the Lake of Fire, that Judgment has already occurred, yet sin and sinners abound. We have all missed Jesus, folks!!

Talk about rose-coloured glasses! There's been a glut!

(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/Debate/roseglasses2.jpg)

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Sun Sep 04, 2011 - 22:03:45

No, silly one. The other forum wasn't so dispensationalism friendly, was it?  rofl

The fundamentalist Christian thinks that satan is real and can have real power over you if you disobey God's word.
Well, that doesn't make sense if you don't know what God's word is in the first place (ie: atheist or non-Christian)

But if a Christian believes that the kingdom has come (along time now since Jesus cast out demons and told the Pharisees that if He cast out demons in the name of God, you know that the kingdom of God has come upon "you")
So if the kingdom came and Christ defeated sin and death (satan)  what weak faith is it that says satan is still around to create spiritual warfare on them?

The "spiritual warfare" is what we perceive from an unbeliever.  This is so because "we" identify the darkness as "satan"  But the influence of the darkness is not the same as a real demonic being.
That cartoon character is something fundamentalists have created to torture themselves with.
Satan incarnate is in the lake of fire.





Preterism does give a sense of peace. But I am concerned about the long term. What kind of future is in store for preterism?

Has God abandoned us to our own will?



As if a man-made false system of belief gives any peace at all. It would have to be a false peace. You have just described what a delusion does.

Only the Prince of Peace gives real peace.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 14:51:19

 No thanks.  I'll sleep at night.

 And all God's little children say " and now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep. If I should die before I awake, I pray the Lord my soul to take."

 It's simple, little children.  Don't believe the rest.   ::sleepingsoundly::

 


Preterists sleep away their whole lives, spiritually. They can't possibly read the Bible, and apply it to their lives for they believe that this generation is not evil, for Satan is already dispatched to the Lake of Fire, that Judgment has already occurred, yet sin and sinners abound. We have all missed Jesus, folks!!

Talk about rose-coloured glasses! There's been a glut!

([url]http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/Debate/roseglasses2.jpg[/url])



I have no idea WHAT kingdom you are living in. I can only attest to which kingdom I am a part of.
The carnal Christian does not know the things of the Spirit.  Someone who physically just sleeps through life and just has a "hobby" of self-righteous posting is a carnal Christian. There, I've judged rightly that sin may be revealed.
And walking in the Spirit and not the flesh has nothing to do with one's eschatological pov either.
You may think you have cast out demons, but that is just God's way today of allowing His healing powers to occur for His glory. Such "demons" today are usually mental illnesses, or "demons of the mind."
Jesus conquered the REIGN of sin over us, not the EXISTENCE of sin. Sin will always exist (Isaiah 65:20, Matthew 12:32, Revelation 22:15), but it no longer is master over us. The Last Enemy (spiritual death, condemnation, or separation from God's fellowship), which is the result of Sin's reign over us, has been conquered. We now have access to the presence of God. Even though we may still sin, it now can no longer hold us in its web. Christ has set us free. Death and Hades have been done away with.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 14:54:39
Living a life of denial of spiritual truth found in the word that a Christian should easily be able to discern, and then setting about purposely to teach the false doctrine of Preterism is a waste and not Kingdom living. It is opposed to the Kingdom.

Christians worth their salt need to stand against it.

Count on it.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 15:13:56
Quote
Preterism does give a sense of peace. But I am concerned about the long term. What kind of future is in store for preterism?

Has God abandoned us to our own will?

Do you mean the world in general, the church, or the kingdom when you say "has God abandoned us to our own will?"
The answer to your first question is that full Preterism is has become a grassroots movement. Many former "futurists" are seeing the truth in the scriptures with new eyes and I believe God is well pleased about it.
And  about God abandoning "us" - I don't understand that. The New Jerusalem kingdom has it's doors open 24/7 for anyone who thirsts to come. (Rev.22:17) So, I do not see why His peace would ever end or cease to be offered to all.
And also, I'm not totally comfortable using the word "church" in reference to the Kingdom of God today. The word "church" just might refer to the "calling-out" process of the transitional period from 30-70 AD when Christ was building His Kingdom. The Kingdom is the repository of all those who were "called out" of the dominion of darkness. The Kingdom of Christ is here now. We enjoy all the spiritual blessings that were promised in the prophets. Since the Kingdom is here now in its fullness, we must live accordingly. What this means is that we live spiritual lives, governed by the law of the spirit.

I also believe there is a long future ahead of us on this planet. I do not believe it is just about over. The sun has many millions of years left to burn. We have only just begun to achieve the purposes for which God planted us here.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 15:19:28
Quote
Preterism does give a sense of peace. But I am concerned about the long term. What kind of future is in store for preterism?

Has God abandoned us to our own will?

Do you mean the world in general, the church, or the kingdom when you say "has God abandoned us to our own will?"
The answer to your first question is that full Preterism is has become a grassroots movement. Many former "futurists" are seeing the truth in the scriptures with new eyes and I believe God is well pleased about it.

Many vulnerable and unknowledgeable believers are being deceived by it and God is not pleased.


Quote
And  about God abandoning "us" - I don't understand that. The New Jerusalem kingdom has it's doors open 24/7 for anyone who thirsts to come. (Rev.22:17) So, I do not see why His peace would ever end or cease to be offered to all.
And also, I'm not totally comfortable using the word "church" in reference to the Kingdom of God today. The word "church" just might refer to the "calling-out" process of the transitional period from 30-70 AD when Christ was building His Kingdom.

"When Christ WAS building the Kingdom"?? He is still building His Kingdom---the Church.


Quote
The Kingdom is the repository of all those who were "called out" of the dominion of darkness. The Kingdom of Christ is here now. We enjoy all the spiritual blessings that were promised in the prophets. Since the Kingdom is here now in its fullness, we must live accordingly. What this means is that we live spiritual lives, governed by the law of the spirit.

I also believe there is a long future ahead of us on this planet. I do not believe it is just about over. The sun has many millions of years left to burn. We have only just begun to achieve the purposes for which God planted us here.

We've achieved nothing. It's all about what Jesus achieves in and through His own. Jesus will come and establish His Millennial Kingdom where we will assist in the Earth's restoration. Our purpose for being here is to serve God. We have only cracked the surface. The Church of Jesus Christ could be more of an influence in the world of she wasn't so fractured by false teachers, and complacent Christians who are merely satisfied with their salvation and not concerned with the call of Christ on their lives.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 17:11:13
Quote
We've achieved nothing. It's all about what Jesus achieves in and through His own. Jesus will come and establish His Millennial Kingdom where we will assist in the Earth's restoration. Our purpose for being here is to serve God. We have only cracked the surface. The Church of Jesus Christ could be more of an influence in the world of she wasn't so fractured by false teachers, and complacent Christians who are merely satisfied with their salvation and not concerned with the call of Christ on their lives.

I think you'd better speak for yourself.

Your so-called belief in a literal "millennium" kingdom should not be an excuse not to behave like a Christian now.
Yes, we are here to serve and worship God, but there's another commandment which you seem to overlook.
Quote
"Christians who are merely satisfied with their salvation and not concerned with the call of Christ in their lives."
Don't be void of love, and mock God's salvation!
Luke 1:76-79,
76 “ And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest;
      For you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,
       77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people
      By the remission of their sins,
       78 Through the tender mercy of our God,
      With which the Dayspring from on high has visited[a] us;
       79 To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death,
      To guide our feet into the way of peace.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 18:40:38
Quote
We've achieved nothing. It's all about what Jesus achieves in and through His own. Jesus will come and establish His Millennial Kingdom where we will assist in the Earth's restoration. Our purpose for being here is to serve God. We have only cracked the surface. The Church of Jesus Christ could be more of an influence in the world of she wasn't so fractured by false teachers, and complacent Christians who are merely satisfied with their salvation and not concerned with the call of Christ on their lives.

I think you'd better speak for yourself.

Your so-called belief in a literal "millennium" kingdom should not be an excuse not to behave like a Christian now.
Yes, we are here to serve and worship God, but there's another commandment which you seem to overlook.
Quote
"Christians who are merely satisfied with their salvation and not concerned with the call of Christ in their lives."
Don't be void of love, and mock God's salvation!
Luke 1:76-79,
76 “ And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest;
      For you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,
       77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people
      By the remission of their sins,
       78 Through the tender mercy of our God,
      With which the Dayspring from on high has visited[a] us;
       79 To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death,
      To guide our feet into the way of peace.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 18:49:03
The trilogy of Psalm 22, 23, and 24 gives a panoramic view of Christ. Psalm 22 speaks of His work as the Good Shepherd dying on the cross for our sins (John 10:11). Psalm 23 speaks of His present care for His own as the Great Shepherd (Heb. 13:20), interceding for them in heaven. Psalm 24 describes Christ as the King of Glory, the Chief Shepherd (1 Peter 5:4), who will enter the gates of Jerusalem.

Another major revelation is given in Psalm 72, revealing Christ’s reign over the whole earth. After describing how He will judge the people, defend the afflicted, and deliver the righteous, the psalm continues:

In his days the righteous will flourish; prosperity will abound till the moon is no more. He will rule from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth. The desert tribes will bow before him and his enemies will lick the dust. The kings of Tarshish and of distant shores will bring tribute to him; the kings of Sheba and Seba will present him gifts. All kings will bow down to him and all nations will serve him (Ps. 72:7-11).

The Psalm concludes by stating that all nations will be blessed through Him and that the whole earth will be filled with His glory (Ps. 72:17-19).

Another major passage dealing with Christ in His second coming is found in Isaiah 11, where the righteous reign of Christ and the blessings of the millennial kingdom are revealed.

Daniel 7:13-14 states that the Second Coming marks the termination of the times of the Gentiles and the beginning of the reign of God’s kingdom on earth:

In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

This passage, as all others on the second coming of Christ, makes clear that it refers to an event not yet fulfilled that will consummate the plan of God for the ages.

Zechariah 2:10-11 also anticipates the coming of the Lord and His residence in the earth, “‘Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,’ declares the Lord. ‘Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you.’
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 20:21:03
Quote
This prophecy makes clear that Christ has not come in His second coming because the Mount of Olives is still intact, awaiting the coming of Christ.
  rofl

That's what happens to one's imagination when they read God's timing figuratively and the descriptions of the apocalyptic events literally!

It's like being the tail when others are the head!   ::sleepingsoundly::



Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 20:24:26
Quote
This prophecy makes clear that Christ has not come in His second coming because the Mount of Olives is still intact, awaiting the coming of Christ.
 rofl

That's what happens to one's imagination when they read God's timing figuratively and the descriptions of the apocalyptic events literally!

It's like being the tail when others are the head!   ::sleepingsoundly::





The prophetic word of God states that the Mount of Olives splits down the middle. There is a reason for it. God is no liar. Laughing in mockery at His word is a sin.

Read the word. Believe Him.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Wednesday on Mon Sep 05, 2011 - 22:35:54

I don't doubt anyone feels the Christian love from that statement. Some atheists are more altruistic than ones who just call themselves "Christian."


Altruism doesn't gain anybody the Kingdom. Atheists are all wrong.


Quote
A "normal" Christian is not one in words only but in deeds.
 Anyone can sit back in life and just judge others,no matter what religion they are. When will you learn that God is the judge of who and what is good or evil?


As righteous ones, we have the ability to judge what is of God and what isn't, what is good and what is evil. That's a basic.

Quote
And if you're only preaching to the crowd, even Christians know that "faith without works is dead" (Jm 2:26)
(I should have said the choir- and I am part of the choir)


What choir is that??

Quote
The childish cartoons you post sure get boring.  Seeing a silly girl again.   Maybe I do know you!


Most love them. Your boredom isn't my responsibility. Get a hobby.

(http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee267/Floatingaxe/Artistic/paintbynumbers.png)

[/quote]


 ::giggle::
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Tue Sep 06, 2011 - 18:11:57
Quote
This prophecy makes clear that Christ has not come in His second coming because the Mount of Olives is still intact, awaiting the coming of Christ.
 rofl

That's what happens to one's imagination when they read God's timing figuratively and the descriptions of the apocalyptic events literally!

It's like being the tail when others are the head!   ::sleepingsoundly::





The prophetic word of God states that the Mount of Olives splits down the middle. There is a reason for it. God is no liar. Laughing in mockery at His word is a sin.

Read the word. Believe Him.

I see you had to leave.  I guess what comes around goes around. We do reap what we sow.
 And I wasn't mocking His words, obviously.  
Maybe you'll demonstrate some fruits of the Spirit in your next forum.  I hope I don't have to recognize you by the use of the NLT and those silly snippy cartoons, because I do know now that you change your user name!

Remember that "flesh and blood" does not inherit the kingdom of God. That's why we are to live according to the spirit and not the flesh.

Nothing else matters but the new creation that we are. (Gal.6:11)

Satan is a campfire marshmellow!
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 11:47:33
Lively said:
Quote
Both the OT and the NT speak of a true Millennial Kingdom with Christ on the throne.

The old testament says NOTHING about a millennial kingdom. It says EVERYWHERE that the kingdom is ETERNAL. And Revelation says "millenniums" (plural). The millenniums were the whole old testament period. The "little season" was the period between Christ's first and second comings. They were near the end of the little season because Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment upon this world. NOW is the prince of this world CAST OUT." Paul said that satan would be crushed under THEIR feet "SHORTLY."

We are in the new heavens and earth which is the eternal gospel age. In the new earth people are invited to come and take of the water of life freely. So the gospel is preached in the new earth.

Lively speaks myths and not the word of God.

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Thu Sep 08, 2011 - 12:08:38
Quote
This prophecy makes clear that Christ has not come in His second coming because the Mount of Olives is still intact, awaiting the coming of Christ.

I have already disproved this theory. Christ is not the one who was to descend to the Mt. of Olives. It was Jehovah who would descend to the Mt. and Christ is clearly distinguished from Jehovah in 13:7.

The prophecy says NOTHING about the Mt. of Olives being split in two. The literal Hebrew says "a great ravine" which can have only a preterite reference to a geological fault. This was fulfilled and the proof is in the earthquake that occurred on the day Jesus was crucified.

It's kinda like the sun being darkened and the moon being turned into blood. This was reference to eclipses which the ancients described according to how eclipses appeared to them. One of these eclipses occurred on the day of Pentecost in accordance with Joel's prophecy.

Are there any sane Christians left?


thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: blu on Sun Sep 18, 2011 - 14:52:53
TO ALL,
                       THINK AGAIN!!
The thousands of years were fulfilled during the old testament period when satan was bound. John's vision in Revelation 20 took him BACK IN TIME. John said that he saw the "ANCIENT serpent" in a great chain and cast into the abyss. John saw the "ANCIENT serpent" cast into the abyss. The proof that satan was bound during the ot period is that there was no satanic activity during the old testament period.

Then John's vision takes him to the "little season" in His present time. The "little season" was that period of time between Christ's first and second comings. This is when satan was loosed. This is the very first time we see satanic activity since the temptation in the garden. There was no satanic activity after the garden incident UNTIL Christ appeared. The absence of ALL satanic activity before Christ proves that satan was bound until Christ's first coming.

Thus the first saints were in the "little season" but in the end of it. We know this to be true because satan's judgment was NEAR TO THEM. Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this world cast out" (John 12:32). Paul said that satan would be "SHORTLY" dashed to pieces under the feet of the first Christians (Rom. 16:20). So satan was dashed to pieces under THEIR feet and subsequently cast into the lake of fire.

So here is the true biblical chronology:

1. Satan bound around the time he was cursed in the garden and throughout the old testament period (no satanic activity).
Who then influenced Cain to Killed Abel?
2. He was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first coming and His second coming in ad70 (all kinds of satanic activity during this time).
In A.D. 33 Satan was cast out of heaven when Christ won the victory over him.
3. He was judged in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire (mankind is the sole source of all evil now).
A.D. 70 was not anything significant in what the bible is given to us for, it is the gospel of salvation. They were destroyed not because God willed it or predicted it. the scripture when there will not be on stone left upon another does not pertain to A.D. 70 because much of the buildings walls still stand today.
4. We are in the new earth which is the eternal new covenant age (The first heaven and earth were the old covenant, Deuteronomy chaps 30-32. The physical heaven and earth has no prophetic relevance).
If we are in the new heaven and earth, then why are there still tears in our eyes?[/b]
thinker
Last but not least, Satan was the 3rd enemy to be cast into the lake of fire, right after the false prophet and the beast, then comes death and hell. so if there are still false ministers/false prophets such as yourself themn how can Satan be in the lake of fire while you are still here.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Sun Sep 18, 2011 - 20:10:46

I really think you should show some respect  and Biblical support for your disagreement rather than bigoted tantrums against Preterist Christians.

The Resurrection (ours) was and is a spiritual reality. 






Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Sun Sep 18, 2011 - 20:25:35
Quote
This prophecy makes clear that Christ has not come in His second coming because the Mount of Olives is still intact, awaiting the coming of Christ.
 rofl

That's what happens to one's imagination when they read God's timing figuratively and the descriptions of the apocalyptic events literally!

It's like being the tail when others are the head!   ::sleepingsoundly::





The prophetic word of God states that the Mount of Olives splits down the middle. There is a reason for it. God is no liar. Laughing in mockery at His word is a sin.

Read the word. Believe Him.

I see you had to leave.  I guess what comes around goes around. We do reap what we sow.
 And I wasn't mocking His words, obviously.  
Maybe you'll demonstrate some fruits of the Spirit in your next forum.  I hope I don't have to recognize you by the use of the NLT and those silly snippy cartoons, because I do know now that you change your user name!

Remember that "flesh and blood" does not inherit the kingdom of God. That's why we are to live according to the spirit and not the flesh.

Nothing else matters but the new creation that we are. (Gal.6:11)

Satan is a campfire marshmellow!

I never had to leave. Show some respect, yourself.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Mon Sep 19, 2011 - 20:42:55
thinker said:
Quote
The old testament says NOTHING about a millennial kingdom. It says EVERYWHERE that the kingdom is ETERNAL.

How simple is that to understand!
The millennium kingdom is a myth,  even a child can understand that!

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Debrah on Thu Sep 22, 2011 - 22:02:41
Satan and his evil spirits are alive and well, ask those who have been possessed by them, or oppressed or haunted by evil spirits.

I just finished the book titled the "Rite", written by a priest who did not believe Satan was still around until he received the call from the Vatican to train more priest to be exorcist, for demonic possession is on the rise, and what he witnessed convinced him Satan is very much still roaming and devouring on this earth.

this is not a laughing matter.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lively Stone on Thu Sep 22, 2011 - 22:35:37
thinker said:
Quote
The old testament says NOTHING about a millennial kingdom. It says EVERYWHERE that the kingdom is ETERNAL.

How simple is that to understand!
The millennium kingdom is a myth,  even a child can understand that!



It is a spiritual 'child' who believes what is plainly described in Scripture is a myth. There are no myths in Scripture. Perhaps Preterism appeals to the simplistic. However, there is real meat in the word for those who are mature and desire good, solid spiritual food.


Colossians 2:8
Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.

Good warning, Paul & Timothy! Spiritual powers refer to Satan and His powers and principalities.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Mon Sep 26, 2011 - 17:41:52
Satan and his evil spirits are alive and well, ask those who have been possessed by them, or oppressed or haunted by evil spirits.

I just finished the book titled the "Rite", written by a priest who did not believe Satan was still around until he received the call from the Vatican to train more priest to be exorcist, for demonic possession is on the rise, and what he witnessed convinced him Satan is very much still roaming and devouring on this earth.

this is not a laughing matter.

Sorry to hear you believe in Satan and literal evil spirits haunting people!

I believe what God prophesied He would do with those unclean spirits during the first century AD. He would make them depart from the land. (Zech.13) 

Also. it is in the past, so you shouldn't worry about satan or evil spirits.
Gal.1:3-5,
To the churches of Galatia:

3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Rom.16:20,
20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.


I'm not even an extreme "sola Scripture" either, but I certainly can understand the Spirit's time statements!


Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Fri Dec 09, 2011 - 16:04:29
Bumped for the Zionists. Please read op and subsequent posts and reply.

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Thu Jan 12, 2012 - 15:38:20
Thread bumped for the Futurists. Please see posts 1-6 at least.

thinker

(http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr315/rockahh/Baltimore_Ravens.jpg)

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Thu Jan 12, 2012 - 18:54:56
thinker said:
Quote
The old testament says NOTHING about a millennial kingdom. It says EVERYWHERE that the kingdom is ETERNAL.

How simple is that to understand!
The millennium kingdom is a myth,  even a child can understand that!



It is a spiritual 'child' who believes what is plainly described in Scripture is a myth. There are no myths in Scripture. Perhaps Preterism appeals to the simplistic. However, there is real meat in the word for those who are mature and desire good, solid spiritual food.


Colossians 2:8
Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.

Good warning, Paul & Timothy! Spiritual powers refer to Satan and His powers and principalities.
I just  envisioned you desiring meat and ripping apart the gospel with your teeth too.  ::fit::

Good warning St. Paul -  
Except LivelyStone cannot discern your timing of that evil age when you said "this" evil age (Eph.6:12)
Nor can she discern the time when you wrote Gal.1:3,4  To the churches of Galatia:

3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Linker on Thu Jan 12, 2012 - 19:04:20
The preterist says that Satan is in the lake of fire .... problem ..... they have no proof of this fairy story

The scriptures tell a very different truth

The preterist has been blinded by the devil himself and they are preaching exactly what he wants people to believe .... that he is no longer a threat ..... a clever dude indeed

He loves the preterist who is actually his dupe

Might as well say that Jesus Christ has left His universe .... never to return

.... get it?

Who sings this song? ..... and Satan is the conductor
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Thu Jan 12, 2012 - 19:33:44
The preterist says that Satan is in the lake of fire .... problem ..... they have no proof of this fairy story

The scriptures tell a very different truth

The preterist has been blinded by the devil himself and they are preaching exactly what he wants people to believe .... that he is no longer a threat ..... a clever dude indeed

He loves the preterist who is actually his dupe

Preterists have investigated all the other eschatological systems of interpretation.

Do you think for one second that we have not?

And you too can quiet your mind long enough to discover better answers.

Preterists don't claim to know the future. Although I know I am positive and hopeful for good things.
But it seems there are some who are psychics when it comes to what only God really knows in these modern times.
 

Satan is not the source of all evil today.  We are.  We use the term "Satan" as an expression only because we know that he/it represented sin, evil and spiritual death.

 
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Linker on Thu Jan 12, 2012 - 19:54:46
Satan is not the only source of evil little Le .... for it takes two to tango

I already know that you have been blinded by the devil's dupes of preterism .... this is clearly evident to me

Satan is overjoyed by your ignorance and deliberate attempt to accommodate his hiding


Here is a parable for you: [Jesus spoke in parables to the Pharisees]

Little red riding hood said, "my what big teeth you have"

.... and the wolf said "the better to eat you with my dear"


If you ride on Satan's back he will carry you to your own destruction .... better jump off now

Time is of the essence for you ............. your clock is ticking
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Merryone on Thu Jan 12, 2012 - 19:56:07
thinker said:
Quote
The old testament says NOTHING about a millennial kingdom. It says EVERYWHERE that the kingdom is ETERNAL.

How simple is that to understand!
The millennium kingdom is a myth,  even a child can understand that!



It is a spiritual 'child' who believes what is plainly described in Scripture is a myth. There are no myths in Scripture. Perhaps Preterism appeals to the simplistic. However, there is real meat in the word for those who are mature and desire good, solid spiritual food.


Colossians 2:8
Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ.

Good warning, Paul & Timothy! Spiritual powers refer to Satan and His powers and principalities.
I just  envisioned you desiring meat and ripping apart the gospel with your teeth too.  ::fit::

Good warning St. Paul -  
Except LivelyStone cannot discern your timing of that evil age when you said "this" evil age (Eph.6:12)
Nor can she discern the time when you wrote Gal.1:3,4  To the churches of Galatia:

3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

What a vicious tongue.



For the Scriptures say,

   “If you want to enjoy life
      and see many happy days,
   keep your tongue from speaking evil
      and your lips from telling lies.
1 Peter 3:10
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Linker on Thu Jan 12, 2012 - 20:04:46
"I just  envisioned you desiring meat and ripping apart the gospel with your teeth too"


Most cultists claim false visions

..... and the wolf said to little Le?

Obviously a misinterpretation above .... the wolf has deceived you .... his intent is different for you and he has you doing the very thing that you accuse

Satan is a trickster .... a wolf in sheep's clothing 
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Thu Jan 12, 2012 - 20:56:48
"I just  envisioned you desiring meat and ripping apart the gospel with your teeth too"


Most cultists claim false visions

..... and the wolf said to little Le?

Obviously a misinterpretation above .... the wolf has deceived you .... his intent is different for you and he has you doing the very thing that you accuse

Satan is a trickster .... a wolf in sheep's clothing 

You get nowhere fast arguing.  Just embarrassing yourself changing the topic.

Go back to the O.P. and read its content.  We are debating a topic, with Scriptural proofs of the timing for the events they name.

That's what discussing a thread topic is about. 




Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Linker on Thu Jan 12, 2012 - 23:00:16
"I just  envisioned you desiring meat and ripping apart the gospel with your teeth too"


I am addressing the one who made the above statement

Sometimes it is necessary to respond to those who make foolish statements on a christian message board

This keeps radicals in check and exposes them for others who look on

Teaching and witnessing for the Lord's purposes is serious business ..... a matter of life and death

.... but there are some who do nothing but fly in to deliberately bring argumentation and cause confusion

I see you as one with this ambition and you need to be evaluated
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: chosenone on Thu Jan 12, 2012 - 23:53:18
I just cant believe that anyone could believe that Satan and the evil spirits arent still around us today. Who do think that Jesus was battling when he was on earth? What was he casting out from people? Believe me, Satan and the evil spirits are alive and kicking and to deny this is putting your head in the sand and ignoring all of the New testament.
I have seen loads and loads of evidence of evil spirits around today and that they are still very much active.I have seen people being delivered of spirits and of being controlled by spirits. They are here believe me, and we are all in a battle with them.Thank God though that we have the victory in Him.
Of course they love it when others deny their existance, that is part of their plan and desire.
They want people to believe that they are no longer active, and they are laughing that some actually do ignore what the Bible says and what most if us know, that they are still very much active in the world today.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Linker on Fri Jan 13, 2012 - 06:36:55
They are .... and some are on this forum
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Fri Jan 13, 2012 - 11:52:07
I just cant believe that anyone could believe that Satan and the evil spirits arent still around us today. Who do think that Jesus was battling when he was on earth? What was he casting out from people? Believe me, Satan and the evil spirits are alive and kicking and to deny this is putting your head in the sand and ignoring all of the New testament.
I have seen loads and loads of evidence of evil spirits around today and that they are still very much active.I have seen people being delivered of spirits and of being controlled by spirits. They are here believe me, and we are all in a battle with them.Thank God though that we have the victory in Him.
Of course they love it when others deny their existance, that is part of their plan and desire.
They want people to believe that they are no longer active, and they are laughing that some actually do ignore what the Bible says and what most if us know, that they are still very much active in the world today.
You are certainly free to believe or not believe "the devil" and "evil spirits" have an active existence today. But I believe "Satan" or "the devil" only represented sin, spiritual death, and evil. And as far as evils spirits are concerned, they were to be removed from the land in Christ's generation. The context of Zech13:1 has to do with that particular "in that day" and we know that God's expression was not just one single day, but more likely rendered "at that time."

I believe people are healed from "demons" by the believing Christ can heal them. But, if you look more closely, it is more likely mental illness and "demons of the mind" that faith heals them of today.
In the first century, demons actually indwelt people. Christ drove them out, they verbally spoke to Christ, "have you come to torment us before the time?" And those demons begged Jesus not to send them into the abyss. This is the abyss in Rev.20.

But we don't see or hear from those "unclean spirits" when they are hopefully driven out today, do we? Nor have we "discerned" any relocating their bad spirits into someone or something else, like to the herd of pigs, as in Christ's example, do we?

It's like those ghost hunters on TV,  I've never seen and heard any either.  Yet, they found a career in stretching the imagination to gullible souls, lol!

Amils and Postmils alike will always hold to the final battle against Satan as unfulfilled because it follows their Revelation chronology that Satan is "bound" today for believers- he can't deceive the "nations" from receiving the gospel.
That is partly true, but the timing is not right.  The "millennium" ended just before Satan was released "a short while" That short space was the great tribulation (67-70AD) and the "nations" in Rev.20:3, and 8 are referring to spiritual Israel (Hebrew Christians) and Israel after the flesh, respectively.

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Debrah on Fri Jan 13, 2012 - 16:25:26
demons, evil spirits are very real, and nothing to be made light of.  My friend was physically attacked by an evil spirit, and when she became a Christian it left her.

There is a book out called the "Rite", a priest writes about the rise in demon possession and the call for more priest to do exorsicms.  He admits he did not even believe until he witnessed these things himself.

What's behind the apparent rise in exorcisms?.
------------

from CBS news:

What's behind the apparent rise in exorcisms?

Father Thomas Williams, Dean of Theology at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University in Rome and a CBS News religion consultant, told co-anchor Maggie Rodriguez on The Early Show Tuesday, "There may be two reasons.

One:   is that there's increased interest in the occult, even in Satanism. Where I live in Italy, Satanic worship is actually on the rise. And this is true in a lot of places in Europe.  

second reason I think is because people are less careful. Honestly, they maybe pray less. They play around with things they shouldn't play with, and then they get into trouble. ... Anyone can be possessed, but I think you really have to open yourself up to it. You have to be un-careful. And I think the spiritual demons, or bad angels, do exist, and I think it's an extreme thing, but it happens sometimes.

How do you know that the person is possessed, and you're not just dealing with a psychological problem?

"Well," Williams responded, "that's the biggest challenge we have. Because obviously, many things that in the past that were considered demonic possession or demonic influence were really just diseases or psychological problems. So, priests work closely with psychologists to try to ascertain the real nature of the pathology or of the problem before performing an exorcism. But prayer never hurts. So if you're just praying for a person, you're not gonna do them any damage."

There are specific signs that a person is possessed, Williams continued;

 "Three typical signs are speaking strange languages, a language a person's never had any access to whatsoever, and they just become fluent in it. And often accompanied by a change of voice that doesn't even sound like the person.

 Another is knowledge of secret things. For example, saying things that the person has no way of knowing.

And a third is superhuman strength, the ability to lift objects and move things."

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500202_162-3877560.html

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Linker on Fri Jan 13, 2012 - 16:39:58
Satan will not be destroyed in the Lord's lake of fire until here [Revelation 20:7-10]

... 1000 years after this [Revelation 20:1-3]  

...... and he has deceived the preterist into thinking that he no longer exists

This top devil is a clever dude
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Fri Jan 13, 2012 - 18:02:16
Satan will not be destroyed in the Lord's lake of fire until here [Revelation 20:7-10]

... 1000 years after this [Revelation 20:1-3]  

...... and he has deceived the preterist into thinking that he no longer exists

This top devil is a clever dude

"until here (Rev.20:7-10)"

And the beginning and ending verse of Revelation said the things in the book would soon take place.
So unless John kept the book in under wraps for thousands of years, it all came to pass.

We give something much more power when we believe it.  There's nothing "clever" about that either. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy and a negative one. There's no blessing in it!

"resist the devil and he will flee from you" meant resist temptation to sin. Peter was emphasizing the importance of leading a holy life. The new man the new creation in Christ.
 
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Linker on Sat Jan 14, 2012 - 09:20:08
I do resist the devil and he does flee every time .... I am doing it now by exposing him

.... but some assist in his hiding by telling that he is in the lake of fire today

Who would do such a thing?

Tell me ..... why do you resist this one called Lucifer [the dragon and old serpent] when you think he is in the lake of fire and no longer able to deceive you?
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Sat Jan 14, 2012 - 19:17:18
I do resist the devil and he does flee every time .... I am doing it now by exposing him

.... but some assist in his hiding by telling that he is in the lake of fire today

Who would do such a thing?

Tell me ..... why do you resist this one called Lucifer [the dragon and old serpent] when you think he is in the lake of fire and no longer able to deceive you?

Because the Holy Spirit and my spirit do not discern any devil.  I have had God speak to my inner man but never the devil!

That's because it doesn't exist anymore. His "influence" is all that is in reality.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Linker on Sun Jan 15, 2012 - 07:56:21
"Because the Holy Spirit and my spirit do not discern any devil"


But the scriptures tell a very different truth on this matter which does not match your source regardless of what you call it

I will suggest to you that the "spirit" you claim to have encountered is not of God at all

.... one that is hiding the truth about Satan

And further more that you actually know this ..... or you may not
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Sun Jan 15, 2012 - 11:49:38
"Because the Holy Spirit and my spirit do not discern any devil"


But the scriptures tell a very different truth on this matter which does not match your source regardless of what you call it

I will suggest to you that the "spirit" you claim to have encountered is not of God at all

.... one that is hiding the truth about Satan

And further more that you actually know this ..... or you may not

The Holy Spirit doesn't "hide" anything regarding evil to a child of God.

I empathize that you have to literally constantly resist some kind of evil spirit devil, when it's just your own conscience you're battling with.

There is no devil.  Only people can be "evil."
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Linker on Sun Jan 15, 2012 - 20:03:00
"There is no devil"


Exactly what Satan says ..... he has you fooled

.... and the Lord's Word refutes you hands down
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 10:39:14
"Because the Holy Spirit and my spirit do not discern any devil"


But the scriptures tell a very different truth on this matter which does not match your source regardless of what you call it

I will suggest to you that the "spirit" you claim to have encountered is not of God at all

.... one that is hiding the truth about Satan

And further more that you actually know this ..... or you may not


The Holy Spirit doesn't "hide" anything regarding evil to a child of God.

I empathize that you have to literally constantly resist some kind of evil spirit devil, when it's just your own conscience you're battling with.

There is no devil.  Only people can be "evil."


There is a devil but he is in the lake of fire. You are correct that the conscience is the problem. 1 John says that Christ destroyed the works of the devil and that our problem was our own fears.

If it was the devil, then how could non-chrisitan psychologists help people with counseling? In some cases medication solves people's problems. Linker's views are both biblically and experientally ridiculous.

Christ destroyed the works of the devil (1 John 3:8). The "preachers" and "teachers" who say that satan still operates in the world today need to have their heads examined.

Just the other day a man at church got feelings of insecurity and misinterpreted something someone said and then blamed what he said onn satan.

It's no wonder the athiests are laughing at us. Note these wise words of a good christian man on another forum:

Quote
For all:  The religious world today has a greater faith in Satan than they do in Jesus. Their duped realities and distorted doctrines have created a universal picture in the hearts and minds of the religious world of Satan as a master and ruler of this world ....


He is sooo right in saying that the distorted realtiies of the religious community have created the "universal picture" of satan in the hearts and minds of people.

He is also right about so called christians FALSELY believing that satan is a ruler today. Jude says that Jesus Christ is the "ONLY despotes (ruler) and Lord." The word "ONLY despotes" in reference to Jesus means that satan is NOT a co-ruler with or under Jesus. It means that Jesus is the "ONLY ruler and Lord."

May God forgive such blasphemies against His Son.

thinker

(http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp114/_princessKristina/MYSPACE/Baltimore_Ravens.jpg)

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Linker on Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 13:28:13
How do you know that the devil is in the Lord's lake of fire?

..... it is a destroying fire ..... you do not want to end up there
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 18:34:25
How do you know that the devil is in the Lord's lake of fire?

..... it is a destroying fire ..... you do not want to end up there

Oh please, tell yourself!
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Linker on Tue Jan 17, 2012 - 06:04:39
Revelation 19 .... and then Revelation 20

The scriptures get it right every time

.... tell yourself this and believe it
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Tue Jan 17, 2012 - 09:45:27
Revelation 19 .... and then Revelation 20

The scriptures get it right every time

.... tell yourself this and believe it

All of Revelation was to "soon" take place (Rev1; 22) so Scriptures confirm our position that Satan is in the Lake of Fire.

When one twists God's time statements, they can end up with that last enemy still haunting them!

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Linker on Tue Jan 17, 2012 - 10:12:45
Revelation
12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Tue Jan 17, 2012 - 10:44:58
Quote
12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

So, the devil, the accuser of the brethren (someone like you), had A SHORT TIME.

Gog and Magog (God's enemies- the judaizers)  came against the Holy City (the spiritual bride- the new Jerusalem)

But the harlot would be judged (Rev.17,18)
and the kingdom was given the the "saints of the Most High" ( Rev.20:9,10; Dan. 7:27)

Revelation's fulfillment would be complete. John was told some of the visions and events prophetic descriptions already were, some were present, and the rest would would soon take place.

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Linker on Tue Jan 17, 2012 - 11:22:08
First:

Ezekiel
39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog [Satan] , and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

39:3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

39:5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

39:10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.

39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

39:13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.

39:14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.

39:15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.

39:16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.

39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

39:18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

39:19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

39:20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Continued parallel view:

Revelation
16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Continued parallel view:

Revelation
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Next:

Revelation
20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.



Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Tue Jan 17, 2012 - 19:25:58
You have no cohesive explanation for all of the Scripture you quoted.
Let me help you.
Quote
39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Quote
39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

This happened after their Jacob's captivity among the nations. God's plan was to save the 12 tribes of Israel, and He did. The New Jerusalem Bride denotes their names at the gates.
Ezekiel 38-39 is not the same event as Rev.19, when the wicked of Israel get their flesh plucked by the same prophetic "birds of the air."
It wasn't the first time God caused death and crying to Israel.

In Revelation, that was when one would be left behind to have "the eagles" figuratively pluck their flesh. Eagles were the Romans ensigns, by the way!
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Linker on Tue Jan 17, 2012 - 20:38:30
The Lord's lake of fire is a hot one

Better dump your preterism cover or you will end up in it [Revelation 20:11-15]

There is no hope tor you as long as you bask in your folly

Maybe you can find someone else on the forum to waste away with

By  By
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Wed Jan 18, 2012 - 10:11:59
The Lord's lake of fire is a hot one

Better dump you preterism cover or you will end up in it [Revelation 20:11-15]

There is no hope tor you as long as you bask in your folly

Maybe you can find someone else on the forum to waste away with

By  By

 ::spam:: ::offtopic::
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Sat Jan 21, 2012 - 21:00:44
Linker said:
Quote
Ezekiel
39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog [Satan] , and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:


TO ALL,

Please note how Linker adds to the word of God. He inserts the word "satan" in brackets into the text thus identifying Gog as satan. But verses 11-16 indicate that Gog's body would be buried with the bodies of other men. Therefore, Gog was a man.

Linker's book of fairy tales

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/jjbeanie/Fairy_tale.jpg)





Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Sat Jan 21, 2012 - 21:11:43
Linker said:
Quote
Ezekiel
39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog [Satan] , and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

TO ALL,

Please note how Linker adds to the word of God. He inserts the word "satan" in brackets into the text thus identifying Gog as satan. But verses 11-16 indicate that Gog's body would be buried with the bodies of other men. Therefore, Gog was a man.

I'm curious.  Who or what do you believe satan was/is?  You seem to disagree that satan could be a man...
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 14:40:51
LINKER IS TWISTING THE WORD AGAIN


REV 20:8 tells us SATAN decieves GOG so they can't be the same

To then say Satan is gog calls 20:8 a LIE!  Why would anyone listen to this person when he clearly twist the word to fit his beliefs EVENTHOUGH it goes against the word!!!!!

This is an easy to see false teacher here!!!! Don't be fooled

God says Satan decieves Gog and linker says Satan IS Gog


Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 14:51:18
What do you want to know about Satan goodie?


To even say something like this.... To funny
just bein a jerk.... I stand behind what I say
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 14:58:03
Linker said:
Quote
Ezekiel
39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog [Satan] , and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

TO ALL,

Please note how Linker adds to the word of God. He inserts the word "satan" in brackets into the text thus identifying Gog as satan. But verses 11-16 indicate that Gog's body would be buried with the bodies of other men. Therefore, Gog was a man.

I'm curious.  Who or what do you believe satan was/is?  You seem to disagree that satan could be a man...

exactly!!!
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 15:09:59
What do you want to know about Satan goodie?

19 For the report of your obedience has reached to all; therefore I am rejoicing over you, but I want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil. [Rom.16:19]

 24 Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets, ‘I will not impose any other burden on you, [Rev2:24]

 
Don't bother EdwardGoodie. We don't need his info anyway!     ::cheers::                                                        
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 15:22:19
I'm sorry, guys.  I should have been more specific.  Usually, I start off with the name of the person I was addressing.  I didn't do that this time and relied upon my quote to indicate who I was referencing...

Linker said something, then thethinker added his summary to it.

My question was to thethinker as to what he understood satan to represent, or be, or whatever.  No one has adequately addressed this issue.  Satan is just presumed to be a god of some kind although the same kind of vein as God Almighty...

Thethinker seems to disagree that satan could be a man.  I believe satan could be a man.  Jesus called Peter satan and I doubt He was wrong...but satan is not actually (in the physical sense) a man or a woman.

Satan simply means adversary - that which is opposed to the work of God.

Matthew 16:23 - But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.   [/color]

BTW, you can call me Ted...

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Bitter Sweet on Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 15:28:44
I believe satan could be a man.  

Satan is all about the flesh, I agree he is a man, totally deprived of all of God's goodness.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 16:25:04
satan is a fallen angel not a man
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 16:41:06
I believe satan could be a man.  

Satan is all about the flesh, I agree he is a man, totally deprived of all of God's goodness.



For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

EPH6:12
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 19:07:47
I'm sorry, guys.  I should have been more specific.  Usually, I start off with the name of the person I was addressing.  I didn't do that this time and relied upon my quote to indicate who I was referencing...

Linker said something, then thethinker added his summary to it.

My question was to thethinker as to what he understood satan to represent, or be, or whatever.  No one has adequately addressed this issue.  Satan is just presumed to be a god of some kind although the same kind of vein as God Almighty...

Thethinker seems to disagree that satan could be a man.  I believe satan could be a man.  Jesus called Peter satan and I doubt He was wrong...but satan is not actually (in the physical sense) a man or a woman.

Satan simply means adversary - that which is opposed to the work of God.

Matthew 16:23 - But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.   [/color]

BTW, you can call me Ted...




I was assuming that Linker defines satan as a fallen angel who rebelled against God according to traditional christian understanding. In this sense Gog in Ezekiel could not have been satan. Gog was a man and not a fallen angel. He was the prince of the ancient cities Meshech and Tubal. According to chapter 39 his body was buried like the bodies of other men.

Note that the source below gives two definitions for "satan." The first is according to traditional christianity and the second is according to the Christadelphian understanding.

Quote
In traditional Christian understanding of the holy Hebrew scriptures, the Torah, Satan is a synonym for the Devil. For most Christians, he is believed to be an angel who rebelled against God—and also the one who spoke through the serpent and seduced Eve into disobeying God's command. His ultimate goal is to lead people away from the love of God—to lead them to fallacies which God opposes. Satan is also identified as the accuser of Job, the tempter in the Gospels, the secret power of lawlessness in 2 Thessalonians 2:7, and the dragon in the Book of Revelation. Before his insurrection, Satan was among the highest of all angels and the "brightest in the sky". His pride is considered a reason why he would not bow to God as all other angels did, but sought to rule heaven himself. The popularly held beliefs that Satan was once a prideful angel who eventually rebels against God, however, are not portrayed explicitly in the Bible and are mostly based on inference (e.g., Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14:12–17). In mainstream Christianity he is called "the ruler of the demons" (Matt. 12:24), "the ruler of the world" and "the god of this world". (2 Cor. 4:4). The Book of Revelation describes how Satan will be cast out of Heaven, down to the earth, having "great anger" and waging war against "those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus". Ultimately, Satan is thrown into the "Lake of fire", not as ruler, but as one among many, being tormented day and night forever and ever.[26]

In other Christian beliefs (e.g. the beliefs of the Christadelphians) the word "satan" in the Bible is not regarded as referring to a supernatural, personal being but to any "adversary" and figuratively refers to human sin and temptation.[27]

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan[/url]


EdwardGoodie may define satan according to the Christadelphian sense. In this sense Gog could have been "satan" just as any other man. But Gog could not have been satan according to traditional christianity which is probably Linker's view.

thinker

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 19:12:11
satan is a fallen angel not a man

Therefore, Gog could not have been satan. Gog was the prince of the ancient cities Meshech and Tubal. His body was to be buried with the bodies of other men.

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Sun Jan 22, 2012 - 19:54:06
Actually, just so as we are very clear, I do not define satan according to the Christadelphian sense.  It is defined from the Bible.  The other definition which was apparently contrary to Linker's was is here:

"In other Christian beliefs (e.g. the beliefs of the Christadelphians) the word "satan" in the Bible is not regarded as referring to a supernatural, personal being but to any "adversary" and figuratively refers to human sin and temptation.[27]"

I found it odd that the plural form of Christian beliefs was used to just express one Christian belief (the Christadelphian view...There are many Christian beliefs that understand satan as being adversary.  The abuse of the Law is considered satanic as well...and the Pharisees who upheld those same abuses.  The Law had devolved and contained many Jewish traditions which Christ hammered them on...this is just ONE aspect of satanic activity.

Let's not swallow the traditions of satan according to folklore, folks.  Lucifer is NOT satan!

I'm not sure if Linker has described his version of satan, but it doesn't matter;
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 15:14:19
"I found it odd that the plural form of Christian beliefs was used to just express one Christian belief (the Christadelphian view...There are many Christian beliefs that understand satan as being adversary.  The abuse of the Law is considered satanic as well...and the Pharisees who upheld those same abuses.  The Law had devolved and contained many Jewish traditions which Christ hammered them on...this is just ONE aspect of satanic activity."

Let's not swallow the traditions of satan according to folklore, folks.  Lucifer is NOT satan!"


How convenient for goodie to call the blblical definition of Satan "folklore" and a myth

This is the way of the preterist who comes to deceive by twisting the very Word of God

Over and over he does this .... if the scriptures don't fit his views then he just calls them fables .... or he uses allegory to explain them away

Beware of this preterist who teaches falsely and do not buy his song ..... a man sorely deceived himself who is out to snare others into his folly  

Another useless and scriptureless response...

So, I guess by your usual denial, you can offer proof that lucifer was satan???  You do realize that no SCRIPTURAL proof will ever be provided, right?

I await your scriptural response that will not be forthcoming...lol.

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 16:02:41
"I found it odd that the plural form of Christian beliefs was used to just express one Christian belief (the Christadelphian view...There are many Christian beliefs that understand satan as being adversary.  The abuse of the Law is considered satanic as well...and the Pharisees who upheld those same abuses.  The Law had devolved and contained many Jewish traditions which Christ hammered them on...this is just ONE aspect of satanic activity."

Let's not swallow the traditions of satan according to folklore, folks.  Lucifer is NOT satan!"


How convenient for goodie to call the blblical definition of Satan "folklore" and a myth

This is the way of the preterist who comes to deceive by twisting the very Word of God

Over and over he does this .... if the scriptures don't fit his views then he just calls them fables .... or he uses allegory to explain them away

Beware of this preterist who teaches falsely and do not buy his song ..... a man sorely deceived himself who is out to snare others into his folly  

Another useless and scriptureless response...

So, I guess by your usual denial, you can offer proof that lucifer was satan???  You do realize that no SCRIPTURAL proof will ever be provided, right?

I await your scriptural response that will not be forthcoming...lol.



Lucifer was NOT satan in Isaiah 14. The prophecy was a proverbial taunt against the king of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar). Verse 3 says,

"You will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon saying...."

It is the king of Babylon who was said to "fall from heaven" (proverbially speaking). Jesus used the same proverb against the city of Capernaum saying that it had "fallen from heaven." That Isaiah's prophecy was about the fall of a MAN is confirmed in verse 16. After the king of Babylon (Lucifer) falls the people mock him saying,

"This is the MAN who made the earth tremble."

I accept that satan was a real person. But I reject that he fell from heaven and that he was to be identified with Lucifer. Satan was created on the earth and was associated with the beasts of the field  (Gen. 3:1). The name "Lucifer" was a proverbial name for the king of Babylon who fell from heaven proverbially speaking in the way Capernaum "fell from heaven."

There never was and never will be a sinful creature in God's heaven, that is, His abode. Satan was created on the earth. He was exclusively an earth bound creature. He tempted the man and the woman. After that he was cast into the abyss for the thousands of years. There was no satanic activity throughout the old testament period until he was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first and second comings. He was judged and cast into the lake of fire in ad70. The book of Hebrews was written very near to ad70. Hebrews 2:8 says that God put all Christ's enemies under His feet. It says that God left not one thing that is not put under Him. This includes satan! Paul said that God was to crush satan under the feet of the Roman christians "shortly."

Satan is in the lake of fire. There you have it! You have a synopsis of my views about satan.

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 16:18:38

Lucifer was NOT satan in Isaiah 14. The prophecy was a proverbial taunt against the king of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar). Verse 3 says,

"You will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon saying...."

It is the king of Babylon who was said to "fall from heaven" (proverbially speaking). Jesus used the same proverb against the city of Capernaum saying that it had "fallen from heaven." That Isaiah's prophecy was about the fall of a MAN is confirmed in verse 16. After the king of Babylon (Lucifer) falls the people mock him saying,

"This is the MAN who made the earth tremble."

I accept that satan was a real person. But I reject that he fell from heaven and that he was to be identified with Lucifer. Satan was created on the earth and was associated with the beasts of the field  (Gen. 3:1). The name "Lucifer" was a proverbial name for the king of Babylon who fell from heaven proverbially speaking in the way Capernaum "fell from heaven."

There never was and never will be a sinful creature in God's heaven, that is, His abode. Satan was created on the earth. He was exclusively an earth bound creature. He tempted the man and the woman. After that he was cast into the abyss for the thousands of years. There was no satanic activity throughout the old testament period until he was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first and second comings. He was judged and cast into the lake of fire in ad70. The book of Hebrews was written very near to ad70. Hebrews 2:8 says that God put all Christ's enemies under His feet. It says that God left not one thing that is not put under Him. This includes satan! Paul said that God was to crush satan under the feet of the Roman christians "shortly."

Satan is in the lake of fire. There you have it! You have a synopsis of my views about satan.

thinker

thethinker, I am not sure who you are responding to.  Is it to linker or to me?
I also hope you realize that I was saying to linker (if he does believe satan to be lucifer) that no proof exists for such a belief.  Anyway, he doesn't seem to want to tell us his beliefs about satan; and I don't really care to hear them either because there won't be any Scripture supplied, and even if there is, it won't match what he says...

I agreed with most everything you said.  You seem to be of the opinion that satan was a single created being.  Please clarify for me; is this what you meant?  And what Scripture do you use to support this?

Also, if you could provide the Scriptures so that I may look at them to support your understanding of the following:

"After that he was cast into the abyss for the thousands of years. There was no satanic activity throughout the old testament period until he was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first and second comings."

Thank you.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 18:19:57

Lucifer was NOT satan in Isaiah 14. The prophecy was a proverbial taunt against the king of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar). Verse 3 says,

"You will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon saying...."

It is the king of Babylon who was said to "fall from heaven" (proverbially speaking). Jesus used the same proverb against the city of Capernaum saying that it had "fallen from heaven." That Isaiah's prophecy was about the fall of a MAN is confirmed in verse 16. After the king of Babylon (Lucifer) falls the people mock him saying,

"This is the MAN who made the earth tremble."

I accept that satan was a real person. But I reject that he fell from heaven and that he was to be identified with Lucifer. Satan was created on the earth and was associated with the beasts of the field  (Gen. 3:1). The name "Lucifer" was a proverbial name for the king of Babylon who fell from heaven proverbially speaking in the way Capernaum "fell from heaven."

There never was and never will be a sinful creature in God's heaven, that is, His abode. Satan was created on the earth. He was exclusively an earth bound creature. He tempted the man and the woman. After that he was cast into the abyss for the thousands of years. There was no satanic activity throughout the old testament period until he was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first and second comings. He was judged and cast into the lake of fire in ad70. The book of Hebrews was written very near to ad70. Hebrews 2:8 says that God put all Christ's enemies under His feet. It says that God left not one thing that is not put under Him. This includes satan! Paul said that God was to crush satan under the feet of the Roman christians "shortly."

Satan is in the lake of fire. There you have it! You have a synopsis of my views about satan.

thinker


thethinker, I am not sure who you are responding to.  Is it to linker or to me?
I also hope you realize that I was saying to linker (if he does believe satan to be lucifer) that no proof exists for such a belief.  Anyway, he doesn't seem to want to tell us his beliefs about satan; and I don't really care to hear them either because there won't be any Scripture supplied, and even if there is, it won't match what he says...

I agreed with most everything you said.  You seem to be of the opinion that satan was a single created being.  Please clarify for me; is this what you meant?  And what Scripture do you use to support this?

Also, if you could provide the Scriptures so that I may look at them to support your understanding of the following:

"After that he was cast into the abyss for the thousands of years. There was no satanic activity throughout the old testament period until he was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first and second comings."

Thank you.



EG,

I was responding to the traditional view of satan. I believe that satan was an individual and personal being but that he was NOT fallen from heaven. He was created an earthbound creature. Moses explicitly said that the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the field which the Lord God had made.

I believe that satan was bound and cast into the abyss after the fall of man in the garden. John said that he saw the "ANCIENT SERPENT" be cast into the abyss. This necessarily points back to the garden. The first generation of christians were in the "little season" of satan's loosing. But the vision was taking them back to the garden when it all started.

A proof that satan was bound after the fall is seen in the fact that there was no satanic activity throughout the old testament period (the thousands of years). Moreover, Peter and Jude refer to the event in their past when the evil angels which included satan were chained in Tarturus (a name for the abyss).

It was not until Christ came that we see them on the earth wreaking havoc. This is because they had been loosed from the abyss at some point around that time.

The timing of the judgment is also proof that the binding of satan was past and that the people of God were in the "little season." Jesus said that the prince of this world was being judged "NOW." The judgment of satan comes AFTER the "little season" of his loosing. Judgment "NOW" infers that the "little season" was coming to its end.

Before you challenge my assertion that there was no satanic activity during the old testament period please see page 1 of this thread replies 6 and ff.

Satan did NOT fall from heaven. he was an earthbound creature. There is only one passage offered us as a "proof text" that satan fell from heaven and it is found in Isaiah 14. But the prophecy is CLEARLY about the fall of the king of Babylon without dispute. Therefore, there is NO passage in the bible which says that satan fell from heaven. None! Zilch! Nada! Satan was created an earthbound creature. By "earthbound" I include the lower heavens such as the skies. Satan was NEVER in heaven itself, the abode of God where only righteous men and angels may dwell and may NEVER fall.

Tomorrow,

thinker (http://www.pic4ever.com/images/127fs4585254.gif)
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 18:41:30

Lucifer was NOT satan in Isaiah 14. The prophecy was a proverbial taunt against the king of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar). Verse 3 says,

"You will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon saying...."

It is the king of Babylon who was said to "fall from heaven" (proverbially speaking). Jesus used the same proverb against the city of Capernaum saying that it had "fallen from heaven." That Isaiah's prophecy was about the fall of a MAN is confirmed in verse 16. After the king of Babylon (Lucifer) falls the people mock him saying,

"This is the MAN who made the earth tremble."

I accept that satan was a real person. But I reject that he fell from heaven and that he was to be identified with Lucifer. Satan was created on the earth and was associated with the beasts of the field  (Gen. 3:1). The name "Lucifer" was a proverbial name for the king of Babylon who fell from heaven proverbially speaking in the way Capernaum "fell from heaven."

There never was and never will be a sinful creature in God's heaven, that is, His abode. Satan was created on the earth. He was exclusively an earth bound creature. He tempted the man and the woman. After that he was cast into the abyss for the thousands of years. There was no satanic activity throughout the old testament period until he was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first and second comings. He was judged and cast into the lake of fire in ad70. The book of Hebrews was written very near to ad70. Hebrews 2:8 says that God put all Christ's enemies under His feet. It says that God left not one thing that is not put under Him. This includes satan! Paul said that God was to crush satan under the feet of the Roman christians "shortly."

Satan is in the lake of fire. There you have it! You have a synopsis of my views about satan.

thinker


thethinker, I am not sure who you are responding to.  Is it to linker or to me?
I also hope you realize that I was saying to linker (if he does believe satan to be lucifer) that no proof exists for such a belief.  Anyway, he doesn't seem to want to tell us his beliefs about satan; and I don't really care to hear them either because there won't be any Scripture supplied, and even if there is, it won't match what he says...

I agreed with most everything you said.  You seem to be of the opinion that satan was a single created being.  Please clarify for me; is this what you meant?  And what Scripture do you use to support this?

Also, if you could provide the Scriptures so that I may look at them to support your understanding of the following:

"After that he was cast into the abyss for the thousands of years. There was no satanic activity throughout the old testament period until he was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first and second comings."

Thank you.



EG,

I was responding to the traditional view of satan. I believe that satan was an individual and personal being but that he was NOT fallen from heaven. He was created an earthbound creature. Moses explicitly said that the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the field which the Lord God had made.

I believe that satan was bound and cast into the abyss after the fall of man in the garden. John said that he saw the "ANCIENT SERPENT" be cast into the abyss. This necessarily points back to the garden. The first generation of christians were in the "little season" of satan's loosing. But the vision was taking them back to the garden when it all started.

A proof that satan was bound after the fall is seen in the fact that there was no satanic activity throughout the old testament period (the thousands of years). Moreover, Peter and Jude refer to the event in their past when the evil angels which included satan were chained in Tarturus (a name for the abyss).

It was not until Christ came that we see them on the earth wreaking havoc. This is because they had been loosed from the abyss at some point around that time.

The timing of the judgment is also proof that the binding of satan was past and that the people of God were in the "little season." Jesus said that the prince of this world was being judged "NOW." The judgment of satan comes AFTER the "little season" of his loosing. Judgment "NOW" infers that the "little season" was coming to its end.

Before you challenge my assertion that there was no satanic activity during the old testament period please see page 1 of this thread replies 6 and ff.

Satan did NOT fall from heaven. he was an earthbound creature. There is only one passage offered us as a "proof text" that satan fell from heaven and it is found in Isaiah 14. But the prophecy is CLEARLY about the fall of the king of Babylon without dispute. Therefore, there is NO passage in the bible which says that satan fell from heaven. None! Zilch! Nada! Satan was created an earthbound creature. By "earthbound" I include the lower heavens such as the skies. Satan was NEVER in heaven itself, the abode of God where only righteous men and angels may dwell and may NEVER fall.

Tomorrow,

thinker ([url]http://www.pic4ever.com/images/127fs4585254.gif[/url])





Job 1:6  When the day came for the heavenly beings to appear before the LORD, Satan was there among them.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 20:37:56
EG,

I was responding to the traditional view of satan. I believe that satan was an individual and personal being but that he was NOT fallen from heaven. He was created an earthbound creature. Moses explicitly said that the serpent was more subtle than any of the beasts of the field which the Lord God had made.

I believe that satan was bound and cast into the abyss after the fall of man in the garden. John said that he saw the "ANCIENT SERPENT" be cast into the abyss. This necessarily points back to the garden. The first generation of christians were in the "little season" of satan's loosing. But the vision was taking them back to the garden when it all started.

A proof that satan was bound after the fall is seen in the fact that there was no satanic activity throughout the old testament period (the thousands of years). Moreover, Peter and Jude refer to the event in their past when the evil angels which included satan were chained in Tarturus (a name for the abyss).

It was not until Christ came that we see them on the earth wreaking havoc. This is because they had been loosed from the abyss at some point around that time.

The timing of the judgment is also proof that the binding of satan was past and that the people of God were in the "little season." Jesus said that the prince of this world was being judged "NOW." The judgment of satan comes AFTER the "little season" of his loosing. Judgment "NOW" infers that the "little season" was coming to its end.

Before you challenge my assertion that there was no satanic activity during the old testament period please see page 1 of this thread replies 6 and ff.

Satan did NOT fall from heaven. he was an earthbound creature. There is only one passage offered us as a "proof text" that satan fell from heaven and it is found in Isaiah 14. But the prophecy is CLEARLY about the fall of the king of Babylon without dispute. Therefore, there is NO passage in the bible which says that satan fell from heaven. None! Zilch! Nada! Satan was created an earthbound creature. By "earthbound" I include the lower heavens such as the skies. Satan was NEVER in heaven itself, the abode of God where only righteous men and angels may dwell and may NEVER fall.

Tomorrow,

Well, it seems that we hold a few differences, but each of us are opposed to the traditional teaching.
I agree that satan was not someone who was cast down from heaven.

A couple of questions if you will permit:

1)  These "beasts of the field" that satan was more subtle than, would they be considered similar to the ones mentioned in Hosea?

Hosea 2:18 - And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.   

2)  If satan is an earthbound creature as you say he is, and if you believe the flood was global in nature, how did he survive to bring problems to Job?

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 20:42:41
Mr EdwardGoodie,

if i remember right i dont think anyone knows when Job was written, it could have been before the flood couldnt it?  ::pondering::
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 22:18:05
Mr EdwardGoodie,

if i remember right i dont think anyone knows when Job was written, it could have been before the flood couldnt it?  ::pondering::

A valid question, to be sure...

If the Sabeans which came in Job 1:15 were pre-flood, then how come Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Joel mention them in the present tense?  Wouldn't they have all been wiped out and only Noah's sons and daughters were left to repopulate (according to a global flood).  The references are Isaiah 45:14, Ezekiel 23:42, and Joel 3:8.

Job, being a priest, offered burnt-offerings (Job 1:5).  How did Job learn to do this pre-Mosaic Law?

Note: This leads to a whole ball of wax about whether there the Levitical laws were common knowledge before Sinai...and even in the events of Cain and Abel.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 22:23:02
<<<   ::doh:: never thought about the sacrifices

your right he wouldn't have known about them till after Moses
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 22:40:07
<<<   ::doh:: never thought about the sacrifices

your right he wouldn't have known about them till after Moses

This same "difficulty" goes all the way back to Cain and Abel's offerings too.  That ought to cause some sleepless nights! (but not for me)
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 22:47:50
What if the Lord spoke to them differently, like when Abraham went to the mountain to sacrifice his son and found the sacrifice the Lord gave him, that was way before the Mosaic law, right?    ::pondering::
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: n2thelight on Mon Jan 23, 2012 - 23:27:35
TO ALL,

The thousands of years were fulfilled during the old testament period when satan was bound. John's vision in Revelation 20 took him BACK IN TIME. John said that he saw the "ANCIENT serpent" in a great chain and cast into the abyss. John saw the "ANCIENT serpent" cast into the abyss. The proof that satan was bound during the ot period is that there was no satanic activity during the old testament period.

Then John's vision takes him to the "little season" in His present time. The "little season" was that period of time between Christ's first and second comings. This is when satan was loosed. This is the very first time we see satanic activity since the temptation in the garden. There was no satanic activity after the garden incident UNTIL Christ appeared. The absence of ALL satanic activity before Christ proves that satan was bound until Christ's first coming.

Thus the first saints were in the "little season" but in the end of it. We know this to be true because satan's judgment was NEAR TO THEM. Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this world cast out" (John 12:32). Paul said that satan would be "SHORTLY" dashed to pieces under the feet of the first Christians (Rom. 16:20). So satan was dashed to pieces under THEIR feet and subsequently cast into the lake of fire.

So here is the true biblical chronology:

1. Satan bound around the time he was cursed in the garden and throughout the old testament period (no satanic activity).

2. He was loosed for the "little season" between Christ's first coming and His second coming in ad70 (all kinds of satanic activity during this time).

3. He was judged in ad70 and cast into the lake of fire (mankind is the sole source of all evil now).

4. We are in the new earth which is the eternal new covenant age (The first heaven and earth were the old covenant, Deuteronomy chaps 30-32. The physical heaven and earth has no prophetic relevance).

thinker

Don't know where to start,so I will just keep it simple

1.He's not bound,he is now in heaven,where he will be soon kicked out.......

2.He was not loosed,he will not be until the end of the milennium...........

3.He was judged,this is correct,however the time of that judgment happened,before the foundation of this world age,his sentence was death,yet at this time he is still alive.........

4.We are not in the new earth,as this earth is still a violent place,earthquakes,hurricanes,volcanic eruptions,and tonadoes,just to name a few,the new earth will not have such......

Also had Christ came the 2nd time,we would not now still be in flesh bodies,as all will be changed at that time(7th trump).....

Also in the below verse,Christ brings all those that are now in heaven,to this earth,as per the below verse,can you please tell me where these people are now?

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Those refered to as sleep here,are those that have died,these people are now in heaven

Revelation 6:9 
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

So again I ask where are these people.............

Mankind is not the sole source of evil,that's why we must have on the whole armour of God,which is His Word,but even if that were true,in the New World there shall be no evil period..................

Revelation 21:4 
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 00:27:21
back on topic,

 if Satan was bound in the old testament why was he wondering to and fro on the earth, and why did he have to go in front of God and answer Gods question about where he had been and what he was up too!   ::shrug::


He also tempted Jesus after the Lords 40 day and night fast in the desert, sounds to me like he roamed between heaven and earth at his will
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 00:40:27
Revelation 21:4 
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.



   ::nodding::   ::amen!::

I sure see allot of sorrow, death, and I darn sure have allot of pain!!   
and i bet all those dead mummies from over 2000 yrs ago are still in their tombs -- o wait some of them have been opened up allready. 
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: n2thelight on Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 02:05:16
Revelation 21:4 
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.



   ::nodding::   ::amen!::

I sure see allot of sorrow, death, and I darn sure have allot of pain!!   
and i bet all those dead mummies from over 2000 yrs ago are still in their tombs -- o wait some of them have been opened up allready. 

Amen!!!!!!
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: raggthyme on Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 02:43:35

Mankind is not the sole source of evil,that's why we must have on the whole armour of God,which is His Word,but even if that were true,in the New World there shall be no evil period..................

Revelation 21:4 
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


That verse made me ponder these verses...


Isaiah 65
Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

But be ye glad and rejoice for ever [in that] which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

So I looked up the word for "troubles" on BLB (LOVE that site) and found that it can mean "rival wife." Not that I'm saying it means that here, but it would make sense if "Old Covenant Jerusalem" truly is mystery Babylon who drinks the cup of the wrath of her fornication. Jesus said that upon her would come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth! Revelation says she is drunk with the blood of the saints and martyrs of Jesus. She, being an adulterous wife, would surely be a rival wife. And the context would indicate that God is casting off that one and calling His servants (His church). He says the former things are forgotten, maybe He means the former covenant with it's law of sin and death... replaced with the new covenant where they sorrow no more for the pains of death are removed, sin no longer having dominion over us! Physical pain is inevitable while we live in this world, Jesus said here we would surely have tribulation. Yet the trials of this life are not to be compared to the glory of heaven... but I ramble.

Sorry thinker, BACK TO TOPIC! :)
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 10:42:32
What if the Lord spoke to them differently, like when Abraham went to the mountain to sacrifice his son and found the sacrifice the Lord gave him, that was way before the Mosaic law, right?    ::pondering::

Not sure what you mean by "the Lord spoke to them "differently,"" but I have no problem that the Law was well-known before Sinai.  It is obvious that people were performing offerings long before this time.

Like I said before, the offerings that Cain and Abel performed are of great significance.  Where would they even get that idea?  From their parents, perhaps???
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 10:59:21
Revelation 21:4 
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.



   ::nodding::   ::amen!::

I sure see allot of sorrow, death, and I darn sure have allot of pain!!   
and i bet all those dead mummies from over 2000 yrs ago are still in their tombs -- o wait some of them have been opened up allready. 

fenton,

It would really help to understand why John said what he said.  He is alluding to a prior PROMISE TO ISRAEL!

Isaiah 25:8 - He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.  

Notice that this takes place at the same time that death is swallowed up in victory.  Notice also that this too is a PROMISE TO ISRAEL.

I have already shown that the new Jerusalem is to be equated with the church in another post of mine.  The apostle Paul quotes directly from this same verse in 1 Corinthians 15:54:

1 Corinthians 15:54 - So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.   

There is a whole lot more but the "resurrection" promise is to old covenant Israel.  Israel does not get resurrected unless it transitions over to the new covenant in Christ - THE CHURCH, the Israel of God, the fulfillment of the OT Scriptures.

Resurrection simply means to be brought back from the dead.  One passes from death unto life through Jesus Christ who is the LIFE.  Christ came to save those who were DEAD in their sins...

Now, if Israel has not yet received her promise (and she most certainly has), THEN WE HAVE NOT RECEIVED IT EITHER...

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Tue Jan 24, 2012 - 11:06:47

Revelation 21:4 
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


That verse made me ponder these verses...


Isaiah 65
Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

But be ye glad and rejoice for ever [in that] which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Hopefully, some day people will be able to correlate how Revelation 21:4's "the former things are passed away" to the new creation in Jesus Christ:

(ESV) 2Co 5:17  Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation [ktisis]. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: n2thelight on Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 01:37:36
Revelation 21:4 
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.



   ::nodding::   ::amen!::

I sure see allot of sorrow, death, and I darn sure have allot of pain!!   
and i bet all those dead mummies from over 2000 yrs ago are still in their tombs -- o wait some of them have been opened up allready. 

fenton,

It would really help to understand why John said what he said.  He is alluding to a prior PROMISE TO ISRAEL!

Isaiah 25:8 - He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.  

Notice that this takes place at the same time that death is swallowed up in victory.  Notice also that this too is a PROMISE TO ISRAEL.

I have already shown that the new Jerusalem is to be equated with the church in another post of mine.  The apostle Paul quotes directly from this same verse in 1 Corinthians 15:54:

1 Corinthians 15:54 - So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.   

There is a whole lot more but the "resurrection" promise is to old covenant Israel.  Israel does not get resurrected unless it transitions over to the new covenant in Christ - THE CHURCH, the Israel of God, the fulfillment of the OT Scriptures.

Resurrection simply means to be brought back from the dead.  One passes from death unto life through Jesus Christ who is the LIFE.  Christ came to save those who were DEAD in their sins...

Now, if Israel has not yet received her promise (and she most certainly has), THEN WE HAVE NOT RECEIVED IT EITHER...



Paul said we would not all sleep(DIE)but we all shall be changed,when,at the 7th trump,had Christ returned,we would not now be in flesh bodies as the age of the flesh shall be over.....
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Bitter Sweet on Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 02:52:13

Mankind is not the sole source of evil,that's why we must have on the whole armour of God,which is His Word,but even if that were true,in the New World there shall be no evil period..................

Revelation 21:4  
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


That verse made me ponder these verses...


Isaiah 65
Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

But be ye glad and rejoice for ever [in that] which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

I think you nailed this here.  ::applause::

Quote
So I looked up the word for "troubles" on BLB (LOVE that site) and found that it can mean "rival wife." Not that I'm saying it means that here, but it would make sense if "Old Covenant Jerusalem" truly is mystery Babylon who drinks the cup of the wrath of her fornication. Jesus said that upon her would come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth! Revelation says she is drunk with the blood of the saints and martyrs of Jesus. She, being an adulterous wife, would surely be a rival wife. And the context would indicate that God is casting off that one and calling His servants (His church). He says the former things are forgotten, maybe He means the former covenant with it's law of sin and death... replaced with the new covenant where they sorrow no more for the pains of death are removed, sin no longer having dominion over us! Physical pain is inevitable while we live in this world, Jesus said here we would surely have tribulation. Yet the trials of this life are not to be compared to the glory of heaven... but I ramble.

Sorry thinker, BACK TO TOPIC! :)


I kinda got a little thrown off here except the word troubles. I know it also means the name of a woman in the OT, it's something along the lines of Behlia or Belhia, something like that, her name means trouble. Does her name ring a bell to anyone, what chapter is she in?
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: raggthyme on Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 03:33:55

Quote
So I looked up the word for "troubles" on BLB (LOVE that site) and found that it can mean "rival wife." Not that I'm saying it means that here, but it would make sense if "Old Covenant Jerusalem" truly is mystery Babylon who drinks the cup of the wrath of her fornication. Jesus said that upon her would come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth! Revelation says she is drunk with the blood of the saints and martyrs of Jesus. She, being an adulterous wife, would surely be a rival wife. And the context would indicate that God is casting off that one and calling His servants (His church). He says the former things are forgotten, maybe He means the former covenant with it's law of sin and death... replaced with the new covenant where they sorrow no more for the pains of death are removed, sin no longer having dominion over us! Physical pain is inevitable while we live in this world, Jesus said here we would surely have tribulation. Yet the trials of this life are not to be compared to the glory of heaven... but I ramble.

Sorry thinker, BACK TO TOPIC! :)


I kinda got a little thrown off here except the word troubles. I know it also means the name of a woman in the OT, it's something along the lines of Behlia or Belhia, something like that, her name means trouble. Does her name ring a bell to anyone, what chapter is she in?

haha! Ya, I was all over the place on that one. It's not really one cohesive thought is it, just the ramblings of my unorganized mind! (I was really onto something I tell ya, I was.)  ::nodding:: too bad it didn't come out that way. lol

I think I should refrain from posting after midnight...
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Bitter Sweet on Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 05:08:19

Quote
So I looked up the word for "troubles" on BLB (LOVE that site) and found that it can mean "rival wife." Not that I'm saying it means that here, but it would make sense if "Old Covenant Jerusalem" truly is mystery Babylon who drinks the cup of the wrath of her fornication. Jesus said that upon her would come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth! Revelation says she is drunk with the blood of the saints and martyrs of Jesus. She, being an adulterous wife, would surely be a rival wife. And the context would indicate that God is casting off that one and calling His servants (His church). He says the former things are forgotten, maybe He means the former covenant with it's law of sin and death... replaced with the new covenant where they sorrow no more for the pains of death are removed, sin no longer having dominion over us! Physical pain is inevitable while we live in this world, Jesus said here we would surely have tribulation. Yet the trials of this life are not to be compared to the glory of heaven... but I ramble.

Sorry thinker, BACK TO TOPIC! :)


I kinda got a little thrown off here except the word troubles. I know it also means the name of a woman in the OT, it's something along the lines of Behlia or Belhia, something like that, her name means trouble. Does her name ring a bell to anyone, what chapter is she in?

haha! Ya, I was all over the place on that one. It's not really one cohesive thought is it, just the ramblings of my unorganized mind! (I was really onto something I tell ya, I was.)  ::nodding:: too bad it didn't come out that way. lol

I think I should refrain from posting after midnight...

I love those integrated thoughts, it usually takes me a minute to express them clearly after the initial blurt! lol! But, when I mentioned Behla or whatever her name is that means trouble, she was someones daughter, and you even said it could mean "rival wife" but I am not saying that here, maybe because mystery Babylon is someone's daughter? I've always had that inclination, there are 2 women, 1 is arrayed in white and the other is mystery Babylon. One was committed to evil and the other to Christ, both women represent church but only one is the bride/wife. Oh, I see the rival wife now and how you may have gotten that with mystery Babylon, I don't think she is in power any more, only in the hearts and minds of the people that worship the beast. Thank GOD!

Look at what I just found, I think it ties in perfectly with the 2 woman in revelation; 1 Corinthians 6:16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 14:06:53
back on topic,

 if Satan was bound in the old testament why was he wondering to and fro on the earth, and why did he have to go in front of God and answer Gods question about where he had been and what he was up too!   ::shrug::


He also tempted Jesus after the Lords 40 day and night fast in the desert, sounds to me like he roamed between heaven and earth at his will


Job's adversary was not the devil but a HUMAN accuser. The Hebrew "sawtawn" simply means "adversary. Job's accuser was a MAN. See replies 6 and ff on page 1 to this thread.

6And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the adversary in their midst.

See Job 1:6 in the Hebrew Interlinear http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

The devil and all the evil angels were chained in Tartarus per Peter and Jude. He had been loosed by the time of Jesus.


thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 15:06:11
back on topic,

 if Satan was bound in the old testament why was he wondering to and fro on the earth, and why did he have to go in front of God and answer Gods question about where he had been and what he was up too!   ::shrug::


He also tempted Jesus after the Lords 40 day and night fast in the desert, sounds to me like he roamed between heaven and earth at his will


Job's adversary was not the devil but a HUMAN accuser. The Hebrew "sawtawn" simply means "adversary. Job's accuser was a MAN. See replies 6 and ff on page 1 to this thread.

6And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the adversary in their midst.

See Job 1:6 in the Hebrew Interlinear [url]http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm[/url]

The devil and all the evil angels were chained in Tartarus per Peter and Jude. He had been loosed by the time of Jesus.


thinker


Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them
a man that was in heaven then he descended to earth to do what he wanted???  and you guys think us pentacostals are out there!  ::smile::.


Luk_10:18  (KJV)  And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luke observed satan falling from heaven, can a man do that?


Luk_22:3  (KJV)  Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
can satan enter a man as a man??

Rev_12:9  (KJV)  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
called the old serpent, devil and satan same enity three different names


Rev_12:9  (MSG)  The great Dragon--ancient Serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, the one who led the whole earth astray--thrown out, and all his Angels thrown out with him, thrown down to earth.
here again-- three names again only a different version

Rev_20:2  (MSG)  He grabbed the Dragon, that old Snake--the very Devil, Satan himself!--chained him up for a thousand years,
again three names for the same evil enity--not a man!

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 15:18:35

Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them
a man that was in heaven then he descended to earth to do what he wanted???  and you guys think us pentacostals are out there!  ::smile::.

My understanding of satan is perhaps a little more broad that that of you or thethinker.  Satan simply means adversary and can be evidenced through man, through a belief, through a system, or anything else that is opposition to God's plan...

Your verse above does not necessarily suggest physical events.  There is a poetic style throughout Job...
The verse above does not posit a place where the LORD was.  It is your assumption that the traditional heaven is that place...


Luk_10:18  (KJV)  And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luke observed satan falling from heaven, can a man do that?

Careful when attempting to literally interpret...and by literal, I mean according to the literature.  See the word "as"?  It represents a simile (like, as) and cannot be interpreted as a physical-type event.


Luk_22:3  (KJV)  Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
can satan enter a man as a man??

No, a man cannot enter a man, but a thought that is in opposition to God's plan can...

Rev_12:9  (KJV)  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
called the old serpent, devil and satan same enity three different names

No problem there...

Rev_12:9  (MSG)  The great Dragon--ancient Serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, the one who led the whole earth astray--thrown out, and all his Angels thrown out with him, thrown down to earth.
here again-- three names again only a different version

Still no problem there...

Rev_20:2  (MSG)  He grabbed the Dragon, that old Snake--the very Devil, Satan himself!--chained him up for a thousand years,
again three names for the same evil enity--not a man!

And again...


Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 15:22:53
fenton said:
Quote
Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them
a man that was in heaven then he descended to earth to do what he wanted???  and you guys think us pentacostals are out there!  .

Where does it say that the event was taking place in heaven? The sons of God were the godly line of Seth. The Psalms repeatedly say that the people of God are "before His presence" when they worship. Therefore, we are "before the Lord" when we worship though we are not in heaven.

John saw the ANCIENT SERPENT be thrown into the abyss in chains. Peter and Jude say that the evil angels had been chained in Tarturus. They were loosed when Christ appeared.

thinker


Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 17:47:59
fenton said:
Quote
Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them
a man that was in heaven then he descended to earth to do what he wanted???  and you guys think us pentacostals are out there!  .

Where does it say that the event was taking place in heaven? The sons of God were the godly line of Seth. The Psalms repeatedly say that the people of God are "before His presence" when they worship. Therefore, we are "before the Lord" when we worship though we are not in heaven.

John saw the ANCIENT SERPENT be thrown into the abyss in chains. Peter and Jude say that the evil angels had been chained in Tarturus. They were loosed when Christ appeared.

thinker





well I guess its how you interpret sons of God - --  i take it as angels or heavenly beings  -so if it were they, then where else would they meet.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 18:32:23
fenton said:
Quote
Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them
a man that was in heaven then he descended to earth to do what he wanted???  and you guys think us pentacostals are out there!  .

Where does it say that the event was taking place in heaven? The sons of God were the godly line of Seth. The Psalms repeatedly say that the people of God are "before His presence" when they worship. Therefore, we are "before the Lord" when we worship though we are not in heaven.

John saw the ANCIENT SERPENT be thrown into the abyss in chains. Peter and Jude say that the evil angels had been chained in Tarturus. They were loosed when Christ appeared.

thinker





well I guess its how you interpret sons of God - --  i take it as angels or heavenly beings  -so if it were they, then where else would they meet.


Psalm 2:7 and Hebrews 1:5 say that God never called an angel a son.

"To which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my son."'

The sons of God were the godly line of Seth. Only men are sons of God. Angels are ministering spirits to His sons.

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 18:56:41
fenton said:
Quote
Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them
a man that was in heaven then he descended to earth to do what he wanted???  and you guys think us pentacostals are out there!  .

Where does it say that the event was taking place in heaven? The sons of God were the godly line of Seth. The Psalms repeatedly say that the people of God are "before His presence" when they worship. Therefore, we are "before the Lord" when we worship though we are not in heaven.

John saw the ANCIENT SERPENT be thrown into the abyss in chains. Peter and Jude say that the evil angels had been chained in Tarturus. They were loosed when Christ appeared.

thinker





well I guess its how you interpret sons of God - --  i take it as angels or heavenly beings  -so if it were they, then where else would they meet.


Psalm 2:7 and Hebrews 1:5 say that God never called an angel a son.

"To which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my son."'

The sons of God were the godly line of Seth. Only men are sons of God. Angels are ministering spirits to His sons.

thinker

i guess i need to be careful what i read

(MSG)  One day when the angels came to report to GOD, Satan, who was the Designated Accuser, came along with them.

(ISV)  One day, divine beings presented themselves to the LORD, and Satan accompanied them.

(GNB)  When the day came for the heavenly beings to appear before the LORD, Satan was there among them.

(ERV)  Then the day came for the angels to meet with the LORD. Even Satan was there with them.

(CEV)  One day, when the angels had gathered around the LORD, and Satan was there with them,
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 19:17:05
fenton said:
Quote
Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them
a man that was in heaven then he descended to earth to do what he wanted???  and you guys think us pentacostals are out there!  .

Where does it say that the event was taking place in heaven? The sons of God were the godly line of Seth. The Psalms repeatedly say that the people of God are "before His presence" when they worship. Therefore, we are "before the Lord" when we worship though we are not in heaven.

John saw the ANCIENT SERPENT be thrown into the abyss in chains. Peter and Jude say that the evil angels had been chained in Tarturus. They were loosed when Christ appeared.

thinker





well I guess its how you interpret sons of God - --  i take it as angels or heavenly beings  -so if it were they, then where else would they meet.


Psalm 2:7 and Hebrews 1:5 say that God never called an angel a son.

"To which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my son."'

The sons of God were the godly line of Seth. Only men are sons of God. Angels are ministering spirits to His sons.

thinker

i guess i need to be careful what i read

(MSG)  One day when the angels came to report to GOD, Satan, who was the Designated Accuser, came along with them.

(ISV)  One day, divine beings presented themselves to the LORD, and Satan accompanied them.

(GNB)  When the day came for the heavenly beings to appear before the LORD, Satan was there among them.

(ERV)  Then the day came for the angels to meet with the LORD. Even Satan was there with them.

(CEV)  One day, when the angels had gathered around the LORD, and Satan was there with them,

Pagan translations! God NEVER called an angel His son (Ps. 2:7; Heb. 1:5). The sons of God married women which angels cannot do (Gen. 6:3 with Matthew 22:30).

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 20:30:24
Job 1:6


There was a day when the sons of God - All the versions, and indeed all the critics, are puzzled with the phrase sons of God; בני האלהים  beney haelohim, literally, sons of the God, or sons of the gods. The Vulgate has simply filii dei, sons of God. The Septuagint, οἱ αγγελοι του θεου, the angels of God. The Chaldee, כתי מלאכיא  kittey malachaiya, troops of angels. The Syriac retains the Hebrew words and letters, only leaving out the demonstrative ה  he in the word האלהים  haelohim, thus, (Syriac) baney Elohim. The Arabic nearly copies the Hebrew also, (Arabic) banoa Iloheem; to which, if we give not the literal translation of the Hebrew, we may give what translation we please. Coverdale (1535) translates it, servauntes of God. The Targum supposes that this assembly took place on the day of the great atonement, which occurred once each year. And there was a day of judgment in the beginning of the year; and the troops of angels came, that they might stand in judgment before the Lord. But what are we to make of this whole account? Expositions are endless. That of Mr. Peters appears to me to be at once the most simple and the most judicious: “The Scripture speaks of God after the manner of men, for there is a necessity of condescending to our capacities, and of suiting the revelation to our apprehension. As kings, therefore, transact their most important affairs in a solemn council or assembly, so God is pleased to represent himself as having his council likewise; and as passing the decrees of his providence in an assembly of his holy angels. We have here, in the case of Job, the same grand assembly held, as was before in that of Ahab, 1 Kings 22:6-23; the same host of heaven, called here the sons of God, presenting themselves before Jehovah, as in the vision of Micaiah they are said to stand on his right hand and on his left. A wicked spirit appearing among them, here called Satan or the adversary, and there a lying spirit; both bent on mischief, and ready to do all the hurt they were permitted to do; for both were under the control of his power. The imagery is just the same; and the only difference is in the manner of the relation. That mentioned above, Micaiah, as a prophet, and in the actual exercise of his prophetic office, delivers, as he received it, in a vision. “I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the Host of Heaven standing by him, on his right hand and on his left, and there came forth a Lying Spirit, and stood Before the Lord, and said,
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: asachild on Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 20:44:07
Quote
Job's adversary was not the devil but a HUMAN accuser. The Hebrew "sawtawn" simply means "adversary. Job's accuser was a MAN. See replies 6 and ff on page 1 to this thread.

What human man could have sent fire and burned up sheep and servants or sent a great wind from across the wilderness to blow down a dwelling and kill all but one inside?

Regards,
AsAChild
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: n2thelight on Wed Jan 25, 2012 - 21:24:40
fenton said:
Quote
Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them
a man that was in heaven then he descended to earth to do what he wanted???  and you guys think us pentacostals are out there!  .

Where does it say that the event was taking place in heaven? The sons of God were the godly line of Seth. The Psalms repeatedly say that the people of God are "before His presence" when they worship. Therefore, we are "before the Lord" when we worship though we are not in heaven.

John saw the ANCIENT SERPENT be thrown into the abyss in chains. Peter and Jude say that the evil angels had been chained in Tarturus. They were loosed when Christ appeared.

thinker





well I guess its how you interpret sons of God - --  i take it as angels or heavenly beings  -so if it were they, then where else would they meet.


Psalm 2:7 and Hebrews 1:5 say that God never called an angel a son.

"To which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my son."'

The sons of God were the godly line of Seth. Only men are sons of God. Angels are ministering spirits to His sons.

thinker

"THE SONS OF GOD" IN GEN. 6:2, 4.

It is only by the Divine specific act of creation that any created being can be called "a son of God".  For that which is "born of the flesh is flesh".  God is spirit, and that which is "born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6).  Hence Adam is called a "son of God" in Luke 3:38.  Those "in Christ" having "the new nature" which is by the direct creation of God (2Cor. 5:17.  Eph. 2:10) can be, and are called "sons of God" (John 1:13.  Rom. 8:14, 15.  1John 3:1). (*1)

This is why angels are called "sons of God" in every other place where the expression is used in the Old Testament.  Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7.  Ps. 29:1; 89:6.  Dan. 3:25 (no art.). (*2)  We have no authority or right to take the expression in Gen. 6:2, 4 in any other sense.  Moreover, in Gen. 6:2 the Sept. renders it "angels".

Angels are called "spirits" (Ps. 104:4.  Heb. 1:7, 14), for spirits are created by God.

That there was a fall of the angels is certain from Jude 6.

The nature of their fall is clearly stated in the same verse.  They left their own oijkhthvrion (oiketerion).  This word occurs only in 2Cor. 5:2 and Jude 6, where it is used of the spiritual (or resurrection) body.

The nature of their sin is stated to be "in like manner" to that of the subsequent sins of Sodom and Gomorrha, Jude 7.

The time of their fall is given as having taken place "in the days of Noah" (1Pet. 3:20.  2Pet. 2:7), though there may have been a prior fall which caused the end of "the world that then was" (Gen. 1:1, 2.  2Pet. 3:6).

For this sin they are "reserved unto judgment", 2Pet. 2:4, and are "in prison", 1Pet. 3:19.

Their progeny, called Nephilim (translated "giants"), were monsters of iniquity; and, being superhuman in size and character, had to be destroyed (see Ap. 25).  This was the one and only object of the Flood.

Only Noah and his family had preserved their pedigree pure from Adam (Gen. 6:9, see note).  All the rest had become "corrupt" (shachath) destroyed [as Adamites].  the only remedy was to destroy it (de facto), as it had become destroyed (de jure).  (It is the same word in v. 17 as in vv. 11, 12.)  See further under Ap. 25 on the Nephilim.

This irruption of fallen angels was Satan's first attempt to prevent the coming of the Seed of the woman foretold in gen. 3:15.  If this could be accomplished, God's Word would have failed, and his own doom would be averted.

As soon as it was made known that the Seed of the woman was to come through ABRAHAM, there must have been another irruption, as recorded in Gen. 6:4, "and also after that" (i.e. after the days of Noah, more than 500 years after the first irruption).  The aim of the enemy was to occupy Canaan in advance of Abraham, and so to contest its occupation by his seed.  For, when Abraham entered Canaan, we read (Gen. 12:6) "the Canaanite was then (i.e. already) in the land."

In the same chapter (Gen. 12:10-20) we see Satan's next attempt to interfere with Abraham's seed, and frustrate the purpose of God that it should be in "Isaac".  This attempt was repeated in 20:1-18.

This great conflict may be seen throughout the Bible, and it forms a great and important subject of Biblical study.  In each case the human instrument had his own personal interest to serve, while Satan had his own great object in view.  Hence God had, in each case, to interfere and avert the evil and the danger, of which his servants and people were wholly ignorant.  The following assaults of the great Enemy stand out prominently :--

The destruction of the chosen family by famine, Gen. 50:20.

The destruction of the male line in Israel, Ex. 1:10, 15, &c.  Cp. Ex. 2:5.  Heb. 11:23.

The destruction of the whole nation in Pharaoh's pursuit, Ex. 14.

After David's line was singled out (2Sam. 7), that was the next selected for assault.  Satan's first assault was in the union of Jehoram and Athaliah by Jehoshaphat, notwithstanding 2Chron. 17:1.  Jehoram killed off all his brothers (2Chron. 21:4).

The Arabians slew all his children, except Ahaziah (2Chron. 21:17; 22:1).

When Ahaziah died, Athaliah killed "all the seed royal" (2Chron. 22:10).  the babe Joash alone was rescued; and, for six years, the faithfulness of Jehovah's word was at stake (2Chron. 23:3).

Hezekiah was childless, when a double assault was made by the King of Assyria and the King of Terrors (Isa. 36:1; 38:1).  God's faithfulness was appealed to and relied on (Ps. 136).

In Captivity, Haman was used to attempt the destruction of the whole nation (Est. 3:6, 12, 13.  Cp. 6:1).

Joseph's fear was worked on (Matt. 1:18-20).  Notwithstanding the fact that he was "a just man", and kept the Law, he did not wish to have Mary stoned to death (Deut. 24:1); hence Joseph determined to divorce her.  But God intervened :  "Fear not".

Herod sought the young Child's life (Matt. 2).

At the Temptation, "Cast Thyself down" was Satan's temptation.

At Nazareth, again (Luke 4), there was another attempt to cast Him down and destroy Him.

The two storms on the Lake were other attempts.

At length the cross was reached, and the sepulcher closed; the watch set; and the stone sealed.  But "God raised Him from the dead."  And now, like another Joash, He is seated and expecting (Heb. 10:12, 13), hidden in the house of God on high; and the members of "the one body" are hidden there "in Him" (Col. 3:1-3), like another Jehoshaba; and going forth to witness of His coming, like another Jehoiada (2Chron. 23:3).

The irruption of "the fallen angels" ("sons of God") was the first attempt; and was directed against the whole human race.

When Abraham was called, then he and his seed were attacked.

When David was enthroned, then the royal line were attacked.

And when "the Seed of the woman" Himself came, then the storm burst upon Him.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(*1)  The word "offspring" in Acts 17:28 is quite different.  It is gevnos (genos), which means merely kin or kind, our genus as being originated by God.
(*2)  In Hos. 1:10, it is not beni-ha-Elohim, as here, but beni-el-chai.

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Thu Jan 26, 2012 - 11:38:07
Quote
Job's adversary was not the devil but a HUMAN accuser. The Hebrew "sawtawn" simply means "adversary. Job's accuser was a MAN. See replies 6 and ff on page 1 to this thread.


What human man could have sent fire and burned up sheep and servants or sent a great wind from across the wilderness to blow down a dwelling and kill all but one inside?

Regards,
AsAChild


Please see "sons of God = men or angels" thread with my replies on pages 5-6. I bumped it for you in the Theology Forum.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/'sons-of-god'-men-or-angels/60/

See also Leupold's commmentary on Genesis 6 on the sons of God and how their identification with angels is pagan in origin

http://www.abiblecommentary.com/leuoldscommentaryongenesis.pdf

God NEVER called an angel "My son" (Heb. 1:6). They are the servants of God's sons (Heb. 1:13-14).

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Thu Jan 26, 2012 - 12:22:08
It is interesting, this "sons of God" thing...

thethinker says it refers to the godly line of Seth.  I have no problem with that although I would probably call it Seth's covenant line with God (perhaps identical in meaning).

I also believe that this reasoning is a good indication that the Book of Job PREDATES the flood.  The phrase "sons of God" is not used again until the NT.

Gen_6:2  That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Gen_6:4  There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Job_1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job_2:1  Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job_38:7  When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?



Joh_1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom_8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom_8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Php_2:15  That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jn_3:1  Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn_3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: asachild on Thu Jan 26, 2012 - 12:51:34
Quote
thinker
Please see "sons of God = men or angels" thread with my replies on pages 5-6. I bumped it for you in the Theology Forum.

[url]http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/'sons-of-god'-men-or-angels/60/[/url]

See also Leupold's commmentary on Genesis 6 on the sons of God and how their identification with angels is pagan in origin

[url]http://www.abiblecommentary.com/leuoldscommentaryongenesis.pdf[/url]

God NEVER called an angel "My son" (Heb. 1:6). They are the servants of God's sons (Heb. 1:13-14).


and

Quote
Quote thinker:
Job's adversary was not the devil but a HUMAN accuser. The Hebrew "sawtawn" simply means "adversary. Job's accuser was a MAN. See replies 6 and ff on page 1 to this thread.


My question still remains:

What human man could have sent fire and burned up sheep and servants or sent a great wind from across the wilderness to blow down a dwelling and kill all but one inside?

Regards,
AsAChild
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Thu Jan 26, 2012 - 22:03:14
1Jn 2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Fri Jan 27, 2012 - 12:52:49
Quote
What human man could have sent fire and burned up sheep and servants or sent a great wind from across the wilderness to blow down a dwelling and kill all but one inside?

What human man could change the rod into a serpent, turn the river into blood, smite all Egypt's firstborn and part the red sea?

Satan had no such power EVER to do the things that Job's adversary did. Only a man whom God permitted and empowered could have done those things to Job.

Angels are NOT mentioned at all in the scene.

BTW, Job's adversary whether satan or a man is NOT included in the class designated as "the sons of God."

thinker

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Fri Jan 27, 2012 - 13:02:03
1Jn 2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Exactly! And this includes translators. That we have so many translations and different readings just goes to show how unreliable men are when they handle the word of God.

God called Israel "My son" and he called David, Solomon and Jesus "My son." He said that the rulers of Israel were His sons and that we are His sons by adoption.

But God NEVER spoke to an angel saying "My son" and He NEVER spoke about an angel as a son.

Please show where God ever addressed an angel saying "My son" or where He ever spoke about an angel as His son. Is this too much to ask?


Hebrews 1:6:

"To which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my son'"?

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Fri Jan 27, 2012 - 13:50:42
no i can not show YOU where He ever said that in the KJV, however their are other translation that do say it. but you call them pagan. my commentaries that i have state that more then likely they are angles, but i will just ignore them.    So, cha-ching you win.

 ::cheerleader::
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Fri Jan 27, 2012 - 17:51:39
no i can not show YOU where He ever said that in the KJV, however their are other translation that do say it. but you call them pagan. my commentaries that i have state that more then likely they are angles, but i will just ignore them.    So, cha-ching you win.

 ::cheerleader::

You do not understand my point. There are no narratives in any translation of the scripture where God is speaking to an angel saying, "You are my son."

Angels were created to serve God's sons (Hebrews 1:14). They are NOT sons themselves. They came to serve Jesus when He agonized in the garden. They served Jesus again when He arse from the dead. An angel came and served Peter when he was in prison.

Hebrews says that Christ died for sons and that angels help carry out salvation for sons (1:14-2:10). If angels were sons, then Christ died for them too which He did not.

Again the belief that angels are sons of God is pagan in origin and many of our "translations" have been influenced by it.

thinker



Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Freya on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 02:20:33
There's so much evil in this world today though.  I mean, evil is nothing new.  There are clear examples of it throughout history and the devil doesn't need to be physically present for evil to be present.  But there is some seriously, insanely evil things happening out there right now that only the devil himself could be behind.  I would give some examples but I'd probably just be labelled a conspiracy theorist.

And what about the examples of God telling His people not to practice witchcraft throughout the old testament.  What effect would witchcraft have if Satan were bound? 

And what of the modern cases of possession?

And doesn't the binding of Satan happen at the same time as the 1000-year reign of Christ as noted in Revelation 20?  If Christ had not yet fulfilled prophecy at the time you claim the devil was bound (right after the fall in Eden), how does your theory fit in with what is said in Revelation 20?

Blessings
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 13:04:06
There's so much evil in this world today though.  I mean, evil is nothing new.  There are clear examples of it throughout history and the devil doesn't need to be physically present for evil to be present.  But there is some seriously, insanely evil things happening out there right now that only the devil himself could be behind.  I would give some examples but I'd probably just be labelled a conspiracy theorist.

And what about the examples of God telling His people not to practice witchcraft throughout the old testament.  What effect would witchcraft have if Satan were bound? 

And what of the modern cases of possession?

And doesn't the binding of Satan happen at the same time as the 1000-year reign of Christ as noted in Revelation 20?  If Christ had not yet fulfilled prophecy at the time you claim the devil was bound (right after the fall in Eden), how does your theory fit in with what is said in Revelation 20?

Blessings

Paul said that witchcraft was a work of the flesh (Galatians 5). The witch of Endor by her soothsaying raised up Samuel from the dead.

If you say that she did it by the power of satan, then the resurrection of Jesus was no big deal for God did no more than what satan can do. So if she did not raise up Samuel by satan's power, then by whose power did she raise up Samuel?

ALL powers come from God! Satan is in the lake of fire!

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Freya on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 13:23:15
But what about my last question?  ???
You claim that the 1000-year binding of Satan occurred right after the fall in Eden.  Revelation 20 makes it clear that not only did the binding of Satan occur at the same time as the reign of Christ, but that prior to the 1000 years, the mark of the beast had already been present and more importantly, Christ had fulfilled the prophecies.


Revelation 20:4 (NASB)

"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Revelation 20:7 (NASB)

"When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,"


If the 1000-year binding of Satan began right after the fall in Eden as you claim, how was the mark of the beast (who was given his power from the dragon) present during that time?  And how were there people who had given testimony of Jesus before Jesus fulfilled the prophecies?  
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 13:28:47
But what about my last question?  ???


Revelation 20:4 (NASB)

"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Revelation 20:7 (NASB)

"When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,"


If the 1000-year binding of Satan began right after the fall in Eden, how was the mark of the beast (who was given his power from the dragon) present during that time?  And how were there people who had given testimony of Jesus before Jesus fulfilled the prophecies? 

Please read the opening post to this thread and the posts which follow. Your questions have been answered already. Just read and pick something to talk about.

Thanks,

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Freya on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 13:34:38
But what about my last question?  ???


Revelation 20:4 (NASB)

"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Revelation 20:7 (NASB)

"When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,"


If the 1000-year binding of Satan began right after the fall in Eden, how was the mark of the beast (who was given his power from the dragon) present during that time?  And how were there people who had given testimony of Jesus before Jesus fulfilled the prophecies?  

Please read the opening post to this thread and the posts which follow. Your questions have been answered already. Just read and pick something to talk about.

Thanks,

thinker

I have read the first post and I realize that you are claiming that Revelation 20 took place back in time, but what I'm wondering is how it's possible for Satan to have been bound during the Old Testament period when Revelation 20 makes it clear that there were people who had given testimony of Jesus before the 1000 years.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 13:42:56
But what about my last question?  ???


Revelation 20:4 (NASB)

"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Revelation 20:7 (NASB)

"When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,"


If the 1000-year binding of Satan began right after the fall in Eden, how was the mark of the beast (who was given his power from the dragon) present during that time?  And how were there people who had given testimony of Jesus before Jesus fulfilled the prophecies?  

Please read the opening post to this thread and the posts which follow. Your questions have been answered already. Just read and pick something to talk about.

Thanks,

thinker

I have read the first post and I realize that you are claiming that Revelation 20 took place back in time, but what I'm wondering is how it's possible for Satan to have been bound during the Old Testament period when Revelation 20 makes it clear that there were people who had given testimony of Jesus before the 1000 years.

So you would not accept that Moses suffered for Christ with the people of God (Heb. 11:25)?

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Freya on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 13:47:56
But what about my last question?  ???


Revelation 20:4 (NASB)

"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

Revelation 20:7 (NASB)

"When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,"


If the 1000-year binding of Satan began right after the fall in Eden, how was the mark of the beast (who was given his power from the dragon) present during that time?  And how were there people who had given testimony of Jesus before Jesus fulfilled the prophecies?  

Please read the opening post to this thread and the posts which follow. Your questions have been answered already. Just read and pick something to talk about.

Thanks,

thinker

I have read the first post and I realize that you are claiming that Revelation 20 took place back in time, but what I'm wondering is how it's possible for Satan to have been bound during the Old Testament period when Revelation 20 makes it clear that there were people who had given testimony of Jesus before the 1000 years.

So you would not accept that Moses suffered for Christ with the people of God (Heb. 11:25)?

thinker

But in using that as an example, are you saying that Satan was bound AFTER the time of Moses?

I guess a more important question in this matter is do you believe the 1000-year binding Satan happens in parallel with the 1000-year reign of Christ?
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: raggthyme on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 13:51:25


I have read the first post and I realize that you are claiming that Revelation 20 took place back in time, but what I'm wondering is how it's possible for Satan to have been bound during the Old Testament period when Revelation 20 makes it clear that there were people who had given testimony of Jesus before the 1000 years.

Hi Freya!

I am not necessarily sure myself about the 1000 years being during that time. But not for the same reason you are questioning it. People had the testimony of Jesus prior to the incarnation, as all these having died in faith saw the promises afar off and awaited the fulfillment of them. Jesus said, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. It's all ultimately pointing to Him. My question for thinker was this:

Who are the "they" who lived and reigned with Christ during the thousand years, seeing that those who died prior to the cross went to hades, awaiting the resurrection? I am willing to accept this view if I can get a sufficient, scriptural answer to this. It's been bugging me.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 14:10:45
freya said:
Quote
But in using that as an example, are you saying that Satan was bound AFTER the time of Moses?

I guess a more important question in this matter is do you believe the 1000-year binding Satan happens in parallel with the 1000-year reign of Christ?

Peter and Jude said that the evil angels had been bound in chains in Tarturus. Tarturus was the abyss. They were loosed when Christ appeared and then were judged and thrown into the lake of fire at Christ's second coming in ad70.

The thousand year binding WAS parallel with the reign of Christ. Paul said that at Christ's second coming Christ's reign ends and He becomes a subject Himself (1 Cor. 15:26-28).

How can Christ's reign begin when He comes when Paul said it ends when he comes?

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 15:08:26
freya said:
Quote
But in using that as an example, are you saying that Satan was bound AFTER the time of Moses?

I guess a more important question in this matter is do you believe the 1000-year binding Satan happens in parallel with the 1000-year reign of Christ?

Peter and Jude said that the evil angels had been bound in chains in Tarturus. Tarturus was the abyss. They were loosed when Christ appeared and then were judged and thrown into the lake of fire at Christ's second coming in ad70.

The thousand year binding WAS parallel with the reign of Christ. Paul said that at Christ's second coming Christ's reign ends and He becomes a subject Himself (1 Cor. 15:26-28).

so are you saying that satan was bound while Jesus was here on earth?
fenton

How can Christ's reign begin when He comes when Paul said it ends when he comes?

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: raggthyme on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 15:38:13

so are you saying that satan was bound while Jesus was here on earth?
fenton


In the earlier posts of this thread it seems that he refers to the "little season" of Satan's loosing as including the time Jesus walked the earth, up until 70ad. So no, Satan was not bound while Jesus was on earth, that's why we see so much Satanic activity (casting out of demons and such) during that generation.

I may be mistaking, but that's what I've gathered from reading these posts.  ::smile:: 
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 16:46:27

so are you saying that satan was bound while Jesus was here on earth?
fenton


In the earlier posts of this thread it seems that he refers to the "little season" of Satan's loosing as including the time Jesus walked the earth, up until 70ad. So no, Satan was not bound while Jesus was on earth, that's why we see so much Satanic activity (casting out of demons and such) during that generation.

I may be mistaking, but that's what I've gathered from reading these posts.  ::smile:: 

ok thanks,
isnt there still demonic activity today? I believe there is, if not more than back then! jmo
fenton
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: raggthyme on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 17:13:41

so are you saying that satan was bound while Jesus was here on earth?
fenton


In the earlier posts of this thread it seems that he refers to the "little season" of Satan's loosing as including the time Jesus walked the earth, up until 70ad. So no, Satan was not bound while Jesus was on earth, that's why we see so much Satanic activity (casting out of demons and such) during that generation.

I may be mistaking, but that's what I've gathered from reading these posts.  ::smile:: 

ok thanks,
isnt there still demonic activity today? I believe there is, if not more than back then! jmo
fenton

I haven't seen it myself, but there are people who have been missionaries in places like Haiti who would agree with you. I don't know because I haven't seen it for myself. Maybe those folks have mental illnesses or drug-induced psychosis etc. I don't know.

But I can say for myself, being that I came out of a life of psychedelic drug abuse, that I felt like I was demonically possessed. But looking back I believe that I was suffering from the consequences of having continuously poisoned myself, and from the trauma of all those bad "trips."

The moment I asked Jesus Christ to save me He healed me, I no longer heard the voices or felt the insanity. So all this to say, maybe it's something other than demons that people are experiencing.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 18:06:16
fenton said:
Quote
so are you saying that satan was bound while Jesus was here on earth?
fenton

See all my posts on this thread. Satan was loosed around the time Jesus appeared. This was the "little season." They were near the end of the "little season" for Jesus said, "NOW is the judgment of this world. NOW is the prince of this world cast out."

According to the Revelation the judgment of the [Jewish] world and of satan is at the end of the "little season." Therefore, they were near the end of the "little season."

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 18:41:29

so are you saying that satan was bound while Jesus was here on earth?
fenton


In the earlier posts of this thread it seems that he refers to the "little season" of Satan's loosing as including the time Jesus walked the earth, up until 70ad. So no, Satan was not bound while Jesus was on earth, that's why we see so much Satanic activity (casting out of demons and such) during that generation.

I may be mistaking, but that's what I've gathered from reading these posts.  ::smile:: 

OK thanks,
isn't there still demonic activity today? I believe there is, if not more than back then! jmo
fenton

I haven't seen it myself, but there are people who have been missionaries in places like Haiti who would agree with you. I don't know because I haven't seen it for myself. Maybe those folks have mental illnesses or drug-induced psychosis etc. I don't know.

But I can say for myself, being that I came out of a life of psychedelic drug abuse, that I felt like I was demonically possessed. But looking back I believe that I was suffering from the consequences of having continuously poisoned myself, and from the trauma of all those bad "trips."

The moment I asked Jesus Christ to save me He healed me, I no longer heard the voices or felt the insanity. So all this to say, maybe it's something other than demons that people are experiencing.

could be, but i believe in it, Ive seen it
80lb girl biting , kicking, screaming and throwing 2 very big deacons around, once they got the demon to come out she was SO totally different, the ladies of the church didn't leave her alone for one minute until they could talk to her and help her understand what had happened,  then she gave her life to Christ.  Don't know what happened to her after discipleship camp was over, but it was an eye opening experience. that was the worst that i have seen. being a Christan in my line of work i have seen some really weird stuff.
  I have really severe headaches, sometimes 3 or 4 a day, well when i start praying and claiming all the scriptures that i can remember, i start getting sick and throwing up, within minutes of throwing up the HA subsides! i know ill catch all kinds of you know what for posting this, but it is the honest truth
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 19:10:12

so are you saying that satan was bound while Jesus was here on earth?
fenton


In the earlier posts of this thread it seems that he refers to the "little season" of Satan's loosing as including the time Jesus walked the earth, up until 70ad. So no, Satan was not bound while Jesus was on earth, that's why we see so much Satanic activity (casting out of demons and such) during that generation.

I may be mistaking, but that's what I've gathered from reading these posts.  ::smile::  

OK thanks,
isn't there still demonic activity today? I believe there is, if not more than back then! jmo
fenton

I haven't seen it myself, but there are people who have been missionaries in places like Haiti who would agree with you. I don't know because I haven't seen it for myself. Maybe those folks have mental illnesses or drug-induced psychosis etc. I don't know.

But I can say for myself, being that I came out of a life of psychedelic drug abuse, that I felt like I was demonically possessed. But looking back I believe that I was suffering from the consequences of having continuously poisoned myself, and from the trauma of all those bad "trips."

The moment I asked Jesus Christ to save me He healed me, I no longer heard the voices or felt the insanity. So all this to say, maybe it's something other than demons that people are experiencing.

could be, but i believe in it, Ive seen it
80lb girl biting , kicking, screaming and throwing 2 very big deacons around, once they got the demon to come out she was SO totally different, the ladies of the church didn't leave her alone for one minute until they could talk to her and help her understand what had happened,  then she gave her life to Christ.  Don't know what happened to her after discipleship camp was over, but it was an eye opening experience. that was the worst that i have seen. being a Christan in my line of work i have seen some really weird stuff.
  I have really severe headaches, sometimes 3 or 4 a day, well when i start praying and claiming all the scriptures that i can remember, i start getting sick and throwing up, within minutes of throwing up the HA subsides! i know ill catch all kinds of you know what for posting this, but it is the honest truth

Sounds more to me that Jesus saved her from the abuse of some drugs like cannibas, cocaine or amphetamines. The word for "sorcery" in Galatians 5 refers to these kinds of substances. Or maybe He saved her from neurocognitive deficits of some kind. I rejoice that Jesus saved her despite that many gullible christians here just assume that it's demons even though this is not possible. It is not possible because Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Therefore, the girl was healed and saved by Jesus from either substance abuse or neurological problems.

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 19:17:18

so are you saying that satan was bound while Jesus was here on earth?
fenton


In the earlier posts of this thread it seems that he refers to the "little season" of Satan's loosing as including the time Jesus walked the earth, up until 70ad. So no, Satan was not bound while Jesus was on earth, that's why we see so much Satanic activity (casting out of demons and such) during that generation.

I may be mistaking, but that's what I've gathered from reading these posts.  ::smile:: 

OK thanks,
isn't there still demonic activity today? I believe there is, if not more than back then! jmo
fenton

I haven't seen it myself, but there are people who have been missionaries in places like Haiti who would agree with you. I don't know because I haven't seen it for myself. Maybe those folks have mental illnesses or drug-induced psychosis etc. I don't know.

But I can say for myself, being that I came out of a life of psychedelic drug abuse, that I felt like I was demonically possessed. But looking back I believe that I was suffering from the consequences of having continuously poisoned myself, and from the trauma of all those bad "trips."

The moment I asked Jesus Christ to save me He healed me, I no longer heard the voices or felt the insanity. So all this to say, maybe it's something other than demons that people are experiencing.

could be, but i believe in it, Ive seen it
80lb girl biting , kicking, screaming and throwing 2 very big deacons around, once they got the demon to come out she was SO totally different, the ladies of the church didn't leave her alone for one minute until they could talk to her and help her understand what had happened,  then she gave her life to Christ.  Don't know what happened to her after discipleship camp was over, but it was an eye opening experience. that was the worst that i have seen. being a Christan in my line of work i have seen some really weird stuff.
  I have really severe headaches, sometimes 3 or 4 a day, well when i start praying and claiming all the scriptures that i can remember, i start getting sick and throwing up, within minutes of throwing up the HA subsides! i know ill catch all kinds of you know what for posting this, but it is the honest truth

The girl was calm because she was spiritually healed. Christ heals minds!

Did the demons come out of her and talk to you? And did they go find a herd of pigs and go drown themselves?

That would convince me if there were real demons indwelling a person. Otherwise, all it is is a great healing of a mental illness. Which is why some are gifted enough to believe God's power to heal others of their demons of the mind.

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 19:18:57

so are you saying that satan was bound while Jesus was here on earth?
fenton


In the earlier posts of this thread it seems that he refers to the "little season" of Satan's loosing as including the time Jesus walked the earth, up until 70ad. So no, Satan was not bound while Jesus was on earth, that's why we see so much Satanic activity (casting out of demons and such) during that generation.

I may be mistaking, but that's what I've gathered from reading these posts.  ::smile::  

OK thanks,
isn't there still demonic activity today? I believe there is, if not more than back then! jmo
fenton

I haven't seen it myself, but there are people who have been missionaries in places like Haiti who would agree with you. I don't know because I haven't seen it for myself. Maybe those folks have mental illnesses or drug-induced psychosis etc. I don't know.

But I can say for myself, being that I came out of a life of psychedelic drug abuse, that I felt like I was demonically possessed. But looking back I believe that I was suffering from the consequences of having continuously poisoned myself, and from the trauma of all those bad "trips."

The moment I asked Jesus Christ to save me He healed me, I no longer heard the voices or felt the insanity. So all this to say, maybe it's something other than demons that people are experiencing.

could be, but i believe in it, Ive seen it
80lb girl biting , kicking, screaming and throwing 2 very big deacons around, once they got the demon to come out she was SO totally different, the ladies of the church didn't leave her alone for one minute until they could talk to her and help her understand what had happened,  then she gave her life to Christ.  Don't know what happened to her after discipleship camp was over, but it was an eye opening experience. that was the worst that i have seen. being a Christan in my line of work i have seen some really weird stuff.
  I have really severe headaches, sometimes 3 or 4 a day, well when i start praying and claiming all the scriptures that i can remember, i start getting sick and throwing up, within minutes of throwing up the HA subsides! i know ill catch all kinds of you know what for posting this, but it is the honest truth

Sounds more to me that Jesus saved her from the abuse of some drugs like cannibas, cocaine or amphetamines. The word for "sorcery" in Galatians 5 refers to these kinds of substances. Or maybe He saved her from neurocognitive deficits of some kind. I rejoice that Jesus saved her despite that many gullible christians here just assume that it's demons even though this is not possible. It is not possible because Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Therefore, the girl was healed and saved by Jesus from either substance abuse or neurological problems.

thinker

I was thinking along the same lines thinker!  ::cheers::
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 19:19:16

so are you saying that satan was bound while Jesus was here on earth?
fenton


In the earlier posts of this thread it seems that he refers to the "little season" of Satan's loosing as including the time Jesus walked the earth, up until 70ad. So no, Satan was not bound while Jesus was on earth, that's why we see so much Satanic activity (casting out of demons and such) during that generation.

I may be mistaking, but that's what I've gathered from reading these posts.  ::smile::  

OK thanks,
isn't there still demonic activity today? I believe there is, if not more than back then! jmo
fenton

I haven't seen it myself, but there are people who have been missionaries in places like Haiti who would agree with you. I don't know because I haven't seen it for myself. Maybe those folks have mental illnesses or drug-induced psychosis etc. I don't know.

But I can say for myself, being that I came out of a life of psychedelic drug abuse, that I felt like I was demonically possessed. But looking back I believe that I was suffering from the consequences of having continuously poisoned myself, and from the trauma of all those bad "trips."

The moment I asked Jesus Christ to save me He healed me, I no longer heard the voices or felt the insanity. So all this to say, maybe it's something other than demons that people are experiencing.

could be, but i believe in it, Ive seen it
80lb girl biting , kicking, screaming and throwing 2 very big deacons around, once they got the demon to come out she was SO totally different, the ladies of the church didn't leave her alone for one minute until they could talk to her and help her understand what had happened,  then she gave her life to Christ.  Don't know what happened to her after discipleship camp was over, but it was an eye opening experience. that was the worst that i have seen. being a Christan in my line of work i have seen some really weird stuff.
  I have really severe headaches, sometimes 3 or 4 a day, well when i start praying and claiming all the scriptures that i can remember, i start getting sick and throwing up, within minutes of throwing up the HA subsides! i know ill catch all kinds of you know what for posting this, but it is the honest truth

Sounds more to me that Jesus saved her from the abuse of some drugs like cannibas, cocaine or amphetamines. The word for "sorcery" in Galatians 5 refers to these kinds of substances. Or maybe He saved her from neurocognitive deficits of some kind. I rejoice that Jesus saved her despite that many gullible christians here just assume that it's demons even though this is not possible. It is not possible because Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Therefore, the girl was healed and saved by Jesus from either substance abuse or neurological problems.

thinker

ok
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 19:20:07

so are you saying that satan was bound while Jesus was here on earth?
fenton


In the earlier posts of this thread it seems that he refers to the "little season" of Satan's loosing as including the time Jesus walked the earth, up until 70ad. So no, Satan was not bound while Jesus was on earth, that's why we see so much Satanic activity (casting out of demons and such) during that generation.

I may be mistaking, but that's what I've gathered from reading these posts.  ::smile:: 

OK thanks,
isn't there still demonic activity today? I believe there is, if not more than back then! jmo
fenton

I haven't seen it myself, but there are people who have been missionaries in places like Haiti who would agree with you. I don't know because I haven't seen it for myself. Maybe those folks have mental illnesses or drug-induced psychosis etc. I don't know.

But I can say for myself, being that I came out of a life of psychedelic drug abuse, that I felt like I was demonically possessed. But looking back I believe that I was suffering from the consequences of having continuously poisoned myself, and from the trauma of all those bad "trips."

The moment I asked Jesus Christ to save me He healed me, I no longer heard the voices or felt the insanity. So all this to say, maybe it's something other than demons that people are experiencing.

could be, but i believe in it, Ive seen it
80lb girl biting , kicking, screaming and throwing 2 very big deacons around, once they got the demon to come out she was SO totally different, the ladies of the church didn't leave her alone for one minute until they could talk to her and help her understand what had happened,  then she gave her life to Christ.  Don't know what happened to her after discipleship camp was over, but it was an eye opening experience. that was the worst that i have seen. being a Christan in my line of work i have seen some really weird stuff.
  I have really severe headaches, sometimes 3 or 4 a day, well when i start praying and claiming all the scriptures that i can remember, i start getting sick and throwing up, within minutes of throwing up the HA subsides! i know ill catch all kinds of you know what for posting this, but it is the honest truth

The girl was calm because she was spiritually healed. Christ heals minds!

Did the demons come out of her and talk to you? And did they go find a herd of pigs and go drown themselves?

That would convince me if there were real demons indwelling a person. Otherwise, all it is is a great healing of a mental illness. Which is why some are gifted enough to believe God's power to heal others of their demons of the mind.




ok
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 19:23:22

so are you saying that satan was bound while Jesus was here on earth?
fenton


In the earlier posts of this thread it seems that he refers to the "little season" of Satan's loosing as including the time Jesus walked the earth, up until 70ad. So no, Satan was not bound while Jesus was on earth, that's why we see so much Satanic activity (casting out of demons and such) during that generation.

I may be mistaking, but that's what I've gathered from reading these posts.  ::smile::  

OK thanks,
isn't there still demonic activity today? I believe there is, if not more than back then! jmo
fenton

I haven't seen it myself, but there are people who have been missionaries in places like Haiti who would agree with you. I don't know because I haven't seen it for myself. Maybe those folks have mental illnesses or drug-induced psychosis etc. I don't know.

But I can say for myself, being that I came out of a life of psychedelic drug abuse, that I felt like I was demonically possessed. But looking back I believe that I was suffering from the consequences of having continuously poisoned myself, and from the trauma of all those bad "trips."

The moment I asked Jesus Christ to save me He healed me, I no longer heard the voices or felt the insanity. So all this to say, maybe it's something other than demons that people are experiencing.

could be, but i believe in it, Ive seen it
80lb girl biting , kicking, screaming and throwing 2 very big deacons around, once they got the demon to come out she was SO totally different, the ladies of the church didn't leave her alone for one minute until they could talk to her and help her understand what had happened,  then she gave her life to Christ.  Don't know what happened to her after discipleship camp was over, but it was an eye opening experience. that was the worst that i have seen. being a Christan in my line of work i have seen some really weird stuff.
  I have really severe headaches, sometimes 3 or 4 a day, well when i start praying and claiming all the scriptures that i can remember, i start getting sick and throwing up, within minutes of throwing up the HA subsides! i know ill catch all kinds of you know what for posting this, but it is the honest truth

Sounds more to me that Jesus saved her from the abuse of some drugs like cannibas, cocaine or amphetamines. The word for "sorcery" in Galatians 5 refers to these kinds of substances. Or maybe He saved her from neurocognitive deficits of some kind. I rejoice that Jesus saved her despite that many gullible christians here just assume that it's demons even though this is not possible. It is not possible because Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Therefore, the girl was healed and saved by Jesus from either substance abuse or neurological problems.

thinker

I was thinking along the same lines thinker!  ::cheers::


great minds think alike   ::lookaround::
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: daq on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 20:00:11
great minds think alike   ::lookaround::

Yes unfortunately they do fenton ...

Luke 11:24-26 KJV
24. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

And don't rile 'em up too much cuz they's probly five more!  ::crackup::
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Grapesicle on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 20:39:48
I have personally encountered demon possessed people; people who knew my name and things about me that were impossible for them to know. These were people whom I've never met and said things about me only I knew. They also manifested supernatural abilities that will knock the socks off the people here who deny Satan and his fallen angelic army. Bottom line is this...if you believe that Satan and his demons are not doing their dirty deeds in this world TODAY, then you are already DECEIVED and the serpent of old has blinded your mind and have indoctrinated you with lies.

In Christ,
Grapesicle


Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: daq on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 21:02:35
I have personally encountered demon possessed people; people who knew my name and things about me that were impossible for them to know. These were people whom I've never met and said things about me only I knew. They also manifested supernatural abilities that will knock the socks off the people here who deny Satan and his fallen angelic army. Bottom line is this...if you believe that Satan and his demons are not doing their dirty deeds in this world TODAY, then you are already DECEIVED and the serpent of old has blinded your mind and have indoctrinated you with lies.

In Christ,
Grapesicle

Amen, and the same modern "psychologists" that tell people its just "cognative this" or "neuro psychosis that" are the same psychotic buffoons who teach people that the "inner spirit-man self" is "perfect and beautiful" and that people should listen to their "inner voice". The same ones are they who teach and believe that mankind is one giant "organic amoeba village" so that they are justified when "the brains" decide to kill the "cancerous" cells that might infect the rest of the "body" of mankind. In effect man has perverted the Scripture so much so that he does not even believe it is possible for himself to be deceived. It is all about control: and if there is a SPIRIT realm and a CREATOR then man is nothing more than PROPERTY either way, (ye are not your own but bought with a price).  ::smile::
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 21:03:59
I have personally encountered demon possessed people; people who knew my name and things about me that were impossible for them to know. These were people whom I've never met and said things about me only I knew. They also manifested supernatural abilities that will knock the socks off the people here who deny Satan and his fallen angelic army. Bottom line is this...if you believe that Satan and his demons are not doing their dirty deeds in this world TODAY, then you are already DECEIVED and the serpent of old has blinded your mind and have indoctrinated you with lies.

In Christ,
Grapesicle




There's only one "bottom line" and it's God's word:

“Behold, I have created the blacksmith
Who blows the coals in the fire,
Who brings forth an instrument for his work;
And I have created the spoiler to destroy.
17 No weapon formed against you shall prosper,
And every tongue which rises against you in judgment
You shall condemn.
This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord,
And their righteousness is from Me,
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: raggthyme on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 21:15:48
I have personally encountered demon possessed people; people who knew my name and things about me that were impossible for them to know. These were people whom I've never met and said things about me only I knew. They also manifested supernatural abilities that will knock the socks off the people here who deny Satan and his fallen angelic army. Bottom line is this...if you believe that Satan and his demons are not doing their dirty deeds in this world TODAY, then you are already DECEIVED and the serpent of old has blinded your mind and have indoctrinated you with lies.

In Christ,
Grapesicle




I can also tell you that when I was taking certain psychedelics with my husband before I was a believer we were able to read each others minds. Totally freaked us out! I know that sounds ridiculous but I have spoken with others who say they sat in a car full of people and carried on a conversation mentally. Folks, demons are not the only reason people have strange and supernatural experiences. When you open up those places in the mind that aren't meant to be opened all sorts of bizarre things can happen. I never had someone exorcise a demon from me either. So it was the drugs in my case. That's all I'm saying... not to detract from your experience.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 21:18:39
I have personally encountered demon possessed people; people who knew my name and things about me that were impossible for them to know. These were people whom I've never met and said things about me only I knew. They also manifested supernatural abilities that will knock the socks off the people here who deny Satan and his fallen angelic army. Bottom line is this...if you believe that Satan and his demons are not doing their dirty deeds in this world TODAY, then you are already DECEIVED and the serpent of old has blinded your mind and have indoctrinated you with lies.

In Christ,
Grapesicle

Amen, and the same modern "psychologists" that tell people its just "cognative this" or "neuro psychosis that" are the same psychotic buffoons who teach people that the "inner spirit-man self" is "perfect and beautiful" and that people should listen to their "inner voice". The same ones are they who teach and believe that mankind is one giant "organic amoeba village" so that they are justified when "the brains" decide to kill the "cancerous" cells that might infect the rest of the "body" of mankind. In effect man has perverted the Scripture so much so that he does not even believe it is possible for himself to be deceived. It is all about control: and if there is a SPIRIT realm and a CREATOR then man is nothing more than PROPERTY either way, (ye are not your own but bought with a price).  ::smile::

daq,

John said that Christ came to DESTROY the works of the devil. Did He fail?

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Sat Jan 28, 2012 - 21:26:40
I have personally encountered demon possessed people; people who knew my name and things about me that were impossible for them to know. These were people whom I've never met and said things about me only I knew. They also manifested supernatural abilities that will knock the socks off the people here who deny Satan and his fallen angelic army. Bottom line is this...if you believe that Satan and his demons are not doing their dirty deeds in this world TODAY, then you are already DECEIVED and the serpent of old has blinded your mind and have indoctrinated you with lies.

In Christ,
Grapesicle




John said that Christ came to DESTROY the works of the devil. Did Christ fail?

It is a MEDICAL fact that medication and psycho therapy have cured what you call "demon possession." My wife has worked at a Christian counseling center for 25 years and has seen a lot of the things you have seen and can testify that proper biblical counseling and medications cure these things. Sometimes Christ cures it miraculously in salvation. But if it can be cured gradually with meds and therappy which is has, then it cannot be demon possession.

Christ DESTROYED the works of the devil. He has NOTHING to do humanity today. He has power over no one.

Satan is in the lake of fire!


thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: daq on Sun Jan 29, 2012 - 12:19:48
I have personally encountered demon possessed people; people who knew my name and things about me that were impossible for them to know. These were people whom I've never met and said things about me only I knew. They also manifested supernatural abilities that will knock the socks off the people here who deny Satan and his fallen angelic army. Bottom line is this...if you believe that Satan and his demons are not doing their dirty deeds in this world TODAY, then you are already DECEIVED and the serpent of old has blinded your mind and have indoctrinated you with lies.

In Christ,
Grapesicle

John said that Christ came to DESTROY the works of the devil. Did Christ fail?

It is a MEDICAL fact that medication and psycho therapy have cured what you call "demon possession." My wife has worked at a Christian counseling center for 25 years and has seen a lot of the things you have seen and can testify that proper biblical counseling and medications cure these things. Sometimes Christ cures it miraculously in salvation. But if it can be cured gradually with meds and therappy which is has, then it cannot be demon possession.

Christ DESTROYED the works of the devil. He has NOTHING to do humanity today. He has power over no one.

Satan is in the lake of fire!


thinker

I have personally encountered demon possessed people; people who knew my name and things about me that were impossible for them to know. These were people whom I've never met and said things about me only I knew. They also manifested supernatural abilities that will knock the socks off the people here who deny Satan and his fallen angelic army. Bottom line is this...if you believe that Satan and his demons are not doing their dirty deeds in this world TODAY, then you are already DECEIVED and the serpent of old has blinded your mind and have indoctrinated you with lies.

In Christ,
Grapesicle

Amen, and the same modern "psychologists" that tell people its just "cognative this" or "neuro psychosis that" are the same psychotic buffoons who teach people that the "inner spirit-man self" is "perfect and beautiful" and that people should listen to their "inner voice". The same ones are they who teach and believe that mankind is one giant "organic amoeba village" so that they are justified when "the brains" decide to kill the "cancerous" cells that might infect the rest of the "body" of mankind. In effect man has perverted the Scripture so much so that he does not even believe it is possible for himself to be deceived. It is all about control: and if there is a SPIRIT realm and a CREATOR then man is nothing more than PROPERTY either way, (ye are not your own but bought with a price).  ::smile::

daq,

John said that Christ came to DESTROY the works of the devil. Did He fail?

thinker

It really comes down to whether deep inside one believes that Christ was Deity in the flesh, or not, during his physical ministry. If he was Deity in the flesh then his words are timeless, and outside of our time domain constraints, and so his words would then apply to all generations of all time. And if he was Deity in the flesh before the Cross then the statements made in the Gospel accounts theoretically do not become relevant in us until the first time we read them; for that is when the seed of the Word is sown to us. Also the words of Christ reverberate like "seven thunders which utter their voices" and this is one of the reasons why we, as believers, must continue in our discipleship because each time we understand something new it reverberates throughout ALL of our doctrine like a mild quaking of the earth; and ALL of our doctrine must be unified into one complete, coherent, unblemished understanding. This is the beauty of the Book of the Sevenfold Revelation of Yeshua because it is the final doctrinal standard by which all of the preceding doctrines may be inspected and corrected. This also is why the Book of the Revelation is full of statements combined from the whole of the Scripture deposit of wealth and knowledge in the Word. And this is why the Book of the Revelation is so completely visionary and supernal in its nature yet states; "blessed are those who KEEP THE SAYINGS of this book" for it is the final "index key" sort of speak.

Yet even if one does not truly believe deep inside that Yeshua was Deity incarnate then there is also the following information which also witnesses to the same truth: Yeshua states that he is "IN HEAVEN" while he walked the earth in his physical body. If one believes this statement then there is only one reason why this may be found to be true; and that is because the Spirit of the Father Theou rested upon him from the time of his baptism. And if the Spirit of YHWH rested upon him, and if indeed he was IN HEAVEN during his physical ministry, then again his words and doctrine from the Gospel accounts are OUTSIDE OF TIME.

Matthew 3:16 KJV
16. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God (Pneuma tou Theou) descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

John 10:30 KJV
30. I and my Father are one.

John 14:8-9 KJV
8. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9. Jesus saith unto him, have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

John 3:12-13 KJV
12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Therefore, even if one does not believe that Yeshua was in fact Deity in the flesh; then that one should take heed to the fact that the Spirit of the Theou rested upon Yeshua the Son. And, if so, then his words are ETERNAL, and again, outside of TIME. How then does Yeshua cast out devils from a person who was not yet born? such as all of us here in the present? For this is one of the duties of the High Priest:

Leviticus 16:10-14 RSV
10. but the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel.
11. "Aaron shall present the bull as a sin offering for himself, and shall make atonement for himself and for his house; he shall kill the bull as a sin offering for himself.
12. And he shall take a censer full of coals of fire from the altar before the Lord, and two handfuls of sweet incense beaten small; and he shall bring it within the veil
13. and put the incense on the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat which is upon the testimony, lest he die;
14. and he shall take some of the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it with his finger on the front of the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat he shall sprinkle the blood with his finger seven times.

The sprinkling of the blood of Atonement is performed by the FINGER of the High Priest in the Great Day of Atonement and cleansing of the holy-holies and secondary sanctuary or holy place. Who and what is the secondary sanctuary or "tent of the meeting" place? It is the saints and the people of YHWH; the "tent of the mow`ed" or "meeting place" resides with us in the midst of our impurities and uncleanness.

Leviticus 16:15-16 KJV
15. "Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering which is for the people, and bring its blood within the veil, and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it upon the mercy seat and before the mercy seat;  
16. thus he shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel, and because of their transgressions, all their sins; and so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which abides with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.

Luke 11:18-20 KJV
18. If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
19. And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
20. But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

No doubt the opening statement of Luke 11:20 concerns the High Priest, the very Finger of YHWH, and the Yom Kippur, Day of Atonement, ceremonies and cleansing of the entire sanctuary. Therefore what it means is that THIS IS WHEN THE KINGDOM OF THE THEOU HAS COME UPON YOU! For this is the duty only of the High Priest and Yeshua is our High Priest according to the eternal order Melchizedek.

If one believes that Satan was cast out all at once, at a single point in time nearly two thousand years ago; then that one has simply concocted for himself another one of the many forms of the "free ride" without allowing himself true accountability to the Scripture. This is another problem with the "Full Preterist" teaching on "audience relevance" because it basically accomplishes the same outcome whether one realizes it or not; which outcome is an allegorical "escape door" from personal accountability to certain passages of Scripture.

Hebrews 7:17-25 KJV
17. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18. For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness (flesh) and unprofitableness thereof.
19. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
20. And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21. (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
22. By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24. But this man, (Christ) because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

So the Isaiah 28 "Covenant with Death" was "disannulled" just as stated in Isaiah 28 because those priests were flesh mortals, and mere men, which kept "waxing old", dying, "decaying", and constantly needing replacement when they waxed old, died, and decayed away. This is true because the writer states that the Covenant of the old priesthood was NOT BY AN OATH. Yet now we have BY SWORN OATH an Eternal High Priest in Christ Yeshua who lives forevermore to make intercession for anyone who comes to him by faith. Therefore if Satan was cast out long before anyone here was born into the world then WHY SHOULD ANYONE HERE NEED A HIGH PRIEST?

Therefore Satan is cast out ...
But to each in his appointed times ...


Luke 10:17-18 KJV
17. And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Paraphrased to the disciples: "Yes, I know... I saw it: I was there with you!"...
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Sun Jan 29, 2012 - 17:00:55
daq,

Your post above makes about as much sense as this

(http://www.pic4ever.com/images/126fs422682.gif)

thinker

 ::smile::


Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: daq on Sun Jan 29, 2012 - 17:23:05
daq,

Your post above makes about as much sense as this

([url]http://www.pic4ever.com/images/126fs422682.gif[/url])

thinker

 ::smile::





You want the simplified version?

Mark 2:17 KJV
17. When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 16:9 KJV
9. Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Those who recognize their need for a physician sit at the feet of the Master Physician and eat whatsoever crumbs fall from his table. Those who do not need a physician make their own tables and feast on whatsoever they desire. In The End one is a sheep and the other is a shaggy-goat-satyr.

Hope that helps ...  ::smile::
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: raggthyme on Sun Jan 29, 2012 - 22:43:38
daq,

Your post above makes about as much sense as this

([url]http://www.pic4ever.com/images/126fs422682.gif[/url])

thinker

 ::smile::





You want the simplified version?

Mark 2:17 KJV
17. When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 16:9 KJV
9. Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Those who recognize their need for a physician sit at the feet of the Master Physician and eat whatsoever crumbs fall from his table. Those who do not need a physician make their own tables and feast on whatsoever they desire. In The End one is a sheep and the other is a shaggy-goat-satyr.

Hope that helps ...  ::smile::


Sorry daq,

I have to agree with thinker, your posts are extremely long and nearly impossible for me to find the main point of. I'm not the greatest reader but this is WAY beyond my level of comprehension. Thanks for the simplified version ;)
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: daq on Mon Jan 30, 2012 - 00:27:28
daq,

Your post above makes about as much sense as this

([url]http://www.pic4ever.com/images/126fs422682.gif[/url])

thinker

 ::smile::





You want the simplified version?

Mark 2:17 KJV
17. When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 16:9 KJV
9. Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Those who recognize their need for a physician sit at the feet of the Master Physician and eat whatsoever crumbs fall from his table. Those who do not need a physician make their own tables and feast on whatsoever they desire. In The End one is a sheep and the other is a shaggy-goat-satyr.

Hope that helps ...  ::smile::


Sorry daq,

I have to agree with thinker, your posts are extremely long and nearly impossible for me to find the main point of. I'm not the greatest reader but this is WAY beyond my level of comprehension. Thanks for the simplified version ;)


Haha! You are welcome: Just remember that the Master Physician is also the Eternal High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek and our Eternal High Priest has ONGOING duties, (intercession on our part and on the part of everyone who has and will ever come to believe). And one of his main functions as the High Priest is to Atone, and this he does by casting out the Devil, and Satan, and the wicked one(s) by the very FINGER of YHWH when he sprinkles the blood of Atonement, (with his own blood). So if your heart is sprinkled from an evil conscience then ONLY THE HIGH PRIEST COULD HAVE DONE IT: and that is with the same Finger which wrote the Decalogue Commandments.  ::smile::

Hebrews 10:16-22 KJV
16. This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20. By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21. And having an high priest over the house of God;
22. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

::priest::  ::The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's th
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Tue Jan 31, 2012 - 18:08:32
daq wrote:
Quote
And one of his main functions as the High Priest is to Atone, and this he does by casting out the Devil, and Satan, and the wicked one(s) by the very FINGER of YHWH when he sprinkles the blood of Atonement, (with his own blood).

daq,

The atonement was completed in ad70. Christ's intercession ended THEN. The atoning work of Christ was NOT an eternal work. The Greek 'aion' simply means "continual without interruption." Christ's atoning work was NOT interrupted by death like in the Levitical syatem. That is what is mean by His intercession having been "continual."

The atonement was completed by ad70. Satan is in the lake of fire!

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: daq on Tue Jan 31, 2012 - 20:00:03
daq wrote:
Quote
And one of his main functions as the High Priest is to Atone, and this he does by casting out the Devil, and Satan, and the wicked one(s) by the very FINGER of YHWH when he sprinkles the blood of Atonement, (with his own blood).


daq,

The atonement was completed in ad70. Christ's intercession ended THEN. The atoning work of Christ was NOT an eternal work. The Greek 'aion' simply means "continual without interruption." Christ's atoning work was NOT interrupted by death like in the Levitical syatem. That is what is mean by His intercession having been "continual."

The atonement was completed by ad70. Satan is in the lake of fire!

thinker


The whole Gospel is personal and individual to each and every believer. Do you honestly mean to tell me that you believe the Atonement of your own Tabernacle-body was accomplished in 70AD? Perhaps you do not mean that but it is the ultimate result of what you have stated and cannot be correct because EACH BELIEVER IS A HOLY TEMPLE OF YHWH.

That is what is meant once again by "all of it is SPIRIT" ~

The saints are the Tabernacle of the Congregation:

Leviticus 16:12-13 KJV
12. And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the Lord, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail: (the vail is now no more)
13. And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:

This service is "about the space of half an hour" ~

Revelation 8:1-4
1. And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2. And I saw the seven messengers which stood before the Theou; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3. And another messenger came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before the Theou out of the hand of the messenger.

(http://sheshbazzardaq.com/cloud-incense-prayer.jpg)

Leviticus 16:14-17 KJV
14. And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.
15. Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
16. And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
17. And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

The same is the Temple of the Tabernacle of the Testimony:

Revelation 15:1-8
1. And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven messengers having the seven last strokes; for in them is filled up the thumos-passion-fury of the Theou.
2. And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of the Theou.
3. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of the Theou, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Kurie ho Theos ho Pantokrator; just and true are thy ways, thou King of nations!
4. Who shall not fear thee, O Kurie, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
5. And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
6. And the seven messengers came out of the temple, having the seven strokes, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven messengers seven golden vials full of the thumos-passion-fury of the Theou, who liveth for ever and ever.
8. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of the Theou, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven strokes of the seven messengers were fulfilled.

(http://sheshbazzardaq.com/leviticus16-congregation.jpg)

The entire Sevenfold Revelation of Yeshua concerns Atonement ~
And no one is allowed inside his house in the appointed time it is cleansed!
Pray that you are found worthy to stand before the Son of man in that Day:
Upon a Sea of glass having been mingled with fire ...


::priest::  ::The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's th
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: asachild on Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 00:13:27
Quote
thinker
Satan was loosed around the time Jesus appeared.

1 Chron. 21:1
"Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel."

Zech. 3:1
"Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right  hand to oppose him.  And the Lord said to Satan, 'The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you!"

Regards,
AsAChild
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: daq on Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 16:49:36
Quote
thinker
Satan was loosed around the time Jesus appeared.

1 Chron. 21:1
"Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel."

Zech. 3:1
"Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right  hand to oppose him.  And the Lord said to Satan, 'The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you!"

Regards,
AsAChild

Yaha!  ::smile::

Jude 1:9
9. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Zechariah 3:1-3
1. And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Mal'ak of YHWH, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2. And said YHWH unto Satan, YHWH rebuke thee, O Satan; even YHWH that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3. Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the Mal'ak.

Joshua 5:13-15
13.  And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14. And he said, Nay; but as Sar- tsba'- YHWH am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith 'Adoniy unto his servant?
15. And the Sar- tsba'- YHWH said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

And so the entire Old Testament-Tanak BODY OF MOSES was folded into Christ and went up into the Holy City in the Third Day, (Matthew 27:51-53) even Hezekiah and many others who were emphanizo-manifested-signified in the Scriptures, as promised, and went up into the House of YHWH, in the Third Day! And there are many more to come, (when Satan is cast out of them by the High Priest) each in his or her appointed times.

Hebrews 12:22-24
22. But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of messengers,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24. And to Yeshua the mediator of the new covenant, ("new mediator of the covenant" in the Greek) and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 17:51:46
daq said:
Quote
The whole Gospel is personal and individual to each and every believer. Do you honestly mean to tell me that you believe the Atonement of your own Tabernacle-body was accomplished in 70AD? Perhaps you do not mean that but it is the ultimate result of what you have stated and cannot be correct because EACH BELIEVER IS A HOLY TEMPLE OF YHWH.

I am not waiting for MY redemption. Paul said that THEY were "eagerly waiting" for the redemption of the BODY? THEY received the FULL redemption in ad70. But post ad70 saints have full redemption UPON BELIEVING in Jesus.

PLEASE try to keep your posts shorter.

thanks,

thinker

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 18:00:17
Quote
thinker
Satan was loosed around the time Jesus appeared.

1 Chron. 21:1
"Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel."

Zech. 3:1
"Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right  hand to oppose him.  And the Lord said to Satan, 'The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you!"

Regards,
AsAChild

From page 1


The word "sawtawn" in the Hebrew simply means "accuser." So 1 Chronicles should read, "And an accuser stood up against Israel...." The "accuser" that stood against Israel was God:

"And the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel and He moved David against them...." 2 Samuel 24:1

Job's "accuser" (sawtawn) was a man.

Psalm 109:6 simply means "accuser"

"Set a wicked man over him, And let an accuser stand at his right hand." NKJV

In Zechariah God was the "Adversary" (sawtawn) and the Angel of God (Christ) was Joshua's Advocate:

" 1And he sheweth me Joshua the high priest standing before the messenger of Jehovah, and the Adversary standing at his right hand, to be an adversary to him." Young's Literal Translation

The translations which say "satan" are wrong.

Satan was bound throughout the old testament period. He was loosed for the "little season" between the two comings of Christ. It was not until then that we see satanic activity. He was judged in the first century and cast into the lake of fire.

thinker




Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: daq on Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 18:06:17
daq said:
Quote
The whole Gospel is personal and individual to each and every believer. Do you honestly mean to tell me that you believe the Atonement of your own Tabernacle-body was accomplished in 70AD? Perhaps you do not mean that but it is the ultimate result of what you have stated and cannot be correct because EACH BELIEVER IS A HOLY TEMPLE OF YHWH.

I am not waiting for MY redemption. Paul said that THEY were "eagerly waiting" for the redemption of the BODY? THEY received the FULL redemption in ad70. But post ad70 saints have full redemption UPON BELIEVING in Jesus.

PLEASE try to keep your posts shorter.

thanks,

thinker



Ahah!So the truth comes out:
You have no Scripture to back up anything in your statement because all of what you state here is based on your newly found tradition. In addition you appear to be a Dispensationalist in a sheepskin because you ended your own age, and all judgment, in 70AD well before you were ever born. Now therefore you have nothing to be accountable for so long as you just believe your own interpretation of the Scriptures.

Was that short enough?  ::smile::
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 18:10:55
Quote
thinker
Satan was loosed around the time Jesus appeared.

1 Chron. 21:1
"Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel."

Zech. 3:1
"Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right  hand to oppose him.  And the Lord said to Satan, 'The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you!"

Regards,
AsAChild

From page 1


The word "sawtawn" in the Hebrew simply means "accuser." So 1 Chronicles should read, "And an accuser stood up against Israel...." The "accuser" that stood against Israel was God:

"And the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel and He moved David against them...." 2 Samuel 24:1

Job's "accuser" (sawtawn) was a man.

Psalm 109:6 simply means "accuser"

"Set a wicked man over him, And let an accuser stand at his right hand." NKJV

In Zechariah God was the "Adversary" (sawtawn) and the Angel of God (Christ) was Joshua's Advocate:

" 1And he sheweth me Joshua the high priest standing before the messenger of Jehovah, and the Adversary standing at his right hand, to be an adversary to him." Young's Literal Translation

The translations which say "satan" are wrong.

Satan was bound throughout the old testament period. He was loosed for the "little season" between the two comings of Christ. It was not until then that we see satanic activity. He was judged in the first century and cast into the lake of fire.

thinker






if satan is locked up, then why in the world do we still NEED JESUS????????????
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 18:26:46
let me rephrase that

if Satan is locked up, then there is no more sin on this earth, so why do we continue to talk people into accepting Christ, when there is no need.

and dont tell me that sin is still on the earth if Satan ain't here cause that's b.s. sin was on the earth before Adam and eve!  he crawled around on his belly, if hes gone then there aint no sin, and i dont know  what bubble you live in
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 18:36:27
let me rephrase that

if Satan is locked up, then there is no more sin on this earth, so why do we continue to talk people into accepting Christ, when there is no need.

and dont tell me that sin is still on the earth if Satan ain't here cause that's b.s. sin was on the earth before Adam and eve!  he crawled around on his belly, if hes gone then there aint no sin, and i dont know  what bubble you live in

According to Peter and Jude the evil angels were bound in chains in the old testament. There was still sin wasn't there?

Paul said that by one MAN sin entered into the world. Man is sinful with or without stan.

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 18:42:06
daq said:
Quote
The whole Gospel is personal and individual to each and every believer. Do you honestly mean to tell me that you believe the Atonement of your own Tabernacle-body was accomplished in 70AD? Perhaps you do not mean that but it is the ultimate result of what you have stated and cannot be correct because EACH BELIEVER IS A HOLY TEMPLE OF YHWH.

I am not waiting for MY redemption. Paul said that THEY were "eagerly waiting" for the redemption of the BODY? THEY received the FULL redemption in ad70. But post ad70 saints have full redemption UPON BELIEVING in Jesus.

PLEASE try to keep your posts shorter.

thanks,

thinker



Ahah!So the truth comes out:
You have no Scripture to back up anything in your statement because all of what you state here is based on your newly found tradition. In addition you appear to be a Dispensationalist in a sheepskin because you ended your own age, and all judgment, in 70AD well before you were ever born. Now therefore you have nothing to be accountable for so long as you just believe your own interpretation of the Scriptures.

Was that short enough?  ::smile::

Yeah that was short enough.

Paul said that they were "eagerly waiting" for the redemption of the body. If they were eagerly waiting for the full redemption, then they were not yet fully redeemed. If the full redemption did not come in ad70, then when did it come?

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 18:45:13
let me rephrase that

if Satan is locked up, then there is no more sin on this earth, so why do we continue to talk people into accepting Christ, when there is no need.

and dont tell me that sin is still on the earth if Satan ain't here cause that's b.s. sin was on the earth before Adam and eve!  he crawled around on his belly, if hes gone then there aint no sin, and i dont know  what bubble you live in

According to Peter and Jude the evil angels were bound in chains in the old testament. There was still sin wasn't there?

Paul said that by one MAN sin entered into the world. Man is sinful with or without stan.

thinker

MAN opened the door for sin to come into this world threw satan
if satan and all his army are bound why do we need Jesus??
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 18:49:06
let me rephrase that

if Satan is locked up, then there is no more sin on this earth, so why do we continue to talk people into accepting Christ, when there is no need.

and dont tell me that sin is still on the earth if Satan ain't here cause that's b.s. sin was on the earth before Adam and eve!  he crawled around on his belly, if hes gone then there aint no sin, and i dont know  what bubble you live in

According to Peter and Jude the evil angels were bound in chains in the old testament. There was still sin wasn't there?

Paul said that by one MAN sin entered into the world. Man is sinful with or without stan.

thinker

MAN opened the door for sin to come into this world threw satan
if satan and all his army are bound why do we need Jesus??

But man does not need satan to continue to sin. James says that wars and strife and all sin comes from OUR OWN lusts.

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 18:52:55
let me rephrase that

if Satan is locked up, then there is no more sin on this earth, so why do we continue to talk people into accepting Christ, when there is no need.

and dont tell me that sin is still on the earth if Satan ain't here cause that's b.s. sin was on the earth before Adam and eve!  he crawled around on his belly, if hes gone then there aint no sin, and i dont know  what bubble you live in

According to Peter and Jude the evil angels were bound in chains in the old testament. There was still sin wasn't there?

Paul said that by one MAN sin entered into the world. Man is sinful with or without stan.


thinker

MAN opened the door for sin to come into this world threw satan
if satan and all his army are bound why do we need Jesus??

But man does not need satan to continue to sin. James says that wars and strife and all sin comes from OUR OWN lusts.

thinker


where did we get the lusts from?
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Thu Feb 02, 2012 - 19:03:38
let me rephrase that

if Satan is locked up, then there is no more sin on this earth, so why do we continue to talk people into accepting Christ, when there is no need.

and dont tell me that sin is still on the earth if Satan ain't here cause that's b.s. sin was on the earth before Adam and eve!  he crawled around on his belly, if hes gone then there aint no sin, and i dont know  what bubble you live in

According to Peter and Jude the evil angels were bound in chains in the old testament. There was still sin wasn't there?

Paul said that by one MAN sin entered into the world. Man is sinful with or without stan.


thinker

MAN opened the door for sin to come into this world threw satan
if satan and all his army are bound why do we need Jesus??

But man does not need satan to continue to sin. James says that wars and strife and all sin comes from OUR OWN lusts.

thinker


where did we get the lusts from?

From within ourselves.

"Each man is tempted when he is drawn away of HIS OWN lusts and enticed."

Satan had to have something to work with when he tempted Adam and Eve. Satan had nothing to work with regarding Jesus when he tempted Him.

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: WarriorUvChrist on Tue Feb 14, 2012 - 10:05:09

[/quote]

Satan was still loosed when Peter was written but was about to be crushed (Romans 16:20). THEIR accuser was crushed. Consequently, WE do not have an accuser.

Again, Peter was written during the "little season" of satan's loosing when THEIR accuser was loosed and rampant.

thinker
[/quote]

On the first page you said thatTHE ACCUSER was God that stood against Israel! 2 things,So God crushed himself & you're basically saying God is dead-blashemous! Then in this one your saying that theACCUSER-God was loose & rampant

Something isn't making sense!!
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: fenton on Tue Feb 14, 2012 - 10:14:05
let me rephrase that

if Satan is locked up, then there is no more sin on this earth, so why do we continue to talk people into accepting Christ, when there is no need.

and dont tell me that sin is still on the earth if Satan ain't here cause that's b.s. sin was on the earth before Adam and eve!  he crawled around on his belly, if hes gone then there aint no sin, and i dont know  what bubble you live in

According to Peter and Jude the evil angels were bound in chains in the old testament. There was still sin wasn't there?

Paul said that by one MAN sin entered into the world. Man is sinful with or without stan.


thinker

MAN opened the door for sin to come into this world threw satan
if satan and all his army are bound why do we need Jesus??

But man does not need satan to continue to sin. James says that wars and strife and all sin comes from OUR OWN lusts.

thinker


where did we get the lusts from?

From within ourselves.

"Each man is tempted when he is drawn away of HIS OWN lusts and enticed."

Satan had to have something to work with when he tempted Adam and Eve. Satan had nothing to work with regarding Jesus when he tempted Him.

thinker

so your telling me God created an imperfect sinful person that allready had lust in his heart?????
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: WarriorUvChrist on Tue Feb 14, 2012 - 10:39:18
@thinker

You've stated that Satan was bound from the Old Testement in chains,now it's the Lake of Fire!

How can Satan be in 2 places at once,since you said that Jesus can't be from riding on a cloud or judging on a white horse?
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: DaveW on Tue Feb 14, 2012 - 11:34:25
C'mon people. Time and eternity are completely different systems. Our chronology and that in heaven or the lake of fire have no common point of reference.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: n2thelight on Wed Feb 15, 2012 - 02:25:06
C'mon people. Time and eternity are completely different systems. Our chronology and that in heaven or the lake of fire have no common point of reference.

Oh but they do have a common point of reference,we are now going by time as goverened by this age,meaning its no different,eternity starts after the Great White Throne Judgement........We just think time is going by slow,whereas to God it's not....

At work kinda sleepy right now,hope that made sense..........
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: DaveW on Thu Feb 16, 2012 - 06:31:03
Oh but they do have a common point of reference,we are now going by time as goverened by this age,meaning its no different,eternity starts after the Great White Throne Judgement........We just think time is going by slow,whereas to God it's not....
WE - who are in the time/space creation - are going by time.  But God exists OUTSIDE our time/space continuum and is not subject to it as He created it. Heaven and the lake of fire also exist OUTSIDE time/space.

And yes, time/space will end one day at the final judgement. We will all dump from time to eternity.  What I am saying is that there is no common point between the 2. They do not parallel. We do not even know if there is any kind of chronology in eternity.

The bible says God sees the end from the beginning.  IT means He can see both points in time at the same time.

God and eternity are NOT SUBJECT TO OUR TIME.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Fri Feb 17, 2012 - 13:35:00
DaveW said:
Quote
And yes, time/space will end one day at the final judgement.

Dave,

You are perpetuating the myths you have been taught. There will be no end to time and space. The "fiinal" judgment was against Israel and not all of humanity.

God promised that He would show mercy and salvation to "thousands of generations" (Exodus 20:6. Deuteronomy 7:9; Psalms 105:7-10). We have not even begun to see God's salvation.

Paul said that God wll be glorified in the church through Jesus Christ to "all generations world without end." The expression "all generations world without end" means that mankind will procreate forever and ever.

God has no intention of destroying the human race that is in His image. New covenant judgment is upon individuals only and not against entire races like in times past. The new covenant God is anti-genocide.
thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: thethinker on Fri Mar 16, 2012 - 18:21:40
Bumped for fish153

thinker
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: JohnDB70X7 on Sat Mar 24, 2012 - 19:34:38
I for one am still waiting on the OP / Title to be proven.

Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: JHM on Sat Mar 24, 2012 - 19:43:10
Satan is NOT yet in "The lake of fire". That comes AFTER the "Destruction of Babylon".
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: JohnDB70X7 on Sat Mar 24, 2012 - 19:57:05
That's why I say to the OP about the OP Title...

Prove it.
Title: Re: Satan is in the lake of fire
Post by: Lehigh on Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 11:41:20
The preterist says that Satan has already been destroyed in the lake of fire [Revelation 20:10]

.... and Satan laughs at this thinking

When in fact he has snookered the preterist into believing the he no longer exists

This tactic of the devil always has been and is one of his favorite deceptions and the preterist falls hook, line, and sinker

 ..... or if not, the preterist must be willing partner who assists with Satan's ruse

Which is it?

Linker seems to admit he knows Satan's deep dark secrets! 

I choose to focus on God's blessings and light.  The other must be a burden!  ::cool::