Author Topic: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye  (Read 4133 times)

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thethinker

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The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« on: March 17, 2012, 09:19:51 PM »
TO ALL,

Paul said that we are looking for the things that are "UNSEEN" becaue the things that are unseen are ETERNAL. He was speaking about our immortal state after our outer man perishes. Paul said that after our temporary body or "this tent" is dissolved  we will be clothed with our "house" that is "not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (2 Corinthians 4:16-5:5). The expression "not made with hands" means "not of this creation" (Hebrews 9:11). So the immortal body is INVISIBLE ("unseen") and it is "not of this creation."

About the Invisible body 19th century Preterist J. Stuart Russell said this:

Quote
Is a spiritual body one which can be seen, touched, handled? We cannot be certain that the eye can see the spiritual, or hand grasp the immaterial. On the contrary, the presumption and the probability are that they cannot. All this resurrection of the dead and the transmutation of the living take place in the region of the spiritual, into which earthly spectators and reporters do not enter, and could see nothing if they did. A miracle may be necessary to empower the 'unassisted eye' to see the the invisible. The prophet at Dothan saw the mountain full of 'chariots of fire and the horses of fire,' but the prophet's servant saw nothing until Elisha prayed, 'Lord, open his eyes, that he may see' (2 kings vi, 17). The first Christian martyr, full of the Holy Ghost, 'saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,' but none of the multitude that surrounded him beheld the vision (Acts vi, 56). Saul of Tarsus on the way to Damascus saw 'that Just One,' but his fellow travellers saw no man (Acts ix, 7).

It is not improbable that traditional and materialistic conceptions of the resurrection, opening graves and emerging bodies, may bias the imagination on this subject, and make us overlook the fact that our material organs can apprehend only material objects.

The Parousis, p. 210-211

Please note that Russell said that earthly spectators and reporters could not see the resurrection. This explains why there is no historical record of the resurrection of the many who were raised with Jesus when He was raised. If this event had been observable, then we would no doubt have a historical record of it which we do not. The reason why Jesus was visible to His disciples is because He had to appear in the same body inwhich He was crucified so He could verify to His disciples that He was the SAME JESUS who was risen from sheol. But the many who were resurrected with Him were NOT visible because they had their spiritual bodies immediately while Jesus did not assume His spiritual body until He ascended into heaven.

Paul CLEARLY said that our immortal body is INVISIBLE and that it is "not made with hands, that is, not of this creation."

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Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2012, 09:41:58 PM »
It never ceases to amaze me how many scriptures Preterists are willing to twist entirely out of their meaning and context to support their doctrines.  ::headscratch::

Matthew 17 (KJV)
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.


Give to those who hold to untruth
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Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2012, 09:44:37 PM »
Revelation 1:7 (KJV)
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

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Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2012, 09:48:07 PM »
John 20:11-17 (KJV)
11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.
14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

I mean, I could go into his appearances to his disciples post resurrection and on and on...

But some one who holds to a belief with this much scriptural proof against that believe has a real problem with blind faith.
Give to those who hold to untruth
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larry2

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2012, 10:07:06 PM »
Quote from: thethinker

Please note that Russell said that earthly spectators and reporters could not see the resurrection. This explains why there is no historical record of the resurrection of the many who were raised with Jesus when He was raised. If this event had been observable, then we would no doubt have a historical record of it which we do not.


You just get better and better. Russel said there's no historical record of a resurrection at Jesus' rising? What of those raised that appeared to many in Matthew 27:52?  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose. If they couldn't be seen, what was the point of appearing to them? Was Jesus in His eternal body when inviting Thomas to touch Him?

Do you think Elijah and Moses at the transfiguration were not seen by Peter? What of the 24 elders, the four living ones, the great multitude, and the 144,000 shown to John in Revelation? But of course, with Josephus' fable he was given spiritual eyes to see when none others did.

You make the statement that "Jesus did not assume His spiritual body until He ascended into heaven."

John 20:17  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. By the time He asked Thomas to touch Him, Jesus had appeared to His Father in heaven.

Have you considered "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen?

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2012, 10:07:06 PM »



Lehigh

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2012, 07:16:16 PM »
The spiritual realm is invisible. We can never "see" God receiving someone's spirit.  We are each individually raptured in this way when we die.

       R>>A>>P>>T>>U>>R>>E ::angel::

larry2

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2012, 08:14:16 PM »

The spiritual realm is invisible. We can never "see" God receiving someone's spirit.  We are each individually raptured in this way when we die.

       R>>A>>P>>T>>U>>R>>E
::angel::


Prove it. Was Jesus spiritual after His death? Revelation 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him. How will every eye see a spirit? of for that matter the cloud of witnesses? 

The Apostle John saw saints caught up in Revelation. Who are the alive to be caught up together with the dead in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.  . . the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Are those alive caught up turned into spirits?

Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2012, 08:41:56 PM »
I've often wondered this about the spirit realm.

I am not backing off what the Bible says (and I quoted) about seeing with our eyes the Lord Jesus who is a physical man in a resurrected / eternalized body and who is God the Word in his Spirit. And men and women have seen angels throughout the Bible...

What I wonder is if they are all invisible and at times were made visible or if they are simply invisible... to us... and in our resurrection (eternalized bodies) will we see the spirits (angels and more importantly God the father and God the Spirit as well as the resurrected Jesus...).

Colossians 1:15 (KJV)
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

I would read that {visible} image of the invisible God.

1 John 3:2 (KJV)
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Give to those who hold to untruth
Questions they cannot answer and
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raggthyme

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2012, 09:50:05 PM »

Revelation 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him. How will every eye see a spirit? of for that matter the cloud of witnesses?  


Jesus said He would come in the glory of His Father. He would come with clouds.. how do you know He didn't mean that He would come like His Father did, in clouds of judgment? And every eye (that is, they that pierced Him.. that wicked generation that crucified God's Son) would see Him vindicated when His judgment came, just as He said it would.

King David wrote this in the day that the LORD delivered him from the hand of Saul and his enemies...


Psa 18:   

Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.

There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness [was] under his feet.

And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him [were] dark waters [and] thick clouds of the skies.

At the brightness [that was] before him his thick clouds passed, hail [stones] and coals of fire.

The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail [stones] and coals of fire.

Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.






These things did not literally happen, the LORD did not literally descend in clouds. If you look at 2 Samuel, David is painting a poetic picture of God's judgment befalling the enemies of His chosen.

If Jesus was going to come in the glory of His Father, are you sure He wasn't referring to the same poetic imagery? God's judgment was soon to befall the enemies of His chosen.. His church. It makes sense to consider it.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 10:04:59 PM by raggthyme »

larry2

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2012, 10:09:48 PM »

how do you know 
are you sure
It makes sense.



Is this the normal stuck in the seventies theology?
Thus sayeth Josephus?

Prove what you're saying. I've read of a cloud of witnesses.

raggthyme

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2012, 10:32:55 PM »

how do you know  
are you sure
It makes sense.



Is this the normal stuck in the seventies theology?
Thus sayeth Josephus?

Prove what you're saying. I've read of a cloud of witnesses.


I don't know what the "normal stuck in the seventies theology" is larry, I said nothing of Josephus. I quoted Psalm 18 to show how David spoke of God coming down, in thick clouds and how that in 2 Samuel we read it refers to His judgment upon David's enemies. Isn't it possible that Jesus, when saying He'd come in clouds, in the glory of His Father, may have been referencing King David's poetic imagery???

Are you trying to be rude? I'm not...

larry2

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2012, 12:07:06 AM »

Are you trying to be rude? I'm not...


rofl  The polite Preterist huh?
Now I can add "Isn't it possible" to:

how do you know  
are you sure
It makes sense.
Isn't it possible


Preterists like to call anyone not believing them or Josephus "Futurists," so I'm coining a new term for them: "Stuck in the seventies." or maybe "Thus sayeth Josephus'ers"

What I'm asking is for you to prove what you're saying. Thanks.

raggthyme

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2012, 12:31:26 AM »

Are you trying to be rude? I'm not...


rofl  The polite Preterist huh?
Now I can add "Isn't it possible" to:

how do you know  
are you sure
It makes sense.
Isn't it possible


Preterists like to call anyone not believing them or Josephus "Futurists," so I'm coining a new term for them: "Stuck in the seventies." or maybe "Thus sayeth Josephus'ers"

What I'm asking is for you to prove what you're saying. Thanks.


The term futurist, at least when I use it, means exactly what it says.. those who believe the end times prophecies are yet future. I do not use this term in a derogatory way. You, however are coming across in a snide manner, just sayin'.

I think I'm in the same position as you are, since you've yet to prove that Jesus' coming is in literal clouds, or that the clouds Revelation 1 is referring to are in fact the "cloud of witnesses" Hebrews speaks of.

I mentioned Psalm 18 twice, does that mean nothing to you in this context? If not, why not?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 01:17:39 AM by raggthyme »

raggthyme

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2012, 01:41:47 AM »


Paul CLEARLY said that our immortal body is INVISIBLE and that it is "not made with hands, that is, not of this creation."



Agreed.

Paul must have believed the resurrection was something that couldn't be seen, and that it didn't involve "grave popping" (for lack of a better term.) Because if it was observable, those who were saying it was past already would have been easily refuted. Instead, their claim was deceptive enough to overthrow the faith of some and warrant a warning from Paul, which wouldn't have been the case if the saints were taught that the resurrection was about bodies coming out of their graves. If that's what they believed, it would have been obvious that it hadn't yet happened, and no one would have panicked at such a claim.

inthenow

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2012, 03:25:21 AM »

The spiritual realm is invisible. We can never "see" God receiving someone's spirit.  We are each individually raptured in this way when we die.

       R>>A>>P>>T>>U>>R>>E
::angel::


Prove it. Was Jesus spiritual after His death? Revelation 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him. How will every eye see a spirit? of for that matter the cloud of witnesses?  

The Apostle John saw saints caught up in Revelation. Who are the alive to be caught up together with the dead in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.  . . the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Are those alive caught up turned into spirits?

Heb 12:1  Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Their were many christians at this time, and many had died for their faith I think is what Paul is speaking off.

1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Clouds and air here are literal clouds and air - atmosphere.
Christ comes on clouds which is one of His means of transport:
Psa_104:3  Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Jesus brings the spirits of those who have died in Him to be united with their risen changed glorified redeemed body, then we who are alive in Christ are caught up to them in the clouds in the air.
There is no mention of witnesses in those verses, are you referring to those spirits that have died in Christ?

When raptured we will be turned into spirit beings with redeemed bodies, not turned into spirits, the dead in christ (spirits) are bought here to receive their risen changed immortal bodies. I believe.