Author Topic: The "END" in the Old Testament  (Read 6408 times)

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EdwardGoodie

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The "END" in the Old Testament
« on: December 24, 2011, 10:52:16 AM »
In another thread, I challenged some members to show me where the "end" IN RELATION TO THE END OF HUMAN HISTORY, was mentioned in the Old Testament.  I received no answer.  So now I open it for a more public challenge to all the futurists on this board.

Determining the foundation and manner of the "end" is vitally important because Paul himself proclaimed that he taught nothing but from the Law and prophets, and especially in relation to the resurrection (Acts 24:14, Acts 26:22).  As well, it is vitally important because Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets.

So where is the "end" of human history taught in the Old Testament?

And a special take care to everyone over the next week.  BE SAFE!


thethinker

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Re: The "END" in the Old Testament
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2011, 12:28:29 PM »
In another thread, I challenged some members to show me where the "end" IN RELATION TO THE END OF HUMAN HISTORY, was mentioned in the Old Testament.  I received no answer.  So now I open it for a more public challenge to all the futurists on this board.

Determining the foundation and manner of the "end" is vitally important because Paul himself proclaimed that he taught nothing but from the Law and prophets, and especially in relation to the resurrection (Acts 24:14, Acts 26:22).  As well, it is vitally important because Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets.

So where is the "end" of human history taught in the Old Testament?

And a special take care to everyone over the next week.  BE SAFE!



EG,

You are correct. The Scripture does NOT teach that human history will come to an end. Paul said that God will be glorified in the church throughout all generations "world without end" (Eph. 3:21). So the human race will continue. The "end" in view was ALWAYS the end of the Jewish age. The disciples inquired about the end of the "age" and Jesus answered saying that Jerusalem would be destroyed and that the house of Israel would be left desolate. It was the Jewish age (heaven and earth) that was to come to an end and NOT human history.

God will NOT destroy humanity.

thinker

EdwardGoodie

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Re: The "END" in the Old Testament
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2011, 06:17:28 PM »
Yoohoo futurists...

You keep telling us that we all whacked in our doctrine, so why don't you tell us where in the Old Testament your end of history is forecast...

P.S. - I know why you won't, because the last days, or latter days, or the time of the end is what happens to OLD COVENANT ISRAEL - - - - not general human history.

C'mon, if you are right then show us!

P.S. - We already know that the old covenant system was destroyed almost 2,000 years ago, and right on time as it was appointed and to the generation it was appointed to...

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Re: The "END" in the Old Testament
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2011, 09:21:52 PM »
"C'mon, if you are right then show us!"


You have been informed son ..... but you are not able to come to the truth

What you do on this forum is come to argue and debate for sport .... some kind of a kinky fetish

Not Christian, but a perverted sort of "religious want be" ..... strange and weird .... alien

If the truth be known about you, I'll bet you are from the dark side .... maybe not human

What I would be interested in knowing is how did you get there and why do you come here?

What is it like .... and who keeps you in your prison?

So who ever "us" is ..... how many are you?

And one thing I would really like to know is how Satan managed to draw you off in his rebellion against the Lord eons ago?

 

thethinker

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Re: The "END" in the Old Testament
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2011, 03:40:57 AM »
"C'mon, if you are right then show us!"


You have been informed son ..... but you are not able to come to the truth

What you do on this forum is come to argue and debate for sport .... some kind of a kinky fetish

Not Christian, but a perverted sort of "religious want be" ..... strange and weird .... alien

If the truth be known about you, I'll bet you are from the dark side .... maybe not human

What I would be interested in knowing is how did you get there and why do you come here?

What is it like .... and who keeps you in your prison?

So who ever "us" is ..... how many are you?

And one thing I would really like to know is how Satan managed to draw you off in his rebellion against the Lord eons ago?

 

You should notcall EG "son."  He is 59 years old and an educated man. It is you who have misinterpreted the scriptures "son." The disciples inquired about the end of the age and NOT about the end of the human race.

 Paul said that the end of the age had come upon them (1 Corinthians 10:11). Yet we are still here aren't we? The word "end" in this verse is "telos" which means "FULL end." The FULL end of the age, that is, of the Mosaic order, came upon the first generation of Christians. The primary meaning of "age" or "world" in Greek means "arrangement of things." The FULL end of the Mosaic arrangement of things came upon the first Christians.

God created the human race in His own image and He will NOT destroy it. Paul said that God will be glorified in the church throughout all generations forever and ever (Ephesians 3:21). This means that mankind will generate (procreate) and come into salvation forever and ever. The gospel is continuously offered in the new earth (Rev. 22:17).

You need to trash your futurist books and allow the scriptures to speak for themselves. You futurists always comment on the scriptures out oftheir context. And you need to show EG the respect he deserves.

thinker

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Re: The "END" in the Old Testament
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2011, 03:40:57 AM »



EdwardGoodie

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Re: The "END" in the Old Testament
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2011, 03:32:21 PM »
Yoohoo futurists, where are the Scriptures from the Old Testament that you base your end of human history?

You'd think that someone would have responded with this kind of knowledge since they are just marvelous for berating us for our APPARENT lack of understanding...

Where are the Scriptures?  That's all I'm interested in...not meaningless drivel of personal attacks.

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Re: The "END" in the Old Testament
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2011, 04:27:00 PM »
I do not know if this is the end or not but Isa 11 and 65 speak of a time when Israel will dwell in peace, With the recognized Messiah (Root of Jesse) standing as a sign before the Jews. and a final regathering will take place from the entire diaspora:

Isa 11:6  And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them.
Isa 11:7  Also the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8  The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den.
Isa 11:9  They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10  Then in that day The nations will resort to the root of Jesse, Who will stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious.
Isa 11:11  Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea.
Isa 11:12  And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.
Isa 11:13  Then the jealousy of Ephraim will depart, And those who harass Judah will be cut off; Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah, And Judah will not harass Ephraim.
Isa 11:14  They will swoop down on the slopes of the Philistines on the west; Together they will plunder the sons of the east; They will possess Edom and Moab, And the sons of Ammon will be subject to them.
Isa 11:15  And the LORD will utterly destroy The tongue of the Sea of Egypt; And He will wave His hand over the River With His scorching wind; And He will strike it into seven streams And make men walk over dry-shod.


Isa 65:17  "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
Isa 65:18  "But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing And her people for gladness.
Isa 65:19  "I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people; And there will no longer be heard in her The voice of weeping and the sound of crying.
Isa 65:20  "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.
Isa 65:21  "They will build houses and inhabit them; They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
Isa 65:22  "They will not build and another inhabit, They will not plant and another eat; For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people, And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23  "They will not labor in vain, Or bear children for calamity; For they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD, And their descendants with them.
Isa 65:24  "It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25  "The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain," says the LORD.

And there is this:

Zec 14:16  Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
Zec 14:17  And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
Zec 14:18  If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
Zec 14:19  This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
Zec 14:20  In that day there will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, "HOLY TO THE LORD." And the cooking pots in the LORD'S house will be like the bowls before the altar.
Zec 14:21  Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts in that day.

I have yet to see Egypt or anyone else going to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

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Re: The "END" in the Old Testament
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2011, 06:00:05 PM »
Come on preterist respond to Dave's message above

I want to see how you explain Isaiah's view away .... I know that you will try


"You should not call EG "son."  He is 59 years old and an educated man"


What does age have to do with anything, and many are "educated" .... but with what? ..... some are too smart for their own bad

..... EG is void of spiritual insight and without this factor in the mix, his knowledge is a flat liner .... worthless

And my definition of "son" is very diffrerent than yours thinker   

Lehigh

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Re: The "END" in the Old Testament
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2011, 06:25:13 PM »
Dave W,

Zech. 14:16-18 refers directly to every person and nation that refuses to worship Christ in the years following the Parousia in 70:

"Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. And if the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths." (Zech. 14:16-18)


After the Coming of the Messiah (Zech. 14:5) and the eternal establishment of the New Jerusalem, (Zech. 14:11) there have been "families of the earth" that do not worship the King, the Lord of hosts. What happens to these "Egyptians" today, among whom God does not dwell? According to the Scriptures, they have "no rain."

They need to hear and obey Hosea 10:12:

"Sow with a view to righteousness. Reap in accordance with kindness. Break up your fallow ground. For it is time to seek the Lord Until He comes to rain righteousness on you." (Hosea 10:12; cf. 6:3)

Today, in the Messianic (Christian) Age, God's enemies --individuals and states-- have "no rain." They "lick the dust." (Ps. 72:9) They are on the "outside." They rise for a season, but they soon vanish like a vapor. Their goals are sheer futility. (Eccl. 1:2ff)

Where is the Assyrian Empire today? The Babylonian Empire? The Egyptian Empire? The Grecian Empire? The Ottoman Empire? The Persian Empire? The Roman Empire? The Nazi Empire? The Soviet Empire?

They are all licking the dust. They had no rain and they perished, because they were not founded on the imperishable Word of Christ. And it will be the same for any other empire in our future that rises up against Jesus, the King of kings.

In contrast to those empires, where is the Church?

She is ever-increasing, (Ps. 72:17; 115:14; Isa. 9:7; Jn. 3:30) and has been perpetually worshiping the Father and the Lamb for almost 2,000 years now. We will continue to serve God, and to have peace and fellowship with Him without interruption, "to all generations forever and ever" (Eph. 3:21) --no matter what cruelties an evil empire or religious institution might inflict upon us for a moment in history. (2 Cor. 4:17)

"Let them fear You while the sun endures, and as long as the moon, throughout all generations. May He come down like rain upon the mown grass, like showers that water the Earth. In His days may the righteous flourish, and abundance of peace till the moon is no more. May He also rule from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Let the nomads of the desert bow before Him; And His enemies lick the dust." (Ps. 72:5-9)

EdwardGoodie

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Re: The "END" in the Old Testament
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2011, 06:44:19 PM »
Come on preterist respond to Dave's message above

I want to see how you explain Isaiah's view away .... I know that you will try

No explaining away necessary.  The INSPIRED Apostle Paul quoted Isaiah 11:10 in Romans 15:12 in reference to the Gentiles being saved WITHIN HIS OWN TIME FRAME.   As you are likely as dispensationalist, you see Isaiah 11:10's "in that day" as referring to a YET FUTURE TIME FRAME.

Isaiah 65:25's "the wolf and the lamb grazing together" is merely the same kind of symbolic language that the prophets OFTEN employed regarding the Gospel of grace.  You would have realized this if you conducted your own studies into Scripture by the comparison of other Scriptures.

Now, why don't you just answer my original post concerning the whereabouts of those Old Testament Scriptures that speak of the end of human history.  I should have thought it was a simple request.  After all, your understanding of the end of human history is FOUNDATIONAL to your entire system of eschatology.

Yet not one single Scripture has been brought forth regarding this...and I know why - all those so-called "end of human history" Scriptures are contextually defined within the parameters of old covenant Israel - NOT HUMAN HISTORY.

I am still waiting...

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Re: The "END" in the Old Testament
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2011, 07:51:38 PM »
Dave W,

Zech. 14:16-18 refers directly to every person and nation that refuses to worship Christ in the years following the Parousia in 70:
So you say.  I submit that it is a polite way to get around what the text REALLY says: that EVERY NATION on earth, Jesus worshipers or not, HAVE to send people to a very LITERAL Jewish Jerusalem to literally observe the Feast of Tabernacles EVERY YEAR or have devastating drought.

Plain text. Period.

Lehigh

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Re: The "END" in the Old Testament
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2011, 08:02:57 PM »
Dave W,

Zech. 14:16-18 refers directly to every person and nation that refuses to worship Christ in the years following the Parousia in 70:
So you say.  I submit that it is a polite way to get around what the text REALLY says: that EVERY NATION on earth, Jesus worshipers or not, HAVE to send people to a very LITERAL Jewish Jerusalem to literally observe the Feast of Tabernacles EVERY YEAR or have devastating drought.

Plain text. Period.

It's a spiritual reality, Dave W., not a literal one.  This was the language of the prophets.

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Re: The "END" in the Old Testament
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2011, 09:58:09 PM »
"Now, why don't you just answer my original post concerning the whereabouts of those Old Testament Scriptures that speak of the end of human history.  I should have thought it was a simple request.  After all, your understanding of the end of human history is FOUNDATIONAL to your entire system of eschatology."


You don't deserve an answer son

Preterism is not biblical theology ..... it is pure demonology

Offline John S

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Re: The "END" in the Old Testament
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2011, 05:08:14 AM »
As far as I'm concerned, there is very little in the Old testament that I NEED to prove that the Tribulation will occur. I just need the Book of Revelations in the New Testament.
About the ONLY verses of the Old Testament that I need are these.
In my opinion, in Genesis 49, Jacob prophecizes that the antichrist will come from the Tribe of Dan of the House of Israel.
Referring to the end times, Jesus said that "many will be deceived". In my opinion, anyone who believes in a Pre-Trib Rapture has already been deceived. There will be many milions more.

Online DaveW

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Re: The "END" in the Old Testament
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2011, 05:14:51 AM »
It's a spiritual reality, Dave W., not a literal one.  This was the language of the prophets.
And I suppose the coming of the Messiah was spiritual instead of literal?

C'mon now. You are hiding behind "spiritual." That is part and parcel of Replacement theology.