Author Topic: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye  (Read 4035 times)

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larry2

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2012, 06:05:31 AM »

Christ comes on clouds which is one of His means of transport:
Psa_104:3  Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:


Hi Inthenow, and I truly do not believe Jesus uses the physical atmosphere as the means to come from heaven, and the tallest clouds I have read of were 75000 feet; a little over six and one half miles. I suggest that the fact there are saints in heaven Jesus is to bring with Him in 1Th 4:14 , they are those cloud of witnesses.

Below we see the chariots around Elisha.

2 Kings 6:16  . .  they that be with us are more than they that be with them.
 
2 Kings 6:17  And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

Revelation 8:13  And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven. 
 
2 Kings 2:1  And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. What was that whirlwind? Isaiah 66:15  For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind . Jeremiah 4:13  Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind.

2 Kings 2:11  And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.


1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Jesus brings the spirits of those who have died in Him to be united with their risen changed glorified redeemed body, then we who are alive in Christ are caught up to them in the clouds in the air.
There is no mention of witnesses in those verses, are you referring to those spirits that have died in Christ?

When raptured we will be turned into spirit beings with redeemed bodies, not turned into spirits, the dead in Christ (spirits) are bought here to receive their risen changed immortal bodies. I believe.



Yes, I am talking of those that have preceded us into heaven presently in spirit; their bodies will be caught up, and we which remain alive will be caught up body and spirit to meet them and Jesus in the air.

These are just my thoughts.

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larry2

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2012, 06:28:34 AM »

Are you trying to be rude? I'm not...


rofl  The polite Preterist huh?
Now I can add "Isn't it possible" to:

how do you know  
are you sure
It makes sense.
Isn't it possible


Preterists like to call anyone not believing them or Josephus "Futurists," so I'm coining a new term for them: "Stuck in the seventies." or maybe "Thus sayeth Josephus'ers"

What I'm asking is for you to prove what you're saying. Thanks.


The term futurist, at least when I use it, means exactly what it says.. those who believe the end times prophecies are yet future. I do not use this term in a derogatory way.


You've got to be kidding.  ::smile:: I have yet to read of any that disagreed with the "Josephus fable crowd" not being told they were wrong. Futurist is their cute term to show disrespect for their position.


I think I'm in the same position as you are, since you've yet to prove that Jesus' coming is in literal clouds, or that the clouds Revelation 1 is referring to are in fact the "cloud of witnesses" Hebrews speaks of.

I mentioned Psalm 18 twice, does that mean nothing to you in this context? If not, why not?


As to Psalm Eighteen, I have stated my position with scripture. When you ask: "are you sure", you have no idea what you're talking about, and I don't either.

Offline DaveW

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2012, 06:54:29 AM »
I am wondering what the OP has to do with our walking out our salvation.  Does this supposition have some practical application or is it just an intelectual excercise?

I find most arguing about end-of-time events to have little practical value. The big exception is that which says we do not have to _____ (something clearly commanded) because XYZ has happened already.

raggthyme

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2012, 10:19:50 AM »

You've got to be kidding.  ::smile:: I have yet to read of any that disagreed with the "Josephus fable crowd" not being told they were wrong. Futurist is their cute term to show disrespect for their position.


As to Psalm Eighteen, I have stated my position with scripture. When you ask: "are you sure", you have no idea what you're talking about, and I don't either.



As to using the term to show disrespect, I imagine some do that. I don't. All my brothers and sisters locally are futurists and I love them dearly, even though we disagree in this. But you go ahead and believe what you will about my intentions. I won't argue with you about my heart, God knows it.

When I ask, "are you sure" it should be obvious that I'm asking for you to humbly consider the possibility that you have misinterpreted the way in which Jesus would come. You have yet to tell me why you don't consider the imagery of judgment in Psalm 18 at all in the context of Christ coming with clouds, "in the glory of His Father."

I haven't seen you provide Biblical proof as to why you connect Hebrews "cloud of witnesses" with Rev 1's "coming with clouds", only that you connect them. Did I miss it in a post somewhere?



 


thethinker

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2012, 10:34:44 AM »
It never ceases to amaze me how many scriptures Preterists are willing to twist entirely out of their meaning and context to support their doctrines.  ::headscratch::

Matthew 17 (KJV)
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.




It's just as Russell said. He said that the immortal body can be seen if the mortal eye is "assisted." The disciples saw Moses and Elijah because their eyes were assisted. But when they looked again they saw no man but Jesus.

You did not deal with Paul's point that when our outer man perishes we will have a "house" (body) that is "not made with hand, eternal in the heavens." He had just said that we are looking for the things that are "UNSEEN" in connection with his discussion about our immortal condition in the afterlife. Then he said that we will have the body which is "not made with hands," that is, "not of this creation."

Your example from Moses and Elijah proves no more that the eyes of the disciples were assisted to they could see Moses and Elijah. Your example does NOT prove that the bodies of Moses and Elijah were visible in themselves. Why were they invisible the next time the disciples looked?

And why did Paul see Jesus on the road to Damascus when the others with him did not see Jesus? Answer: Because Paul's eyes were divinely assisted. And if Jesus has the same body now that He had after His resurrection, then explain how Paul was blinded upon seeing Jesus. Did Christ's mutilated body blind men before He ascended?

It amazes me how Futurists are very selective in their use of the scriptures.

thinker

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2012, 10:34:44 AM »



larry2

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2012, 11:06:57 AM »

When I ask, "are you sure" it should be obvious that I'm asking for you to humbly consider the possibility that you have misinterpreted the way in which Jesus would come. You have yet to tell me why you don't consider the imagery of judgment in Psalm 18 at all in the context of Christ coming with clouds, "in the glory of His Father."


I do not consider Psalm Eighteen to be the imaginary example of Jesus coming in the clouds in the future for us. 1 Thessalonians 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  Are there any that sleep in Christ today? No, forgive me, I don't even care to hear any more of Preterist thinking. Besides, how can anything I quote make any difference when you believe all this has already occurred?

raggthyme

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2012, 11:18:53 AM »

 No, forgive me, I don't even care to hear any more of Preterist thinking.

Fair enough, thank you for your time.

thethinker

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2012, 11:32:04 AM »

When I ask, "are you sure" it should be obvious that I'm asking for you to humbly consider the possibility that you have misinterpreted the way in which Jesus would come. You have yet to tell me why you don't consider the imagery of judgment in Psalm 18 at all in the context of Christ coming with clouds, "in the glory of His Father."


I do not consider Psalm Eighteen to be the imaginary example of Jesus coming in the clouds in the future for us. 1 Thessalonians 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  Are there any that sleep in Christ today? No, forgive me, I don't even care to hear any more of Preterist thinking. Besides, how can anything I quote make any difference when you believe all this has already occurred?

There are NONE that sleep in Christ today. They were ALL resurrected from their sleep in sheol by AD70. Now we are "caught up" to be with Him in our body from heaven. Saints do NOT die [that is, sleep in sheol] today.

Jesus said that the resurrection "NOW IS"

TRULY I say to you, the hour is coming and NOW IS, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and those hwo hear shall live" (John 5:25)..

Jesus said that the hour for the dead to be raised was "NOW." Paul said that each man would be resurrected in his own "tagma" (group). The first tagma or group was resurrected with Jesus when He was raised up (Matthew 27:51-53). This proves that the hour for the dead to be raised had started! From then on resurrections in groups kept on happening until ad70 when the last group was raised.

When Jesus returned in ad70 to resurrect the last group He brought with Him all those who had ALREADY been resurrected. Paul said that Jesus would come with those that "had slept" (past tense) when He would resurrect those who "sleep" (present tense). So those who had been resurrected previously were with Him when He came to resurrect up the last group from sheol. When the last group was raised He could cast sheol into the lake of fire. So there is no more sheol. The saints of God do not "die" now. They are "caught up" to be with Jesus in their immortal body from heaven and they are like Jesus and they see Him face to face. Their loved ones take care of the body they leave behind. The bugs take care of their body after that.

thinker

Lehigh

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2012, 04:34:32 PM »

The spiritual realm is invisible. We can never "see" God receiving someone's spirit.  We are each individually raptured in this way when we die.

       R>>A>>P>>T>>U>>R>>E
::angel::



Prove it. Was Jesus spiritual after His death? Revelation 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him. How will every eye see a spirit? of for that matter the cloud of witnesses? 

The Apostle John saw saints caught up in Revelation. Who are the alive to be caught up together with the dead in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.  . . the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Are those alive caught up turned into spirits?


Prove it?  ::pondering:: Jesus' body had many forms. Jesus was the Divine exception. We won't be heading to heaven with the scars and defects we may have on and in our fleshly bodies. Jesus' body did not see decay in the grave. He was resurrected in that state to prove it was Him!
The point now is how are we after death?- and that I believe it is like how glorious Moses and Elijah and Jesus were on the Mt. of transfiguration.

When Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians, he was writing to Thessalonian Christians who live in the first century. We MUST understand this if we are going to understand what he is saying.

Let's look at this text and see if we can't understand what the Lord is teaching.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 (NKJV) But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

First of all, who are those who sleep in Jesus? To understand who they are, we need to know what the "hope" was that the Thessalonian believers had but that the unsaved didn't have.

    THE "HOPE" OF ISRAEL WAS THE RESURRECTION:

    Acts 24:15 (NKJV) "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, thatthere will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

    Acts 26:6-8 (NKJV) "And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. 7 "To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain. For this hope's sake, King Agrippa, I am accused by the Jews. 8 "Why should it be thought incredible by you that God raises the dead?

It is clear from this last verse that Paul sees the resurrection of the dead as that which fulfills "the hope of the promise made by God unto our fathers."

    Hosea 13:14 (NKJV) "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes.

So, the "hope" that Paul is talking about to the Thessalonians is the resurrection.

What exactly did they understand about "the resurrection"? The traditional view that is held by most of the church is this: When a believer dies, their body goes into the grave and their spirit goes to heaven to be with the Lord. They are in a disembodied state awaiting the resurrection at the end of time. Then, at the end of time, the Lord returns, resurrects all the decayed bodies of the dead saints, puts them back together, then changes the physically resurrected bodies into spiritual immortal bodies like Christ's.

One of the major problems with this view is that Paul taught that the resurrection was "about to happen" in his day:

    Acts 24:15 (NKJV) "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be (mello -about to be) a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

So, what is the resurrection that was about to happen in Paul's day? It was God removing all the Old Testament dead saints out of Hades and taking them to heaven to live in His presence. Prior to Jesus' messianic work, no one went to Heaven:

    John 3:13 (NKJV) "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Prior to Jesus' messianic work, all who died went to a holding place of the dead and waited for the atoning work of Christ and the resurrection from the dead. Until Christ paid for man's sin, he could not go into God's presence. To be taken out of Sheol and brought into the presence of the Lord is what the Bible calls resurrection. See The Resurrection From the Dead.

Now, back to our question, Who are those who "sleep in Jesus" that Paul speaks of in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14? They are the dead saints of the Old Covenant age that were in Sheol/Hades. Paul assures the Thessolonians that when Christ returned he would rescue the Old Covenant saints from the grave- they would be resurrected.

It appears as though the Thessalonians were concerned for their departed brethren. Paul reassures them by telling them in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 not to worry, for they would rise with Christ at the Parousia, and, "We who remain alive will follow in our turn!" This is directed very specifically toward the first-century Thessalonians.

    1 Thessalonians 4:15 (NKJV) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

Notice what Paul wrote: "By the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord" The "we" who "are alive, and remain"are indeed TIME STATEMENTS, for the "we" MUST be seen as the collective group of Paul and his audience. They (Paul and the Thessalonians) were expecting the return of Christ in their lifetime. This is very clear throughout the book:

    1 Thessalonians 1:10 (NKJV) and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

    1 Thessalonians 2:19 (NKJV) For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?

    1 Thessalonians 3:13 (NKJV) so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

    1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NKJV) Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul and the Thessalonians were clearly expecting to see the return of Christ in their lifetime. Notice also:

    2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 (NKJV) since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us....

Paul, speaking to the Thessalonians of the first century, says that God will repay with tribulation those who trouble them thus giving them rest. When does he say he will do this?

    2 Thessalonians 1:7a.... WHEN THE LORD JESUS IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 WHEN HE COMES, IN THAT DAY, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

The Thessalonian believers will be given rest from their enemies when the Lord returns in His second coming. If the second coming did not happen in their lifetime, the Lord gave them false hope and, in fact, deceived them.

Paul is assuring the Thessalonians that Christ would return in their lifetime and that those who were alive at that time would not go into God's presence ahead of the dead saints. Young's Literal Translation puts it this way:

    1 Thessalonians 4:15 (YLT) for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep,

Let's move on to the next verse in our text:

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 (NKJV) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

If we are going to rightly interpret the Word of God, we must diligently work at it, applying the rules of hermeneutics. The primary rule of hermeneutics is called: the Analogy of Faith -- this means that Scripture interprets Scripture. No part of Scripture can be interpreted in such a way as to render it in conflict with what is clearly taught elsewhere in Scripture.

As we compare Scripture with Scripture, we see that this is apocalyptic language speaking of judgement. Comparing this text to a parallel text in Matthew 24 will help us to better understand its meaning.

    Matthew 24:30-31 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send hisangels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Does that sound familiar? It should, this is a parallel text to the Thessalonian passage. Jesus spoke these words in the context of the destruction of Jerusalem and said that their generation would see all these things fulfilled (Matthew 24:34). In biblical language, "clouds" are symbolic of God's wrath and judgement against the enemies of His people. David said that the Lord delivered him from his enemies while descending on clouds in Psalm 18:3-15. The Lord said that He would ride into Egypt on a cloud and punish them:

    Isaiah 19:1 (KJV) The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

The Lord did not literally ride on a cloud but Egypt did receive this judgement at the hands of the Assyrians (Isaiah 20:1-6). The idea of Jesus physically coming on the clouds would have been contrary to the nature of their understanding of the Old Testament prophets.

A comparison between 1 Thessalonians 4-5 and Matthew 24 is fascinating. As we keep in mind that Jesus uses apocalyptic language in Matthew 24: 29-35, we can't expect the same language to be literal in 1 Thessalonians 4-5. Those who believe the coming in Matthew refers to the spiritual events surrounding Jerusalem's fall would insist that we not literalize the clouds, the angels or the trumpet blast. If they are not literal in Matthew, why would they be in Thessalonians? Matthew is the source of the language in Thessalonians!

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/the_rapture.htm

inthenow

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2012, 04:49:52 PM »

Christ comes on clouds which is one of His means of transport:
Psa_104:3  Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:


Hi Inthenow, and I truly do not believe Jesus uses the physical atmosphere as the means to come from heaven, and the tallest clouds I have read of were 75000 feet; a little over six and one half miles. I suggest that the fact there are saints in heaven Jesus is to bring with Him in 1Th 4:14 , they are those cloud of witnesses.

Below we see the chariots around Elisha.

2 Kings 6:16  . .  they that be with us are more than they that be with them.
 
2 Kings 6:17  And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

Revelation 8:13  And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven. 
 
2 Kings 2:1  And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. What was that whirlwind? Isaiah 66:15  For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind . Jeremiah 4:13  Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind.

2 Kings 2:11  And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.


1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Jesus brings the spirits of those who have died in Him to be united with their risen changed glorified redeemed body, then we who are alive in Christ are caught up to them in the clouds in the air.
There is no mention of witnesses in those verses, are you referring to those spirits that have died in Christ?

When raptured we will be turned into spirit beings with redeemed bodies, not turned into spirits, the dead in Christ (spirits) are bought here to receive their risen changed immortal bodies. I believe.



Yes, I am talking of those that have preceded us into heaven presently in spirit; their bodies will be caught up, and we which remain alive will be caught up body and spirit to meet them and Jesus in the air.

These are just my thoughts.

[/size]
Hello Larry, the spirits of those who died in Christ and perhaps angels with them also, could be referred to as a cloud of witnesses.

But no flesh and blood can look on God and live, yet every eye shall see Him, which is why I believe Christ comes on clouds being literal clouds, His glory is seen through clouds as lightning is.

Exo 33:20  And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

I take most of the Bible as being literal, verses not to be taken literally are clearly figurative (if that's the right word).
cheers

Lehigh

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2012, 04:54:59 PM »

   in case you didn't have enough time to read my post http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/the_rapture.htm

larry2

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2012, 05:14:22 PM »

Jesus' body had many forms. Jesus was the Divine exception. We won't be heading to heaven with the scars and defects we may have on and in our fleshly bodies.


Hi Lejigh. I won't go into Preterist's 70 AD doctrines but will discuss this point if you wish.

Romans 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 
1 John 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We are to be conformed to His image, we shall be like Him, and the proof of that is Jesus' angel. Knowing Jesus probably more than all the apostles, John bowed down to him.

Revelation 22:8  And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Revelation 22:9  Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.


Lehigh

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2012, 05:24:47 PM »
Well, even John said he didn't know what we would be like and he saw Jesus in 3 different states. So, the fact is, no one knows for certain.
But I believe we will be as supernatural and glorious as those on the Mt. of transfiguration.

We won't take our imperfect flesh with us ever!

From my article:
 
It is not the physical body that is raptured. It is the Christian himself who is raptured as he leaves his body behind at physical death and moves into the spiritual realm. The dead believers were resurrected when Christ returned, and all other Christians would be caught up at their physical death.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 05:42:37 PM by Lehigh »

larry2

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2012, 06:07:24 PM »

It is not the physical body that is raptured. It is the Christian himself who is raptured as he leaves his body behind at physical death and moves into the spiritual realm. The dead believers were resurrected when Christ returned, and all other Christians would be caught up at their physical death.



Notice that not all the dead saints arose; also notice it is the bodies and they shall be changed. 

1 Corinthians 15:52  . . the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

KJV - Matthew  27:52  And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose. 
 
NAS95 - Matthew 27:52  The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised 

NIVUS - Matthew 27:52  The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 

Lehigh

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Re: The immortal body is INVISIBLE to the mortal eye
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2012, 01:51:56 PM »

  That is why I posted that link larry2. It is to disprove the physical body rapture! http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/the_rapture.htm

In Matthew 24, Jesus predicted his coming to gather together the saints in that generation. In 1 Thessalonians 4-5, Paul spoke of the same coming of the Lord to gather the saints. How many comings of the Lord, with his angels, in fire, in power and glory, to gather the saints, are there in the NT? Just ONE! The conclusion is inescapable: 1 Thessalonians 4-5 is dealing with exactly the same coming, judgment, and gathering that Matt. 24 is.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (NKJV) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Paul is talking to the Thessalonians about Christ's coming in judgement on Jerusalem in AD 70. When this happened, the Old Covenant saints were raised out of Hades and brought into the presence of the Lord.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

This is the verse that the physical rapture theory comes from. A little time spent looking at the Greek words should quickly dispel many false notions.

Let's start with the first word in the verses -the word "then." This is the Greek word epeita. Normally, when a sequence of events is described, the simple word eita "then" is used. Eita is best translated as "at that time" or "next". Eita is used to indicate an immediate sequence. We see this in:

    John 19:26-27 (NKJV) When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold your son!" 27 Then (eita)He said to the disciple, "Behold your mother!" And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.

This is a series of events - one immediately after the other.

But in our text, the Greek word is not eita but epeita, which is essentially the same Greek word with an "epi" prefix. This has the effect of affixing the word "after" to the word "then", and the best translation becomes "after then", "after that", or "after that time",and thereby doesn't include the idea of right after.

Let's look at some other uses of epeita to get a clearer idea of its meaning:

    Galatians 1:18 (NKJV) Then (epeita) after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days.

In this case, the word "then" involved at least three years later.

    Galatians 1:21 (NKJV) Afterward (epeita) I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.

Paul probably went first to the main seaport, Caesarea, and sailed from there to Tarsus, his birthplace (Acts 9:30). He probably then went from Tarsus, in the region of Cilicia, to Syria. It was a while after he left Jerusalem that he got to Syria and Cilicia.

    Galatians 2:1 (NKJV) Then (epeita) after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me.

Epeita here involves fourteen years.

    1 Corinthians 15:23 (NKJV) But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward (epeita) those who are Christ's at His coming.

Epeita here is referring to a period of forty years. The idea is: "what came at some time afterwards, after that time, not at that time."

Now look at 1 Cor 15:5-8:

    1 Corinthians 15:5-8 (NKJV) and that He was seen by Cephas, then (eita) by the twelve. 6 After that (epeita) He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that (epeita) He was seen by James, then (eita) by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

We see in this passage that both eita and epeita are used. In verse 15:5, we see eita, indicating that the twelve (the original apostles) saw Him immediately after Peter did, the same day. In verse 15:6, epeita is used meaning: "after that time", because the 500 didn't see Him until later. Verse 15:7, again uses epeita, meaning that some time after the 500 saw him, He appeared to James. Next, the reference is that immediately after appearing to James, He appeared to all the apostles.

The point is, that the form of the word for "then"used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is not the form eita, meaning: "right after", but the epeita, meaning: "after that time."

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV) Then (after that time) we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

What would be the point of saying "the dead in Christ will rise first," if the living were to be also caught up and changed at almost the same time? Paul is saying that at the return of Christ the dead in Christ will be resurrected, after that time the living will be "caught up" with them in the clouds at their physical death.

The words "caught up" are the Greek word harpazo, it means: "to snatch away." This is where the word "rapture" comes from. But certainly being "caught up" means something different than a levitation of the physical body from earth up into the atmosphere of the sky. Remember, this being "caught up" happens some time after the second coming.

Harpazo could refer to the body being "caught up" but it could also refer to the Christian being "caught up" without the body. It is used this way in:

    2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (NKJV) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago; whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows; such a one was caught up (harpazo) to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man; whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows; 4 how he was caught up (harpazo) into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paul doesn't know whether the body was involved in this man's "snatching away". The body isn't necessary, then, in the harpazo event, or Paul wouldn't have expressed this uncertainty. We know that Paul didn't mean that living Christians would be caught up in their living, physical bodies at the second coming of Christ because this never happened. Christians were still around on the earth after the second coming, as history plainly tells us.

In the book, BEFORE JERUSALEM FELL: Dating the Book of Revelation -- An Exegetical and Historical Argument for a Pre-A.D. 70 Composition by Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.D., evidence is given that John was seen by Polycarp in the 90s. So, some twenty years after the parousia, John was still around.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Paul says that those who were alive at the second coming will later be caught up together with the dead who were raised, to meet the Lord in the air.

You might ask, "What does the Bible mean when it says that we shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air?" Does this mean we'll be physically sucked up into the sky? What does the word "air" mean? Is it in our atmosphere or the air we breath? I think that Ephesians chapter 2 gives us an idea of what air means here.

    Eph 2:2: "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the AIR, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience."

The word "air" is an another word for heavenly or spiritual realm.
Satan was always an opponent of the scheme of redemption, as we can see throughout the Bible. He was the prince of the power of the air. In Rom. 16:20, Paul says that Satan would be crushed "shortly" under theirfeet (remember original relevance). Jesus now has taken over that sphere and rules in the "air" with the saints since the destruction of Jerusalem. If that is the same "air" where the saints were to meet, then there is no necessity for us to believe that the rapture was to be in the physical realm.

Paul believed that the Lord would return in his lifetime. He preached strongly about the second coming, the resurrection, and judgement, but he never spoke of a physical "rapture" for living Christians.

It is not the physical body that is raptured. It is the Christian himself who is raptured as he leaves his body behind at physical death and moves into the spiritual realm. The dead believers were resurrected when Christ returned, and all other Christians would be caught up at their physical death.

    2 Corinthians 5:1 (NKJV) For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

The rapture takes place at death, when we leave our earthly house and move into our spiritual house.


In looking at the related passages of what immediately followed the parousia, we find the phrases: "Gather the elect from the four winds" in Matt. 24:31; "Each in his own turn" in 1 Cor. 15:23; "We who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17; and "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on" in Rev. 14:13. These are all equivalent, and are all applicable for us today. The process of being "snatched" or "caught away from" death and Hades and being "gathered in" straight to heaven began in A.D. 70. The "rapture" deals with a passage to the heavenly realm. All believers are all snatched away when they die. Revelation 11:18 is clear in showing an ongoing condition in the new age that began at A.D. 70­ "blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." This gathering began with the consummation of the kingdom, after the resurrection of the dead saints out of Hades, and continues throughout this age.

The idea of a "physical rapture" is nowhere to be found in the Bible, neither is it taught there. There is no Scriptural support for it. This escapist philosophy is pure fiction. We are not taught to escape reality in the Scripture, but rather to face it knowing that God will work all things out for our good (Romans 8:28-30).

The writer of Hebrews wrote:

    Hebrews 9:27 (NKJV) And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

We won't escape physical death, we all have an appointment with it. But when we do die physically, we are "raptured" into the heavenly realm, "And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

    1 Thessalonians 4:18 (NKJV) Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Our hope is not to be snatched physically off the face of the earth prior to our death. Our hope is that when we do die physically, we will be "raptured" into the heavenly realm to forever dwell in the presence of the Lord. "Therefore comfort one another with these words."