The Church cannot "steal" the rapture from Israel

[Lehigh]

the thinker,

"Secularized Jews?"  (you must have lived in Brooklyn!)

I don't think that was the problem when it came to uniting the Jews and Gentiles in Christ.
What was a problem was that the at first the Hebrews insisted that the Gentiles first convert to Judaism (proselytes),  be circumcised, and obey the law of Moses to be part of the church.

When Paul says "our fathers passed through the sea"  to me, he is drawing from his own Hebrew roots, not theirs.

And thethinker, "gentiles" are just that - either pagans or former pagans, distinguishing them from the genetic Jews.
Wasn't Jerusalem and the temple in Rev.11 given to the "Gentiles" to "trod the holy city underfoot for 42 months?" And these were the pagan Romans. I think you agree with that.
Ephraim (the 10 northern tribes) may have become like the nations. But they aren't called "gentiles" in Scripture. Some of them would be part of the New Jerusalem too for the sake of the fathers/ or for God's holy name. Some were that "present remnant elected by grace" - the 144,000. Remnant always refers to Jews in Scripture. "Babylon" refers to the Judaizers, not "gentiles" as you say.

I think most scholars will agree with me about the "gentiles."

I think the traditional view is true here.

But I won't argue the point in the "end-times" category.  Perhaps in Theology or Apologetics?  

[DaveW]

Thinker - your insistance that the Corinth and Rome congregations were genetic Israelites is just flat out WRONG. Your insistance that Paul was not the apostle to the genetic Gentiles does damage to the plain meaning of scripture. And your insistance that genetic Gentiles do not have the Spirit is just plain insulting.

There is no evidence anywhere that native Romans and Greeks were EVER related to the Jews. Nothing linguisticly, nothing historically and nothing geneticly.

[Linker]

Preterism is accompanied with some very strange ideas from those who enbrace the theology that are obviously contradictive to the scriptures and to the historical record

This they must do in order to manipulate the full context of the prophetic word for selling another gospel

[thethinker]

Lehigh wrote:

When Paul says "our fathers passed through the sea"  to me, he is drawing from his own Hebrew roots, not theirs.

You are mistaken. Paul is drawing from THEIR Hebrew roots as well as his own. In 2 Corinthians 3 Paul told them that he was the administrator of the new covenant "not according to the letter." He said that the Corinthians were being changed from the image of Moses to the image of Christ . Moses represented the letter of the law with all its ceremonial mandates. Genetic gentiles were NEVER under Moses so it would have made no sense to them for Paul to say that they were being changed from the image of Moses to the image of Christ. Therefore, these "gentiles" were of the Diaspora. They were Israelites.

Paul was speaking to the Diaspora in Galatians 4. He said that when  they were "under the law" before Christ came. The "law" in the context is the ceremoial law (i.e., circumcision). Genetic gentiles were NEVER under the the ceremonial law. Therefore, the "gentiles" in Galatians were the Diaspora.

Again in Ephesians 2 Paul was speaking to the Diaspora. They were the "gentiles" for whom Paul became a prisoner (3:1).  In 2:17 it says that Christ "came and preached" to them. Christ was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

You assume that the "gentiles" in Acts 13 were genetic gentiles because Paul said, "We go to the gentiles." Then why did Paul go only to the Jewish synagogues where the common Israelites went to hear the reading of the law? The word "gentiles" in Acts 13 is a distinction of class and not of race. The term "gentiles" in Acts 13 distinguished the common Israelite from the Jewish leadership.

Paul forsook giving the gospel to the Jewish leadership and went to the synagogues to give it to the common Jew (gentile). He did NOT seek out genetic gentiles. He was taken BY FORCE to them at the Areopagus and he spoke to them while being transported a prisoner.

He was a prisoner for preaching to Israelites (the Diaspora, compare Acts 26-28 with Ephesians 3:1).

Finally, John saw the Bride of Christ depicted as the New Jerusalem and was told that the names of twelve apostles were written on the foundation and the names of the twelve tribes of Israel were written on the gates (Rev. 21). The names of genetic gentiles are NOT written on the bride of Christ!


Please address the issues below:

1. Show where Paul addressed genetic gentiles in his two epistles to the Corinthians.

2. Show how genetic gentiles were in the image of Moses (2 Cor 3)

3. Show where genetic gentiles were under the ceremonial law before Christ came (Gal. 4)

4. Show where Paul sought out genetic gentiles with the gospel after he forsook giving the gospel to the Jewish leadership (Acts 13, ff).

5. Show where the names of genetic gentiles are written on the Bride of Christ (Rev. 21).

thanks,

thinker

[Amo]

Wrong image.  I am using the olive tree image from Romans 11 which speaks to relationship between unbelieving Jews and believing gentiles.   The vine of John 15 is addressing something else. It does not have anything to do with the Jew/Gentile issue at all.

Read Romans 11 again.  Carefully.

The messages are essentially the same.  The grape vine, and the olive tree are both symbols applied to Israel, and both were planted by the Lord.  The product of both, wine and olive oil are representative of the Holy Spirit of God in the scriptures. The message is the same as that of the vine. Whether vine, or tree, those braches which do not produce fruit are broken off and replaced with those that do.

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. John 15:1-2 (KJV)

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. Romans 11:19-23 (KJV)

That the Lord planted both -

8 Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it. 9 Thou preparedst room before it, and didst cause it to take deep root, and it filled the land. 10 The hills were covered with the shadow of it, and the boughs thereof were like the goodly cedars. 11 She sent out her boughs unto the sea, and her branches unto the river. 12 Why hast thou then broken down her hedges, so that all they which pass by the way do pluck her? 13 The boar out of the wood doth waste it, and the wild beast of the field doth devour it. 14 Return, we beseech thee, O God of hosts: look down from heaven, and behold, and visit this vine; 15 And the vineyard which thy right hand hath planted, and the branch that thou madest strong for thyself.  Psalms 80:8-15 (KJV)

4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? 5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: 6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. 7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry. Isaiah 5:4-7 (KJV)

16 The Lord called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken. 17 For the Lord of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal. Jer 11:16-17 (KJV)

That they are both used symbolically in reference to Israel -

1 Blessed is every one that feareth the Lord; that walketh in his ways. 2 For thou shalt eat the labour of thine hands: happy shalt thou be, and it shall be well with thee. 3 Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round about thy table. 4 Behold, that thus shall the man be blessed that feareth the Lord. Psalms 128:1-4 (KJV)

They are a sign of blessing and abundance when Israel is right with the Lord.

6 Yet gleaning grapes shall be left in it, as the shaking of an olive tree, two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four or five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith the Lord God of Israel. 7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel. 8 And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made, either the groves, or the images. 9 In that day shall his strong cities be as a forsaken bough, and an uppermost branch, which they left because of the children of Israel: and there shall be desolation. 10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips: 11 In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow. Isaiah 17:6-11 (KJV)

Their lack is also a sign of Israel when but few are being faithful to God.  This could not apply to any time better, than when Israel rejected the “God of their salvation

[DaveW]

Wrong image.  I am using the olive tree image from Romans 11 which speaks to relationship between unbelieving Jews and believing gentiles.   The vine of John 15 is addressing something else. It does not have anything to do with the Jew/Gentile issue at all.

Read Romans 11 again.  Carefully.

The messages are essentially the same.  The grape vine, and the olive tree are both symbols applied to Israel, and both were planted by the Lord.  The product of both, wine and olive oil are representative of the Holy Spirit of God in the scriptures. The message is the same as that of the vine. Whether vine, or tree, those braches which do not produce fruit are broken off and replaced with those that do.

Not the same image or the same point at all.  In John Jesus was talking about believers (regardless of ethnicity) abiding in Him for their life. There is only one group being talked about - believers.

In Romans 11 Paul is using the trees to illustrate the relationship of gentiles and Jews, both believing and unbelieving.  That means Paul is listing 4 groups - believing and unbelieving Jews and believing and unbelieving Gentiles.

[thethinker]

Wrong image.  I am using the olive tree image from Romans 11 which speaks to relationship between unbelieving Jews and believing gentiles.   The vine of John 15 is addressing something else. It does not have anything to do with the Jew/Gentile issue at all.

Read Romans 11 again.  Carefully.

The messages are essentially the same.  The grape vine, and the olive tree are both symbols applied to Israel, and both were planted by the Lord.  The product of both, wine and olive oil are representative of the Holy Spirit of God in the scriptures. The message is the same as that of the vine. Whether vine, or tree, those braches which do not produce fruit are broken off and replaced with those that do.

Not the same image or the same point at all.  In John Jesus was talking about believers (regardless of ethnicity) abiding in Him for their life. There is only one group being talked about - believers.

In Romans 11 Paul is using the trees to illustrate the relationship of gentiles and Jews, both believing and unbelieving.  That means Paul is listing 4 groups - believing and unbelieving Jews and believing and unbelieving Gentiles.

No! In John Jesus was speaking to His disciples about abiding in Him in order to BEAR FRUIT (believers).

In Romans 11 Paul uses the trees to describe Israel under the old covenant ("wild" tree), and Israel under the new covenant ("cultivated" tree). They are one and the same tree.

The "gentiles" were those of Israel who were of the Diaspora who had been severed from the "wild" tree (oc Israel) and had been grafted back in the "cultivated" tree (nc Israel).

Paul said that those "gentiles" came into the covenant to confirm the promises made to the fathers regarding the salvation of the disobedient of Israel (Romans 15:7-12).

thinker

[DaveW]

Sorry Thinker, that does not fit the text.  Natural Israelites are Broken [not cut] from the cultivated tree due to unbelief. So the wild olive tree CANNOT be unbelieving Israel.

And where does your theory leave true gentiles who come to faith? What tree are they born in?

[stevehut]

Thinker, I don't understand your premise.

The Rapture is a sovereign function of God himself, not of any church.

Can someone answer this for me?

[thethinker]

Sorry Thinker, that does not fit the text.  Natural Israelites are Broken [not cut] from the cultivated tree due to unbelief. So the wild olive tree CANNOT be unbelieving Israel.

And where does your theory leave true gentiles who come to faith? What tree are they born in?

I said that the "wild" olive tree was OLD COVENANT Israel. I did NOT say that the "wild" tree was unbelieving Israel.

And where does your theory leave true gentiles who come to faith? What tree are they born in?

True gentiles are not branches. They are the olive fruit.

Natural branches: Believing Jews

Unnatural branches: Israelites formerly removed from the tree when it was wild and grafted back in when God cultivated it. While outside the covenant they were the same as all other gentiles

Olive fruit: True gentiles who came to faith

True gentiles could not have the gospel preached to them until ALL Israel of that last generation had heard it first. True gentiles were being justified apart from the gospel (Romans 2:12-16).

thinker


 

[Lehigh]

Sorry Thinker, that does not fit the text.  Natural Israelites are Broken [not cut] from the cultivated tree due to unbelief. So the wild olive tree CANNOT be unbelieving Israel.

And where does your theory leave true gentiles who come to faith? What tree are they born in?

Agreed.  I think thethinker is being a bit of a "judaizer" himself in his interpretation here.
The "wild branches" are the gentiles who were grafted in and adopted by faith. Israel (genetic) were the "natural branches" whether they were Hebrew Christians or wicked Pharisees.

When John is shown the "Bride" in Rev.21, notice he is shown the city. We gentile Christians are a part of the New Jerusalem, where righteousness dwells. The New Jerusalem which is free, the mother of us all.

The "fruits" we bear are the fruits of the Spirit.

In Acts.13:47 Paul quotes Isaiah 49.  These Gentiles are the uncircumcised, former heathen.
Blessing and Conflict at Antioch
   
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue,[j] the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:


      ‘ I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
      That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’

[Eagle]

Is a believer a gentile? 

G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
 
I am not a pagan

I have been given citizenship. Given it by the Creator! 

1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Exo 19:5  Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6  And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

[Amo]

I have been given citizenship. Given it by the Creator!

1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Exo 19:5  Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6  And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Christ's church is the Israel of God.

Exod 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1 Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Israel was said to be a peculiar people of God, a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.  The Church of Christ is given all the same attributes.

Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. 10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Though many of Israel would not be God’s people, yet the number of the children of Israel would be as the sand of the sea.  This would be accomplished when those who were not called God’s people, should be called the sons of the living God.  The Church is composed of those who were not the people of God, who became the people of God. They are the children of promise that are counted for the seed, which are the children of God. They are no longer strangers, but fellow citizens with the saints and of the very household of God.

Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

1 Pet 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

As Israel was called to be a holy people unto God, so the Church is called to be a holy people unto God.

Deut 4:20 But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

AS Israel were a people of inheritance to God, so the Church are a people of inheritance to God.

Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

As the Lord was the shepherd of Israel, so the Lord is the shepherd of the Church.

Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

As Israel was saved with everlasting salvation, so the Church is saved with eternal salvation.

Lev 26:11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you. 12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

Exod 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary;that I may dwell among them.

Exod 29:44 And I will sanctify the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to me in the priest's office.
45 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.
46 And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

2 Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

As God placed His temple in the midst of Israel, that He might dwell among them, so Christ became the living temple and dwelt among us.  The Church is connected to God through His Son Jesus Christ in a way far superior to that capable of being so during the old covenant dispensation. God became one of us, and therefore the living temple of God in human flesh, of which the Church is the body.  Now all who are in Christ are truly literal flesh and blood children of God.

Isa 54: 5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Hosea 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

Jer 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

[thethinker]

Jesus said that the resurrection "NOW IS" (John 5:25-29) and Paul said that both the resurrection and the judgment are "about to be" (Acts 24:15, 25). The words "about to be" are one word in the Greek and it is the same word Jesus used when He said, "I am about to be delivered into the hands of men."

The resurrection and judgment of Israel has already happened. We are now in the eternal new covenant dispensation. The resurrection was for Israel (Hosea 13:14; Acts 26:7-8).

The church cannot "steal" the resurrection and the rapture from Israel.

thinker

[DaveW]

Thinker I am racking my brain trying to figure out how your doctrine got so screwed up. It is giving me a headache. That mess of romans 11 is so bad I don't even know where to begin.

As to the resurrection and rapture, are you referring to the saints of old that resurrected with Jesus?

Mat 27:50  And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
Mat 27:51  And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.
Mat 27:52  The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
Mat 27:53  and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.


Act 1:9  And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

The word for "cloud" is the same one used for "cloud" here:

Heb 12:1  Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

G3509
νέφος
nephos
nef'-os
Apparently a primary word; a cloud: - cloud.

I take that to possibly mean that all those saints that rose with Him also ascended with Him.  That is the ONLY thing I can think of that you are referring to.