Author Topic: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel  (Read 4515 times)

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thethinker

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The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« on: Wed Nov 30, 2011 - 11:07:28 »
TO ALL,

How many times have you heard the Zionists say that the Church cannot "steal" a promise that God made to Israel. Yet these same people "steal" the rapture from Israel by teaching that the Church will be raptured out of a supposed future tribulation and that Israel will be left to go through it.

This shows the blatant hypocrisy of the Zionists because Paul said that the resurrection AND the rapture was the fulfillment of a promise made to Israel.

Paul said,

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.

Offline John S

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #1 on: Wed Nov 30, 2011 - 11:40:01 »
There will be no Pre-Trib Rapture.

EdwardGoodie

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #2 on: Wed Nov 30, 2011 - 11:43:15 »
Excellent post, Thinker!

Most Bible students are unaware that the OT Scripture quoted by the apostles are in reference to promises to Israel.

But because they separate the church and Israel, they have a dual fulfillment theory - a spritual fulfillment of OT prophecies for the church and a literal, physical fulfillment of the same OT prophecies for Israel.

If only these misguided individuals would accept the apostles illumination of the OT as the ONLY singular illumination.  The apostles say nothing of a literal, physical fulfillment to Israel.  In fact, just the opposite is expressed.  Israel was going to lose their kingdom and given unto another nation.  Christians, through the new covenant in Christ are that holy nation!

The promises expressed to Israel are a fulfillment to the church - JEW and Gentile!!

Offline FireSword

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #3 on: Wed Nov 30, 2011 - 14:35:21 »
The promise to the Israelites and that includes converted gentiles to Christ, is to dwell in the land of cannan as a mighty nation Judah and Ephraim together as one stick.

Without this promise the earth will continue to be ruled by pagan gentiles. But scripture says the times of the gentiles will be fullfilled, paving way for King Davids throne to rule the earth from Jerusalem in the land of cannan.

It remains to be seen whether current Jerusalem will repent, if not then they will be cast off the branches and Jerusalem will be rebuilt in cannan for Messiah the prince.





Offline Consumingfire

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #4 on: Thu Dec 01, 2011 - 10:01:14 »
What is this "Church" you are speaking of?  Also, your rapture views are more than debatable. 

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #4 on: Thu Dec 01, 2011 - 10:01:14 »



Lehigh

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #5 on: Thu Dec 01, 2011 - 13:52:17 »
The promise to the Israelites and that includes converted gentiles to Christ, is to dwell in the land of cannan as a mighty nation Judah and Ephraim together as one stick.
Why do you speak in the present tense? When did salvation first come upon the gentiles, as it is written?  Now think of Peter and Cornelius. Were they supposed to dwell in the land of Canaan as a literal "mighty nation" with Judah and Ephraim(12 tribes) OR did Peter tell his believing audience to look for a new heavens and earth (the New Jerusalem) where RIGHTEOUSNESS DWELLS?
I say the latter is written and true, and it is easy to discern the New Jerusalem as being the kingdom of God- which is moral and spiritual.
Quote
Without this promise the earth will continue to be ruled by pagan gentiles. But scripture says the times of the gentiles will be fullfilled, paving way for King Davids throne to rule the earth from Jerusalem in the land of cannan.
The earth is NOT dominated by pagan gentiles today. The times of the gentiles ended with pagan Rome surrounding and raising Jerusalem in AD70, according to the prophecy.
As far as David's throne is concerned, it is not literal (but symbolic) And God does indeed tabernacle with us today.
Quote
It remains to be seen whether current Jerusalem will repent, if not then they will be cast off the branches and Jerusalem will be rebuilt in cannan for Messiah the prince.

As a whole, the Jews missed their visitation of their Messiah in Christ's day. LUKE 19:41-44,
Jesus Weeps over Jerusalem
   41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 01, 2011 - 13:59:54 by Lehigh »

Offline FireSword

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #6 on: Thu Dec 01, 2011 - 14:31:21 »
God said for us to pray for his will in heaven to be done on the earth.

The rulers of this world are non believers. But God will one day rule the earth with his saints.

Those servants that are faithful with a few things, shall be rule over many.

The words you speak is old news(but very important news and worthy to speak of), that happened 2000 years ago. The future is that God will rule the Earth and his tabernacle will be among men.




Lehigh

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #7 on: Thu Dec 01, 2011 - 17:23:20 »
God said for us to pray for his will in heaven to be done on the earth.

The rulers of this world are non believers. But God will one day rule the earth with his saints.

Those servants that are faithful with a few things, shall be rule over many.

The words you speak is old news(but very important news and worthy to speak of), that happened 2000 years ago. The future is that God will rule the Earth and his tabernacle will be among men.





 Jesus will never physically rule on earth.
 The "rule" (as in rule them with a rod of iron) you assume is not political. It is moral and spiritual through the sword of the spirit.
2Cor. 10:4 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
Yours is material and carnal. The same reason why the Jews rejected Christ as their Messiah. They wanted a king to literally rule over their Roman oppressors. Yet Christ said His kingdom was not of this world.

It will never be of this lustful world.

His tabernacle, the church, is here now. I guess you must not believe you are saved now, but only in that misguided future.

By acknowledging the past work of Christ, you inherit the blessings now. It's not about satisfying one's ego to literally "rule over the world" in the end because you are a Christian.

But I agree with your first sentence only!
« Last Edit: Thu Dec 01, 2011 - 18:40:51 by Lehigh »

Offline Linker

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #8 on: Thu Dec 01, 2011 - 19:37:09 »
"Jesus will never physically rule on earth"


So the devil thinks .... his folly for sure [Revelation 12:12; 20:1-4]

Matthew
6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.


The preterist says that the Lord's kingdom is already present on the earth .... but strangely without Him .... the world moves on .... the Lord looks on .... but only until His wrath is pent up [Psalms 2; Revelation 6:12-17]

What a joke ..... look around .... who would suggest such a ruse: [1peter 5:8]


Let the Lord speak:


Zechariah
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.


Is the preterist a deceiver .... or just plain ignorant? ............. most likely both

Is the preterist mad? .... who in their right mind would dare to slap the Lord in the face and defy Him?


Micah
4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Micah
5:1 Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

5:4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.

5:5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.

5:6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

5:7 And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.

5:8 And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

Joel
3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

3:21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.


This preterist's scoffing above is right on time:


2Timothy
4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2Peter
3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Do not be deceived by the preterist who comes in the name of Jesus Christ, and yet is a servant of the devil

.... Knowingly ..... or unknowingly [Matthew 24:4-5]
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 02, 2011 - 10:25:23 by Linker »

Offline Linker

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #9 on: Thu Dec 01, 2011 - 20:59:32 »
Response to the OP:

No one can "steal" the Lord's coming "harpazo" action to immortalize His church of a few of Israel and a multitude of Gentiles

And this action is not for a remnant part of national ethnic Israel at the end of this present age .... there is no such event scheduled for this remnant who will turn to their Messiah and King during the 70th week decreed for the nation

Israel is still in unbelief today and none of these will experience the Lord's "snatching" of His church [of those asleep and those living at the time]


Offline FireSword

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #10 on: Thu Dec 01, 2011 - 21:42:14 »
God said for us to pray for his will in heaven to be done on the earth.

The rulers of this world are non believers. But God will one day rule the earth with his saints.

Those servants that are faithful with a few things, shall be rule over many.

The words you speak is old news(but very important news and worthy to speak of), that happened 2000 years ago. The future is that God will rule the Earth and his tabernacle will be among men.





 Jesus will never physically rule on earth.
 The "rule" (as in rule them with a rod of iron) you assume is not political. It is moral and spiritual through the sword of the spirit.
2Cor. 10:4 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
Yours is material and carnal. The same reason why the Jews rejected Christ as their Messiah. They wanted a king to literally rule over their Roman oppressors. Yet Christ said His kingdom was not of this world.

It will never be of this lustful world.

His tabernacle, the church, is here now. I guess you must not believe you are saved now, but only in that misguided future.

By acknowledging the past work of Christ, you inherit the blessings now. It's not about satisfying one's ego to literally "rule over the world" in the end because you are a Christian.

But I agree with your first sentence only!


I agree that a carnal based kingdom of rulership is evil and a similar system the antichrist desires to set up.
But Gods system brings peace to all of humanity.

The book of proverbs say

when the righteous rule the people rejoice,
but the wicked rule, are a burden

Even the unbeliever prefer a rightoeus man in power over the evil and only Christ can bring such a king.

The Jews were not right with God in their hearts, of they had ruled in that time period they would have abused their authority beyond words.

But now Christ has millions of trusted servants over the centuries, who are proven worthy to be kings and priests in His holy eyes, so that some rule over 5 cities, some 10.


A carnal christian you speak of has no chance becoming a ruler without being dethroned from God. As he sets them up and casts them down again.





Offline DaveW

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #11 on: Thu Dec 01, 2011 - 21:51:07 »
No one can "steal" the Lord's coming "harpazo" action to immortalize His church of a few of Israel and a multitude of Gentiles

And this action is not for a remnant part of national ethnic Israel at the end of this present age .... there is no such event scheduled for this remnant who will turn to their Messiah and King during the 70th week decreed for the nation

Israel is still in unbelief today and none of these will experience the Lord's "snatching" of His church [of those asleep and those living at the time]
In Jer 31.31, God promised the New Covenant to Israel and Judah.  Not to the "multitude of gentiles."  In fact, the ONLY place in scripture that gives a reason for gentiles being allowed in AT ALL was to make the Jews who do not believe the New Covenant jealous (Rom 11)

We do not steal anything, but we get to participate in THEIR PROMISES. But don't forget, it is NOT to us gentiles that this party was given, we are just invited guests.

Offline DaveW

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #12 on: Thu Dec 01, 2011 - 21:54:02 »
What have you done lately that will make an Orthodox or Chassidic Jew jealous?  Would they even recognize you are worshiping THEIR own God? (God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob)

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #13 on: Fri Dec 02, 2011 - 08:27:21 »
God said for us to pray for his will in heaven to be done on the earth.

The rulers of this world are non believers. But God will one day rule the earth with his saints.

Those servants that are faithful with a few things, shall be rule over many.

The words you speak is old news(but very important news and worthy to speak of), that happened 2000 years ago. The future is that God will rule the Earth and his tabernacle will be among men.





 Jesus will never physically rule on earth.
 The "rule" (as in rule them with a rod of iron) you assume is not political. It is moral and spiritual through the sword of the spirit.
2Cor. 10:4 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
Yours is material and carnal. The same reason why the Jews rejected Christ as their Messiah. They wanted a king to literally rule over their Roman oppressors. Yet Christ said His kingdom was not of this world.

It will never be of this lustful world.


This is why God says wait till I male your enemys your footstool because Christ WILL reign over the whole earth (dan2:35) and Jesus WILL rule the lustful world with a rod of iron.... You don't believe the world will be flesh and blood do you? (rev 19:21) all the remnant ( those who remain) will be slain.... Only a spirit body could last a 1000 yrs... It may be with a dead soul ( fear only God who can kill both body and soul) these are who we are given charge of during His reign.... Since this isn't the lake of fire maybe it's hell.... We know that the rich man and lazarus, how the unbeliever ask for him to cool his tongue and is told that they can't cross over.  You will either have Christ as your master as Savior or as ruling with a rod of iron..... This is when every knee shall bow at the name of Jesus as this is His time as king..... THIS (lustful) world will be over as Christ will have filled the whole earth after he destroys all worldly/satanic/man kingdoms (dan 2:35) 

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #14 on: Fri Dec 02, 2011 - 08:47:14 »
God said for us to pray for his will in heaven to be done on the earth.

The rulers of this world are non believers. But God will one day rule the earth with his saints.

Those servants that are faithful with a few things, shall be rule over many.

The words you speak is old news(but very important news and worthy to speak of), that happened 2000 years ago. The future is that God will rule the Earth and his tabernacle will be among men.





 Jesus will never physically rule on earth.
 The "rule" (as in rule them with a rod of iron) you assume is not political. It is moral and spiritual through the sword of the spirit.
2Cor. 10:4 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
Yours is material and carnal. The same reason why the Jews rejected Christ as their Messiah. They wanted a king to literally rule over their Roman oppressors. Yet Christ said His kingdom was not of this world.

It will never be of this lustful world.

His tabernacle, the church, is here now. I guess you must not believe you are saved now, but only in that misguided future.

By acknowledging the past work of Christ, you inherit the blessings now. It's not about satisfying one's ego to literally "rule over the world" in the end because you are a Christian.

But I agree with your first sentence only!


thethinker

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #15 on: Fri Dec 02, 2011 - 17:43:14 »
Response to the OP:

No one can "steal" the Lord's coming "harpazo" action to immortalize His church of a few of Israel and a multitude of Gentiles

And this action is not for a remnant part of national ethnic Israel at the end of this present age .... there is no such event scheduled for this remnant who will turn to their Messiah and King during the 70th week decreed for the nation

Israel is still in unbelief today and none of these will experience the Lord's "snatching" of His church [of those asleep and those living at the time]



The apostle Paul said that the resurrection AND the rapture is the fulfillment of a promise to immortalize Israel (Hosea 13:14). Paul said this to the Corinthians who are ALL Israelites. There were no non-Israelites in the church at Corinth.

I noticed that you totally ignored Paul's use of Hosea 13:14.

Give up your cult!

thinker

Offline DaveW

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #16 on: Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 08:24:38 »
Paul said this to the Corinthians who are ALL Israelites. There were no non-Israelites in the church at Corinth.
??????

Chapter and verse please.  Paul was the "apostle to the gentiles" and called Corinth the proof of his apostleship.

thethinker

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #17 on: Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 10:47:06 »
Paul said this to the Corinthians who are ALL Israelites. There were no non-Israelites in the church at Corinth.
??????

Chapter and verse please.  Paul was the "apostle to the gentiles" and called Corinth the proof of his apostleship.

1. The "gentiles" were the lost northern tribes. Paul was NOT an apostle to genetic gentiles. The lost northern tribes were the "gentiles" that came into the body (Eph. 2). The proof is in the historical fact that Christ "came and preached" to THEM (Eph. 2:17). Christ came and preached ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

How many times do we have to go over this?

2. The Corinthians were believing Israelites. Paul said that THEIR fathers were baptized into Moses by passing through the sea (10:1-3). He said that THEIR fathers drank of the spiritual Rock that guided them and that Rock was Christ. None of this is true of genetic gentiles.

Now please answer the op. Paul told the Corinthians who were believing Israelites that THEY would be resurrected and raptured according to the promise made to Israel in Hosea 13:14.

Either the rapture belongs to Israel and not the Church or the Church is Israel. It's that simple!

thinker

Offline stevehut

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #18 on: Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 11:25:05 »
Thinker, I don't understand your premise.

The Rapture is a sovereign function of God himself, not of any church.

Offline DaveW

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #19 on: Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:39:41 »
1. The "gentiles" were the lost northern tribes. Paul was NOT an apostle to genetic gentiles. The lost northern tribes were the "gentiles" that came into the body (Eph. 2). The proof is in the historical fact that Christ "came and preached" to THEM (Eph. 2:17). Christ came and preached ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

How many times do we have to go over this?

2. The Corinthians were believing Israelites. Paul said that THEIR fathers were baptized into Moses by passing through the sea (10:1-3). He said that THEIR fathers drank of the spiritual Rock that guided them and that Rock was Christ. None of this is true of genetic gentiles.
I have argued successfully with the originators of the "ephraimite" error before - the Wootons. Paul was talking to genetic gentiles PERIOD. Read Romans 11. Gentiles are GRAFTED IN. That makes us heirs by adoption. IN that way Moses and Abraham became our fathers.
Quote
Now please answer the op. Paul told the Corinthians who were believing Israelites that THEY would be resurrected and raptured according to the promise made to Israel in Hosea 13:14.

Either the rapture belongs to Israel and not the Church or the Church is Israel. It's that simple!
It belongs to Israel and those who have been grafted into Israel against nature.

Jesus came ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel.  That is why he ignored the Caananite woman with the demonized daughter. But HE authorized the Apostles to go beyond where He went (greater works) and take it to the gentiles. (Acts 1)

Lehigh

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #20 on: Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 20:58:54 »

Some of the Corinthians may have been Jews.  But I think Paul is addressing gentiles for the most part.
1Cor.12:2,
You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols.


What I understand about 1Cor.15 is that the gentile Christians denied the resurrection of the dead of the pre-Christ church. They thought those who were in Hades would not inherit the kingdom as those in Christ would. They believed that those dead were lost for eternity. But Paul discusses the futility of their denial, and tells them that that "body" will be raised.

Offline DaveW

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #21 on: Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 05:33:20 »
Quote
Some of the Corinthians may have been Jews.  But I think Paul is addressing gentiles for the most part.
Exactly.  Since Paul always started in the synagogues in each city, every congregation had a group of Jewish and God-fearer believers. But they were not the majority of each congregation so most of his concerns were to the Genile congregants.

Amo

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #22 on: Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 09:35:00 »
Quote
It belongs to Israel and those who have been grafted into Israel against nature.

Jesus came ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel.  That is why he ignored the Caananite woman with the demonized daughter. But HE authorized the Apostles to go beyond where He went (greater works) and take it to the gentiles. (Acts 1)

Christ is the vine, not Israel.  They are and were branches which can be broken off of the vine, or graft back into the same if they remain not, in unbelief.  They were, and can be God's people because of their attachment to Christ alone.  Gentiles are most certainly not graft into the vine of a literal nation that does not accept Christ as the Messiah, but rather into the new covenant spiritual Israel which did, and does accept Christ as the promised Messiah of the Jews, and the entire world. 

Christ Himself, and all the Apostles, and earliest followers of the same were all Jews. They were the remnant of Israel, and became the founders of the new covenant spiritual Israel which was to bring the blessings of literal Israel upon all those of all nations that would accept Christ as the promised Messiah.  This is all foretold in the scriptures.  Why will you continue to call people that will have none of Christ, God's chosen people?

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:1-10 (KJV)


Offline DaveW

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #23 on: Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 10:08:58 »
Quote
Christ is the vine, not Israel.  They are and were branches which can be broken off of the vine, or graft back into the same if they remain not, in unbelief.  They were, and can be God's people because of their attachment to Christ alone.  Gentiles are most certainly not graft into the vine of a literal nation that does not accept Christ as the Messiah, but rather into the new covenant spiritual Israel which did, and does accept Christ as the promised Messiah of the Jews, and the entire world.
Wrong image.  I am using the olive tree image from Romans 11 which speaks to relationship between unbelieving Jews and believing gentiles.   The vine of John 15 is addressing something else. It does not have anything to do with the Jew/Gentile issue at all.

Read Romans 11 again.  Carefully.

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #24 on: Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 10:23:04 »
Dave W is correct

Romans 11 settles the dispute

Paul gives the distinctive differences between Israel and the Gentiles on every turn in this passage .... from the nation's beginning and its future restoration for a believing remnant of the same that will be the core of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom on the earth

There is no support from Romans 11 for the replacement theologist to claim that the Lord's church is now all of Israel and that He is finished with His nation .... He is not and this should be evident

Not only that, but there are a number of very significant scriptures that concur 100%

 

Offline Palmtree77

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #25 on: Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 11:47:59 »
Praise the Lord,

The Corinthian church consisted of Saints just like us.

The Apostle Paul refers to the Church as the resurrection is not exclusive to the rapture.
The remnant cannot be raptured because they do not receive Christ and cannot not until the end for the sake of the Gentiles.

The children of Israel is not the same as the Church as evident in many places like

II Corinthians 3:15,16 "But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away."


Verse 13 makes it clear God refers to the Children of Israel.

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #26 on: Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 13:21:45 »
Your are correct Palmtree ..... with no doubt

thethinker

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #27 on: Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 14:03:53 »
Quote
Some of the Corinthians may have been Jews.  But I think Paul is addressing gentiles for the most part.
Exactly.  Since Paul always started in the synagogues in each city, every congregation had a group of Jewish and God-fearer believers. But they were not the majority of each congregation so most of his concerns were to the Genile congregants.

Nope! Paul said that their fathers passed through the sea and were baptized into Moses (ch 10). The fathers of genetic gentiles did NOT pass through the sea and were NOT baptized into Moses.

Therefore, the Corinthians were believing Israelites. Paul promised THEM that THEY would be resurrected AND raptured in fulfillment of the promise to immortalize Israel in Hosea 13:14.

Paul's concerns were to those "gentiles" who lived in the Diaspora in a gentile environment without being circumcised. It was those whom the Jews called the "uncircumcision" and it was for them that Paul became a prisoner (3:1).

Genetic gentiles did not come into the covenant until after ad70 except for a token few.

Furthermore, the Corinthians had the Holy Spirit. The genetic gentiles did not have the Holy Spirit. Paul said that "WE who have the firstfruits of the Spirit" (Israelites) are eagerly waiting for the adoption with the "whole creation" (genteic gentiles).


thinker

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #28 on: Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 16:19:13 »
Quote
Some of the Corinthians may have been Jews.  But I think Paul is addressing gentiles for the most part.
Exactly.  Since Paul always started in the synagogues in each city, every congregation had a group of Jewish and God-fearer believers. But they were not the majority of each congregation so most of his concerns were to the Genile congregants.

Nope! Paul said that their fathers passed through the sea and were baptized into Moses (ch 10). The fathers of genetic gentiles did NOT pass through the sea and were NOT baptized into Moses.

Therefore, the Corinthians were believing Israelites. Paul promised THEM that THEY would be resurrected AND raptured in fulfillment of the promise to immortalize Israel in Hosea 13:14.

Paul's concerns were to those "gentiles" who lived in the Diaspora in a gentile environment without being circumcised. It was those whom the Jews called the "uncircumcision" and it was for them that Paul became a prisoner (3:1).

Genetic gentiles did not come into the covenant until after ad70 except for a token few.

Furthermore, the Corinthians had the Holy Spirit. The genetic gentiles did not have the Holy Spirit. Paul said that "WE who have the firstfruits of the Spirit" (Israelites) are eagerly waiting for the adoption with the "whole creation" (genteic gentiles).


thinker
The thinker, I have to disagree with that account of "church history" in your post.
In 1Cor.10, using the example of Israel in the wilderness, Paul warned the Corinthians not to eat food sacrificed to idols in pagan temples, because this is idolatry, a communion with demons.
While it is true that many of Paul's churches sprang from synagogues, the gentile believers became the majority.
The "Corinthians" WERE mostly genetic gentiles. The only gnetic gentiles who had not the Spirit were the pagan Romans in the N.T.

 If we compare the book of Acts with Paul's epistles, the Jews were a minority. He and Barnabas and others "went to the Gentiles" early on. (Acts 13:46; 18:6)

I don't think you are right here about Jewish believers in Corinthians (Romans, Thess., etc.)

thethinker

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #29 on: Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 18:04:36 »
Lehigh wrote:
Quote
The thinker, I have to disagree with that account of "church history" in your post.
In 1Cor.10, using the example of Israel in the wilderness, Paul warned the Corinthians not to eat food sacrificed to idols in pagan temples, because this is idolatry, a communion with demons.
While it is true that many of Paul's churches sprang from synagogues, the gentile believers became the majority.
The "Corinthians" WERE mostly genetic gentiles. The only gnetic gentiles who had not the Spirit were the pagan Romans in the N.T.

 If we compare the book of Acts with Paul's epistles, the Jews were a minority. He and Barnabas and others "went to the Gentiles" early on. (Acts 13:46; 18:6)

I don't think you are right here about Jewish believers in Corinthians (Romans, Thess., etc.)

Hey Lehigh,

I hate having to disagree with a fellow Prterist but there were no genetic gentiles in the church at Corinth. Paul said that "OUR fathers" passed through the sea and were baptized into Moses. Afterwards THEIR fathers tempted the Lord. Paul was drawing the illustration from THEIR OWN ancestry and history. Therefore, the saints at the church at Corinth were the descendants of Israel. They were believing Israelites.

Paul nowhere addresses genetic gentiles in his two epistles to the Corinthians.

Genetic gentiles did NOT have the Spirit. In Romans 8 Paul clearly said that "WE (Jews) have the firstfruits of the Spirit." He was speaking to "them that know the law" (Jews, 7:1). In Romans 2 Paul said that God was justifying genetic gentiles according to the law that was written in their hearts and in their consciences. They had never heard the gospel and so they knew nothing of the Spirit or of Spirit baptism.  But they were just as saved as the Jew who had the Spirit.

Your reference to Acts 13 is NOT about genetic gentiles. It is about those of Israel who had been inculturated by the genetic gentiles and had become "gentiles" themselves. Paul said "We go to the gentiles" meaning secularized Jews.

thinker

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #30 on: Tue Dec 06, 2011 - 18:39:30 »
the thinker,

"Secularized Jews?"  (you must have lived in Brooklyn!)

I don't think that was the problem when it came to uniting the Jews and Gentiles in Christ.
What was a problem was that the at first the Hebrews insisted that the Gentiles first convert to Judaism (proselytes),  be circumcised, and obey the law of Moses to be part of the church.

When Paul says "our fathers passed through the sea"  to me, he is drawing from his own Hebrew roots, not theirs.

And thethinker, "gentiles" are just that - either pagans or former pagans, distinguishing them from the genetic Jews.
Wasn't Jerusalem and the temple in Rev.11 given to the "Gentiles" to "trod the holy city underfoot for 42 months?" And these were the pagan Romans. I think you agree with that.
Ephraim (the 10 northern tribes) may have become like the nations. But they aren't called "gentiles" in Scripture. Some of them would be part of the New Jerusalem too for the sake of the fathers/ or for God's holy name. Some were that "present remnant elected by grace" - the 144,000. Remnant always refers to Jews in Scripture. "Babylon" refers to the Judaizers, not "gentiles" as you say.

I think most scholars will agree with me about the "gentiles."

I think the traditional view is true here.

But I won't argue the point in the "end-times" category.  Perhaps in Theology or Apologetics?  



Offline DaveW

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #31 on: Wed Dec 07, 2011 - 05:36:23 »
Thinker - your insistance that the Corinth and Rome congregations were genetic Israelites is just flat out WRONG. Your insistance that Paul was not the apostle to the genetic Gentiles does damage to the plain meaning of scripture. And your insistance that genetic Gentiles do not have the Spirit is just plain insulting.

There is no evidence anywhere that native Romans and Greeks were EVER related to the Jews. Nothing linguisticly, nothing historically and nothing geneticly.

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #32 on: Wed Dec 07, 2011 - 08:29:55 »
Preterism is accompanied with some very strange ideas from those who enbrace the theology that are obviously contradictive to the scriptures and to the historical record

This they must do in order to manipulate the full context of the prophetic word for selling another gospel

thethinker

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #33 on: Wed Dec 07, 2011 - 08:32:50 »
Lehigh wrote:
Quote
When Paul says "our fathers passed through the sea"  to me, he is drawing from his own Hebrew roots, not theirs.

You are mistaken. Paul is drawing from THEIR Hebrew roots as well as his own. In 2 Corinthians 3 Paul told them that he was the administrator of the new covenant "not according to the letter." He said that the Corinthians were being changed from the image of Moses to the image of Christ . Moses represented the letter of the law with all its ceremonial mandates. Genetic gentiles were NEVER under Moses so it would have made no sense to them for Paul to say that they were being changed from the image of Moses to the image of Christ. Therefore, these "gentiles" were of the Diaspora. They were Israelites.

Paul was speaking to the Diaspora in Galatians 4. He said that when  they were "under the law" before Christ came. The "law" in the context is the ceremoial law (i.e., circumcision). Genetic gentiles were NEVER under the the ceremonial law. Therefore, the "gentiles" in Galatians were the Diaspora.

Again in Ephesians 2 Paul was speaking to the Diaspora. They were the "gentiles" for whom Paul became a prisoner (3:1).  In 2:17 it says that Christ "came and preached" to them. Christ was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

You assume that the "gentiles" in Acts 13 were genetic gentiles because Paul said, "We go to the gentiles." Then why did Paul go only to the Jewish synagogues where the common Israelites went to hear the reading of the law? The word "gentiles" in Acts 13 is a distinction of class and not of race. The term "gentiles" in Acts 13 distinguished the common Israelite from the Jewish leadership.

Paul forsook giving the gospel to the Jewish leadership and went to the synagogues to give it to the common Jew (gentile). He did NOT seek out genetic gentiles. He was taken BY FORCE to them at the Areopagus and he spoke to them while being transported a prisoner.

He was a prisoner for preaching to Israelites (the Diaspora, compare Acts 26-28 with Ephesians 3:1).


Finally, John saw the Bride of Christ depicted as the New Jerusalem and was told that the names of twelve apostles were written on the foundation and the names of the twelve tribes of Israel were written on the gates (Rev. 21). The names of genetic gentiles are NOT written on the bride of Christ!


Please address the issues below:

1. Show where Paul addressed genetic gentiles in his two epistles to the Corinthians.

2. Show how genetic gentiles were in the image of Moses (2 Cor 3)

3. Show where genetic gentiles were under the ceremonial law before Christ came (Gal. 4)

4. Show where Paul sought out genetic gentiles with the gospel after he forsook giving the gospel to the Jewish leadership (Acts 13, ff).

5. Show where the names of genetic gentiles are written on the Bride of Christ (Rev. 21).

thanks,

thinker



Amo

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Re: The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel
« Reply #34 on: Wed Dec 07, 2011 - 08:39:06 »
Quote
Wrong image.  I am using the olive tree image from Romans 11 which speaks to relationship between unbelieving Jews and believing gentiles.   The vine of John 15 is addressing something else. It does not have anything to do with the Jew/Gentile issue at all.

Read Romans 11 again.  Carefully.

The messages are essentially the same.  The grape vine, and the olive tree are both symbols applied to Israel, and both were planted by the Lord.  The product of both, wine and olive oil are representative of the Holy Spirit of God in the scriptures. The message is the same as that of the vine. Whether vine, or tree, those braches which do not produce fruit are broken off and replaced with those that do.

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. John 15:1-2 (KJV)

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. Romans 11:19-23 (KJV)

That the Lord planted both -

8 Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it. 9 Thou preparedst room before it, and didst cause it to take deep root, and it filled the land. 10 The hills were covered with the shadow of it, and the boughs thereof were like the goodly cedars. 11 She sent out her boughs unto the sea, and her branches unto the river. 12 Why hast thou then broken down her hedges, so that all they which pass by the way do pluck her? 13 The boar out of the wood doth waste it, and the wild beast of the field doth devour it. 14 Return, we beseech thee, O God of hosts: look down from heaven, and behold, and visit this vine; 15 And the vineyard which thy right hand hath planted, and the branch that thou madest strong for thyself.  Psalms 80:8-15 (KJV)

4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? 5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: 6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. 7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry. Isaiah 5:4-7 (KJV)


16 The Lord called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken. 17 For the Lord of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal. Jer 11:16-17 (KJV)

That they are both used symbolically in reference to Israel -

1 Blessed is every one that feareth the Lord; that walketh in his ways. 2 For thou shalt eat the labour of thine hands: happy shalt thou be, and it shall be well with thee. 3 Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round about thy table. 4 Behold, that thus shall the man be blessed that feareth the Lord. Psalms 128:1-4 (KJV)

They are a sign of blessing and abundance when Israel is right with the Lord.

6 Yet gleaning grapes shall be left in it, as the shaking of an olive tree, two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four or five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith the Lord God of Israel. 7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel. 8 And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made, either the groves, or the images. 9 In that day shall his strong cities be as a forsaken bough, and an uppermost branch, which they left because of the children of Israel: and there shall be desolation. 10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips: 11 In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow. Isaiah 17:6-11 (KJV)

Their lack is also a sign of Israel when but few are being faithful to God.  This could not apply to any time better, than when Israel rejected the “God of their salvation

 

     
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