Author Topic: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections  (Read 1673 times)

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Offline 3 Resurrections

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The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« on: Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 23:26:36 »
Is anyone interested in a resolution to the divide between the different camps of eschatology where the resurrection is concerned?

For several years, I've observed how these polarized positions seem to be incapable of coming to a meeting of the minds on this issue.  Personally, I feel as if eschatology and the IRS code should both have the same sized operations manual - the basic premise should be able to fit on a single sheet of paper.  After all, if it takes a doctor's diploma hanging on the wall to understand it, what comfort would that have been to a first-century martyr waiting his turn to walk out on the bloody sands of an arena?  At that moment, he would have been placing his hope in one thing only - "I trust Christ to preserve my spirit, soul, AND BODY".  For today's Christian martyr, dressed in an orange jumpsuit, and kneeling in the dirt with a sword at his neck, the priorities have not changed.  If the earth under that martyr's knees is destined to never be destroyed, as many presterists claim, would God really care more for preserving the dirt beneath him than the headless body of the man himself?  Which has more value, the "gold" (dust), or "the temple (human body) which sanctifieth the gold"?

Fortunately, it isn't necessary to discard this hope of the physical resurrection of the body in order to hold to the truths found within Preterism.  In fact, the bodily resurrection is the mainstay of the following paradigm:  God has planned 3 physical resurrection events for human history in which, eventually, all of mankind is required to participate.

These 3 resurrections are merely the fulfillment of the OT pattern of the 3 harvest feast celebrations, with attendance required at the place of God's choosing (Deuteronomy 16:16-17).  They provided a living enactment of how God would harvest the physical bodies of mankind - and WHEN He would do so.  God could have spelled out His intentions for the resurrection using only words.  But we all know how words can transition when passing from one language to another.  Since a picture is worth a thousand words, He designed shadow types of the resurrections, using meticulously programmed rituals in the law that were saturated with redemptive meaning.  The Passover Lamb is only one of the images of Christ's actions for redeeming sinful man from the effects of the Fall.


#1)  -  The First Resurrection event was at PASSOVER week in AD 33.  It was undeniably physical in nature.  Incorruptible flesh and bone, (but not blood), and animated by the Spirit.  Along with Christ, our Passover Lamb, the Matthew 27:52-53 saints resurrected that same day were the fulfillment of the type of the sheaf/handful of the barley harvest, presented as the Firstfruits wave-offering in the temple.  These are the 144 Thousand Firstfruits in Rev. 14:4 and the First Resurrection remnant of Rev. 20:5.  They were a token amount, representing the expectation of the larger "wheat harvest" that would come later at Pentecost.

#2)  -  The Second Resurrection of the "whole house of Israel" fell exactly on this feast day in AD 70 at PENTECOST, according to the curiously precise 1,335th day in Dan. 12:11-13.  Daniel himself was promised a part in this event at the end of the 1,335 days.  (Proof for this date can be provided, if requested.)  The metaphoric "dry bones" vision of Ezekiel 37 had a double application for the "whole house of Israel" - one for the revival of the nation after Babylonian exile, and one for their actual physical resurrection in AD 70.  Those included in this resurrection were the just and the unjust / the wheat and the tares of Israel (Dan. 12:1-2, Isaiah 26:19-21, Acts 24:15, John 5:28-29).  Those NOT included in this resurrection were the "other lords" of Isaiah 26:13-14.  This would explain the current residents of Cairo's museum, and any other human remains dating before AD 70 that we may unearth today.  The 144 Thousand Firstfruits saints, (who had already been made alive, but had remained on the earth), followed the Second Resurrection saints when they arose to meet the Lord in the air together at this time.  The "rapture" promise belonged to them, not to us. 

#3)  -  The Third Resurrection event will complete the OT pattern.  This is the one at the end of human history in which we ourselves will participate.  The FEAST OF TABERNACLES was the largest of all - celebrating the in-gathering at the end of the year.  Multiple types of crops were included, which would mimic the multiple types of nations participating in this last, bodily resurrection.  Zechariah 14 mentions only this one particular feast as being significant after the prophesied AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem would have taken place.  That is because the other two required feasts of the OT would have become fulfilled types by that time, and wouldn't need to be mentioned.   


We have at least one verse - Rev. 10:4 - that gives us an indication that there is something left to be fulfilled after AD 70.  John was told to seal up what the seven thunders uttered, and "WRITE THEM NOT".  This would allow for everything WRITTEN in Revelation to be fulfilled, and still allow for the sealed, UNWRITTEN portion to be fulfilled after AD 70 - which would include times future to us.

Paul stated a clear connection in Col. 2:16 between the shadowy symbols of the holyday feasts, new moons, and sabbaths, and what was ABOUT TO COME in his day.  This provides justification  for the link between the 3 feasts and the 3 resurrections above. 

For another witness, James 5:7-8 also indicates a second AND a third coming of Christ.  "Be patient therefore brethren, till the coming of the Lord.  Behold, the husbandman (God) waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, (the dead bodies of His saints), and hath long patience for it, until it receive the early (Fall) AND latter (spring) rain.  Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh".  (For James and his audience, the Pentecost AD 70 resurrection at the time of the fall rain was fast approaching.)  Hosea 6:3 is a similar witness that mentions this second AND third coming of the Lord.  "Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: His going forth is prepared as the morning; and HE SHALL COME TO US as the rain, as the latter (spring) AND former (fall) rain unto the earth".

The failure of Partial and Full Preterism to address people's concerns on this question of the bodily resurrection has unfortunately hampered the ability of many to recognize the past fulfillment of Revelation's written prophecies.  I believe this paradigm as presented above is the only way that the elements of truth in each one of the systems of eschatology can be reconciled to each other.  It will NOT help with those who have pulled up their drawbridge and refuse to leave their castle.  But perhaps those who are sincerely bewildered as to how the truths of Preterism interlock with the truth of the bodily resurrection will find this beneficial. 



Offline raggthyme13

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #1 on: Mon Nov 09, 2015 - 03:03:26 »
Wow. It's been a long time since I read something so carefully thought out regarding Preterism and the bodily resurrection. How have you come to these conclusions? I have for awhile now leaned towards fulfilled eschatology but still the resurrection and the seven thunders in Revelation (which have remained a mystery) bothered me. Reconciling the two is no easy task but I think you may be onto something. Thanks for the post. I need to look into it.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #2 on: Mon Nov 09, 2015 - 06:35:07 »
raggthyme13  -  Much appreciation for your taking time to wade through all that.  I haven't yet mastered the art of brevity, but I'm working on it.  After glancing at what I wrote, I find I made one mistake that might cause confusion.  James and his audience were waiting for the  second SPRING rain resurrection at AD 70 Pentecost, not the fall one.  Apologies - my brain turns into a pumpkin if I post after midnight.

Offline RB

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #3 on: Mon Nov 09, 2015 - 16:30:13 »
Is anyone interested in a resolution to the divide between the different camps of eschatology where the resurrection is concerned?
When it comes to bible prophecy, I stay close and all most exclusively to the NT and allow the apostles to be my interpreters of such things. Why did you only used one NT scriptures for your position?

Jesus Christ had already come before Colossians 2, and the shadows of the Old Testament were already fulfilled in Him and His redemption of the church, well before 70 A.D. The Old Testament shadows had looked forward to what was coming for 1500 years, but the reality was already there when Paul wrote Colossians (II Cor 3:10-11; Heb 8:5; 9:1-12; 10:1; etc., etc., etc.).
 
When a person has to appeal to the Old Testament shadows of 3 feasts to prove or support 3 bodily/physical resurrections to occur in the New Testament, I know he has no basis for his position, because SHADOWS can never provide the details that the REALITY of the New Testament revelation gives us.
 
For the cause of God and truth, I remain a Pauline Christian~Red Baker

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #4 on: Mon Nov 09, 2015 - 21:14:44 »
RB  -  First of all, thank you for taking time to read this post.  I know by comments you have made to others that you are careful to completely read through their thoughts before you respond.  I hope you don't think that I have ignored the NT scriptures in order to arrive at this viewpoint.  I realize I only referred to a couple of NT sources here, but that is certainly not because the NT doesn't have any relation to this paradigm.  No one wants a dump-truck load of scripture to sift through in a single post, anyway.  Less is more, usually.

As for being a "Pauline Christian" - forgive me, brother Red, but not even Paul would have desired for you to classify yourself by that title.  "Is Christ divided?" he would have asked you.  I think I understand the point you are trying to make, though.  If this post appears to focus on the OT Mosaic law to the exclusion of a NT Christ, believe me, that is not my intent.  I am looking at the scriptures as a homogenous whole, rather than relegating the "shadows" to the back of the room.  The spirit of prophecy is ALL about the testimony of JESUS, and Him alone, as I'm sure you would agree.  (Rev. 19:10)  It doesn't matter which corner of the room you stand in - Christ is in the center of the room, regardless of which vantage point of scripture or history you are seeing Him from. 

I used to yawn my way through self-imposed readings of Psalm 119 where David launches into glowing language that elevates the law of God in every single verse.  It all seemed too boringly repetitious, and a little overrated.  But now?  My heart sings in agreement with David's every word.  I'm seeing pictures of Christ and his actions on my behalf through every bit of the law and its ceremonies, from the foundation stone and the 2 pillars of the temple, to the consecration services for the priesthood, the peculiar perfume compounded for the anointing oil, the locations where the blood was sprinkled or poured - even to the symbolism of the entrance gates to the temple.  It all speaks of Christ's actions, whether already fulfilled, being fulfilled, or those to be fulfilled eventually.  My trust in a predestinating God that could design such perfect symbolism beforehand has grown exponentially, as I have tried to see where these match up with His intended fulfillment for them all, from creation to the end of human history.  At this point, it feels very much like finally making it to the top of a mountain ridge after a long hike, and seeing the view below spread out to the horizon in every direction.  Such beauty, and such perfection in every detail.

I have found the book of Revelation so replete with Old Testament allusions, that I would be crippled in my understanding of John's work if I didn't have a growing understanding of  the OT symbols to compare it to.  I guess what I'm trying to say is this, "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."  (Romans 15:4)

 I'm feeling more hopeful every day.

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #4 on: Mon Nov 09, 2015 - 21:14:44 »



Offline raggthyme13

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #5 on: Mon Nov 09, 2015 - 22:12:16 »
So 3, if I may call you that for short? Would you then call yourself a partial preterist? How much do you believe is already fulfilled and what is left? Did you read a book that sparked your interest in studying the OT types and shadows with such enthusiasm or did you just wake up one day and see it? You truly have me intrigued.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #6 on: Tue Nov 10, 2015 - 00:16:45 »
raggthyme13  -  Sure, call me 3 if you like - it's a good nickname.  I don't really fit into any one classification, to be frank.  I've been called a futurist by the full-preterist team ; I've been called a full-preterist by those who are futurist, and I've been called simply "bizarre" by partial-preterists.  Those who sit in the middle of the drawbridge tend to get shot from all sides.  That's okay.  I've got a bullet-proof vest on.

Three or more years ago a young inspirational speaker my daughter knew came for a visit and asked me if I had ever read any of Josephus' works, since she had been dipping into history a little bit.  That jogged my brain in that direction once more, enough to go online and "accidentally"discover Gentry's book for sale titled "Before Jerusalem Fell".  With somewhat of a "panmillennialist" mindset, and a generous dollop of pre-mil disp. training from my distant youth sitting on top of that, I devoured that dissertation, and underlined heavily throughout those pages.   Preterist forum research followed.  I soon came to that fork in the road where the dilemma of just how the body's physical resurrection figured in all of this was sitting squarely in the way, blocking the path in all directions.  I couldn't deny the physical resurrection truth on clear display with Christ's own body for our example,  but neither could I dispense with the absolute certain proof of testimony from ALL the NT writings that a resurrection had already taken place for that first-century generation.  And what to do with those pesky things called mummies that are still lying around?  How in the world did they fit into this whole picture as well, if a resurrection had already happened in AD 70? 

I am not one that can endure it when I can't understand something.  By that time, it felt as if I had a death grip on God's ankles, like Jacob, telling Him, "I WILL NOT LET YOU GO UNLESS YOU BLESS ME!"  It came to a point one night, out walking the Black Lab in the dark, when I literally held my hands up to the sky and told God that I didn't understand how He fit all these different truths together - but that I would believe them all, and trust Him to tell me, in His time, how these seemingly opposite things were able to mesh with one another.  It was a surrender.  I was willing to open my hands and empty them of everything I had ever been taught, if it did not agree with what the scripture in front of me and the Spirit inside was telling me.  "Prove all things, hold fast that which is good", is my theme these days.

"Keep reading", was the advice our senior church leader had told me, and I did just that.  A Jewish friend gave me a handbook on the Feasts of the Lord, and I combined this with a sermon series on these Feasts by Pastor Curtis on his church website.  Many, many walks with that same Black Lab followed, while mulling these things over and chewing on them.  The business workroom orders languished on the table, while I wrestled and read for days and months on end.  The KJV and ESV was propped up beside me, with the Interlinear laid out flat in front.  Septuagint on the other side, and Ussher's Annals of the World, Eusebius and Josephus nearby.  Greek dictionary and grammar at the ready, for reference.  It was rather like the wilderness wanderings of the Exodus, when bits and pieces started falling together, like manna on a daily basis.  I am not exaggerating when I say that every day there would be a verse where a word or phrase would literally jump off the page at me, and I would KNOW instantly, without a doubt, what it meant.  Most of the time, it was contrary to anything I had ever been taught.  I know -  such presumption.  I have been told that to go against the flow of established church understanding is a sure sign of personal pride.  I understand the kind intent behind such cautionary statements, and do not resent the one giving me the warning.   By now my journal can hardly be closed, there are so many post-it notes in it with new pieces of insight and the related verses, but no time to develop them into written journal entries.  I can testify to the truth that God's promise is very real - that if you seek Him, you will find Him, if you seek for Him with all your heart.  I can feel His face turned towards mine, and I never want to leave His feet.

As long as GCF has patience with allowing these rather different views to be offered, I will try to post new subjects here as regularly as I can, so that those few who are interested can see that this rather strange way of presenting eschatology truly does have a perfect-fitting, scriptural answer for some of those really "hard core" questions that eschatology throws at us.   The puzzle pieces cannot be forced into place.  If they do not fall into position with a little tap of the finger, then something is wrong somewhere.  And the puzzle manufacturer had a fabulous picture in mind when He started.

Offline raggthyme13

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #7 on: Thu Nov 12, 2015 - 02:33:57 »
I think you really touched on something.. "if you seek Him with all your heart" is something that I have always gone back to. Sitting under a pastor and accepting everything he says without question is not seeking God with your whole heart. I find it to be a rather lazy way to go. I did that for awhile. I put man in the place of God who wants desperately to speak into our heart. He can do it through man, but no man has the whole truth! Then there was a time in my life when I really dug in deep, as you described. I dared to question what I was taught in my particular denomination (which is frowned upon I suppose) but that's when I started to see the biblical basis for preterism, partial at least. But lately I feel a lack of time and drive, it's a season that will pass, I'm sure. I am convinced that the more you sit before the Lord and ask him to open his word to you, the more you will discover things you have never heard or even read about (besides in the Bible). Thank you for taking the time to answer.
« Last Edit: Thu Nov 12, 2015 - 17:54:41 by raggthyme13 »

Offline PeteWaldo

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #8 on: Fri Nov 13, 2015 - 09:01:25 »
I think you really touched on something.. "if you seek Him with all your heart" is something that I have always gone back to. Sitting under a pastor and accepting everything he says without question is not seeking God with your whole heart. I find it to be a rather lazy way to go. I did that for awhile. I put man in the place of God who wants desperately to speak into our heart. He can do it through man, but no man has the whole truth! Then there was a time in my life when I really dug in deep, as you described. I dared to question what I was taught in my particular denomination (which is frowned upon I suppose) but that's when I started to see the biblical basis for preterism, partial at least. But lately I feel a lack of time and drive, it's a season that will pass, I'm sure.

There may be a reason for it. While you seem familiar with the approaches of futurism and preterism how much time have you spent exploring NT prophecy within the traditional historicist approach, through which all Christians and Jews recognize OT prophecy was fulfilled, and as available evidence suggests was the approach of the church for its first 1800 years?
Web search - traditional historicism
Also through which a bull's eye is painted on Muhammad's back as the false prophet of the book of Revelation, and his Islamic kingdom "beast" the final foe of God's people. I posted a little on that subject in the "End Times" forum.

I am convinced that the more you sit before the Lord and ask him to open his word to you, the more you will discover things you have never heard or even read about (besides in the Bible). Thank you for taking the time to answer.
« Last Edit: Fri Nov 13, 2015 - 15:41:00 by PeteWaldo »

Offline raggthyme13

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #9 on: Fri Nov 13, 2015 - 16:38:17 »
I have not researched this, I should. Thank you for the suggestion.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #10 on: Fri Nov 13, 2015 - 17:14:06 »
PeteWaldo  -  I appreciate anyone who has taken the time to read this post, whether in agreement or not.  Yes, a close family member ascribes to the traditional historicist approach, and the bookshelves in my home's study are awash in Puritan perspective that comes from this viewpoint.  However, I would NOT say that this was the UNIVERSAL approach from early Christianity forward.

You yourself may not be interested in pursuing this suggestion, but for anyone else, there is a 2012 book by Francis X. Gumerlock, a Latin scholar and historical theologian, titled "Revelation and the First Century - Preterist interpretations of the Apocalypse in early Christianity".  As you can tell by the name, this book offers substantial evidence of preteristic belief from the early days of the church and onward.  In other words, Preterism was around before there was a modern-day label to apply to it.

As far as my attitude toward traditional teaching of the church goes, I do not despise these early divines who labored so intently to pass their wisdom and knowledge, as best they understood it, to the later generations.  I am standing on their shoulders as I type these posts from a different perspective, and well I know it.  But honestly, do you think these gentlemen from earlier centuries would really resent it if the children of the faith that followed them discovered new insights that proved them to be in error?  Do we ourselves resent it if our children succeed in  life, better than we were able to do?  Is that not the purpose of parenthood, for "parents to lay up for the children"?  Isn't "the path of the just as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day"?  This is step-by-step "GROWING in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ".  It is the "Berean" principle at work.

The trouble with trying to fit Islam or the papacy inside the bookends of Revelation's self-imposed time limitations is that the language of imminence and near-fulfillment to that first century must be swept under the rug and totally ignored.   This same imminent language is in every book in the NT, with the exception of Philemon, and perhaps one other epistle. To ignore it is to turn Revelation into a fill-in-the-blank exercise, using your favorite antichrist personality of choice. 

Revelation is not a buffet where I can pick and choose what I want to eat.

Offline PeteWaldo

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #11 on: Sat Nov 14, 2015 - 06:08:43 »
PeteWaldo  -  I appreciate anyone who has taken the time to read this post, whether in agreement or not.  Yes, a close family member ascribes to the traditional historicist approach, ......


If you had been, please don't confuse my use of this traditional approach, with some modern day Roman church demonizing, abuse of it, as well as abuse of the day-year "language" of prophecy.

...... and the bookshelves in my home's study are awash in Puritan perspective that comes from this viewpoint.


It would be a shame if you had only exposed yourself to the Reformers and Puritans application of this uniform approach to all Bible prophecy, particularly since I don't believe we had yet entered what Daniel's prophecy refers to as the "time of the end". However I do believe we have indeed entered that time, as mathematical confirmation would seem to support.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/'a-time-times-and-an-half'-and-the-'time-of-the-end'/

However, I would NOT say that this was the UNIVERSAL approach from early Christianity forward.


The available evidence suggests it was the dominant approach throughout the first 1800-1900 years of the Christian era. Would it really be such a surprise to find that the church took a uniform approach to all Bible prophecy?
The only time I recall applying the term "universal" was in regard to universal Christian core doctrine regarding the resurrection of the dead and the 2nd Coming of Christ as being yet unfulfilled, when I directed it toward preterists that proclaim the resurrection of the dead is past already, that scripture informs us will eat at the body of Christ as gangrene and overthrow the faith of some. Your OP does not suggest you are in that full or "hyper" preterist camp.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/full-preterism-on-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/

You yourself may not be interested in pursuing this suggestion, but for anyone else, there is a 2012 book by Francis X. Gumerlock, a Latin scholar and historical theologian, titled "Revelation and the First Century - Preterist interpretations of the Apocalypse in early Christianity".


Liberal university bred supersessionists are a dime a dozen. I recommend Christians first begin by comparing the fruit of the Zionist tree, to that of the anti-Zionist tree. That is groups that believe that the restoration of Jews to their land is of the Lord along with others that support the democracy of the Israeli Jewish State. As compared to Christian groups that believe God was done with any further plan for Jews - indeed when pressed will often admit they believe the restoration of Jews to their land is of Satan - along with others who fruit the anti-Zionist tree.

Then try to discern the differences between institutional churches in the two camps, regarding how they treat church ordinances, what kind of people they ordain, and where their focus is.
Is it a mere coincidence that the Washington National Cathedral hosts Islamic worship services during this prophesied "falling away" while Presbyterian church leaders ".....treasure the precious words of Hezbollah and your expression of goodwill toward the American people."? Those Presbyterian church "leaders" also being liberal university indoctrinated-now-teaching supersessionists.

Let alone proposing boycotts of Israel and their exports, while giving a free pass to Israel's neighbors who murder their own citizens for "apostasy" (leaving Islam) and even for the "crime" of "blasphemy" by State statute. All the while those supersessionist institutions that propose the boycotts insist it has nothing at all to do with antisemitism.

As you can tell by the name, this book offers substantial evidence of preteristic belief from the early days of the church and onward.  In other words, Preterism was around before there was a modern-day label to apply to it.


The ECFs alluded to futurism as well. That didn't make it the dominant view of the church over its first 1800 years either. We can also find the germ of Marianism in the ECFs.

As far as my attitude toward traditional teaching of the church goes, I do not despise these early divines who labored so intently to pass their wisdom and knowledge, as best they understood it, to the later generations.  I am standing on their shoulders as I type these posts from a different perspective, and well I know it.


While I am standing on the shoulders of those great men of God of the Reformation, in their all-but-forgotten approach, who rescued the ecclesia from the dead formalism of the institutional church.

But honestly, do you think these gentlemen from earlier centuries would really resent it if the children of the faith that followed them discovered new insights that proved them to be in error?


Since I don't believe we fully entered into what Daniel's prophecy refers to as the "time of the end", or that the "times of the gentiles" in Jerusalem were fulfilled, until 1967 when Jews regained control, I obviously don't think they would resent it. Web search - mathematical precision of prophecy
I would suggest that your view is the one most lacking in "new insights". Particularly since it most likely prevents you from progressing in history beyond the early 19th century, when the prophecies that regard the restoration of Jews to their land, began to be fulfilled.

Do we ourselves resent it if our children succeed in  life, better than we were able to do?


I resent that the eschatologies popularized in the 20th century have contributed to blinding them to truth, while so many parents teach their children that Islam is just another Abrahamic religion, (as they are taught even by some "churches"), which misguides their children's paths in regard to the world in which they wish to succeed.

Is that not the purpose of parenthood, for "parents to lay up for the children"?


So how many parents are teaching their children that 1.5 billion people in the world today - that is 1/4 of mankind - must deny and blaspheme the Son of God, and reject His crucifixion and thus the saving grace of His shed blood, as articles of their faith in THE false prophet Muhammad alone? Don't you think that might help our kids understand why Muhammad's orthodox followers are slaughtering and persecuting God's people all around the world, and that they began it about 1400 years ago?
But parents don't teach that do they. Because their churches don't teach that do they. Does the university trained supersessionist, that you recommend reading, mention even a peep about it? Indeed probably not one in 1000 Christians is even aware of it, I would suggest, because the church was blinded by the 20th century popularized eschatologies of preterism and futurism as to what the prophesied "beast" of Revelation 13 and final foe of God's people is all about.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/the-beast-revelation/msg1054999136/#msg1054999136

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4  And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Isn't "the path of the just as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day"?  This is step-by-step "GROWING in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ".  It is the "Berean" principle at work.


Would clutching a doctrine with both fists while pouring forth unctuous platitudes about a "Berean principle" really qualify as such? Why don't you try setting aside your doctrine for a moment - put that inverted pyramid of pile-on presumption completely out of your mind - long enough to explore this third entire approach to prophecy as revealed in this "time of the end" now that Daniel's book has been unsealed through fulfillment of prophecy, by exploring one brick by brick empirical argument that suggests that unsealing. Try reading The False Prophet by Ellis Skolfield. It's available free online. But if you are going to try to wring each chapter through the filter of your preconceived preterist notions, as you proceed through this entire approach to prophecy, you may as well not even begin.
Since Jesus IS truth, I believe the best way we can serve Him is to make every effort to seek out the truth regardless of how contrary it may seem to what we have been taught, rather than obstinately clinging to a doctrine we have been taught that we ourselves recognize is full of warts.

The trouble with trying to fit Islam or the papacy inside the bookends of Revelation's self-imposed time limitations is that the language of imminence and near-fulfillment to that first century must be swept under the rug and totally ignored.


We would agree on many of the verses to which you allude as regards the kingdom of Jesus Christ, since I am amillennial, as available evidence also suggests was the dominant millennial view of the church for the first 1800 years.
I'm not unfamiliar with the touchstones of preterism, but scripture wasn't written in English. So for example the Greek word "houtos" translated as "this" that preterists like to stick futurists in the eye with, for some reason at the same time fail to inform them, that it is also translated as "the same" on 28 other occasions in the KJV. Let alone their so often "sweeping under the rug" metaphorical use of the term "generation", to pound on Jews, in their efforts to advance replacement theology.

This same imminent language is in every book in the NT, with the exception of Philemon, and perhaps one other epistle. To ignore it is to turn Revelation into a fill-in-the-blank exercise, using your favorite antichrist personality of choice.


Are you suggesting that preterists don't often fill in that blank with Nero? What is your favored choice if you believe it to be fulfilled?
If you were accusing me of that, while I understand there has been no shortage of what you describe ever since the ECFs, I don't believe that any of the 4 verses that contain the term support an individual at all but rather a spirit and any and every individual or spirit that exhibits it.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/who-is-the-antichrist-our-father-does-not-leave-us-guessing!/msg1054999222/#msg1054999222

Revelation is not a buffet where I can pick and choose what I want to eat.


I couldn't agree more. So please explain what/who you believe the "beast" of Revelation 13 is/was, and what it/he has to do with a leopard, bear and lion?
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/the-beast-revelation/msg1054999136/#msg1054999136
« Last Edit: Sat Nov 14, 2015 - 10:28:39 by PeteWaldo »

Offline PeteWaldo

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #12 on: Sat Nov 14, 2015 - 06:30:49 »
I have not researched this, I should. Thank you for the suggestion.

I recommend investigating, and then deciding on the reasonableness, of one brick by brick empirical argument within the traditional historicist approach as detailed in "The False Prophet" by Ellis Skolfield which is available absolutely free online.
« Last Edit: Sat Nov 14, 2015 - 09:57:24 by PeteWaldo »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #13 on: Thu Nov 19, 2015 - 23:10:23 »
PeteWaldo  -  Apologies for not responding sooner.  A family member has been hospitalized in the CCU in the interim.  You have touched on more bases than I should probably comment on with this post's line of thought.  As a new member, I haven't yet become  familiar with the background and perspective of each of the other members, including yourself.  That familiarity will come in time.

Eventually, I hope to have time to engage in a discussion concerning some of the themes you have mentioned, but, to avoid clutter, I will try to do so in other posts that have already been originated with those themes here on this board.

(By the way, your request for a "beast" identity didn't specify which one you were referring to in Rev. 13 - the land or the sea beast - and I do not regard either of these 2 beasts as being the same thing as the antichrist/antichrists or the Man of Lawlessness.)   


Offline RB

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #14 on: Sun Nov 22, 2015 - 05:08:30 »
The trouble with trying to fit Islam or the papacy inside the bookends of Revelation's self-imposed time limitations is that the language of imminence and near-fulfillment to that first century must be swept under the rug and totally ignored.   This same imminent language is in every book in the NT, with the exception of Philemon, and perhaps one other epistle. To ignore it is to turn Revelation into a fill-in-the-blank exercise, using your favorite antichrist personality of choice. 
I will not say much keeping from hijacking this thread from its original desired purpose of discussing three resurrections theory. Trying to fit any form of eschatological doctrine  into the Revelation of Jesus Christ, that is unsupported by Christ, and his apostles from their writings, and teachings must be rejected, per Jesus~Matthew 24:4; and per Paul~2nd Thessalonians 2:3
Quote
Revelation's self-imposed time limitations is that the language of imminence and near-fulfillment to that first century must be swept under the rug and totally ignored. 
The time limitations are not self imposed by John, but by men like you, who have been led astray from the truth by men who refuse to allow the scriptures to interpret themselves for believers, instead they trust more looking out side of the word of God, trusting in "extra-biblical" information to fill in hidden truths, which are hidden within the scriptures, not in history books! A wise student of the word of God, will compare scriptures with scriptures, not history with scriptures. History at best, is corrupted with errors, with some truth, maybe.
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Revelation's self-imposed time limitations
There are none, just you and others are not following the scriptures and trust THEM to yield its truths to you. Example of one that you would used to prove your point, I'll go ahead and do so for you.
Quote
Revelation 1:1~"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
This is one of "Revelation's self-imposed time limitations is that the language of imminence and near-fulfillment to that first century must be swept under the rug and totally ignored." No true seeker of God's truth would ever sweep any precious scripture under the rug, but would seek mercies of the God of heaven just as Daniel and his two friends did in Daniel 2:18, concerning Nebuchaadnezzar's dream. What is said in Revelation 1:1 is almost quoted verbatim in the end of Revelation.
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Revelation 22:6,7~"And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Again you said:
Quote
Revelation's self-imposed time limitations is that the language of imminence and near-fulfillment to that first century
WHY do you think that it all had to be fulfilled in that first century? ALL that is written from Revelation 1:1 to 22:6,7!  INCLUDING the Great White Throne Judgment? Including the destruction of Satan, evils spirits, and all the wicked? So, your self imposed first century time limit is against God's words. God using the words "must shortly be done" are given for our benefit, of revealing to us, that all that is written from Revelation 1:1 to Revelation 22:6,7~will come to past quickly as we think of TIME, not as God measures time. Truly, what's two thousands years? Not much. A hundred years is quicker that a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. Peter said:
Quote
We would agree on many of the verses to which you allude as regards the kingdom of Jesus Christ, since I am amillennial, as available evidence also suggests was the dominant millennial view of the church for the first 1800 years.
Peter is correct in that the church overall were Amillennialist from the beginning, as were all the Reformers. My Amill position can be traced at least back to Augustine, (outside of the apostles) who was a Amill "idealist" just as I understand the scriptures....two hundred years before the false prophet Muhammad.
« Last Edit: Sun Nov 22, 2015 - 07:11:27 by RB »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #15 on: Mon Nov 23, 2015 - 01:12:43 »
RB  -  You are confusing me.

 It is curious that you are dismissive of any use whatever of historical records to match up with the fulfillment of scripture prophecy, yet you are more than willing to search through records of early church history to lend support and validity to your Amil position.  I'm having difficulty understanding the contradiction.

To address one of your concerns - that this paradigm in your view has no relation  to Christ's or the apostles' teachings:  although you did not agree with my point, I have already covered Christ's words in John 5:25-29 with you before on another board and showed how Christ spoke on that occasion about the first 2 resurrection events - the first one being that of the Matt 27:52-53 saints, and the second one being the "hour (that) is coming when ALL that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth...."  Christ was speaking to the JEWS on this occasion (John 5:16,18,19), and His words were describing the AD 70 resurrection that would include them among the WHOLE house of Israel - not only those who had done good, (as in the Matt 27 saints-only event), but also those of them who had done evil.  Every one of them.

Paul's words to Felix in Acts 24:15 and 25 describe this same AD 70 resurrection ABOUT TO COME that would include just and unjust participants.  Again, Paul was describing a resurrection in which the Jews - at least the Pharisees - were hoping to participate (Acts 23:6, 24:15).  And just where did this hope for an Israelite resurrection originate?

This AD 70 resurrection of the whole house of Israel was first prophesied by Jacob in Genesis 49:10, "...and unto Him shall the gathering of THE PEOPLE be."  (This term, "the people", is used many times to refer to the children of Abraham.)  It is the same "gathering" that Paul refers to in the II Thess 2:1 verse, "We beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him..."  This "coming" and "gathering" are presented in this verse as concurrent events.  And I most definitely read this passage in II Thess 2 as an ongoing situation to Paul's readers when the "rebellion"/falling away would occur as the wars of the Jews with Rome accelerated.

I Peter 4:5-7 speaks of the end of all things being at hand in his day, and of a God, who at that time was "ready" (already prepared) to judge the quick and the dead.  The dead of the whole house of Israel were to be resurrected and judged, and the quick/alive were to be left in judgment to suffer the torments of the siege of Jerusalem from Pentecost  in AD 70 to the final burning of the city and the temple some five months later.

Daniel 12:1-2 speaks of this resurrection of "THY PEOPLE" (Daniel's people) with an awaking to life for some, and an awaking to shame for others.  And it would occur at the time of the great tribulation for "THY PEOPLE", greater than any that had ever happened to them since they became a nation. 

Daniel himself was promised a participation in this AD 70 resurrection at the end of the 1335th day in Dan. 12:12-13.  To "stand in thy lot" was a catchphrase that every Israelite was familiar with.  It harked back to the beginning of themselves as a nation when the promised inheritance in the land of Canaan was divided by lot among the 12 tribes.  The physical inheritance in the land of Canaan was but a shadow of the true inheritance of a perfected, resurrected body that could stand in the presence of God their creator in the heavenly land of Canaan.  And just as God had once required the Israelites to allow the stranger who took hold of the covenant to share in the land of Canaan inheritance with the children of Israel, in the same way God always had intentions of including strangers also in the house of Israel resurrection who were "children of faith with faithful Abraham". 

I could lay out proof that this 1335th day in Dan. 12:12 falls on Pentecost in AD 70, but if one completely dismisses the historical records we have, and regards the use of Greek or the Septuagint as a corruption of God's words, my points would fall on deaf ears.  We would simply have to agree to disagree.  It is not necessary for a speaker or writer to be a child of God for us to be able to use their material.  Try Balaam, the prophet hostile to Israel for one example.  Consider the words coming from the mouth of Balaam's ass.  Likewise Caiphas, who uttered absolutely truthful prophesy, even as he thought he was speaking to condemn Christ.  God is capable of using pagan historians for his glory, since He can make even the wrath of man to praise Him. 

As far as the issue of time limitations on Rev. is concerned, RB, perhaps you would let me know if you were able to consider my comment on some of the internal evidence for dating Rev. before AD 70.  In one of the most recent posts on this Preterist forum, I compared the cult of Balaam in II Peter 2 with the same cult in Rev. 2 as more evidence of an early date for Revelation.

No, I do not believe that ALL prophesy, without a single exception, was fulfilled before the end of AD 70's events.  The ONLY verse which prevents me from saying that, though, is Rev. 10:4, and the prophesy that the 7 thunders uttered.  As I have already stated,all things that were WRITTEN by way of prophesy were fulfilled, but what John left UNWRITTEN was NOT fulfilled.   It is the lone exception that Revelation seals up for later fulfillment in times future to AD 70.

And yes, it is possible to prove from both OT and NT scripture that Satanic evil and unclean spirits have been eradicated from this earth subsequent to AD 70.  Likewise the GWT Judgment - the burden of proof is on you and others, RB, to provide scripture evidence that God has said that there will ONLY be ONE - never a second one.  Why is it so improbable that God would stage 2 of these judgments for mankind?  One to close out His Old Covenant dealings  in AD 70, and one to close out His New Covenant dealings?  Didn't Jacob, the shepherd and type of Christ, have 2 wives, Rachel and Leah?  Rachel would correspond to the originally-chosen wife, (the Hebrew nation), and Leah would correspond to the originally-rejected Gentile nations.  Rachel would die earlier in childbirth, but Leah, the one originally not chosen, would be blessed to produce the majority of Jacob's children. 

And yes, it is also possible to prove from both OT and NT scriptures a literal thousand-year millennium that ENDS at Christ's ascension in AD 33.

But all these odd points are better served in another post, as I have already included far too much material here for one comment, and have probably wearied you with it. 







Offline RB

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #16 on: Mon Nov 23, 2015 - 04:47:16 »
RB  -  You are confusing me.
You are doing a good job of confusing yourself, you surely do not need my help.
Quote
It is curious that you are dismissive of any use whatever of historical records to match up with the fulfillment of scripture prophecy, yet you are more than willing to search through records of early church history to lend support and validity to your Amil position.  I'm having difficulty understanding the contradiction.
Two totally different animals. I really do not search church history, other than, choosing to read behind worthy men such as Augustine's City of God and his confessions, other than that, very little.  Yes I have read many quotes from the early so-called church fathers, just enough to know that reading them would be fruitless and not a wise use of my time.  But, what we are speaking about is not one and same thing. I DO NOT look outside of the scriptures to guide/instruct my understanding of its hidden truths that are hidden WITHIN God's word, which men like you must do, in order to convince yourself and others, of the possibility of what holy men of God meant in their dark sayings, using highly symbolical language.  So, if you are truly confused concerning this, I trust that you are no longer so concerning my method of coming to the knowledge of the truth. I cannot even address you by your name, since you refuse to tell me, I kinda see why you are keeping it a secret. But God's knows does he not? So, WHO cares what others may think, if we truly believe we are in the truth, I do not.  I am only concern of pleasing ONE BEING, not flesh and blood. Oh well, allow me to read the rest of your post again before commenting. By the way, my wife said she knows who you are, even though I am not totally sure. 
« Last Edit: Mon Nov 23, 2015 - 04:50:00 by RB »

Offline PeteWaldo

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #17 on: Sat Jan 09, 2016 - 06:18:46 »
My Amill position can be traced at least back to Augustine, (outside of the apostles) who was a Amill "idealist".....

You are the only Idealist I have ever run into. Could you please detail how your amillennial Idealist approach differs from the amillennial historicist approach?
On the latter here's an example from Wikipedia:

"Historicism is a method of interpretation in Christian eschatology which attempts to associate biblical prophecies with actual historical events and identify symbolic beings with historical persons or societies. The Historicist school of prophetic interpretation results in a progressive and continuous fulfillment of prophecy....."
"The main texts of interest are apocalyptic literature, such as the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation, and historicist methods have been applied to ancient Jewish history, the Roman Empire, Mohammedism, the Papacy, the Modern era and even into the End time."

In regard to the Christian eschatology of Idealism from Wikipedia:

"It is distinct from Preterism, Futurism and Historicism in that it does not see any of the prophecies (except in some cases the Second Coming, and Final Judgment) as being fulfilled in a literal, physical, earthly sense either in the past, present or future,[10] and that to interpret the eschatological portions of the Bible in a historical or future-historical fashion is an erroneous understanding.[11]"

Is that about the size of it by your understanding?
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 09, 2016 - 09:04:34 by PeteWaldo »

Offline grandcentralstation

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #18 on: Wed Dec 27, 2017 - 09:48:08 »
3 Resurrections stated: The Second Resurrection of the "whole house of Israel" fell exactly on this feast day in AD 70 at PENTECOST, according to the curiously precise 1,335th day in Dan. 12:11-13.  Daniel himself was promised a part in this event at the end of the 1,335 days.  (Proof for this date can be provided, if requested.)

Actually I would like to see the proof that the 1335th day fell on Pentecost 70AD. I tried counting these days from July 17th 66AD but it doesn't seem to bring the end of 1335 days to early June 70AD.

Btw, Merry Christmas to you and your family. Wishing you the best for the new year.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #19 on: Mon Jan 15, 2018 - 03:13:28 »
grandcentralstation  -  I'm sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this, but it was unavoidable.  Wishing a blessed beginning for 2018 for you and yours also. 

Actually, I touched on this subject of the 1335th day briefly in someone else's recent post called "Three Days of Darkness - Dec. 27-29, AD 2018", so I'll repeat some of those remarks here and expand on them.

If you are willing to consider historical sources as well as Daniel 12:11-13 in the LXX, I use both of those resources where they align with Daniel's discussion of the 1335th day in the KJV.  As stated in my post above, I am absolutely convinced that Christ's physical return to earth on the Mount of Olives for the resurrection at His second coming took place on this 1335th day.  I believe that this 1335th day fell on the exact day in AD 70 when Pentecost would have been celebrated in Jerusalem. 

The following are preliminary points that are the foundation for this line of reasoning.

#1)  The resurrection in Daniel 12:2 (which the Daniel 12:13 text alludes to) is one in which physically dead bodies in the dust of the grave will "arise" (Daniel 12:2 LXX) from the dust of that grave.  God does not discard the physical bodies of His dead saints which are His blood-purchased property (I Cor. 6:19-20), not even if their dust has been scattered by the winds or has passed into the food chain.  If Christ promised that not a hair on the saints' heads would perish, even if they died (Luke 21:16-18), He is as good as His word.

#2)  According to Daniel 12:13, Daniel was to share in this inheritance of a physical resurrection to eternal life, which he would receive at "the time of the end" (Daniel 12:9).  We know from reading I Peter 4:7 that this "end of all things" was "at hand" in Peter's days. 

#3)  The "abomination that maketh desolate" in Daniel 12:11 is defined for us in scripture by comparing Mark 13:14 with Luke 21:20.  This abomination is "Jerusalem compassed with armies", which, after seeing these armies encircling Jerusalem, those who were wise would flee from Judaea to the mountains.  They were to avoid entering Judaea or Jerusalem to celebrate any of the three festivals which in former times had required attendance in the Old Testament: i.e., Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles (Deut. 16:16).  Jesus had warned the Jewish believers ahead of time, that exercising this Old Testament habit as a Christian liberty would have dire consequences after these armies had showed up and surrounded Jerusalem.

#4)  There are a couple possible meanings for the "daily sacrifice" or "the perpetual sacrifice" in Daniel 12:11.  First, it could be the Levitical sacrifice of the lamb being sacrificed morning and evening, every day, as in Exodus 29:38-39.  Second, Judaea had made an agreement with Rome to make a DAILY TEMPLE SACRIFICE offered with prayers for the prosperity of the empire of Rome and the well-being of the emperor, in exchange for being considered a "religio licita" - a state-sanctioned religion with a degree of autonomy and religious liberty to practice their laws without restriction.  This second DAILY SACRIFICE FOR ROME is what I believe Daniel 12:11 refers to; NOT the Levitical sacrifice of the lamb offered twice daily.

Here is how Daniel 12:11-12 reads in the KJV: "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."  This is an acceptable rendering of the text, but it doesn't quite give us the clarity that the LXX version does.

Here are the same verses in the LXX:  "And from the time of the removal / change of the perpetual sacrifice, WHEN the abomination of desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.  Blessed is he that waits and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days."

These two versions sound similar, but there is a notable difference between them.  Most who read Daniel 12:11-12 in the KJV presume (as I also did) that there is a period of 1290 days BETWEEN the "daily sacrifice" being taken away and afterward when the "abomination of desolation" is set up.  This is wrong.  There is NO 1290 day period between.  These two things were to happen together during the SAME SEASON OF TIME".  From "THE TIME" (Kairos - meaning a particular season of time) "of the removal / change of the perpetual sacrifice WHEN the abomination of desolation shall be set up" (during the same particular season) "there shall be 1290 days."

So, we look for one particular time that matches these paired events in first-century Jerusalem's history, sometime before its destruction, when SIMULTANEOUSLY  there were armies surrounding the city during a SEASON when a daily sacrifice had also just been taken away.  This was when Cestius Gallus, that inept Roman general, came with the 12th legion and surrounded Jerusalem on OCTOBER 4, AD 66.  This attack was in response to the actions of Eleazar, the temple governor who had convinced the priesthood to CEASE OFFERING THE DAILY SACRIFICE FOR ROME AND THE EMPEROR just a bit earlier in August of AD 66 ( Wars 2.17.2).

This abandonment of Judaea's promise to Rome was an unmistakable act of rebellion, coupled with attacks on Rome-held Masada and the Antonia fortress in Jerusalem which garrisoned the Roman troops (Wars 2.17.2-408, 2.17.7).  This was the breakout of the major Zealot rebellion - the "apostasia" of II Thess 2:3 that started the Roman / Jewish war., according to Josephus.  Paul told the Thessalonians that this "apostasia" would precede the Lord's return at a time when the single "Man of Lawlessness" would also appear in the temple claiming to be the Messiah, the King of the Jews.  This was fulfilled by the Zealot called Menahem, a point I have covered in the post called "The Man of Lawlessness was a First-Century Zealot". 

From this October 4, AD 66 date of Jerusalem being surrounded by Cestius Gallus' 12th legion (according to Ussher's date for this in his "Annals of the World"), we count forward 1290 days, as Daniel 12:11 tells us to do.  This 1290th day falls just 5 days into Passover week in AD 70, when Titus with his armies arrived at the gates of Jerusalem.  During all this 1290 days, (or 42 months - as in Revelation 11:2), Rome had been absent from the scene at Jerusalem, which was in the process of being "trodden down by the Gentiles" in the meantime (Luke 21:24 and Zechariah 12:2-3 LXX).  These "Gentiles" (ethnos - nations) came from "Galilee of the GENTILES" (Matthew 4:15), which had developed into a hot-bed of Zealot activity ever since Judas the Galilean had first stirred up a rebellion against the Roman tax in Acts 5:37.   It was CIVIL STRIFE that Jerusalem was tormented with in those days, until the "TIMES (plural) of the Gentiles were fulfilled" (This is the stipulated TIME, TIMES, AND 1/2 A TIME of Daniel 12:6-7, until the power of Daniel's holy people was shattered.) 

At the end of this 1290 days / 42 months / time, times, and 1/2 a time, Rome showed up again at Jerusalem in the person of Titus.  Titus deliberately timed his arrival with his Roman armies at Jerusalem to trap as many Passover-celebrating Jews as possible within the city's walls.  This is why Christ warned the believers ahead of time to flee Judaea altogether when Jerusalem was first surrounded by armies (back on October 4, AD 66 when Cestius Gallus had first surrounded the city - and then unexplainably retreated for no reason whatever with the Jews giving chase.  This withdrawal from Jerusalem of Cestius Gallus and his 12th legion freed up a couple of precious days for the saints to heed Christ's warning and to flee the city - and just before the winter rains set in, too - Matthew 24:20).

Next, Daniel 12:12 tells us that those who waited from the 1290th day (which was 5 days into Passover week in AD 70) until the 1335th day came would be BLESSED.  There are 45 days between 1290 and 1335 - just time enough for the calendar to finish counting down until Pentecost on the 50th day had fully come ( 45 plus 5 days) which I believe ended on May 31st of AD 70.  Daniel was one of those who waited until the end of those 1335 days.  This "greatly-beloved" prophet was blessed to "stand in his lot" with the inheritance of a physically-resurrected body on that day.  This was the day of the "rapture" of I Thessalonians 4, when we are told that all the righteous RESURRECTED saints that had been asleep in Jesus, God would bring along with Jesus back to heaven as He met them in the air and gathered them to His Father.  (NO TRANSLATED LIVING SAINTS were included in this rapture, because scripture doesn't teach this.  You might want to see my position on this in the End Times forum post called "We shall not all sleep" means "None of us shall sleep".)

grandcentralstation, I am not sure why you are proposing in your comment above the dates of June  AD 70 and July 17, AD 66.  Admittedly, dating events is a tricky business, calendar disparities being what they are.  In addition, Jewish festivals "floated" on the calendar in relation to the appearance of the new moon.  Since that phenomena varied, Christ could say in His days that "no man knoweth the day nor the hour".  Because of this uncertainty, they were to "watch" for this sign of the new moon in the heavens.  This appearance of the new moon determined exactly when Passover was celebrated, and consequently, when Pentecost arrived in AD 70.  This Pentecost date in AD 70 was when Christ returned for His second coming to reward the resurrected saints.

All of this above aligns with the pattern which includes #1), the "FIRST Resurrection" event in AD 33 of "Christ the Firstfruits" (I Cor. 15:23), and those 144,000 Firstfruits (Rev. 14:4) Matthew 27 saints that were raised with Christ during Passover week and #2), the SECOND resurrection event taking place on the day of Pentecost in AD 70.  This leaves only the type of the Feast of Tabernacles harvest festival remaining that will be fulfilled in #3), a THIRD resurrection event in our future (which Zechariah 14:16-19 is pointing to). 

I see no prohibition in scripture against God opening the books twice for a judgment day on two separate occasions; once, when He already judged those who lived from creation until the close of the Old Covenant age at Pentecost in AD 70, and finally, a future judgment for those who will have lived under the provisions of the New Covenant age in the "New Heavens and the New Earth" (which is NOT to be confused with heaven, our final destination).  This "New Heavens and New Earth" is our present reality of the "New Jerusalem", including all the characteristics of the NHNE that Isaiah listed for us in Isaiah 65:17-25: the presence of sinners, death, building houses, harvesting and planting, praying, birth of offspring, and fruitful labors.  (This is also a subject I have commented on under someone's post called "Why will people die in the New Heaven and the New Earth?")

Feel free to give a critique on any of this above, grandcentralstation.  If it is true, it can withstand scrutiny and will bear fruit, and anything else that doesn't line up with the whole testimony of scripture will come to nothing.

Offline grandcentralstation

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #20 on: Tue Jan 16, 2018 - 11:27:21 »
Thank you for the reply 3 Resurrections. This does clarify things a bit for me regarding the 1290 & 1335 days mentioned in Daniel 12. I got the July 17th, 66AD date from a reference made by Josephus(if my memory is accurate) that Eleazar stopped the sacrifices for the gentiles & Emperor close to the 6th of Av on the Hebrew calendar. That equates to July 17th, 66AD on our calendar according to Torah Calendar: http://torahcalendar.com/Calendar.asp?PYM=Y66M5  . It does seem that the 2 events mentioned in Daniel 12:11 happen near the same time instead of the time period being in between those 2 events. The tribulation in that 66-70 AD time period seemed to have 2 phases. The 1st phase was the tribulation of the Christians by the Zealots and the 2nd phase was the tribulation of Israel itself during the invasion & siege of Jerusalem by the Romans. There have been detractors concerning the AOD standing in the "holy place" mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24. They claim that the warning to leave Jerusalem was bad advice(too late) if the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24 was set up in the temple by the Romans on the 9th of Av 70AD. But the "holy place" mentioned in Matthew 24 is the Greek word "topos" meaning a region, not necessarily the temple itself. Comparing that to Luke 21:20 there does seem to be a parallelism. So it does make perfect sense that Jesus would have instructed the Christians to leave Judea upon the 1st surrounding of Jerusalem by the Roman Army in October of 66AD and they had ample time to do so. One interesting item I've read about is that 1335 days after the 9th of Av 70AD is Passover in 74AD... supposedly the day after Masada's fall, not sure if that is accurate though.
« Last Edit: Tue Jan 16, 2018 - 11:37:13 by grandcentralstation »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #21 on: Tue Jan 16, 2018 - 14:17:48 »
Hi again grandcentralstation.  I agree with you about the "holy place" (topos) being a REGION , and not only the Jerusalem temple itself being spoken about.  This "topos" term does allow for a broader understanding of just where this AOD was located, which I believe was fulfilled by Cestius Gallus and his 12th legion surrounding the "holy city" on October 4, AD 66. 

Some have argued that it is a mistake to call either Jerusalem or the temple "holy", especially after Christ designated it as being already "desolate" when He wept over the city in the days of His ministry.  I would answer that by saying that it wasn't GOD who in AD 66-70 considered the city or the temple to actually be "holy", but from the Jews perspective, they considered it to be so.  The title of "the holy place" or "the holy city" in scripture is simply meant to identify to the reader a particular location or thing by its usual title used in former times, so that someone will know what is being talked about. 

It would be similar to a man saying "My wife went to kindergarten at such-and-such a school".  Well, we know of course that this wife was not married to this man at the tender age of 4-6 years at the same time she was attending kindergarten at this school.  He could also say, "My beloved wife is buried at such-and-such cemetery".  Well, we know that this woman buried in the cemetery is not acting as this man's wife anymore, since she has passed away.  But we know who he is talking about, since this woman USED TO BE his living wife, though she is not that anymore.  It's the same with still calling Jerusalem the "holy city", or the "holy place" after it had lost that reputation, because it used to be called that in former times.

The date you gave from Josephus of July 17th, AD 66 for Eleazar stopping the daily sacrifice for the Roman empire and the emperor actually does end up being in the same "season" (kairos) as the AOD surrounding Jerusalem, even in the ordinary sense of the summer season of the year in Judaea.  I've read that Israel's seasons of weather predictably amount to basically two seasons - a virtually rain-free summer season from May through September, and a rain-drenched winter season starting around November and going through April.  There are just a couple weeks in between these that could be considered a sort of spring episode.   Scripture refers to this two-season pattern for us (Zech. 14:8, Ezra 10:9,13, Joshua 3:15 cp 4:19, etc).

Josephus' date of July 17th in AD 66 would actually be part of the same "season" of the year as the date of October 4th, AD 66, just as the Daniel 12:11 verse tells us that the AOD and the change of the daily sacrifice occurred together during this period.

grandcentralstation, I might differ slightly with your comment when it comes to the statement that the Zealots were the ones who persecuted the Christians sometime during the AD 66-70 era.  I don't think it was this category of the Jews who were mainly responsible for Christian persecution. I believe the first major persecution of the Christians at the hands of the Jewish leaders started the very same day that Stephen was martyred in AD 33 (Acts 8:1 Interlinear), and persisted until Paul was converted and ceased leading the priesthood's harassment of the Christians. 

For a brief period, the Christians had a certain amount of rest from persecution (Acts 9:31), but not for long.  Around AD 52, Paul in I Thessalonians 2:14-15 speaks of the Judaean believers suffering persecution by the Jews, and of himself also being "chased out" by the Jews - which probably refers to Thessalonica and Berea.  This persecution of Christians by the Jews was intense enough for Paul to call their suffering "persecutions and tribulations that ye endure" in II Thessalonians 1:4. 

The next major tribulation period for Christians by the Jews occurred around AD 59.   Paul's successful evangelization of Asia had goaded the Jews into a jealous response that broke out after the Ephesian riot of the silversmiths; a persecution which spread over all Asia, resulting in Paul being taken into custody by the Romans, the notable death of Antipas in Pergamos, and the evacuation of John from Ephesus to the isle of Patmos, where he wrote Revelation around AD 60.  The breakout of the persecution after AD 59 was why John said that he was "a companion in tribulation" in Revelation 1:9.   It was the AD 59-60 tribulation by the Jews, (not the later one under Nero) that John was referring to.

In addition, in Rev. 2:10, John told those in Smyrna that they were ABOUT TO BE cast into prison, and to experience tribulation for 10 DAYS (which I believe is symbolic for 10 YEARS of tribulation for the Smyrna believers from AD 60-70). 

All of these persecutions of Christians originating from the Jews were not coming from the Zealots, however.  As a general rule, persecution of Christians came from the religious leaders in Israel - the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the scribes,etc., who were trying to maintain the religious status quo so that they could preserve their status and positions in the religious hierarchy.

Christians experienced their "fiery trial" by Roman hands (I Peter 4:12 Interlinear) for 3 1/2 years under Nero's persecution period starting from the fire at Rome in AD 64 until Nero's death in AD 68.   Around that time, the element of Christian persecution by the Jewish leaders began to taper off, once the AD 66 Zealot rebellion against Rome broke out in full revolt, and everyone's attention was diverted to a different conflict instead; that of civil conflict between the Zealot factions and those Jews who were wanting to preserve peace with Rome for their nation's advantage.   Christians at this point were more or less observing things from the sidelines, watching the Jews fight each other, and finally witnessing Rome crush the Zealot rebellion in AD 70.  The "GREAT Tribulation" was then turned onto the Jews for them to experience, in righteous recompense from a vengeful God for their persecution of His Christian saints, (as II Thessalonians 1:6-9 foretold would happen to the Jews who were oppressing the Thessalonian believers at that time.)

Once the heart and soul of the nation was ripped out when Jerusalem and its temple were reduced to rubble by the end of AD 70, the mop-up operations at Masada had no real significance, either spiritually or physically speaking.  The Romans themselves did not wait until Masada was taken to stage the triumph and to parade the leaders of the rebellion through Rome's streets before Simon was executed as the leader of the Jewish rebellion.  They considered the destruction of Jerusalem the official take-down of the nation.  This is why I don't regard the date of Masada's fall as figuring in any of the prophetic material we have in scripture.  The "power of the holy people" being shattered, as in Daniel 12:7, has more to do with the "power" to be called the sons of God (John 1:12) being eliminated, rather than the physical, martial strength and power of the nation being shattered.   

Just my thoughts...

Offline larry2

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #22 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 07:21:49 »
Is anyone interested in a resolution to the divide between the different camps of eschatology where the resurrection is concerned?
Top of the morning to you brother. Before I get further into your divisions, may I ask you what the Lord's Day of Rev 1:10 is speaking of, and who you say Jesus' angel is? This may sound elementary, but I've heard some mighty different things. Thank you.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #23 on: Mon Mar 05, 2018 - 10:10:37 »
larry2  -  And a good morning back atcha...

Yes, I have read some differing views on just what the "Lord's Day" in Rev. 1:10 is referring to.  In an effort to help date the book of Revelation, I believe some have interpreted this "Lord's Day" to be the "Day of the Lord" when the Lord came in judgment against that generation (the AD 70 era).  The book of Revelation itself has ample internal evidence for proving the early date of its composition, (try checking out my recent comment on "When was Revelation written" that gives a date between late AD 59 - early AD 60).  Therefore, I don't think it is necessary to push this interpretation of Rev. 1:10 in order to arrive at a proper date of composition.  I don't stick to a rigid view on this verse, but I do tend to think that John more probably intended the "Lord's Day" to refer to the day of the week reserved to honor Christ's resurrection, when He first ascended to the Father to present His blood sacrifice on heaven's mercy seat and to be inaugurated as our high priest.  Psalm 118:24 refers to this singular day as "THIS is THE DAY which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."  The Psalmist was referring to the particular day in which Christ became "the head stone of the corner" which was "the Lord's doing; it is marvelous in our eyes."  I have heard this verse misapplied many times by those that think it simply refers to having a great attitude about any day which God has given you to enjoy living and working for Him.

As for just who Jesus' angel is (I presume you are looking at Revelation 1:1 for this angel), the angel tells us himself who he is in Revelation 22:6-9.  "...I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book:"  We know that the word for "angel" means "messenger", which can be either human or angelic, according to the context.  In this case, the marks of self-identification given by this angel lead me to believe that this was a RESURRECTED SAINT which had been talking to John, because he called himself a PROPHET, and a FELLOWSERVANT, who kept the sayings of this book, which was an activity that humans were to do.  The language identifying the angel here is curiously similar to that in Rev. 6:9-11 of the "fellow-servants" and the "brethren" of the souls under the altar that were given white robes and told to wait for their brethren, who were about to be killed under persecution, just as they were. 

I am firmly convinced that those souls under the altar in Revelation 6:9-11 that were all given white robes (the sign of the righteousness of the saints in a resurrected state - Rev.19:8) were the 144,000 Firstfruits saints from the First Resurrection.  In other words, they were the Matthew 27:52-53 saints raised along with Christ, the Firstfruits.   They were the "multitude of captives" that Christ brought with him out of the grave and gave as gifts to men (Eph. 4:8-12).  Those "gifts" of resurrected saints were composed of apostles, PROPHETS (like the angel in Rev. 22:9), evangelists, pastors and teachers.  All of these remained on the earth to serve in these various capacities in the early church and elsewhere during those last days of the Old Covenant before it was dissolved in AD 70.  It was at that time when those resurrected Matthew 27 saints, which were "alive and remained" on the earth (as in I Thess. 4:15,17), were raptured to heaven, following the rest of the newly-resurrected bodies of the saints to meet the Lord together in the air.

This "angel" in Rev. 1:1 and 22:9, calling himself a PROPHET and a FELLOWSERVANT of John, I believe to have been one of these 144,000 Firstfruits, Matthew 27:52-53 saints that had remained on earth.  This group of resurrected saints left their footprints all over the New Testament, and their actions and identity are referred to in more scriptural references than people realize.  If you want a list of texts that all apply to these resurrected Matthew 27 saints, I can supply one.  Full Preterists tend to avoid a discussion of this peculiar group of Matthew 27 resurrected saints as they would avoid the plague.

By the way, the man John who wrote Revelation I believe was also a resurrected saint - a true "fellow-servant" just like the "angel" who was sent to give John the revelation.  I believe there is strong evidence that John's full name was John Eleazar, (which stands for Lazarus, the beloved brother of Mary and Martha who Christ raised from the dead).  You may want to check out my comment about this topic on the post someone called "LAZARUS' SECOND FUNERAL" in the Devotionals forum section.  (A second funeral being an impossibility, since Lazarus could never die again once he was raised from the dead.)  I was highly skeptical when I first heard someone say that Lazarus was the author of Revelation, but once I started digging into scriptures about John, the "disciple whom Jesus loved", I was convinced that this was none other than the same "beloved" Lazarus who was raised from the dead, took care of Mary after Christ's crucifixion, and who eventually wrote the book of Revelation before being bodily-raptured himself to heaven on the 1335th day (Pentecost day) in AD 70. 

Just some extra "mighty different" thoughts that you didn't ask for...

Offline larry2

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #24 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 12:09:27 »
I believe some have interpreted this "Lord's Day" to be the "Day of the Lord" when the Lord came in judgment against that generation (the AD 70 era).

I in turn do not think the Lord's day has anything to do with the 70 era.

If I’m applying the word “egersis” correctly to interpretation of scripture, to me it is necessary to correctly discern what John is being shown, and the three different viewpoints he writes of from that point in time future.

I stand with the meaning of “The Lord’s Day” to be the same as “The Day of the Lord,” and you did nail who Jesus’ angel is; a fellow servant, and of our brethren. Thank you for your reply in Jesus’ name.

I just did notice that you posted in the Preterist forum; are you preterist, and if so I would have a great difference of opinion in near everything we would discuss. Thank you brother.





Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #25 on: Tue Mar 06, 2018 - 16:55:38 »
larry2  -   Always glad to find a point of agreement where we can stand on the same ground.  I don't really have a problem myself with anyone voicing conflicting views with what I say.  Isn't that really what we're all here for anyway, to be "iron sharpening iron"?  Personally, I have usually benefitted more from interaction with those that don't agree with points I make than from those who just do a bobble-headed agreement without thinking it through.   

You could consider me a preterist, but probably not like any other preterist you may have encountered before.  As you can likely tell from my username, I am HUGELY enthusiastic about the bodily resurrection of believers, and I don't carry a preterist hatchet to chop anyone to pieces who differs on eschatology.   I have come to genuinely appreciate those who frequent this forum on a regular basis.  Many posts have moved me deeply, and just as many members who have the gift of humor have made my day by giving me a hearty laugh.

Thank you for reading some of this post, larry2.  As busy as we all are, I regard it as real generosity if someone uses a bit of their free time to browse through what I scribble.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #26 on: Tue Mar 13, 2018 - 13:57:25 »

I in turn do not think the Lord's day has anything to do with the 70 era.

If I’m applying the word “egersis” correctly to interpretation of scripture, to me it is necessary to correctly discern what John is being shown, and the three different viewpoints he writes of from that point in time future.

I stand with the meaning of “The Lord’s Day” to be the same as “The Day of the Lord,” and you did nail who Jesus’ angel is; a fellow servant, and of our brethren. Thank you for your reply in Jesus’ name.

I just did notice that you posted in the Preterist forum; are you preterist, and if so I would have a great difference of opinion in near everything we would discuss. Thank you brother.
But is it possible that there is more than one "Day of the Lord?"

I think so.

Offline lea

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #27 on: Tue Mar 27, 2018 - 16:36:56 »
3 Resurrections,

I only believe in 2 Resurrections.

1) Jesus' bodily resurrection.

2) The spiritual resurrection of the dead from Hades and the Sea (gentiles) to heaven or not - the great white throne judgment.

If the angel said there " would be no longer a delay " it means it would be soon.  What the angel says is literal. What the book represents are symbols, like prophesies in the O.T.

I don't believe our flesh gets resurrected someday or whatever.  My rapture is this: When I die, my spirit will meet Jesus at the pearly gaits. I will have a new spiritual body, just like Paul wrote. Simple as that.

Now what exactly we do in heaven I don't think is written beyond worshipping the Lord (perhaps twice a day).

Offline larry2

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #28 on: Tue Mar 27, 2018 - 18:47:43 »
When I die, my spirit will meet Jesus at the pearly gaits. I will have a new spiritual body, just like Paul wrote. Simple as that.
Hi @lea. what do you think of Paul saying the following?

2Co 5:6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
2Co 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Offline lea

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #29 on: Wed Mar 28, 2018 - 10:05:31 »
Hello Larry2,

I think if we read if we read 2 Cor. 5 from the first verse, it makes sense about the tabernacle "body" we have while alive on earth.

2Cor.5:1-8, 5 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #30 on: Wed Mar 28, 2018 - 13:57:47 »
lea  -  I'll try to be quick here - got a workroom deadline in progress at the moment...

If you believe in Jesus' BODILY resurrection, then you also believe in the BODILY resurrection of those First-fruits saints in Matthew 27:52-53 (144,000 of them) that were raised along with Christ, the Firstfruits, yes?  This group of resurrected saints were a "free sample", so to speak, of what every child of faith is destined to experience.  Christ used them as an example to those believers of the first century, to encourage His followers to be "faithful unto death" under persecution, so that they could have the same crown of life that the Matthew 27 resurrected saints had obviously received.

If you do not believe the flesh of our bodies is to be raised out of the dust, what do you do with Christ's promise to the disciples in Luke 21:18?  He had just told them what persecutions they would experience, even to the point of them being "put to death" by their oppressors.  "BUT THERE SHALL NOT AN HAIR OF YOUR HEAD PERISH", He told them.  A strange way to put it, since He had just predicted that they would be martyred, after which point their flesh would decompose.  Yet the promise given was that "not an hair of your head shall perish", or go out of existence.  The only way this promise could be fulfilled is if there was a PHYSICAL resurrection of the disciples' physical, fleshly forms - made incorruptible, so that they would never be subjected to death again, as I Corinthians 15 describes in detail.

If you dispose of the physical implications of this promise, you have made the fate of the righteous AND the wicked to be identical.  The bodies of those who do NOT believe *WILL* PERISH - they do not have an everlasting life of either body or soul - the basic message behind John 3:16. In contrast, believers have an inheritance of everlasting life for BOTH body and soul.

I'm totally on board with you about the "no longer a delay" message from the angel.  It would indeed be "soon" to those John wrote to. 

I also agree that neither you nor I (as well as nobody in the future) will experience the "rapture" event as presented in I Thessalonians 4.  For myself, I believe the reason for this is because that literal, physical rapture of ONLY *RESURRECTED* SAINTS occurred long ago on Pentecost Day in AD 70.  Probably on May 31st, based on how we can calculate the prophesied 1,335th day of Daniel 12:12-13, when Daniel would share in this blessing of a resurrected body, as I commented on this above in reply #19.

I agree with you also that when you and I die, our spirits are "present with the Lord".  This has been the blessed case for anyone who would "die in the Lord from henceforth" after Christ's ascension in AD 33, according to the Revelation 14:13 context.  However, this is not the "rapture" event of I Thess. 4, since the ongoing process of individual spirits that each depart to be with Christ is not the group event described in I Thess. 4.

Also, the "pearly gates' you bring up is not something you and I have to wait for at our death.  I am ALREADY living inside these gates, since you and I live in the NHNE conditions of the New Jerusalem, which has been heaven's gift to us under the New Covenant until our spirits arrive in heaven.  As for my new "spiritual body" of incorruptible flesh and bones in heaven, I will have to wait until the fall of 3033 to obtain this.  It's worth waiting that long for.

One thing to consider: we are called "joint heirs" with Jesus (Romans 8:17).  That means we will eventually inherit the very same type of resurrected body as His, which is "alive forevermore" (Rev. 1:18), and continueth ever" (Hebrews 7:24-25). 

Another thing to consider: I am one of those who believe this planet will not be annihilated, since "the earth abideth forever", we are told (Eccl. 1:4).  God cares enough about this planet to forever preserve the dust He created.  Since He cares so much about the components that make up this planet, do you really think He doesn't have any intention to preserve the "dust" that our own bodies are made of?

As I pointed out in my original post, Christ once asked the rhetorical question in Matthew 23:17, "Ye fools and blind, for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?"  I would also ask the same type of question, "Which has more value, the dust of the planet's earth, or the dust that God breathed life into and made a living soul out of it?"  If He intends to preserve the simple element of this planet's dust, how much more importance will God put on preserving forever the human body forms of His saints that He created out of that dust?  Especially since Christ paid such an exorbitant price for both our bodies and souls, with His own blood (I Cor. 6:20).

Just trying for some basic biblical logic on this...

Offline lea

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #31 on: Thu Mar 29, 2018 - 08:40:14 »
3 Resurrections said:

If you do not believe the flesh of our bodies is to be raised out of the dust, what do you do with Christ's promise to the disciples in Luke 21:18?  He had just told them what persecutions they would experience, even to the point of them being "put to death" by their oppressors.  "BUT THERE SHALL NOT AN HAIR OF YOUR HEAD PERISH", He told them.  A strange way to put it, since He had just predicted that they would be martyred, after which point their flesh would decompose.  Yet the promise given was that "not an hair of your head shall perish", or go out of existence.  The only way this promise could be fulfilled is if there was a PHYSICAL resurrection of the disciples' physical, fleshly forms - made incorruptible, so that they would never be subjected to death again, as I Corinthians 15 describes in detail.


lea says:
LK 21:
 You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls.


3 Resurrections,

Jesus said some would die, but the other saints would live through persecutions. Therefore, not a hair on their heads would be lost.

Also, you said: If you dispose of the physical implications of this promise, you have made the fate of the righteous AND the wicked to be identical.  The bodies of those who do NOT believe *WILL* PERISH - they do not have an everlasting life of either body or soul - the basic message behind John 3:16. In contrast, believers have an inheritance of everlasting life for BOTH body and soul.

In Matt 22:30 Jesus told the Jewish leaders that in the resurrection the saints would be like angels in heaven.

Angels have bodies. We will probably have a body like the physical substance of angels.

We won't be just spirits, we will have an indestructible body.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #32 on: Thu Mar 29, 2018 - 12:42:15 »
lea  -  I believe you are introducing an artificial segregation in Luke 21:18 between those of Christ's disciples who would be martyred and those who would not be martyred.  After all, EVERY ONE OF THEM would eventually die physically, whether by martyrdom or natural death, so the promise that "not an hair of your head shall perish" applied to ALL His believing disciples.  We have the additional promise in John 3:16 that WHOSOEVER believes on Him, (whether living or if they passed through death) should  *NOT* PERISH, but have everlasting life.  That would apply to every hair on the head of every believer.  Whether they lived or died, (as Paul said), they belonged to the Lord, body and soul, and He would preserve the entirety of what made up each of His individual saints that were His purchased possession.

I think God knew that dissension would arise concerning the nature of the resurrection, and everything that was involved with it, so He provided the Matthew 276:52-53 saints in the "First Resurrection" to give a visible demonstration to the first-century believers (and us) EXACTLY what He meant by the resurrected state.  Jesus' resurrected body was not a one-and-only version of the resurrected state.  He was the "Firstborn" who "opened the matrix" for every sibling of His that followed after in a resurrected body that resembled His.  The example of the 144,000 Matthew 26:52-53 saints of the "First Resurrection" cannot be dismissed as a weird anomaly -  they are "exibit A" for us to examine and understand the nature of our own future inheritance.  You can't just shut your eyes and turn away saying "nothing to see here - let's move on..."

Lea, you have brought up the angels as an example of what we will be like in the afterlife.  I don't believe you are saying we will *become* angels, but that we will resemble them, correct?  That's true, I would agree that we will resemble the angels in the two distinct characteristics that Christ mentions there in Luke 20:35-36: 

#1), There will be no marrying or giving in marriage, since procreation to replenish the human population will not be necessary for those believers whose physical bodies...
#2), CANNOT DIE ANYMORE.  In this, we will resemble the celestial bodies of the elect angels, which are preserved so that they will never perish.  In contrast, the fallen angels and Satan*will* perish, as I have taken time to discuss on other posts in the Theology section recently.

In these two characteristics Christ gave, we will be similar, but not identical, to the bodies of angels in the resurrection.  The nature of celestial flesh of angels is a separate type from the terrestrial flesh of humankind.  In the bodily resurrection, we will not discard our terrestrial flesh forms in exchange for angelic, celestial flesh forms; our decomposed terrestrial flesh forms will themselves eventually be CHANGED and made incorruptible so that they can be "alive forevermore", like Christ's human, glorified flesh.  Until then, after death our perfected spirits will wait in heaven to be eventualy reunited with our resurrected, perfected bodies.   

This process of a bodily resurrection has taken place in two events already, with the "First Resurrection" of AD 33 during Passover week, and also the second resurrection of AD 70 on Pentecost - the 1,335th day of Daniel 12's prophecy.  In the future, all those believers who have died since AD 70 that have lived exclusively under the conditions of the New Covenant on earth will participate in the third resurrection, timed to fall during the feast of Tabernacles in 3033.  Everything I see in scripture in my six years of intensive study aligns with this.  I know this is an odd mixture of Full-preterist beliefs and so-called "Futurist" teaching, but it all aligns perfectly with the scripture's pattern of the 3 required harvest feast celebrations representing 3 bodily resurrections out of the dust.

And I am still waiting for anyone to give me proof from scripture that there will be *ONLY* ONE simultaneous resurrection and judgment...

 






Offline lea

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #33 on: Thu Mar 29, 2018 - 16:20:42 »
oh boy, you sure do write long ones!

3 Resurrections said:
lea  -  I believe you are introducing an artificial segregation in Luke 21:18 between those of Christ's disciples who would be martyred and those who would not be martyred.  After all, EVERY ONE OF THEM would eventually die physically, whether by martyrdom or natural death, so the promise that "not an hair of your head shall perish" applied to ALL His believing disciples.  We have the additional promise in John 3:16 that WHOSOEVER believes on Him, (whether living or if they passed through death) should  *NOT* PERISH, but have everlasting life.  That would apply to every hair on the head of every believer.  Whether they lived or died, (as Paul said), they belonged to the Lord, body and soul, and He would preserve the entirety of what made up each of His individual saints that were His purchased possession.


3R's, first, you are taking your theory from scripture that is out of context. In Luke 21, Jesus warns his disciples about the armies that would surround Jerusalem. In John 3:16, each believer would have everlasting life, ok, not perish, but Paul didn't word it like that.
1Thess.5:23, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


1Cor. 15:35-49- A Glorious Body (NKJV)
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh[c] of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”[d] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord[e] from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear[f] the image of the heavenly Man.


 Those saints that rose out of their graves when Jesus died on the cross- died physically again. Yes?

1Thess.4:15 For this say we unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which live, and are remaining in the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them which sleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, and with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then shall we which live and remain, be caught up with them also in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The key word in that last statement is "then."

Hebrews 12:1 says, “Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.”

Offline lea

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Re: The paradigm for ......The Three Resurrections
« Reply #34 on: Thu Mar 29, 2018 - 18:27:01 »
I missed this one 3 R's!
"In these two characteristics Christ gave, we will be similar, but not identical, to the bodies of angels in the resurrection.  The nature of celestial flesh of angels is a separate type from the terrestrial flesh of humankind.  In the bodily resurrection, we will not discard our terrestrial flesh forms in exchange for angelic, celestial flesh forms; our decomposed terrestrial flesh forms will themselves eventually be CHANGED and made incorruptible so that they can be "alive forevermore", like Christ's human, glorified flesh.  Until then, after death our perfected spirits will wait in heaven to be eventualy reunited with our resurrected, perfected bodies."

Good grief!!! Our earthly bodies rot!  The other "terrestrial" animals probably fed on it too.

When we die, our spirit doesn't want to be found unclothed, 3 R's, but God gives us a spiritual body- made for heaven.

Phew! we're to spit on our flesh! What does scripture say? If you live by the flesh you will die.  Besides, the plants and animals already ate up your flesh if you weren't cremated.

There is  NO RESURRECTION OF THE FLESH!





 

     
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