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Offline WorldWithoutEnd

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The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« on: Tue Sep 15, 2015 - 11:39:38 »
The Wolf and the Lamb - by Allyn Morton

by Allyn Morton February 22, 2015


If you are familiar with the futurist's view or maybe have come out of this camp you will be just as familiar with the position this futurist camp holds on chapter 11 of Isaiah and in paticular verses 6 and 7. As you may know the futurist holds to the idea that these two verses are specifically referring to a time on earth when a thousand year period of time (literal) will take place when Jesus will reign over the entire earth and the earth will be subdued by this reign. It will be a time, by their estimation, when all creatures, likewise, will have been subdued and will no longer act upon the instincts placed within them by their creator but instead will become docile and a community of passive loving animals towards one another and with the peoples of the earth who will also live among these creatures exhibiting no fear from one to the other.

However, I would like to present what I believe to be what these verses actually mean and by allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture you too may come to my conclusions or some refined version of them.

In Isaiah 11 we see a picture of Jesus in His first coming, and when we read of the wolf and the lamb as they lie down together and we might say in what sense is this a reality? The answer to that is really quite interesting. Its one of those answers that made my spirit jump within me. I may not be able to convey to you the same sense of exitement I felt when I discovered this, but I am sure you will certainly have something to think about and you may never look at these verses in the same way again. This comes right from the pages of the prophets.

Notice what Isaiah says: 6 “ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

In each case you have what the Jew would call a clean animal and an unclean animal. A docile animal and a ferocious agressive carniverous animal. The four carniverous animals mentioned are a lion, a leopard, a bear and a wolf. These same animals, at least three of the four, are mentioned in Daniel chapter 7 as Gentile nations that rose up in the persecution of the Jews. The first of the four beasts was like a lion, the second like a bear, the third like a leopard, the fourth is not said to be a wolf but is simply discribed as an indescribeable ferocious beast. Its not called a wolf but it is interesting that in the New Testament Jesus and the Apostles warned us about wolves - but the interesting thing here is that the Gentile nations in Daniel are discribed as these very same animals.

And then, of course, the docile animals, the clean animals, are all sacrificial animals. The cow, the lamb, the kid, all the things mentioned here that lie down peaceably with the ferocious animals, are pictured as the clean animal. Now, when God said you should not plow with an ox and an ass together, which means you cannot put them under one yoke, the reason being the ox was a clean animal and the ass an unclean animal. Paul told his hearers to not be equally yoked together with unbelievers. Implying the clean and unclean animals. This is a spiritualization of God's people and those who are not God's.

Now look at Ezekiel 34. Here we have a parable, more or less, a figurative prophecy where Israel is compared to God's flock. The leaders of Israel are compared to the shepherds, and he is decrying the shepherds for the improper shepherding saying: Woe to the shepherds that feed themselves, should not the shepherd feed the flock. And He goes on that He is going to replace those shepherds of Israel with a Shepherd (meaning Jesus).

23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them—My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd.

But the interesting thing here is the part of the new covenant that Jesus will establish. He says in verse 25:

25 “I will make a covenant of peace with them, and cause wild beasts to cease from the land; and they will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods. 26 I will make them and the places all around My hill a blessing;... 28 And they shall no longer be a prey for the nations, nor shall beasts of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and no one shall make them afraid.

I believe this is Hebrew parallelism when beasts of the land are identified with the nations (heathen). What I am saying here is that the Hebrew prophets would sometimes compare the Jews with clean animals and compare the Gentiles, who are unclean, with unclean animals. There has always been hostility between the nations and Israel just has there is between the ferocious animals and the docile. But in Christ, these would lie down peaceably.

Looking now at Ephesians 2: 12-16 we read from Paul what exactly Jesus did accomplish.

12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Of the two, Jesus has taken the believing portions of the Jews and the believing portions of the Gentiles and made one - the body of Christ, the church. And he is saying that God has removed the enmity that existed between the Jew and the Gentile and in Christ God has made them one.

I am personally convinced - you are free to disagree - that Isaiah is speaking figuritively of this very thing. That the clean animal and the unclean animal, formerly hostile to one another, as a result of Jesus coming has made us one in Him. They are harmonously one together.

Now, if we need any further evidence, turn to Isaiah 11 again and see at the end of verse 6 where it says:

And a little child shall lead them.

Jesus made that statement also in Matthew 18:1-4

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Then back to Isaiah 11:8-9;

8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD...

Would I be taking too many liberties in saying that these poisonous snakes could refer to demons or to the devil which is commonly in Scripture referred to as a serpent or a dragon? If I say that, then what we see is the most vulnerable of God's people, the little children themselves have authority over the serpent. [The] child shall play by the cobra’s hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.

Let's look at Luke chapter 10:17 Here is where Jesus says to the 70:

17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” 18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

When Jesus said, " and nothing shall by any means hurt you." I hear an echo of Isaiah saying: 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain.

I think Jesus is referring back to this passage saying; "You little children, I have given you authority over the serpents. Nothing shall hurt you, they shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain".

1 John 4, talking about the spirit of the antichrist, then says in verse 4:

4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

This is about the spirit of the antichrist - the demonic powers that seek to keep people in darkness - and little children have overcome these. We are God's little children.

Is. 11:8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD...

In my opinion, these are spiritual fulfillments in our own lives today. I don't see the end of verse 9 completed yet because but I do think each generation heads in that direction. Because Jesus came, this is how it will all end up, and because Jesus came, because He has given authority to His people to stomp down the devil (the adversary), because of the great commission and the new life in Christ, this message will be carried to others forever.


© Allyn Morton
« Last Edit: Tue Sep 15, 2015 - 11:50:29 by WorldWithoutEnd »

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The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« on: Tue Sep 15, 2015 - 11:39:38 »

Offline WorldWithoutEnd

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Re: The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« Reply #1 on: Tue Sep 15, 2015 - 18:30:13 »
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Offline raggthyme13

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Re: The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« Reply #2 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 02:28:39 »
I really, really enjoy William Bell. He has so many great videos on youtube! He is no nonsense, straight from the word, not much in the way of opinion. One of my favorite.
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 03:05:10 by raggthyme13 »

Offline WorldWithoutEnd

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Re: The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« Reply #3 on: Tue Sep 22, 2015 - 18:11:19 »
I really, really enjoy William Bell. He has so many great videos on youtube! He is no nonsense, straight from the word, not much in the way of opinion. One of my favorite.


Yes, William Bell is also one of my favorites along with Don K Preston and David B Curtis (Berean Bible Church), all of them are excellent full preterist channels on youtube.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jan 14, 2020 - 12:21:06 »
This subject of the animal symbolism in Isaiah 11 I have addressed before on another Preterist website.

The original poster was absolutely correct that this is fulfilled in the final, *ULTIMATE* SENSE by having spiritual fellowship and union exist between those who were once divided into Jew and Gentile categories.  In Christ, these who were formerly alienated are now lying down in peace together in the “One New Man” reality of the New Covenant.

However, there was another sense that this prophecy was originally intended to convey to its first audience who read or heard this prophecy.  Originally, this was meant to show the restored fellowship between Ephraim and Judah in the post-exilic return after the Babylonian captivity was over. 

We remember the hatred between the divided kingdom in the days of Rehoboam, Solomon’s son.  The Northern kingdom (Ephraim) - the so-called “wolf” - became totally alienated from the Southern kingdom of Judah - the so-called “lamb”.  The antagonism between these kingdoms was so intense that they were prepared to go to war with each other initially.  The Northern kingdom never had a single good king in its entire history; Judah (the comparatively “clean” kingdom represented by the lamb) considered that Northern kingdom (represented by the wolf) to be as “unclean” as the Gentile nations. 

However, when God for the second time would “gather the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah” (Is.11:11-12) in the post-exilic return authorized and encouraged by Cyrus, both the “clean” animals of Judah and the “unclean” animals of Ephraim would lie down together in peace in the restored nation with the temple rebuilt by Zerubbabel. 

The “young ones” of both these regathered groups (Ephraim and Judah) would “lie down together” (Is.11:7) - indicating intermarriage between the sons and daughters from the two formerly-alienated kingdoms after they had returned to Jerusalem and the promised land following their captivity.

Ephraim, the formerly “unclean” animals of the Northern kingdom, would no longer envy Judah, the comparatively “clean” animals of the Southern kingdom.  And Judah would no longer vex Ephraim (Is. 11:13).

As a result of their restored unity, together they would spread out toward the Philistine’s country to the west of Jerusalem, and they would also spoil the children of the East, meaning Edom and Moab’s territory, as well as the Ammonites yielding obedience to them.

Their united recovery as a restored nation in the post-exilic return, when God would gather the remnant of His people together for “a*SECOND* TIME” (Is. 11:11), would be just like it was when God had gathered them together the FIRST TIME.  And when was that FIRST time God had gathered his people together?  Isaiah 11:16 tells us.  “...like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.”  So, the FIRST gathering was in the Egyptian Exodus, and the SECOND gathering was in the exodus authorized by the Persian kings (most notably Cyrus, called “God’s servant”).

There are too many who apply this gathering together the remnant of His people a “SECOND TIME” to the 1948 creation of a nation of Israel in modern times.  But that is a total corruption of the timing of this Isaiah 11 prophecy, and totally ignores the work of God “reviving His work in the midst of the years” (Hab. 3:2) by the decrees of the Persian kings.

There was genuine revival among the people in those days under Haggai, Ezra, Nehemiah, Zerubbabel, Zechariah, and Joshua the high priest.  The earth (land of Israel) truly was “full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea” (Is.11:9) at that time. 

We have evidence of this wide-spread advance of the knowledge of the Lord in those days, found in Ezra 7:10 &26-26.  Ezra, that “ready scribe in the law of Moses”, had already “prepared his heart to seek the law of the Lord, and to do it, and TO TEACH IN ISRAEL statutes and judgments.”

Artaxerxes was in total agreement with this plan, saying in his decree, “And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thy hand, set magistrates and judges, which may judge ALL THE PEOPLE THAT ARE BEYOND THE RIVER, all such as know the laws of thy God; and teach ye them that know them not.  And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be to death, or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment.” 

There is evidence that this wide-spread instruction was carried out, by the example we are given during the Feast of Tabernacles in Nehemiah 8:8, when the people were gathered together “as one man”.  That occasion was when Ezra and the Levites “read in the book of the law distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused the people to understand the reading.”  A fulfillment of Isaiah 11:9, when the earth (land of Israel) would be full of the knowledge of the Lord.

And as I have already pointed out, though this Isaiah 11 prophecy was originally fulfilled for the first time in the years of the post-exilic return, it is ULTIMATELY fulfilled in the unity of the former Jew and Gentile groups as the unified “One New Man” of the New Covenant.  Otherwise known as the “ONE FOLD and ONE SHEPHERD” that Christ called it in John 10:16.  “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.”

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Re: The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« Reply #4 on: Tue Jan 14, 2020 - 12:21:06 »



Offline robycop3

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Re: The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« Reply #5 on: Wed Jan 15, 2020 - 01:07:05 »
  The whole pret mess is false.
  The Scriptures are LITERAL, as are most of Isaiah's other prophecies.
  Bell, Preston, gentry, etc. are all quax. They cannot prove a thing they say in favor of preterism. History and reality prove them false.
  How anyone with even a small amount of history knowledge can believe this tripe is beyond me !

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« Reply #6 on: Wed Feb 05, 2020 - 12:29:57 »
We remember the hatred between the divided kingdom in the days of Rehoboam, Solomon’s son.  The Northern kingdom (Ephraim) - the so-called “wolf” - became totally alienated from the Southern kingdom of Judah - the so-called “lamb”.  The antagonism between these kingdoms was so intense that they were prepared to go to war with each other initially.  The Northern kingdom never had a single good king in its entire history; Judah (the comparatively “clean” kingdom represented by the lamb) considered that Northern kingdom (represented by the wolf) to be as “unclean” as the Gentile nations.
The wolf is usually a symbol for Egypt in Hebrew apocryphons.  It would be an odd departure from the norm for it to be used of the northern kingdom.  Not completely infeasible, since they were mixed with the Canaanites (the dog usually typifies Canaanites, but that is similar to the wolf).

And as I have already pointed out, though this Isaiah 11 prophecy was originally fulfilled for the first time in the years of the post-exilic return, it is ULTIMATELY fulfilled in the unity of the former Jew and Gentile groups as the unified “One New Man” of the New Covenant.  Otherwise known as the “ONE FOLD and ONE SHEPHERD” that Christ called it in John 10:16.  “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.”
I'm a little confused by this.  If the northern & southern kingdoms were re-united in the times of Ezra, why did Jesus still need to call them?

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Re: The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« Reply #7 on: Wed Feb 05, 2020 - 20:10:13 »
Hi Jarrod,

If the wolf truly has been used to represent Egypt in various apocryphons, it’s not such an “odd departure from the norm” for Egypt to be used as a pejorative for apostate Israel.  The book of Revelation does this very thing, as I’m sure you remember.  Rev. 11:8 said that the city of Jerusalem where the Lord was crucified “spiritually is called Sodom and EGYPT”.  No insult could be worse than for Israel to be similarly compared to its ancient oppressor.  So for the Northern kingdom of a divided Israel to be compared to the wolf as an “unclean” animal, or to Egypt - either one would be an apt description of the corrupted Northern kingdom.

And sorry if I wasn’t clear on Christ calling the “other sheep” to join the “one fold and one shepherd”.  These “other sheep” Christ was speaking of were those coming from the formerly-alienated pagan Gentile nations, who would be included as believers in the “One New Man” body of Christ under the New Covenant.

The “one fold” was to become the unified family of the children of God, made to be “all of one” in the fellowship of Christ.  There have actually been Christ’s “sheep” present in every nation and family from creation onward, in other “folds” which Christ hinted at in John 10:16, but during Christ’s earthly ministry, He said that He was sent only to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel”.  He was the “minister of the circumcision” as Paul titled Him in Rom. 15:8. 

The transition point when the concentration of evangelistic effort would finally switch over from the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” to the comparatively “unclean” pagan Gentile nations was to come at the end of Daniel’s 70th week in AD 37.  Once that final 70th “week” of 7 years “confirming the (new) covenant with many” of Daniel’s people had ended in AD 37, the Apostle Paul would be the “herald” at the beginning of this new evangelistic focus on the Gentiles, as he told Timothy and the Romans (I Tim. 1:15-26, 2:7, and Rom. 15:16).

These Gentiles who would hearken to the call of Christ’s voice through the Apostle Paul’s gospel ministry are the ones Christ was speaking of in John 10:16.  Though they had not originally been grouped in the “fold” of faithful “sheep” of ethnic Israelite origin before Christ’s crucifixion, yet they were still considered to be Christ’s “sheep” nonetheless.  As such, they were destined to be part of the SINGLE fold that no longer had any ethnic distinctions at all between the members of the “one flock” after Christ had  “broken down the middle wall of partition” between them.  What God had cleansed could no longer be considered to be common or unclean, as Peter’s vision of the sheet in Acts 10:9-16 clearly showed.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« Reply #8 on: Wed Feb 05, 2020 - 21:49:54 »
Hi Jarrod,

If the wolf truly has been used to represent Egypt in various apocryphons, it’s not such an “odd departure from the norm” for Egypt to be used as a pejorative for apostate Israel.  The book of Revelation does this very thing, as I’m sure you remember.  Rev. 11:8 said that the city of Jerusalem where the Lord was crucified “spiritually is called Sodom and EGYPT”.  No insult could be worse than for Israel to be similarly compared to its ancient oppressor.  So for the Northern kingdom of a divided Israel to be compared to the wolf as an “unclean” animal, or to Egypt - either one would be an apt description of the corrupted Northern kingdom.

And sorry if I wasn’t clear on Christ calling the “other sheep” to join the “one fold and one shepherd”.  These “other sheep” Christ was speaking of were those coming from the formerly-alienated pagan Gentile nations, who would be included as believers in the “One New Man” body of Christ under the New Covenant.

The “one fold” was to become the unified family of the children of God, made to be “all of one” in the fellowship of Christ.  There have actually been Christ’s “sheep” present in every nation and family from creation onward, in other “folds” which Christ hinted at in John 10:16, but during Christ’s earthly ministry, He said that He was sent only to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel”.  He was the “minister of the circumcision” as Paul titled Him in Rom. 15:8. 

The transition point when the concentration of evangelistic effort would finally switch over from the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” to the comparatively “unclean” pagan Gentile nations was to come at the end of Daniel’s 70th week in AD 37.  Once that final 70th “week” of 7 years “confirming the (new) covenant with many” of Daniel’s people had ended in AD 37, the Apostle Paul would be the “herald” at the beginning of this new evangelistic focus on the Gentiles, as he told Timothy and the Romans (I Tim. 1:15-26, 2:7, and Rom. 15:16).

These Gentiles who would hearken to the call of Christ’s voice through the Apostle Paul’s gospel ministry are the ones Christ was speaking of in John 10:16.  Though they had not originally been grouped in the “fold” of faithful “sheep” of ethnic Israelite origin before Christ’s crucifixion, yet they were still considered to be Christ’s “sheep” nonetheless.  As such, they were destined to be part of the SINGLE fold that no longer had any ethnic distinctions at all between the members of the “one flock” after Christ had  “broken down the middle wall of partition” between them.  What God had cleansed could no longer be considered to be common or unclean, as Peter’s vision of the sheet in Acts 10:9-16 clearly showed.
This is very different from what I believe.

I believe that the core purpose of Jesus ministry was the resuscitation and re-establishment of the Northern kingdom - the House of Israel.

I think we agree that the southern kingdom (Judah/Benjamin/Simeon/Levi) went into exile/captivity, and was returned from that captivity during the time of Ezra.  The northern kingdom did NOT go into exile.  It was simply destroyed.  The prophets call her "dry bones" and "not a people," before prophesying that she would be restored to life, and return to a state of existence.

Then comes Jesus, and His ministry centers on Galilee, the Decapolis, Perea, and Transjordan - all the parts of the former House of Israel.  His ministry to the Jews is virtually non-existent - he only travels to Judah for the feasts, and when He goes, he goes out of his way to conceal His travels there, and even stays at a location that is outside of Jerusalem proper (Bethany).  And, as you already pointed out, we have Him proclaiming that He was sent to "none but the lost sheep of the House of Israel."  Were the Jews lost sheep?  No, they were the sheep already in the fold, and the lost sheep are "other sheep, not of this fold."

That may not be so different from saying He was going to the Gentile nations there.  The baptismal formula Jesus was using is very similar to that used by the other groups at that time for the conversion of gentiles to become Jewish.  Except, He wasn't making them Jews.  He was baptizing them into citizenship in a newly re-formed state of Israel.  It's no surprise Jesus chose 12 apostles - they were meant to be heads over the re-established tribes.

And that leads us to what I believe was the biggest point of contention between Jesus (and His predecessor John) and the Jews.  They were baptizing Jews.  Which is to say, they were taking their citizenship OUT of Judah.  The Pharisees traveled all the way out to the border of their country to ask John WHO ARE YOU BAPTIZING TO? and the first thing John did was to insult the genealogy they were so proud of (generation of vipers!) and tell them that God could make children for Abraham out of the stones.

Jarrod

Offline robycop3

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Re: The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« Reply #9 on: Thu Feb 06, 2020 - 01:11:40 »
  I agree as well that this is largely about the other 10 tribes of Israel.

  In the famous "dry bones" vision/prophecy God gave Ezekiel, God called the bones "the WHOLE House of Israel", which means all 12 tribes. And several later prophecies say that God will make Israel and Judah one nation again.

  Now, while of all Israel, only the Jews know their true national identity, the other tribes still exist, and GOD knows who they are. Sure, most Jews still reject Jesus as Messiah, but he said He's gonna open their eyes.  But being a Jew does NOT mean automatic salvation. Each individual Jew must come to Jesus, same as we gentiles must, in order to be saved.

   While I believe many Israelis of the "lost" tribes dwell among the past & present members of the British Empire, I do NOT believe the "British Israelite" stuff of the quack Herbie Armstrong. But we shall see, before too long, who they are.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« Reply #10 on: Thu Feb 06, 2020 - 15:40:03 »
Hi Jarrod,

It appears that you and robycop3 are both disregarding the importance of the unified nation of Israel and Judah in the post-exilic return after the 70 years of exile.  You remember that Cyrus sent out a directive to his entire kingdom, summoning whoever was left of both Israel and Judah, and urging them to return to their homeland. 

The valley of dry bones prophecy in Ezekiel 37, as robycop3 has said above, was for the WHOLE house of Israel to be resurrected to life again as a unified nation of Israel and Judah combined (Ez. 37:22).  Robycop3’s  position erroneously places the fulfillment of this revival of the whole nation into modern times. I believe you, Jarrod, are timing the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37’s revived nation to have taken place during Christ’s earthly ministry to Galilee, the Decapolis, Perea, and the Transjordan, correct?

Both of these views are off the mark.  Instead, the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37’s revived, resurrected WHOLE house of Israel was announced as already taking place in the prophet Ezra’s weeping prayer of confession to God in Ezra 9:8-9  (in the year 467 BC).  “And NOW for a little space grace hath been shewed from the Lord our God, to leave us a remnant to escape, and to give us a nail in his holy place, that our God may lighten our eyes, and give us a little REVIVING in our bondage.  For we were bondmen; yet our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, TO GIVE US A REVIVING, to set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to give us a wall in Judah and Jerusalem.”  This was a revival and a resurrection of the whole house of Israel coming to pass after the nation and Jerusalem’s first death in 586 BC.  (Whose “second death” would eventually take place in AD 70.)  Ezekiel 37’s “two sticks” of a divided kingdom of Israel and Judah became as “one stick” of a single nation again in the days of the post-exilic return. 

This revival of the ethnic nation of Israel was absolutely necessary at that time in order for Christ to come from the tribe of Judah as prophesied.  The 12 tribes served their intended, prophesied purpose, and were eventually eradicated by God in the “great and dreadful day of the Lord” in AD 70 which burned up Israel’s genealogical records, leaving them neither ancestral “root” nor “branch” of ethnic progeny in God’s eyes (Mal. 4:1,5).  Any former tribal distinctions or Gentile alienation were erased in the new reality of the “One New Man” of the New Covenant.  Peter’s vision of the formerly-unclean Gentile “beasts” made clean and acceptable in God’s eyes was an anti-type copy of Isaiah 11’s metaphoric illustration of unclean predatory beasts dwelling safely with the clean sacrificial beasts.

As for the revival of the unified nation of Israel pictured in the Isaiah 11 beasts dwelling safely together, this was also a fulfillment prophesied earlier in Habakkuk 3:2.   God intended to “REVIVE HIS WORK IN THE MIDST OF THE YEARS” during the post-exilic return of a unified nation of Israel and Judah combined.  The Ezra 9:8-9 prayer (made in the year 467 BC) praising God for reviving the dead nation of Israel was literally made in the midst of the total years of fallen mankind’s history, and also in the midst of the 4th millennium of Rev. 20 (lasting from 967/968 BC until AD 33).

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« Reply #11 on: Fri Feb 07, 2020 - 14:03:44 »
Hi Jarrod,
Hi  ::smile::

You remember that Cyrus sent out a directive to his entire kingdom, summoning whoever was left of both Israel and Judah, and urging them to return to their homeland.
I know the event, but that isn't quite how it happened.  You will see that Israel is absent if you look at the event in Ezra 1:

Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The LORD his God be with him, and let him go up.

Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.


The text is quite specific, isn't it?  The northern kingdom is not there.  Judah and Benjamin and Levi are explicitly the southern kingdom.

History also documents the destruction of Israel, from Assyria's perspective.  Sargon II commemorated his destruction of Samaria on a (still extant) stele, stating that he destroyed the city and the countryside, and took captive exactly 27,299 inhabitants. 

Allow me to comment on the difference between Babylonian and Assyrian deportation practices.  The Babylonians deported the nobility of those they conquered and relocated them TO Babylon, which caused Babylon to absorb the best parts of the surrounding cultures.  They largely left behind the commoners, under the charge of a vassal king they imported.  This is what happened to Judah.  Babylonian captivity was about enriching Babylon, in culture as well as gold.

The Assyrians did nearly the opposite, slaughtering the leadership, and taking the commoners with them.  These they forced to be laborers or soldiers on the front-lines of their armies.  A favorite Assyrian tactic was to use those captured to build ramparts against the cities they attacked, leaving the cities the choice of destroying their own countrymen or allowing the city to fall to siege.  Most Assyrian captives did not survive.  The Assyrians built pyramids out of the skulls of their "captives."  Assyrian captivity was about the wholesale destruction of non-compliant cultures. They made an example of them.

Israel did not return from captivity, because Israel was not IN captivity.  They were simply destroyed by Assyria, which also agrees with the Biblical text referring to them as "dry bones" and "not a people."  The remnant was Judah.  Israel had no remnant.

The valley of dry bones prophecy in Ezekiel 37, as robycop3 has said above, was for the WHOLE house of Israel to be resurrected to life again as a unified nation of Israel and Judah combined (Ez. 37:22).
I mostly agree.  It is about the resurrection of non-existent Israel, the return of the captivity of Judah, and their re-unification.

Robycop3’s  position erroneously places the fulfillment of this revival of the whole nation into modern times.
We both see the problems with that, I think.

I believe you, Jarrod, are timing the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37’s revived nation to have taken place during Christ’s earthly ministry to Galilee, the Decapolis, Perea, and the Transjordan, correct?
Correct.

The fulfillment of Ezekiel 37’s revived, resurrected WHOLE house of Israel was announced as already taking place in the prophet Ezra’s weeping prayer of confession to God in Ezra 9:8-9  (in the year 467 BC).  “And NOW for a little space grace hath been shewed from the Lord our God, to leave us a remnant to escape, and to give us a nail in his holy place, that our God may lighten our eyes, and give us a little REVIVING in our bondage.  For we were bondmen; yet our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, TO GIVE US A REVIVING, to set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to give us a wall in Judah and Jerusalem.”  This was a revival and a resurrection of the whole house of Israel coming to pass after the nation and Jerusalem’s first death in 586 BC.  (Whose “second death” would eventually take place in AD 70.)  Ezekiel 37’s “two sticks” of a divided kingdom of Israel and Judah became as “one stick” of a single nation again in the days of the post-exilic return.
All one has to do is read the chapters to see that it was only Judah who returned:

And they made proclamation throughout Judah and Jerusalem unto all the children of the captivity, that they should gather themselves together unto Jerusalem;
And that whosoever would not come within three days, according to the counsel of the princes and the elders, all his substance should be forfeited, and himself separated from the congregation of those that had been carried away.  Then all the men of Judah and Benjamin gathered themselves together unto Jerusalem within three days. It was the ninth month, on the twentieth day of the month; and all the people sat in the street of the house of God, trembling because of this matter, and for the great rain.  (Ezra 10)


By these verses, everyone was excluded who did not show up, and the only ones who showed up were Judah and Benjamin.

This revival of the ethnic nation of Israel was absolutely necessary at that time in order for Christ to come from the tribe of Judah as prophesied.
Why would the revival of the northern kingdom be necessary for the Lord to come from the southern kingdom?  I would counter that it was necessary for the Messiah to come, before Israel could be revived.  That is part and parcel of the purpose of the foretold Messiah - to restore Israel to life.

The 12 tribes served their intended, prophesied purpose, and were eventually eradicated by God in the “great and dreadful day of the Lord” in AD 70 which burned up Israel’s genealogical records, leaving them neither ancestral “root” nor “branch” of ethnic progeny in God’s eyes (Mal. 4:1,5).  Any former tribal distinctions or Gentile alienation were erased in the new reality of the “One New Man” of the New Covenant.  Peter’s vision of the formerly-unclean Gentile “beasts” made clean and acceptable in God’s eyes was an anti-type copy of Isaiah 11’s metaphoric illustration of unclean predatory beasts dwelling safely with the clean sacrificial beasts.
You do realize that their genealogies were a sham, don't you?  Neither Israel nor Judah was ever... not ever ever ever... of any kind of pure lineage.  They were a mixed people coming out of Egypt, and were "baptized in the sea and the cloud" into the tribes.  Mixture with the people in the land is a Biblical problem from the beginning of Exodus, and still a problem in Ezra!  David was part Moabite.  Solomon took more foreign wives than anyone, and had a palace that was not even in Israel!  Paul specifically instructs us to ignore the genealogies. 

An important facet of Jesus doctrine (which is largely ignored now), is how we are meant to reckon heredity and inheritance.  He says to do it based on behavior.  Abraham's children are those who act like Abraham.  God has always reckoned it as such.

Jarrod

Offline robycop3

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Re: The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« Reply #12 on: Sat Feb 08, 2020 - 10:48:41 »
Hi Jarrod,

It appears that you and robycop3 are both disregarding the importance of the unified nation of Israel and Judah in the post-exilic return after the 70 years of exile.  You remember that Cyrus sent out a directive to his entire kingdom, summoning whoever was left of both Israel and Judah, and urging them to return to their homeland. 

The valley of dry bones prophecy in Ezekiel 37, as robycop3 has said above, was for the WHOLE house of Israel to be resurrected to life again as a unified nation of Israel and Judah combined (Ez. 37:22).  Robycop3’s  position erroneously places the fulfillment of this revival of the whole nation into modern times. I believe you, Jarrod, are timing the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37’s revived nation to have taken place during Christ’s earthly ministry to Galilee, the Decapolis, Perea, and the Transjordan, correct?

Both of these views are off the mark.  Instead, the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37’s revived, resurrected WHOLE house of Israel was announced as already taking place in the prophet Ezra’s weeping prayer of confession to God in Ezra 9:8-9  (in the year 467 BC).  “And NOW for a little space grace hath been shewed from the Lord our God, to leave us a remnant to escape, and to give us a nail in his holy place, that our God may lighten our eyes, and give us a little REVIVING in our bondage.  For we were bondmen; yet our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, TO GIVE US A REVIVING, to set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to give us a wall in Judah and Jerusalem.”  This was a revival and a resurrection of the whole house of Israel coming to pass after the nation and Jerusalem’s first death in 586 BC.  (Whose “second death” would eventually take place in AD 70.)  Ezekiel 37’s “two sticks” of a divided kingdom of Israel and Judah became as “one stick” of a single nation again in the days of the post-exilic return. 

   Actually, this isn't supported by history. By the time Assyria fell, many of the Israelis of the "10 tribes" had forgotten their true national iodentity & had become scattered away from the areas Assyria had controlled. So, not too many of them returned to their land upon Cyrus' call.

  Obviously, some had, as Anna, who lived in the temple & saw the baby Jesus, was of the tribe of Asher. But she was one of the few known Israelis who wasn't a Jew. So, this gathering is still future, especially as the Jews are the only clearly-known Israelis now.

Quote
This revival of the ethnic nation of Israel was absolutely necessary at that time in order for Christ to come from the tribe of Judah as prophesied.  The 12 tribes served their intended, prophesied purpose, and were eventually eradicated by God in the “great and dreadful day of the Lord” in AD 70 which burned up Israel’s genealogical records, leaving them neither ancestral “root” nor “branch” of ethnic progeny in God’s eyes (Mal. 4:1,5).  Any former tribal distinctions or Gentile alienation were erased in the new reality of the “One New Man” of the New Covenant.  Peter’s vision of the formerly-unclean Gentile “beasts” made clean and acceptable in God’s eyes was an anti-type copy of Isaiah 11’s metaphoric illustration of unclean predatory beasts dwelling safely with the clean sacrificial beasts.

  Actually, the events of AD70 were part of the "days of vengeance" Jesus pronounced against that generation of Jews. That was all it was, & nothint else.

Quote
As for the revival of the unified nation of Israel pictured in the Isaiah 11 beasts dwelling safely together, this was also a fulfillment prophesied earlier in Habakkuk 3:2.   God intended to “REVIVE HIS WORK IN THE MIDST OF THE YEARS” during the post-exilic return of a unified nation of Israel and Judah combined.  The Ezra 9:8-9 prayer (made in the year 467 BC) praising God for reviving the dead nation of Israel was literally made in the midst of the total years of fallen mankind’s history, and also in the midst of the 4th millennium of Rev. 20 (lasting from 967/968 BC until AD 33).

  Again, that unification hasn't yet happened. The nation that was "revived" was Judah, which was later dispersed again for its murder of Jesus & continued rejection of Him as Messiah.

  How can you not see the prophetic significance of Judah's 2nd revival as the modern sovereign nation of Israel, with Jerusalem now its capital ? This is the beginning of the complete revival of the whole jewish nation, as the majority of the world's Jews don't now live in Israel. The rest of Israel will follow in time. God acts at HIS own speed, not ours !

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Re: The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« Reply #13 on: Sat Feb 08, 2020 - 11:26:03 »
 author=Wycliffes_Shillelagh link=topic=89691.msg1055155930#msg1055155930 date=1581105824]

Quote
By these verses, everyone was excluded who did not show up, and the only ones who showed up were Judah and Benjamin.
Why would the revival of the northern kingdom be necessary for the Lord to come from the southern kingdom?  I would counter that it was necessary for the Messiah to come, before Israel could be revived.  That is part and parcel of the purpose of the foretold Messiah - to restore Israel to life.
You do realize that their genealogies were a sham, don't you?  Neither Israel nor Judah was ever... not ever ever ever... of any kind of pure lineage.  They were a mixed people coming out of Egypt, and were "baptized in the sea and the cloud" into the tribes.  Mixture with the people in the land is a Biblical problem from the beginning of Exodus, and still a problem in Ezra!  David was part Moabite.  Solomon took more foreign wives than anyone, and had a palace that was not even in Israel!  Paul specifically instructs us to ignore the genealogies. 

An important facet of Jesus doctrine (which is largely ignored now), is how we are meant to reckon heredity and inheritance.  He says to do it based on behavior.  Abraham's children are those who act like Abraham.  God has always reckoned it as such.

Jarrod

Absolutely Jarrod,

As it is written from the very beginning "If you do well, shall you not be accepted", as was Abraham. DNA has nothing to do with Salvation.

Isn't that the entire message from the examples God had written for our admonition? All that is left is to learn what God's Definition of "doing well" is, and then doing it.

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


Very good post Jarrod, thank you for it.






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Re: The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« Reply #14 on: Sat Feb 08, 2020 - 11:51:22 »
  I agree that there's not one "people" on earth whose ancestry isn't mixed at least in part with other "peoples". And that includes the Jews. However, GOD knows who has enough Israeli ancestry for Him to reckon them as Israelis.

  Sure, the "10 tribes" are mixed with some Assyrians & whatever other people they lived among after being marched from their own land, but GOD has still made prophecies concerning them. HE knows whom He is regarding as Israelis.

  Obviously, today's Jews have mixed ancestry, but their main bloodline is Jewish. They are subject to several diseases such as Tay-Sachs Disease, rarely seen in non-Jews. Given their history, they're certainly Jews in God's sight.

  Now, of course, while God still has plans for Judah & Israel yet to be completed, the individual Jew, same as any individual gentile, must come to Jesus in repentance, faith, belief & submission in order to be saved. There's but ONE way of salvation for all people.

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Re: The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« Reply #15 on: Sat Feb 08, 2020 - 19:15:36 »
Okay, this is good...apparently we are all in agreement that racial bloodlines have no benefit for salvation.  That’s pretty self-explanatory in scripture.  So I hesitate to currently make too much of an issue of the whole tribe list issue, since in Paul’s days, he really was cautioning against the “endless genealogies” mindset that circulated among the Israelite believers back then.   

By that point in time, after Christ’s sacrifice and resurrection, He had rendered the whole identity of the ethnic tribes as a moot point.  “...There is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female, for ye are all one in Christ...”.

But that is a separate matter from the post exilic return period when members of all the tribes would be regathered to the land of Israel and the city of Jerusalem.

Jarrod, there are several texts that confirm that there really were members of all the Northern kingdom’s tribes that did return, along with the returning exiles of Judah’s captivity.  This includes the verses you gave of Cyrus’ decree in Ezra 1:2, written to every nation throughout his whole kingdom, asking them “...Who is there among you of *ALL* His people?  (of the Northern kingdom as well as the southern kingdom included)  His God go with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem...”.

Assyria may have done a knock-out punch on the Northern kingdom, slaying mountains of citizens and enslaving a great number, but they did not kill every tribal member down to the last man.  You have said that the Northern kingdom of Israel had no remnant left to return, but these following texts do not agree with that.

Ezra 10:25 -  This chapter gives the list of men who had taken foreign wives before they had returned to the land of their fathers.   Besides the men of the tribe of Levi with its priests, singers and porters who had married foreign wives, “...Moreover OF ISRAEL...” there were a large group of men who had also sinned in this matter.  And it names them all personally.

Ezekiel 37:15-22 - This follows directly after the revived-dry-bones prophecy for the “WHOLE house of Israel”.  God told Ezekiel to write a name on two separate sticks; one of them “For JUDAH (southern kingdom), and for the children of Israel his companions”.  The other stick was to have written on it, “For Joseph, the stick of EPHRAIM (Northern kingdom), and for all the house of Israel his companions.” 

These two sticks were to be joined and become one stick in Ezekiel’s hand.  Showing that God intended “they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.”  God would not have used this illustration if there were not at least some physical descendants left of all the 12 tribes still existing that would be united in the post-exilic return.

Ezekiel 48:1-29 - This context gives a complete list of all 12 tribes and the planned division of the land between them.  We know it is the time of the post-exilic return, because Ez. 48:11 specifically mentions the high priesthood family of Zadok - the only one of the Levite families allowed the high priesthood after the post-exilic return. 

Also, this Ezekiel 48 passage cannot possibly refer to any division of the land of Israel to the 12 tribes AFTER Christ’s high priesthood.  That’s because Christ’s high priesthood after the order of Melchizedek superseded any other coming from the Levite tribe.  It would be a change from the Zadok-approved high priesthood accompanied by a change in the law over to the New Covenant in Christ’s blood.

Amos 9:8-9 - Amos was charged to prophesy prior to the Assyrians taking down the Northern kingdom of Israel.  “Behold the eyes of the Lord are upon the sinful kingdom (the northern kingdom of Israel) and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving I will not UTTERLY destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord.  For lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all the nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.” 

The destruction of the northern kingdom would not be a complete one.  God had a very specific remnant of this “sinful kingdom” of Israel that would be reserved among all the nations where they would be scattered after the Assyrians had conquered them.  Down to the last single ”grain”, God had selected a particular number to return.

Ezekiel 16:53-55 - In this context, God was excoriating Jerusalem for its idolatrous harlotry, but with promises to eventually restore Jerusalem after its ashamed repentance.   Along with Jerusalem’s daughters, Jerusalem’s older sister Samaria and her daughters on the left hand (the Northern kingdom) and her younger sister Sodom and her daughters on the right hand (a pejorative title of the southern kingdom, as in Is. 1:1 and 10) would ALL have a remnant return from captivity.

“When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, AND  the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them.  When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, AND Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.”. This included a promise of a post-exilic return for Jerusalem, with Samaria representing the northern kingdom tribes, and Sodom representing the southern kingdom tribes.

Jarrod, you have also said that the tribes were always a sham, called a “mixed people”,  even from the Egyptian exodus.  Not exactly.  A “mixed multitude” of strangers went out of Egypt *WITH* the Israelite tribes, and *AMONG* them (Ex. 12:38, and Num. 11:4).  If these strangers followed Israel’s laws and religious observances, they were to share the same inheritance of the tribes as if they were born as one of them.  There was to be one law that applied to them all (Num. 15:14-16), even if they were “strangers” that sojourned among them.  This was an early precursor to the later concept of the “One New Man” reality of the New Covenant, having former Jew and former Gentile categories combined as one.

Jarrod, you asked why it was so particularly important that the northern kingdom be revived in the post-exilic return as well as the southern kingdom, since Christ only had to come from Judah of the southern kingdom.  One big reason was that “Gog” (an Israelite who would come out of his place in the “NORTH PARTS” of Israel - i.e. Galilee), was prophesied about “in old time”, even before Israel’s tribes entered the land of Canaan.   (Think Balaam’s prophecy.)   Ezekiel foretold of this “chief prince” called “Gog” who would come against his own people Israel in the “latter days” and ”at the END OF YEARS” in a “brother against brother” battle.  The AD 70 era, in other words, at the “consummation of the ages” (Heb. 9:26).

“Gog” was going to be the Zealot leader coming from Galilee in the NORTH quarters of Israel who was called Simon bar Giora - literally, “Simon son of the proselyte”.   Zealotry was a certain element of Israel’s history ever since Maccabean times, but was especially building in intensity around the time Christ was born.  God intended to use this internal seditious factor in Israel as a catalyst to bring the nation down during God’s “days of vengeance” against those who rejected His Son. 

If the tribes of the Northern kingdom had not been restored, the prophecy about the Israelite “Gog” coming from out of his place in the north parts of Israel would not have been fulfilled, with his army being composed of combatants coming out of all those various nations mentioned in Ezekiel 38:1-6.

Bottom line - the seed of ethnic Israel’s destruction of the tribes was sown in the very bowels of the post-exilic return of both northern and southern kingdoms.


Offline robycop3

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Re: The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« Reply #16 on: Mon Feb 10, 2020 - 00:58:43 »
  Well, ACTUALLY, the Gog-Magog attack will be a coalition of Moslem nations led by Russia, whom they'll pay to arm & lead them.

  And nowhere does God say He will make any tribe of Israel extinct.

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Re: The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« Reply #17 on: Mon Feb 10, 2020 - 03:22:46 »
The extinction of Israel’s tribes was foretold in Malachi 4:1.  They would be burned up, “both root and branch”.  Just as in Amos 2:9, when the destruction of the Amorite people was predicted by God destroying “his fruits from above and his roots from beneath”.

This “root and branch” imagery is adopted by Jesus in Revelation 22:16 when He calls Himself “the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”  Once Christ became the ultimate fulfillment of the “root and branch” imagery of the tribes, the purpose for the tribes’ continued existence had also been fulfilled.  Any DNA today for their physical descendants is an immaterial consideration, according to Paul’s teaching about the “New Creature” of the “One NEW MAN” in Christ, in which Jew and Gentile segregation has no place at all.  You should quit trying to segregate God’s people, robycop3.  It’s a vain exercise.

And “Gog” is just another name for Israel.  You might try reading Balaam’s prophecy from “old time” as Ezekiel called it.  Look at Numbers 24:5-9 in the LXX.  “...the KINGDOM OF GOG shall be exalted...God led him (Gog, that is) out of Egypt...they that bless thee are blessed, and they that curse thee are cursed.”

“Gog” (the kingdom of Israel) would be destroyed when “every man’s sword shall be against his brother” in Ezekiel 38:21.  The battle of Gog was going to be CIVIL WAR among the children of Israel.

When Gog was to come out of “his place in the NORTH PARTS”, or the “NORTH QUARTERS, this was the NORTH PARTS OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL.  The North quadrant of Israel is Galilee.   Galilee was the hot-bed which gave rise to most of the Zealot leaders, such as the insurgent “Judas of Galilee” of Acts 5:37.

When Israel of the Exodus first occupied the promised land of Canaan, scripture says that they were “divided into corners” (Neh. 9:22) when the land of Canaan was divided up among the tribes. Judgment was predicted for these 4 corners of Israel in Ezekiel 7:2-3.  “Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God unto the LAND OF ISRAEL; An end, the end is come upon the FOUR CORNERS OF THE LAND.  Now is the end come upon thee, and I will send mine anger upon thee...”

These “four corners of the land” in Ezekiel 7:2-3 are the same “four quarters of the earth” in Revelation 20:8 that Gog was going to come against in a CIVIL WAR conflict.  Christ had once said that a “house divided against itself cannot stand”.  This is how Israel as a nation of tribes was destroyed finally in AD 70.  Zealot factions and the civil war they brought destroyed Israel from within.  The Romans came only to give the last death blow to a nation too weakened by civil strife to defend itself from an outside enemy.

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Re: The Wolf And The Lamb - Isaiah 11
« Reply #18 on: Mon Feb 10, 2020 - 12:07:58 »
To the O.P.,
The wolf and the lamb in Isaiah 11 is a metaphor about people.  The "ravenous wolves" are described as being peaceful with the lambs. This is a metaphor regarding God's enemies (wolves) and the sheepfold of believers. It is in the spiritual state Mt.Zion, God's holy mountain. It is a description of the "new heaven and earth"

Isa.66 offers a similar interpretation:

The sound of noise from the city!
A voice from the temple!
The voice of the Lord,
Who fully repays His enemies!

7
“Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.
8
Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.
9
Shall I bring to the time of birth, and not cause delivery?” says the Lord.
“Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb?” says your God.
10
“Rejoice with Jerusalem,
And be glad with her, all you who love her;
Rejoice for joy with her, all you who mourn for her;
11
That you may feed and be satisfied
With the consolation of her bosom,
That you may drink deeply and be delighted
With the abundance of her glory.”

12 For thus says the Lord:

“Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river,
And the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream.
Then you shall feed;
On her sides shall you be carried,
And be dandled on her knees.
13
As one whom his mother comforts,
So I will comfort you;
And you shall be comforted in Jerusalem.”
The Reign and Indignation of God

14
When you see this, your heart shall rejoice,
And your bones shall flourish like grass;
The hand of the Lord shall be known to His servants,
And His indignation to His enemies.
15
For behold, the Lord will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16
For by fire and by His sword
The Lord will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the Lord shall be many.

17
“Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves,
To go to the gardens
[a]After an idol in the midst,
Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse,
Shall be consumed together,” says the Lord.

18 “For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. 19 I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and [c]Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles. 20 Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the Lord out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says the Lord, “as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. 21 And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites,” says the Lord.

22
“For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23
And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

24
“And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”


And yes, this is describing the "end times" when God destroys the unbelievers of Israel and the temple.
« Last Edit: Mon Feb 10, 2020 - 12:12:31 by lea »