Author Topic: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.  (Read 4928 times)

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thethinker

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The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« on: Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 03:07:51 »
TO ALL,

On another thread a person said that satan will be loosed after the rapture. But Paul said that "the LAST enemy to be destroyed is death."

This means that satan would have been destroyed BEFORE the rapture. So how can he be loosed after the rapture?

thinker

EdwardGoodie

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #1 on: Fri Feb 03, 2012 - 16:40:43 »
TO ALL,

On another thread a person said that satan will be loosed after the rapture. But Paul said that "the LAST enemy to be destroyed is death."

This means that satan would have been destroyed BEFORE the rapture. So how can he be loosed after the rapture?

thinker

Have you considered the implications of the present passive tense of destroy (καταργειται) in 1 Corinthians 15:26?

1 Corinthians 15:26 - The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.   


Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #2 on: Mon Feb 06, 2012 - 13:52:36 »
Rev 20:10 and the devil that deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire
20:14 and death and hell were thrown into the lake of fire.
20:15 those not found in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 06, 2012 - 14:57:12 »
I don't see that death has been destroyed yet.  So, what's the issue?

Jarrod

thethinker

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #4 on: Tue Feb 07, 2012 - 10:10:05 »
I don't see that death has been destroyed yet.  So, what's the issue?

Jarrod

The issue is that some are saying that satan will be loosed AFTER the rapture. But the LAST enemy to be destroyed is death. So how can satan be loosed for a llittle while and then destroyed over a thousand years later? The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.

Therefore, satan's destruction MUST PRECEDE the rapture.

thinker

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #4 on: Tue Feb 07, 2012 - 10:10:05 »



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #5 on: Tue Feb 07, 2012 - 16:27:16 »
I don't see that death has been destroyed yet.  So, what's the issue?

Jarrod

The issue is that some are saying that satan will be loosed AFTER the rapture. But the LAST enemy to be destroyed is death. So how can satan be loosed for a llittle while and then destroyed over a thousand years later? The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.

Therefore, satan's destruction MUST PRECEDE the rapture.

thinker
Your argument makes no sense.  Nobody who believes in a rapture believes that death ceases at the time of the rapture.  They all believe death keeps right on happening here on earth as the antichrist and his grubby little minions go on a killing spree.

Are you equating satan and death, or something?

Jarrod

EdwardGoodie

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #6 on: Tue Feb 07, 2012 - 20:07:13 »
A few lines above I put forth the following:

Have you considered the implications of the present passive tense of destroy (καταργειται) in 1 Corinthians 15:26?

1 Corinthians 15:26 - The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.   

It seems that no one has bothered to consider its ramifications...

The present passive of destroy literally means "IS BEING DESTROYED."  Therefore a more correct rendering of the verse should be:

1 Corinthians 15:26 - The last enemy that is being destroyed is death.

It is in the process of being destroyed when Paul penned those words.

It isn't physical death folks; it is covenantal death - OLD COVENANT separation from God.  Thousands upon thousands from the house of Israel were being transitioned over from the old covenant ministration of death into the new covenant of Life through Jesus Christ.

But I suppose very few will consider that either...

thethinker

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #7 on: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 02:07:00 »
Jarrod said:
Quote
Your argument makes no sense.  Nobody who believes in a rapture believes that death ceases at the time of the rapture.


You say that my argument makes no sense and what you have said above does? Come on! You say that "nobody" believes that death ceases at the time of the resurrection and the rapture? Albert Barnes is a much better theologian than you and me:

Quote
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death - The other foes of God should be subdued BEFORE the final resurrection. The enmity of the human heart should be subdued by the triumphs of the gospel. The scepter of Satan should be broken and wrested from him. The false systems of religion that had tyrannized over people should be destroyed. The gospel should have spread everywhere, and the world be converted to God. And nothing should remain but to "subdue" or destroy death, and that would be by the resurrection.

http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/15-26.htm


Note that Barnes says that "all other foes are subdued BEFORE the final resurrection." Therefore, Barnes CORRECTLY places the resurrection and the rapture at the VERY END where Paul placed it.

After death is destroyed there are NO MORE ENEMIES! It's plain!

Quote
They all believe death keeps right on happening here on earth as the antichrist and his grubby little minions go on a killing spree


First, you said that "they all believe...." Let's just discuss what the scriptures say and and not what "they all believe."

Second, what "they all believe" and how what they believe goes contrary to scripture is what I am talking about. I said that some here are saying that satan is loosed after the LAST enemy is destroyed. How can satan be "loosed" to wreak havoc after the LAST enemy is destroyed?

Quote
Are you equating satan and death, or something?


How could I be equating satan and death when I have said twice before in this thread that the LAST enemy to be destroyed is death. I have said that this means that satan would have been destroyed BEFORE death is destroyed. So how can I be equating satan and death and how can satan be "loosed" after the LAST enemy death is destroyed?


thinker
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 10, 2012 - 02:13:51 by thethinker »

Offline n2thelight

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #8 on: Sat Feb 11, 2012 - 21:35:25 »
I Corinthians 15:24 "Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

At the very end of the Millennium age, the Son will deliver His Kingdom up to the Father. At the time of the Judgment God will put an end to all the rule and all power and authority that Satan will have on this world, or anywhere. That is when God will send Satan and all his realm and all evil and those that chose to follow him into the lake of fire.

 I Corinthians 15:25 "For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet."

Jesus Christ must reign until all of His enemies, which includes Satan, the fallen angels and all the souls of them that chose to follow him will be destroyed. This comes after the time of judgment and the Millennium thousand year reign of Christ kingdom on earth. This is why the full Godhead will not be on the earth until after the Great white throne judgment and hell has turned Satan and his realm to ashes. There are two death as we read of in Revelation 20.

Revelation 20:11 "And I saw a great white throne, and Him That sat on it, from Whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

This is John writing and speaking as Jesus is showing him what is going to happen in the future. John is viewing the time at the great white throne judgment, and the events after the age of the flesh is over, and after Jesus has returned and His thousand year Millennium is over and finished.

Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

There are several things to notice here; first that the dead that are judged at this time are those whose souls that have not received Jesus Christ and under the shed blood of Christ. They are spiritually dead.

There are two sets of books kept, one is the "book of life" where only your name is written, and that is because all sins have been forgiven and are blotted out, and the only thing remaining is your name.

The second set of books kept by God are for the spiritually dead, and all their works are recorded and will documented and they will be used here on judgment day. The dead will be judged out of the books by their works and their refusal to accept the shed blood of Christ as the sacrifice for their sins.

Revelation 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

The sea that gives up the dead, is from the earth age of the Millennium, and those places where God holds the fallen angels and those not allowed into the Millennium age, will be delivered up to stand accountable at this time. This verse is directed only to the souls that are spiritually dead. Every souls will stand accountable for all of their works.

Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

There is only one thing that will allow a soul to survive this judgment and that is the blood of Christ, and your name recorded in the "book of life". All other spiritually dead souls will be ushered into the lake of fire, right along with Satan, and all his demonic realm, and that includes that sweet old lady that was to good for the blood of Christ. It includes the minister that had devised another way to salvation, and it includes you if you follow them in their ways.

Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

It is pretty cut and dry, with no loop-holes. You are either part of the eternal kingdom or you are not, there is no way out or through except for the saving blood of Jesus Christ. Your name is either written in the book of life, or it is not. Satan is going to be destroyed at this time, and all those that chose to follow him.

I Corinthians 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

This last enemy that shall be destroyed is "death", which is one of Satan's names, and that will be the second death. It is the death of all evil, and it is a spiritual death. Friend, not even Satan is destroyed until after the great white throne judgment. The first death is the death of your flesh body, while the second death is the death of your very soul itself. It will be blotted out as though it had never existed, not even in the minds of your mother and loved ones. This is the most tragic thing that can happen to a child of God.

I Corinthians 15:27 "For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith "all things are put under Him" it is manifest that He is excepted, Which did put all things under Him.."

Then, when the great white throne judgment is over and finish, and Satan and all sinners are turned to ashes, then the entire Godhead will come to this earth and dwell with us. Then the eternal kingdom will be in existence as it is written in Revelation 21.

http://www.theseason.org/1corin/1corin15.htm


thethinker

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #9 on: Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 10:49:59 »
Is there a Futurist here who is willing to deal with Paul's chronology? He said that the "LAST enemy to be destroyed is death." So how can satan be loosed after the resurrection and the rapture when ALL other enemies will have been destroyed before then including satan?

thinker

Offline n2thelight

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #10 on: Mon Feb 13, 2012 - 22:19:14 »
Is there a Futurist here who is willing to deal with Paul's chronology? He said that the "LAST enemy to be destroyed is death." So how can satan be loosed after the resurrection and the rapture when ALL other enemies will have been destroyed before then including satan?

thinker

from a rapture standpoint I can't answer as I don't believe in it...........

What needs to be understood is that,satan is death.......

thethinker

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #11 on: Sun Feb 19, 2012 - 10:12:37 »
Is there a Futurist here who is willing to deal with Paul's chronology? He said that the "LAST enemy to be destroyed is death." So how can satan be loosed after the resurrection and the rapture when ALL other enemies will have been destroyed before then including satan?

thinker

from a rapture standpoint I can't answer as I don't believe in it...........

What needs to be understood is that,satan is death.......

You don't believe in the rapture of the body? Or you don't believe in any rapture of any kind?

Satan had the power of death but is not death itself.

thinker

Offline LightHammer

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #12 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 13:59:25 »
I don't believe in the popular version of the rapture mainly because I don't believe in the popular version of the Millennium Age where Christ reigns on Earth.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this but your emphasizes on chronology is tantamount to disproving both the popular rapture and millennium age doctrines.

Offline n2thelight

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #13 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 22:32:49 »
Is there a Futurist here who is willing to deal with Paul's chronology? He said that the "LAST enemy to be destroyed is death." So how can satan be loosed after the resurrection and the rapture when ALL other enemies will have been destroyed before then including satan?

thinker

from a rapture standpoint I can't answer as I don't believe in it...........

What needs to be understood is that,satan is death.......

You don't believe in the rapture of the body? Or you don't believe in any rapture of any kind?

Satan had the power of death but is not death itself.

thinker

death is just one of satan's many names,depending on what role he is or has played........

examples below

The Accuser - Rev 12:10

The Adversary - 1 Pet 5:8

Beelzebub - Matt 10:25, Mark 3:22

The Devil (Means "Slanderer" & Indicates he's a Tempter of Men) Rev 12:9,12,20:10, John 8:44

The Desolate - Gal 4:27

The Destroyer - John 10:10

The Deceiver - Rev 12:9

The Dragon (this Name Indicates Cruelty) - Rev 12:7,13,17, Rev 13:2, and many more

The Enemy - Matt 13:39

The Father of Lies - John 8:44

The Great Dragon - Rev 12:9

The Great red Dragon - Rev 12:3

The God of this world (or age) - 2 Cor 4:4

The King of Tyrus- Ezek 28:12

The Lawless one - 2 Thess 2:9 NIV

A Liar - John 8:44

Lucifer (also means Light Bearer or Brilliant one) - Isa 14:12

A Murderer - John 8:44

The Power of Darkness - Col 1:13

The Prince of the Power of the air - Eph 2:2

The Prince of the devils - Mark 3:22

The Prince of this World - John 14:30

Satan (this means "adversary" or "oppressor", this indicates he is the adversary of Christ and His People and the accuser of the brethren) - Rev 12:9, Mark 3:23,26, and many more

The Serpent (this Indicates Guile and Deception) - Gen 3:1, Rev 12:15

The son of the morning - Isa 14:12

The Tempter - Matt 4:3

The Thief- John 10:10

The Wicked - Eph 6:16

Offline LightHammer

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #14 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 15:00:41 »
Is there a Futurist here who is willing to deal with Paul's chronology? He said that the "LAST enemy to be destroyed is death." So how can satan be loosed after the resurrection and the rapture when ALL other enemies will have been destroyed before then including satan?

thinker

from a rapture standpoint I can't answer as I don't believe in it...........

What needs to be understood is that,satan is death.......

You don't believe in the rapture of the body? Or you don't believe in any rapture of any kind?

Satan had the power of death but is not death itself.

thinker

death is just one of satan's many names,depending on what role he is or has played........

examples below

The Accuser - Rev 12:10

The Adversary - 1 Pet 5:8

Beelzebub - Matt 10:25, Mark 3:22

The Devil (Means "Slanderer" & Indicates he's a Tempter of Men) Rev 12:9,12,20:10, John 8:44

The Desolate - Gal 4:27

The Destroyer - John 10:10

The Deceiver - Rev 12:9

The Dragon (this Name Indicates Cruelty) - Rev 12:7,13,17, Rev 13:2, and many more

The Enemy - Matt 13:39

The Father of Lies - John 8:44

The Great Dragon - Rev 12:9

The Great red Dragon - Rev 12:3

The God of this world (or age) - 2 Cor 4:4

The King of Tyrus- Ezek 28:12

The Lawless one - 2 Thess 2:9 NIV

A Liar - John 8:44

Lucifer (also means Light Bearer or Brilliant one) - Isa 14:12

A Murderer - John 8:44

The Power of Darkness - Col 1:13

The Prince of the Power of the air - Eph 2:2

The Prince of the devils - Mark 3:22

The Prince of this World - John 14:30

Satan (this means "adversary" or "oppressor", this indicates he is the adversary of Christ and His People and the accuser of the brethren) - Rev 12:9, Mark 3:23,26, and many more

The Serpent (this Indicates Guile and Deception) - Gen 3:1, Rev 12:15

The son of the morning - Isa 14:12

The Tempter - Matt 4:3

The Thief- John 10:10

The Wicked - Eph 6:16


Death is not a name of Satan. One is being and the other is phenomenon. They are separate with separate histories and even separate times appointed for their ends.

Satan is destroyed.

Revelation 20:10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

After Satan is done away with then comes Final Judgment.

Revelation 20:11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

During the Final Judgment, which doesn't convene until after Satan is destroyed, the completely separate and independent Death is destroyed.

Revelation 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Death is not a name for Satan.




Memphis Dwight

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #15 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 16:12:18 »
Edward,
I read your comments and they are 'right on the money.'  Tis a shame no one else will slow down long enough to contemplate the simple answer you gave. 

Offline LightHammer

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #16 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 16:34:55 »
Edward,
I read your comments and they are 'right on the money.'  Tis a shame no one else will slow down long enough to contemplate the simple answer you gave. 

I don't see how you say that.

They seem completely immaterial to the OP. Whether Death is currently in the process of being destroyed (which is a baseless statement) or if the destruction of Death will come at a single appointed time, the fact remains that Death is the last enemy to be destroyed.


thethinker

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #17 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 08:51:58 »
Edward,
I read your comments and they are 'right on the money.'  Tis a shame no one else will slow down long enough to contemplate the simple answer you gave. 

I don't see how you say that.

They seem completely immaterial to the OP. Whether Death is currently in the process of being destroyed (which is a baseless statement) or if the destruction of Death will come at a single appointed time, the fact remains that Death is the last enemy to be destroyed.



Thank you! If death is the LAST enemy to be destroyed, then satan cannot be loosed afterwards. Satan would have been destroyed before death was destroyed.

thinker

thethinker

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #18 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 03:21:16 »
THE MAN OF SIN
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Christ destroys the beast and the false prophet at His coming, not satan.

First, Paul promised the Roman Christians that God would crush satan under THEIR feet "SHORTLY."

"And the God of peace will crush Satan under YOUR feet SHORTLY."

The first generation Christians saw satan destroyed under THEIR feet. God keeps His promises.

Second, when Christ comes the LAST enemy which is death is destroyed. Therefore, no enemies remain after the rapture. The man of sin ans satan both will have been destroyed BEFORE the rpature.

thinker

thethinker

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #19 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 03:49:38 »
Quote
If satan is the beast, how is it the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire after Christ's return, and satan is bound a thousand years and then thrown into the lake of fire.

It doesn't matter who the beast is. The LAST enemy which is death will have been destroyed at Christ's coming (1 Cor. 15:26). So satan and the beast will have been destroyed BEFORE the rapture.

thinker

thethinker

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #20 on: Fri Mar 16, 2012 - 13:10:01 »
Bumped for the Futurists. See op.

thinker

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #21 on: Fri Mar 16, 2012 - 18:03:58 »
Death has been destroyed, but one day it will be in a totally literal sense
----the Devil, who has the power of death has BEEN defeated--but Satan has been allowed to continue on earth--and is being defeated and cornered as each day marches on.  After the rapture he will be imprisoned for 1000 years, and then released one more time upon the earth. (See REV. 20).

Then, at the very end of time, death will finally be "destroyed" in a very real sense:

The last thing thrown into the Lake of Fire is this:

"The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.  The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.  Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death". (Rev. 20:13,14)

Note: death and hell are the last things thrown into the lake of fire--and everyone not written in the book of life. So, the last enemy to be destroyed is death and hell---but this will happen far after the Rapture and the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.

thethinker

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #22 on: Fri Mar 16, 2012 - 18:21:00 »
Death has been destroyed, but one day it will be in a totally literal sense
----the Devil, who has the power of death has BEEN defeated--but Satan has been allowed to continue on earth--and is being defeated and cornered as each day marches on.  After the rapture he will be imprisoned for 1000 years, and then released one more time upon the earth. (See REV. 20).

More Futurist diplopia and double talk. The LAST ENEMY which is death is destroyed at the rapture. Therefore, satan CANNOT wreak havoc after the rapture. He would have been destroyed BEFORE death.

Quote
Then, at the very end of time, death will finally be "destroyed" in a very real sense:

The last thing thrown into the Lake of Fire is this:

"The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.  The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.  Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death". (Rev. 20:13,14)

Note: death and hell are the last things thrown into the lake of fire--and everyone not written in the book of life. So, the last enemy to be destroyed is death and hell---but this will happen far after the Rapture and the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.

Fulfilled per the apostle Paul (2 Timothy 1:10). Saints do NOT 'die' today. They don't go to sheol anymore. Death to the Jew was to be bound in sheol. Sheol has been cast into the lake of fire. Therefore, there is no more death. There is no promise that physical death wil be destroyed. Jesus said, "He who believes im Me shall NEVER die."

See my thread "Satan is in the lake of fire" regarding the 1,000 years. I will bump it up.

thinker

Offline fish153

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #23 on: Fri Mar 16, 2012 - 18:51:12 »
Death has been destroyed, but one day it will be in a totally literal sense
----the Devil, who has the power of death has BEEN defeated--but Satan has been allowed to continue on earth--and is being defeated and cornered as each day marches on.  After the rapture he will be imprisoned for 1000 years, and then released one more time upon the earth. (See REV. 20).

More Futurist diplopia and double talk. The LAST ENEMY which is death is destroyed at the rapture. Therefore, satan CANNOT wreak havoc after the rapture. He would have been destroyed BEFORE death.

Quote
Then, at the very end of time, death will finally be "destroyed" in a very real sense:

The last thing thrown into the Lake of Fire is this:

"The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.  The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.  Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death". (Rev. 20:13,14)

Note: death and hell are the last things thrown into the lake of fire--and everyone not written in the book of life. So, the last enemy to be destroyed is death and hell---but this will happen far after the Rapture and the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.

Fulfilled per the apostle Paul (2 Timothy 1:10). Saints do NOT 'die' today. They don't go to sheol anymore. Death to the Jew was to be bound in sheol. Sheol has been cast into the lake of fire. Therefore, there is no more death. There is no promise that physical death wil be destroyed. Jesus said, "He who believes im Me shall NEVER die."

See my thread "Satan is in the lake of fire" regarding the 1,000 years. I will bump it up.

thinker

You didn't read a thing did you? lol  You are so set in your dogma that you ignore and quickly reply without even considering the scriptures presented to you.  It clearly states that "death and hell" are the last things thrown into the lake of Fire--but that doesn't match your theology so you ignore it.  Oh well.

thethinker

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #24 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 10:52:46 »
fish wrote:
Quote
You didn't read a thing did you? lol  You are so set in your dogma that you ignore and quickly reply without even considering the scriptures presented to you.  It clearly states that "death and hell" are the last things thrown into the lake of Fire--but that doesn't match your theology so you ignore it.  Oh well.

Fish,

It is YOU who is not reading a thing. Paul said that the LAST enemy to be destroyed is death. This happens at Christ's second coming which YOU say is still future. So how can satan insitgate the tribulation and then be bound and then loosed again to wreak more havoc? The LAST enemy is destroyed at Christ's second coming.

You guys take a symbolic book like the Revelation and pit it against Paul's CLEAR chronology. Furthermore, Paul said that Christ's return birings in "the END" when He will "deliver the kingdom to the Father." Yet you guys blatantly contradict Paul and teach that Christ begins His kingdom then. But Paul CLEARLY said that it is "the END" when He "delivers the kingdom to the Father.  He will NOT usher in a kingdom at His return if indeed His return is still in the future as you teach.

Sorry but I take Paul's chronology over yours! Give it up fish man!

thinker

Offline fish153

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #25 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 11:22:33 »
fish wrote:
Quote
You didn't read a thing did you? lol  You are so set in your dogma that you ignore and quickly reply without even considering the scriptures presented to you.  It clearly states that "death and hell" are the last things thrown into the lake of Fire--but that doesn't match your theology so you ignore it.  Oh well.

Fish,

It is YOU who is not reading a thing. Paul said that the LAST enemy to be destroyed is death. This happens at Christ's second coming which YOU say is still future. So how can satan insitgate the tribulation and then be bound and then loosed again to wreak more havoc? The LAST enemy is destroyed at Christ's second coming.

You guys take a symbolic book like the Revelation and pit it against Paul's CLEAR chronology. Furthermore, Paul said that Christ's return birings in "the END" when He will "deliver the kingdom to the Father." Yet you guys blatantly contradict Paul and teach that Christ begins His kingdom then. But Paul CLEARLY said that it is "the END" when He "delivers the kingdom to the Father.  He will NOT usher in a kingdom at His return if indeed His return is still in the future as you teach.

Sorry but I take Paul's chronology over yours! Give it up fish man!

thinker

Thinker---

The chronology is clear.  The rapture occurs, the Anti-christ comes to power.  He and the false prophet are cast "alive" into the Lake of fire.  Then Satan is bound for 1000 years.  This is the Millenial reign of Christ.

When the thousand years are done Satan is released again for a short time.  He leads the world in rebellion and is then destroyed and thrown into the Lake of Fire also.   Then the White Throne Judgment occurs and "death and hell" are then thrown into the Lake of Fire at the last.   This is all in Revelation 20 and very clear.

Thankfully preterist dogma has only affected a small amount of the church--it is a heresy which causes us not to "watch" for Christ as we should be doing faithfully.  It is a destructive heresy.

thethinker

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #26 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 11:46:00 »
fish wrote:
Quote
You didn't read a thing did you? lol  You are so set in your dogma that you ignore and quickly reply without even considering the scriptures presented to you.  It clearly states that "death and hell" are the last things thrown into the lake of Fire--but that doesn't match your theology so you ignore it.  Oh well.


Fish,

It is YOU who is not reading a thing. Paul said that the LAST enemy to be destroyed is death. This happens at Christ's second coming which YOU say is still future. So how can satan insitgate the tribulation and then be bound and then loosed again to wreak more havoc? The LAST enemy is destroyed at Christ's second coming.

You guys take a symbolic book like the Revelation and pit it against Paul's CLEAR chronology. Furthermore, Paul said that Christ's return birings in "the END" when He will "deliver the kingdom to the Father." Yet you guys blatantly contradict Paul and teach that Christ begins His kingdom then. But Paul CLEARLY said that it is "the END" when He "delivers the kingdom to the Father.  He will NOT usher in a kingdom at His return if indeed His return is still in the future as you teach.

Sorry but I take Paul's chronology over yours! Give it up fish man!

thinker


Thinker---

The chronology is clear.  The rapture occurs, the Anti-christ comes to power.  He and the false prophet are cast "alive" into the Lake of fire.  Then Satan is bound for 1000 years.  This is the Millenial reign of Christ.

When the thousand years are done Satan is released again for a short time.  He leads the world in rebellion and is then destroyed and thrown into the Lake of Fire also.   Then the White Throne Judgment occurs and "death and hell" are then thrown into the Lake of Fire at the last.   This is all in Revelation 20 and very clear.

Thankfully preterist dogma has only affected a small amount of the church--it is a heresy which causes us not to "watch" for Christ as we should be doing faithfully.  It is a destructive heresy.


You did NOT answer Paul's chronology in 1 Corinthians 15. All you have done is pit other scriptures against it. Please deal with Paul's chronology DIRECTLY. Pretty please?

Paul said that when Christ comes that it is "the end when He will have delivered the kingdom to the Father." This supports the Preterist view of the PAST fulfillment of the Revelation. Christ's kingdom is brought to its END at His coming.

After death is destroyed there are no more enemies because death is the last enemy to be destroyed.

BTW, Preterism is growing leaps and bounds and is REPLACING Futurist eschatology. Almost all Preterists are former Futurists. Preterism is ushering in the next  Reformation so get used to feeling like a dinosaur.


thinker

Offline fish153

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #27 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 12:21:48 »
fish wrote:
Quote
You didn't read a thing did you? lol  You are so set in your dogma that you ignore and quickly reply without even considering the scriptures presented to you.  It clearly states that "death and hell" are the last things thrown into the lake of Fire--but that doesn't match your theology so you ignore it.  Oh well.


Fish,

It is YOU who is not reading a thing. Paul said that the LAST enemy to be destroyed is death. This happens at Christ's second coming which YOU say is still future. So how can satan insitgate the tribulation and then be bound and then loosed again to wreak more havoc? The LAST enemy is destroyed at Christ's second coming.

You guys take a symbolic book like the Revelation and pit it against Paul's CLEAR chronology. Furthermore, Paul said that Christ's return birings in "the END" when He will "deliver the kingdom to the Father." Yet you guys blatantly contradict Paul and teach that Christ begins His kingdom then. But Paul CLEARLY said that it is "the END" when He "delivers the kingdom to the Father.  He will NOT usher in a kingdom at His return if indeed His return is still in the future as you teach.

Sorry but I take Paul's chronology over yours! Give it up fish man!

thinker


Thinker---

The chronology is clear.  The rapture occurs, the Anti-christ comes to power.  He and the false prophet are cast "alive" into the Lake of fire.  Then Satan is bound for 1000 years.  This is the Millenial reign of Christ.

When the thousand years are done Satan is released again for a short time.  He leads the world in rebellion and is then destroyed and thrown into the Lake of Fire also.   Then the White Throne Judgment occurs and "death and hell" are then thrown into the Lake of Fire at the last.   This is all in Revelation 20 and very clear.

Thankfully preterist dogma has only affected a small amount of the church--it is a heresy which causes us not to "watch" for Christ as we should be doing faithfully.  It is a destructive heresy.


You did NOT answer Paul's chronology in 1 Corinthians 15. All you have done is pit other scriptures against it. Please deal with Paul's chronology DIRECTLY. Pretty please?

Paul said that when Christ comes that it is "the end when He will have delivered the kingdom to the Father." This supports the Preterist view of the PAST fulfillment of the Revelation. Christ's kingdom is brought to its END at His coming.

After death is destroyed there are no more enemies because death is the last enemy to be destroyed.

BTW, Preterism is growing leaps and bounds and is REPLACING Futurist eschatology. Almost all Preterists are former Futurists. Preterism is ushering in the next  Reformation so get used to feeling like a dinosaur.


thinker


I don't know what to tell you Thinker.  A whole chronology of events is laid out before you in Revelation 20.  You hold onto your own interpretation of certain verses to try to refute clear teaching.  Not much more anyone can do when you do that. Whatever toots your horn.  I am waiting and watching for the Lord's return just as he commanded us---in joyful hope.  I hopefully look for the rapture as the Bible teaches us to do.  It's futile to "debate" you when you are set on preterist dogma.

thethinker

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #28 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 12:37:04 »
Fish said:
Quote
I don't know what to tell you Thinker.  A whole chronology of events is laid out before you in Revelation 20.  You hold onto your own interpretation of certain verses to try to refute clear teaching.  Not much more anyone can do when you do that. Whatever toots your horn.  I am waiting and watching for the Lord's return just as he commanded us---in joyful hope.  I hopefully look for the rapture as the Bible teaches us to do.  It's futile to "debate" you when you are set on preterist dogma.

Fish,

I have answered Revelation 20 in my thread "Satan is in the lake of fire." I have reconciled Revelation 20 with Paul's chronology. Please visit that thread.

We MUST reconcile all with Paul. He was Christ's "chosen vessel" to disclose truth to us. Peter submitted to Paul's teachings and you should do no less.


thinker

Offline fenton

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #29 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 12:48:59 »


I don't know what to tell you Thinker.  A whole chronology of events is laid out before you in Revelation 20.  You hold onto your own interpretation of certain verses to try to refute clear teaching.  Not much more anyone can do when you do that. Whatever toots your horn.  I am waiting and watching for the Lord's return just as he commanded us---in joyful hope.  I hopefully look for the rapture as the Bible teaches us to do.  It's futile to "debate" you when you are set on preterist dogma.

 ::amen!::

and it seems that, that is all he studies and "thinks" he knows. one track minds miss alot of stuff. tunnel vision misses the true meaning and is blind to what is around.   ::frown::  ::frown::  
« Last Edit: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 12:56:51 by fenton »

thethinker

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #30 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 13:24:36 »


I don't know what to tell you Thinker.  A whole chronology of events is laid out before you in Revelation 20.  You hold onto your own interpretation of certain verses to try to refute clear teaching.  Not much more anyone can do when you do that. Whatever toots your horn.  I am waiting and watching for the Lord's return just as he commanded us---in joyful hope.  I hopefully look for the rapture as the Bible teaches us to do.  It's futile to "debate" you when you are set on preterist dogma.

 ::amen!::

and it seems that, that is all he studies and "thinks" he knows. one track minds miss alot of stuff. tunnel vision misses the true meaning and is blind to what is around.   ::frown::  ::frown::  

fenton,

Okay man reconcile Revelation 20:4-5 with Matthew 27:51-53

Revelation 20:4-5

"4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection."

Matthew 27:51-53:

51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs WITH his rising they went into the holy city and appeared to many"

Revelation 20 says that the "first resurrection" consisted of those who "came to life" WITH Christ. Matthew 27 says that many came out of the tombs "WITH His rising."

So explain how the first resurrection can still be future. This ought to be good!  ::eatingpopcorn:

thinker

Offline fenton

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #31 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 13:33:11 »


I don't know what to tell you Thinker.  A whole chronology of events is laid out before you in Revelation 20.  You hold onto your own interpretation of certain verses to try to refute clear teaching.  Not much more anyone can do when you do that. Whatever toots your horn.  I am waiting and watching for the Lord's return just as he commanded us---in joyful hope.  I hopefully look for the rapture as the Bible teaches us to do.  It's futile to "debate" you when you are set on preterist dogma.

 ::amen!::

and it seems that, that is all he studies and "thinks" he knows. one track minds miss alot of stuff. tunnel vision misses the true meaning and is blind to what is around.   ::frown::  ::frown::  

fenton,

Okay man reconcille Revelation 20:4-5 with Matthew 27:51-53

Revelation 20:4-5

"4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection."

Matthew 27:51-53:

51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs WITH his rising they went into the holy city and appeared to many"

Revelation 20 says that the "first resurrection" consisted of those who "came to life" WITH Christ. Matthew 27 says that many came out of the tombs "WITH His rising."

So explain how the first resurrection can still be future. This ought to be good!  ::eatingpopcorn:

thinker

even though it has been explained to you better then i can ever explain it, you are still like a soured horse that keeps running back to the barn. with blinders on, you cant see to either side.
hopefully you wont get any popcorn kernels stuck in your teeth

thethinker

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #32 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 14:04:11 »
fenton said:
Quote
even though it has been explained to you better then i can ever explain it, you are still like a soured horse that keeps running back to the barn. with blinders on, you cant see to either side.
hopefully you wont get any popcorn kernels stuck in your teeth

Just as I figured you have no reply. Revelation 20:5 says that they both "came to life" and reigned WITH Christ. So they "came to life" WITH Christ.

Matthew 27:53 says that many saints came out of the tombs WITH His resurrection.

So explain how the FIRST resurrection can be in the future. Do you want truth or not?

thinker

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #33 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 14:09:09 »
fenton said:
Quote
even though it has been explained to you better then i can ever explain it, you are still like a soured horse that keeps running back to the barn. with blinders on, you cant see to either side.
hopefully you wont get any popcorn kernels stuck in your teeth

Just as I figured you have no reply. Revelation 20:5 says that they both "came to life" and reigned WITH Christ. So they "came to life" WITH Christ.

Matthew 27:53 says that many saints came out of the tombs WITH His resurrection.

So explain how the FIRST resurrection can be in the future. Do you want truth or not?

thinker
i replied, you just are to smart to understand it.

inthenow

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Re: The LAST enemy to be destroyed is death.
« Reply #34 on: Mon Mar 19, 2012 - 19:49:51 »
fenton said:
Quote
even though it has been explained to you better then i can ever explain it, you are still like a soured horse that keeps running back to the barn. with blinders on, you cant see to either side.
hopefully you wont get any popcorn kernels stuck in your teeth


Just as I figured you have no reply. Revelation 20:5 says that they both "came to life" and reigned WITH Christ. So they "came to life" WITH Christ.

Matthew 27:53 says that many saints came out of the tombs WITH His resurrection.

So explain how the FIRST resurrection can be in the future. Do you want truth or not?

thinker

Matthew 27:53 is concerning Christ's resurrection.
Revelation 20 is about the first resurrection.

When Christ rose the bodies of saints came out of their graves.
At the first resurrection after Christ returnes with all His saints and destroyed the armies of the world and throws the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire and binds satan for a thousand years, He then reigns with his saints a thousand years, not come to life with them, but reign with them.
You have Jesus coming to life after He has come and destroyed etc.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/the-first-resurrection-is-in-the-past/msg1054681337/#msg1054681337