Author Topic: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye  (Read 4170 times)

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larry2

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2012, 03:25:37 PM »

That is why I posted that link larry2. It is to disprove the physical body rapture!


I don't go to Preterist pastors, or their organized religion when I consider your "philosophy is pure fiction" as you phrase other's doctrines. Josephus said others would think of his vision as a fable, and he sure was right there.

Josephus' Account

"I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable."

"A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed."

"What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary."

I agree with you Josephus; I dismiss it as your imagination.

Lehigh

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2012, 04:35:35 PM »

That is why I posted that link larry2. It is to disprove the physical body rapture!


I don't go to Preterist pastors, or their organized religion when I consider your "philosophy is pure fiction" as you phrase other's doctrines. Josephus said others would think of his vision as a fable, and he sure was right there.

Josephus' Account

"I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable."

"A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed."

"What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary."

I agree with you Josephus; I dismiss it as your imagination.

Even as a Christian reading Josephus, a Jewish historian's writings of the event that Roman historian Tacitus confirmed, I understand exactly what he is saying. Any reasonable, unbiased person can acknowledge EXACTLY what Josephus was relaying to the world.
 
So, history records something that some futurists call fiction!?  ::crackup::

I learned to think for myself.  Not from modern day charlatans selling their brand of psychic predictions!

Did you read the link?. You see that "the living" are NOT caught up literally with the dead at the same time?

The Greek wording proves your RAPTURE of the living to be wrong!



« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 05:03:28 PM by Lehigh »

thethinker

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2012, 09:54:12 AM »

That is why I posted that link larry2. It is to disprove the physical body rapture!


I don't go to Preterist pastors, or their organized religion when I consider your "philosophy is pure fiction" as you phrase other's doctrines. Josephus said others would think of his vision as a fable, and he sure was right there.

Josephus' Account

"I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable."

"A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed."

"What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary."

I agree with you Josephus; I dismiss it as your imagination.

Even as a Christian reading Josephus, a Jewish historian's writings of the event that Roman historian Tacitus confirmed, I understand exactly what he is saying. Any reasonable, unbiased person can acknowledge EXACTLY what Josephus was relaying to the world.
 
So, history records something that some futurists call fiction!?  ::crackup::

I learned to think for myself.  Not from modern day charlatans selling their brand of psychic predictions!

Did you read the link?. You see that "the living" are NOT caught up literally with the dead at the same time?

The Greek wording proves your RAPTURE of the living to be wrong!





Manna brother!

thinker

thethinker

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2012, 10:24:01 AM »
Quote from: thethinker

Please note that Russell said that earthly spectators and reporters could not see the resurrection. This explains why there is no historical record of the resurrection of the many who were raised with Jesus when He was raised. If this event had been observable, then we would no doubt have a historical record of it which we do not.


You just get better and better. Russel said there's no historical record of a resurrection at Jesus' rising? What of those raised that appeared to many in Matthew 27:52?  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose. If they couldn't be seen, what was the point of appearing to them? Was Jesus in His eternal body when inviting Thomas to touch Him?

Do you think Elijah and Moses at the transfiguration were not seen by Peter? What of the 24 elders, the four living ones, the great multitude, and the 144,000 shown to John in Revelation? But of course, with Josephus' fable he was given spiritual eyes to see when none others did.

You make the statement that "Jesus did not assume His spiritual body until He ascended into heaven."

John 20:17  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. By the time He asked Thomas to touch Him, Jesus had appeared to His Father in heaven.

Have you considered "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen?


Larry,

Here is what Russell ACTUALLY said:
Quote
All this resurrection of the dead and the transmutation of the living take place in the region of the spiritual, into which earthly spectators and reporters do not enter, and could see nothing if they did.

Russell said that "ALL this resurrection of the dead and the transmutating of the living take place in the region of the spiritual, into which earthly spectators and reporters do not enter, and could not see if they did." Therefore, the reason we have no historical record of those saints who were resurrected with Jesus is because it was an invisible event and no man could report it. Don't you think we would have a historical record for something like that if it had been observable? Come on!

Jesus had to appear to His disciples in His mortal body so He could prove to them that He had been resurrected from sheol. He has His spiritual body now. Paul said that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." Paul said that the second man (Christ) became a "life giving SPIRIT." Paul said that Jesus is the "Invisible God."

The disciples saw Moses and Elijah because their eyes were "assisted" (Russell). When they looked again they saw no man. Does that mean that Moses and Elijah were not still with Jesus at the Mt?

Quote
But of course, with Josephus' fable he was given spiritual eyes to see when none others did.

You're misrepresenting the facts. Read the account of Josephus. He recorded what OTHERS told Him that THEY saw. You misrepresent what Josephus said and then say it is "fable." Did not Jesus appear to Paul on the road to Damacsus but the other two with him did NOT see Jesus? Paul only saw Him and felt that it qualified him to be in the class of the eyewitnesses of Christ's resurrection (1 Cor. 15).

Was Luke telling us a "fable" when he said that Paul only saw Jesus?


thinker


thethinker

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2012, 11:30:17 AM »
Well, even John said he didn't know what we would be like and he saw Jesus in 3 different states. So, the fact is, no one knows for certain.
But I believe we will be as supernatural and glorious as those on the Mt. of transfiguration.

We won't take our imperfect flesh with us ever!

From my article:
 
It is not the physical body that is raptured. It is the Christian himself who is raptured as he leaves his body behind at physical death and moves into the spiritual realm. The dead believers were resurrected when Christ returned, and all other Christians would be caught up at their physical death.


Exactly and manna!

Paul said nothing about physical bodies being "caught up." He simply said that "WE who are living and carry over will be caught up."  Paul told the Corinthians that they would be clothed in the body which is "not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." He had just said that we are looking for the things which are "UNSEEN." So when we put it all together we see that it is the SOUL which is caught up to its heavenly body. "This I say then, that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God."

The reading "we who are living and carry over" is from Young's Literal Translation. "We who are living and carry over...." This is correct because Paul used present participles which indicate that the living saints CONTINUE to live on the earth after the Lord's coming. They will each be "caught up" individually when they "die" (though they don't "die" in the old covenant sense by going down to sheol).

Paul had told them in his first epistle that the Lord would "all together" preserve their body soul and spirit until the Lord's coming. Their body, soul and spirit would not be separated. So they would be "living and carried over" after the Lord's coming.

Quote
If any shadow of a doubt still rested on the question whether St. Paul believed and taught the incidence of the Parousia in his own day, this passage will dispel it. No words can more clearly imply this belief than this prayer that the Thessalonian Christians might not die before the appearing of Christ.
 
Death is the dissolution of the union between the body, soul, and spirit, and the apostle's prayer is that spirit, soul, and body might 'all together' [oloklhron] be preserved in sanctity till the Lord's coming. This implies the continuance of their corporeal life until that event (THE PAROUSIA, J. Stuart Russell, Baker Book House, page 170)

Then Paul said, "Faithful is He that calls you who also WILL DO IT."

thinker

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2012, 11:30:17 AM »



Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2012, 06:40:51 PM »
Matthew 17:1-5 (KJV)
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Did they see this or only envision it?

Lehigh

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2012, 03:47:03 PM »
Matthew 17:1-5 (KJV)
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Did they see this or only envision it?

We didn't literally see Jesus before and after His resurrection either. On the Mt. of transfiguration Jesus gave the apostles reason to believe in the afterlife by showing them how "alive" Moses and Elijah are.  And only briefly.

The apostles were also given miraculous gifts by Jesus. They were the exception, who would bear witness about Jesus!

Lehigh

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2012, 08:23:55 PM »
Linker said,
Quote
The Lord's transfiguration setting was a pre-view of His coming kingdom .... not an existing condition in the first century

The preterist denies a bodily resurrection of one who dies in Christ today .... says this is not going to happen

.... but the scriptures tell a very different truth

1) The transfiguration was to have the apostles believe that Moses and Elijah's souls were still alive.
2) Flesh and blood doesn't get resurrected in any "rapture" or other time. The believer lays down his "tent" or physical body when he dies.
Quote
The preterist teaches that he is now in heaven  [kingdom now theology] and that there will be no bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ or a supernatural changing of those who will be living at the time of the Lord's harpazo
You should get your facts straight. You don't know what preterism teaches. Heaven now is not the same as the "kingdom now"  The "kingdom" of God came. It is spiritual. We do not teach what is against reality, and reality dictates that "heaven" is still up there and not on earth. Better change your sources of information on preterism.

Quote
The preterist says that the resurrection has passed .... happened in 70 AD and there will be none for him ....or anyone else since

.... and he says that the Lord's immortal body could not be seen by the mortal eye .... a strange thing to say [this is the hobgoblin of the preterist]

Many mortal eyes have and will see the Lord according to scripture .... but only when He chooses to appear

This is just reckless talk.  The resurrection HAS PASSED. You confuse a resurrection after we die with being raised up in Christ Jesus as a new creation. Both manifest materially, but they are spiritual events. Both are resurrections. But none involve the "natural body" (Adam).

"only when He chooses to appear?"  Maybe post-mortem, but in the Bible, He would return to seal "salvation" for all times. (Heb.9:28)

God's end-time plan for mankind's salvation was fulfilled in Christ, when He appeared a second time , for salvation.

Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2012, 09:42:24 PM »
It always amazes me how people consider brainwashing and mental programming as thinking for themselves.

Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2012, 09:49:47 PM »
Let me lay a piece of advice on you, Lehigh, you are using a humanist mindset and Preterism is counting on that.

2 Peter 1:20-21 (KJV)
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

John 16:13 (KJV)
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Isaiah 28:10-13 (KJV)
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Deuteronomy 29:29 (KJV)
29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Proverbs 25:2 (KJV)
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

So when you take from scripture what appeals to just your humanist reasoning...

Proverbs 14:12 (KJV)
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 16:25 (KJV)
25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 18:1 (NKJV)
1 A man who isolates himself seeks his own desire; He rages against all wise judgment.

Proverbs 29:9 (NKJV)
9 If a wise man contends with a foolish man, Whether the fool rages or laughs, there is no peace.

Which I why I suggest Preterists be allowed to peddle their Preterism only in a specifically provided Preterist sub forum of End Times.





inthenow

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2012, 04:06:28 PM »
Just like He said at a earlier time.

Mat 16:28  Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming (appear) in his kingdom.

In (brackets) mine.

coming
G2064
ἔρχομαι
erchomai
er'-khom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] word, ἐλεύθομαι eleuthomai or ἔλθω elthō; which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - accompany, appear, bring, come enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.

Offline fenton

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2012, 06:12:14 PM »

2) Flesh and blood doesn't get resurrected in any "rapture" or other time. The believer lays down his "tent" or physical body when he dies.


My God can do anything!!! ::clappingoverhead::  ::nodding:: ::applause::

Offline Grapesicle

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2012, 08:12:49 PM »
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1 Corinthians 15:20-23)

Christ is the first to rise from the dead and therefore is referred to as the firstfruits of the resurrection:

Was Jesus INVISIBLE?

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:39)

The bible speaks of Jesus having a BODY that was clearly VISIBLE and FELT. However, His body was incorruptible and did not have the limitations that a normal body would have.

The word "FLESH" is used 5 different ways in the bible. It can mean:

1). The body or physical being.
2). The sin nature or old nature.
3). The skin
4). The immaterial nature of man.
5). Man's entire being

The word flesh used of Christ in Luke 24:39 referred to His BODY, however not corruptible. By the way the Docetic Gnostics was a sect that was against the bodily resurrection of Christ. The book of Colossians and 1st John combat this false teaching.

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. (1 Corinthians 151-8)

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (2 Corinthians 5:1)

Our earthly house is our corruptible bodies we have now, while our BUILDING will be our new incorruptible bodies. Hope this helps!

In Christ,
Grapesicle
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 08:31:29 PM by Grapesicle »

inthenow

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2012, 03:24:02 AM »
Those who have died in Christ and those still alive in Christ at the catching up to Him, will be bodily caught up - bodily redeemed, our bodies will be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortal to immortal.
If you wan't scriptures for this, let me know.
Our new bodies won't be flesh and blood but much better, no disease, sadness, etc pure joy.
1Co_15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Lehigh

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2012, 10:36:08 AM »
 

         Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
[Rev.14:13]

          We are perfected in heaven when we die. If this didn't begin in 70AD, as written in Rev., then no one who dies in the Lord is "blessed" at all!! And we would all be accursed at death of the natural body.