Author Topic: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye  (Read 4378 times)

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Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #35 on: Sat Mar 24, 2012 - 19:40:51 »
Matthew 17:1-5 (KJV)
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Did they see this or only envision it?

Lehigh

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #36 on: Sun Mar 25, 2012 - 16:47:03 »
Matthew 17:1-5 (KJV)
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Did they see this or only envision it?

We didn't literally see Jesus before and after His resurrection either. On the Mt. of transfiguration Jesus gave the apostles reason to believe in the afterlife by showing them how "alive" Moses and Elijah are.  And only briefly.

The apostles were also given miraculous gifts by Jesus. They were the exception, who would bear witness about Jesus!

Lehigh

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #37 on: Sun Mar 25, 2012 - 21:23:55 »
Linker said,
Quote
The Lord's transfiguration setting was a pre-view of His coming kingdom .... not an existing condition in the first century

The preterist denies a bodily resurrection of one who dies in Christ today .... says this is not going to happen

.... but the scriptures tell a very different truth

1) The transfiguration was to have the apostles believe that Moses and Elijah's souls were still alive.
2) Flesh and blood doesn't get resurrected in any "rapture" or other time. The believer lays down his "tent" or physical body when he dies.
Quote
The preterist teaches that he is now in heaven  [kingdom now theology] and that there will be no bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ or a supernatural changing of those who will be living at the time of the Lord's harpazo
You should get your facts straight. You don't know what preterism teaches. Heaven now is not the same as the "kingdom now"  The "kingdom" of God came. It is spiritual. We do not teach what is against reality, and reality dictates that "heaven" is still up there and not on earth. Better change your sources of information on preterism.

Quote
The preterist says that the resurrection has passed .... happened in 70 AD and there will be none for him ....or anyone else since

.... and he says that the Lord's immortal body could not be seen by the mortal eye .... a strange thing to say [this is the hobgoblin of the preterist]

Many mortal eyes have and will see the Lord according to scripture .... but only when He chooses to appear

This is just reckless talk.  The resurrection HAS PASSED. You confuse a resurrection after we die with being raised up in Christ Jesus as a new creation. Both manifest materially, but they are spiritual events. Both are resurrections. But none involve the "natural body" (Adam).

"only when He chooses to appear?"  Maybe post-mortem, but in the Bible, He would return to seal "salvation" for all times. (Heb.9:28)

God's end-time plan for mankind's salvation was fulfilled in Christ, when He appeared a second time , for salvation.

Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #38 on: Sun Mar 25, 2012 - 22:42:24 »
It always amazes me how people consider brainwashing and mental programming as thinking for themselves.

Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #39 on: Sun Mar 25, 2012 - 22:49:47 »
Let me lay a piece of advice on you, Lehigh, you are using a humanist mindset and Preterism is counting on that.

2 Peter 1:20-21 (KJV)
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

John 16:13 (KJV)
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Isaiah 28:10-13 (KJV)
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Deuteronomy 29:29 (KJV)
29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Proverbs 25:2 (KJV)
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

So when you take from scripture what appeals to just your humanist reasoning...

Proverbs 14:12 (KJV)
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 16:25 (KJV)
25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 18:1 (NKJV)
1 A man who isolates himself seeks his own desire; He rages against all wise judgment.

Proverbs 29:9 (NKJV)
9 If a wise man contends with a foolish man, Whether the fool rages or laughs, there is no peace.

Which I why I suggest Preterists be allowed to peddle their Preterism only in a specifically provided Preterist sub forum of End Times.





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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #39 on: Sun Mar 25, 2012 - 22:49:47 »



inthenow

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #40 on: Mon Mar 26, 2012 - 17:06:28 »
Just like He said at a earlier time.

Mat 16:28  Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming (appear) in his kingdom.

In (brackets) mine.

coming
G2064
ἔρχομαι
erchomai
er'-khom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred [middle voice] word, ἐλεύθομαι eleuthomai or ἔλθω elthō; which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): - accompany, appear, bring, come enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.

Offline fenton

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #41 on: Mon Mar 26, 2012 - 19:12:14 »

2) Flesh and blood doesn't get resurrected in any "rapture" or other time. The believer lays down his "tent" or physical body when he dies.


My God can do anything!!! ::clappingoverhead::  ::nodding:: ::applause::

Offline Grapesicle

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #42 on: Mon Mar 26, 2012 - 21:12:49 »
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1 Corinthians 15:20-23)

Christ is the first to rise from the dead and therefore is referred to as the firstfruits of the resurrection:

Was Jesus INVISIBLE?

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Luke 24:39)

The bible speaks of Jesus having a BODY that was clearly VISIBLE and FELT. However, His body was incorruptible and did not have the limitations that a normal body would have.

The word "FLESH" is used 5 different ways in the bible. It can mean:

1). The body or physical being.
2). The sin nature or old nature.
3). The skin
4). The immaterial nature of man.
5). Man's entire being

The word flesh used of Christ in Luke 24:39 referred to His BODY, however not corruptible. By the way the Docetic Gnostics was a sect that was against the bodily resurrection of Christ. The book of Colossians and 1st John combat this false teaching.

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. (1 Corinthians 151-8)

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (2 Corinthians 5:1)

Our earthly house is our corruptible bodies we have now, while our BUILDING will be our new incorruptible bodies. Hope this helps!

In Christ,
Grapesicle
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 26, 2012 - 21:31:29 by Grapesicle »

inthenow

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #43 on: Tue Mar 27, 2012 - 04:24:02 »
Those who have died in Christ and those still alive in Christ at the catching up to Him, will be bodily caught up - bodily redeemed, our bodies will be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortal to immortal.
If you wan't scriptures for this, let me know.
Our new bodies won't be flesh and blood but much better, no disease, sadness, etc pure joy.
1Co_15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Lehigh

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #44 on: Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 11:36:08 »
 

         Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
[Rev.14:13]

          We are perfected in heaven when we die. If this didn't begin in 70AD, as written in Rev., then no one who dies in the Lord is "blessed" at all!! And we would all be accursed at death of the natural body.

         

inthenow

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #45 on: Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 17:23:13 »
 

         Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
[Rev.14:13]

          We are perfected in heaven when we die. If this didn't begin in 70AD, as written in Rev., then no one who dies in the Lord is "blessed" at all!! And we would all be accursed at death of the natural body.

         
Rev 14:13 hasn't happened yet.
Or did josephus see this also?

Rev 14:6  And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

Offline fenton

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #46 on: Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 17:26:24 »
Jesus comes in the night like a thief.
He comes in the clouds. every one will see Him

help here!!!!

is it because its dark on one side of the earth or what

Offline HeRoseFromTheDead

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #47 on: Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 17:47:57 »
Jesus comes in the night like a thief. He comes in the clouds. every one will see Him

help here!!!!

is it because its dark on one side of the earth or what

Jesus comes as a thief because those who aren't looking for him won't know until he comes; then every eye will see him. Those who are looking for him (including the dead in him) will rise or be transformed. The wicked will see all of this, realize they have been abandoned to wrath, and will weep.

Lehigh

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #48 on: Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 18:12:13 »
Jesus comes in the night like a thief. He comes in the clouds. every one will see Him

help here!!!!

is it because its dark on one side of the earth or what

Jesus comes as a thief because those who aren't looking for him won't know until he comes; then every eye will see him. Those who are looking for him (including the dead in him) will rise or be transformed. The wicked will see all of this, realize they have been abandoned to wrath, and will weep.

Lofty interpretation, but I disagree.

    "For I say unto you [Jerusalem, the scribes, the Pharisees], You shall not see Me henceforth, till you shall say, 'Blessed is He Who comes in the name of the Lord.'" (Matt. 23:39; Lk. 21:35)

All the tribes of the Land of Judea saw Jesus again and acknowledged Him as King in A.D. 70:

    "Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the Land will mourn over Him. Even so. Amen." (Rev. 1:7)

    "...Then all the tribes of the Land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the heavens with power and great glory." (Matt. 24:30; Mk. 13:26; Lk. 21:27)

    "...Hereafter you [Caiaphas the high priest, the scribes, elders, chief priests, the whole Sanhedrin] shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:57-64; Mk. 14:53-62)

    "Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie-- behold, I will make them to come and bow down at your feet, and to know that I have loved you." (Rev. 3:9; cf. Isa. 60:14)

    "And the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the Face of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of Their wrath has come; and who is able to stand?" (Rev. 6:15-17)

Most futurists interpret Matt. 23:39 as an implied promise of salvation for "the Jews" in our future. They see the verse as a declaration that the Jews would go through a long time of spiritual blindness until they are converted to Christ shortly before His Second Coming at the end of "the Church Age."

That interpretation seems credible in a futuristic framework. However, the context (Matt. 23-24) indicates that the verse is a promise of judgment against the first-century Jews; and as other Scriptures (some cited above) reveal, Jerusalem did "see" Jesus again when He Appeared the second time (Heb.9:28) to destroy the holy City and its Sanctuary, (Dan. 9:24-27; Heb. 9:8) and to set up His eternal Throne among believers. (Rev. 22:3)

Matt. 23:39 was a prophecy of final subjugation, (Ps. 110:1; Matt. 22:44; Mk. 12:36; Lk. 20:43; Acts 2:35; I Cor. 15:25, 27; Eph. 1:22; Heb. 1:13; 2:8; 10:13) not of salvation. When the Son of Man came in the cataclysm of A.D. 70 to violently take the Kingdom from His enemies (i.e., the scribes, Pharisees, etc.) and give it to His Church (Matt. 21:43), the unbelieving Jews were forced to see (perceive, understand, know) and forced to admit that Jesus is the King, the Son of God --though their recognition and confession of Him in that mournful hour was too little and too late:

    "Many will say to Me on that Day, 'Lord, Lord...' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." (Matt. 7:22-23; cf. Heb. 10:26-27; 12:17)


  [From Eschatology.org]

Offline fenton

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #49 on: Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 18:15:21 »
Jesus comes in the night like a thief. He comes in the clouds. every one will see Him

help here!!!!

is it because its dark on one side of the earth or what

Jesus comes as a thief because those who aren't looking for him won't know until he comes; then every eye will see him. Those who are looking for him (including the dead in him) will rise or be transformed. The wicked will see all of this, realize they have been abandoned to wrath, and will weep.

Lofty interpretation, but I disagree.

    "For I say unto you [Jerusalem, the scribes, the Pharisees], You shall not see Me henceforth, till you shall say, 'Blessed is He Who comes in the name of the Lord.'" (Matt. 23:39; Lk. 21:35)

All the tribes of the Land of Judea saw Jesus again and acknowledged Him as King in A.D. 70:

    "Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the Land will mourn over Him. Even so. Amen." (Rev. 1:7)

    "...Then all the tribes of the Land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the heavens with power and great glory." (Matt. 24:30; Mk. 13:26; Lk. 21:27)

    "...Hereafter you [Caiaphas the high priest, the scribes, elders, chief priests, the whole Sanhedrin] shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matt. 26:57-64; Mk. 14:53-62)

    "Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie-- behold, I will make them to come and bow down at your feet, and to know that I have loved you." (Rev. 3:9; cf. Isa. 60:14)

    "And the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the Face of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of Their wrath has come; and who is able to stand?" (Rev. 6:15-17)

Most futurists interpret Matt. 23:39 as an implied promise of salvation for "the Jews" in our future. They see the verse as a declaration that the Jews would go through a long time of spiritual blindness until they are converted to Christ shortly before His Second Coming at the end of "the Church Age."

That interpretation seems credible in a futuristic framework. However, the context (Matt. 23-24) indicates that the verse is a promise of judgment against the first-century Jews; and as other Scriptures (some cited above) reveal, Jerusalem did "see" Jesus again when He Appeared the second time (Heb.9:28) to destroy the holy City and its Sanctuary, (Dan. 9:24-27; Heb. 9:8) and to set up His eternal Throne among believers. (Rev. 22:3)

Matt. 23:39 was a prophecy of final subjugation, (Ps. 110:1; Matt. 22:44; Mk. 12:36; Lk. 20:43; Acts 2:35; I Cor. 15:25, 27; Eph. 1:22; Heb. 1:13; 2:8; 10:13) not of salvation. When the Son of Man came in the cataclysm of A.D. 70 to violently take the Kingdom from His enemies (i.e., the scribes, Pharisees, etc.) and give it to His Church (Matt. 21:43), the unbelieving Jews were forced to see (perceive, understand, know) and forced to admit that Jesus is the King, the Son of God --though their recognition and confession of Him in that mournful hour was too little and too late:

    "Many will say to Me on that Day, 'Lord, Lord...' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness." (Matt. 7:22-23; cf. Heb. 10:26-27; 12:17)


  [From Eschatology.org]


No Surprise here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lehigh

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #50 on: Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 18:23:23 »

 It was posted for your next study time.  You're welcome.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #51 on: Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 20:48:20 »
Jesus comes in the night like a thief.
He comes in the clouds. every one will see Him

help here!!!!

is it because its dark on one side of the earth or what
Like a "thief in the night" doesn't mean unexpectedly.  It means something closer to "violently."

What is intimated is that he seizes and carries away forcibly.  Check out the entry in your lexicon for the Greek word "harpazo," and compare it to the word for thief used in this verse, as well as in 2Thessalonians 4.  The Bible is very consistent in using this word to describe this event.

Jarrod

Offline fenton

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #52 on: Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 01:23:30 »


Mar_13:26  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Rev_1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

so this means the rapture?



1Th_5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2Pe_3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

and this means after the tribulation?

after the thousand years?
 
He will then remove the ones that did not take the mark?

inthenow

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #53 on: Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 04:29:00 »
1Th_5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Lehigh

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #54 on: Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 11:00:25 »

 Correct, the wicked of Israel (the harlot) would be "taken" and left behind. The Lord answered: where a body is there will be a carcass plucked by vultures.

 Then the dead would be raised and that would be invisible.  OF COURSE!