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Christian Interests => End Times Forum => Preterist Forum => Topic started by: Linker on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 13:44:40

Title: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 13:44:40
Not one ounce of any of these things have already taken place in the past as the preterist declares

If you are a preterist I want a verse by verse explanation of each and the proof by accurate historical records that what you say happened in 70 A.D. is valid

If no response, I will show how each event has never taken place in the past for the benefit of the forum

Zechariah
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: DaveW on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 13:47:17
Lookin forward to every nation on earth going to Jerusalem to keep the Feast of Tabernacles!

Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 14:06:49
Linker,

You will not answer any of our questions directed to you and you ignore all of our responses.  But most importantly, you do not accept Scripture for answers to questions because your traditions hold more value than the biblical text.

Perhaps you remember Raggthyme's response of how Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled in John 19:37.  The context is Calvary.  You ignored it.

Since you demand physical proof for your answer I can truthfully say that I cannot provide it.  Your theology and thinking is so similar to the Pharisees.  They too wanted physical proof and answers.  They wanted a physical king to rule on a physical throne to release them from their present physical bondage to the Romans.  Jesus came to provide neither.  He was judged a false prophet and put to death at the advice  and counsel of these same Pharisees.

Jesus' kingdom does not come with observation (Luke 17:20-21).  Your view of Jesus' kingdom does.

But have a nice day anyway...



Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 14:09:24
One preterist bites the dust

I will wait for any others to respond .... for a while

Then I will proceed with this thread
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 14:12:25
See, he still won't address the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10...
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Merryone on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 14:17:08
See, he still won't address the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10...

10 “Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died. Zech 12:10

While it is prophetic concerning the piercing of our Lord Jesus, the entire prophetic passage is not about Calvary. when He comes again is when Israel will truly mourn---for having ever rejected their Messiah in the first place.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 14:28:34
See, he still won't address the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10...

10 “Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died. Zech 12:10

While it is prophetic concerning the piercing of our Lord Jesus, the entire prophetic passage is not about Calvary. when He comes again is when Israel will truly mourn---for having ever rejected their Messiah in the first place.

SEE!

Their traditions have over-ruled the Word of God!

John 19:37 VERY CLEARLY states that Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled AT CALVARY.

Here, let me quote it in full...maybe that will help your belief.  Allow me to place the verse WITHIN ITS CONTEXT OF CALVARY so that you will not miss it:

John 19:32-37 - Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.   
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:   
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.   
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.   
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.   
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.  

Unless you have another Old Testament Scripture that states what John 19:37 states, then you are bound by Scripture to accept how it is applied to Zechariah 12:10 - and that is to Calvary!!!!  But I have a funny (yet sad) feeling that your tradition is still going to make this Word of God void as well...even in the face of clear Scripture!




Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 14:45:10
I want a verse by verse accounting of the preterist view of Zechariah 14 Goodie

.... your slider answer does not qualify

I will wait for any others to give a qualified answer

Then I will will show how the preterist is totally off course

And then I intend to present several other prophets including the Lord on the same subject and how all are congruent with events that simply did not take place in the past and are reserved for the future at the end of this present age
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Merryone on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 14:48:26
See, he still won't address the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10...

10 “Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died. Zech 12:10

While it is prophetic concerning the piercing of our Lord Jesus, the entire prophetic passage is not about Calvary. when He comes again is when Israel will truly mourn---for having ever rejected their Messiah in the first place.

SEE!

Their traditions have over-ruled the Word of God!

John 19:37 VERY CLEARLY states that Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled AT CALVARY.

Here, let me quote it in full...maybe that will help your belief.  Allow me to place the verse WITHIN ITS CONTEXT OF CALVARY so that you will not miss it:

John 19:32-37 - Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.   
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:   
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.   
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.   
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.   
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.  

Unless you have another Old Testament Scripture that states what John 19:37 states, then you are bound by Scripture to accept how it is applied to Zechariah 12:10 - and that is to Calvary!!!!  But I have a funny (yet sad) feeling that your tradition is still going to make this Word of God void as well...even in the face of clear Scripture!






There are many prophecies that have a near fulfillment and a far fulfillment. The near and partial fulfillment was seen at Calvary, but the far fulfillment and ultimate one is yet to come. You can't see it because preterism has blinded you to see beyond the end of your nose, prophetically.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 15:00:04
"While it is prophetic concerning the piercing of our Lord Jesus, the entire prophetic passage is not about Calvary. when He comes again is when Israel will truly mourn---for having ever rejected their Messiah in the first place."

Absolutely true [Zechariah 12:1-10; Revelation 1:7]

Let's see if any preterist on the forum will address my challenge of the OP ..... I doubt that any will, but if they do their responses will be something like Goodie's which is not acceptable .... I want a verse by verse rendering according to preterism
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Merryone on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 15:04:34
"While it is prophetic concerning the piercing of our Lord Jesus, the entire prophetic passage is not about Calvary. when He comes again is when Israel will truly mourn---for having ever rejected their Messiah in the first place."

Absolutely true [Zechariah 12:1-10; Revelation 1:7]

Let's see if any preterist on the forum will address my challenge of the OP ..... I doubt that any will, but if they do their responses will be something like Goodie's which is not acceptable .... I want a verse by verse rendering according to preterism

They won't. They just like to hear themselves talk. They are the bane of any Christian forum.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 15:09:53
See, he still won't address the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10...

10 “Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died. Zech 12:10

While it is prophetic concerning the piercing of our Lord Jesus, the entire prophetic passage is not about Calvary. when He comes again is when Israel will truly mourn---for having ever rejected their Messiah in the first place.

SEE!

Their traditions have over-ruled the Word of God!

John 19:37 VERY CLEARLY states that Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled AT CALVARY.

Here, let me quote it in full...maybe that will help your belief.  Allow me to place the verse WITHIN ITS CONTEXT OF CALVARY so that you will not miss it:

John 19:32-37 - Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.   
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:   
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.   
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.   
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.   
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.  

Unless you have another Old Testament Scripture that states what John 19:37 states, then you are bound by Scripture to accept how it is applied to Zechariah 12:10 - and that is to Calvary!!!!  But I have a funny (yet sad) feeling that your tradition is still going to make this Word of God void as well...even in the face of clear Scripture!


There are many prophecies that have a near fulfillment and a far fulfillment. The near and partial fulfillment was seen at Calvary, but the far fulfillment and ultimate one is yet to come. You can't see it because preterism has blinded you to see beyond the end of your nose, prophetically.

Can you quote me Scripture that says anything about YOUR near and partial fulfillment at Calvary but the far fulfillment is yet to come?

No, you can not.  It is your paradigm that believes these things.  If John says it was fulfilled and quotes Zechariah to say so, then it was fulfilled.  You say it was not.  I am going to stick with John.  I have tried to convince you with pure Scripture but you will not have anything to do with it.  You have your traditions and I used to have mine too because they were the same ones.  I have moved on to accept what Scripture says about itself.  You haven't.

No sense wasting any more time with indviduals who do not accept Scripture.  Lurkers beware!
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Merryone on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 15:12:10
See, he still won't address the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10...

10 “Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died. Zech 12:10

While it is prophetic concerning the piercing of our Lord Jesus, the entire prophetic passage is not about Calvary. when He comes again is when Israel will truly mourn---for having ever rejected their Messiah in the first place.

SEE!

Their traditions have over-ruled the Word of God!

John 19:37 VERY CLEARLY states that Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled AT CALVARY.

Here, let me quote it in full...maybe that will help your belief.  Allow me to place the verse WITHIN ITS CONTEXT OF CALVARY so that you will not miss it:

John 19:32-37 - Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.  
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:  
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.  
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.  
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.  
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.   

Unless you have another Old Testament Scripture that states what John 19:37 states, then you are bound by Scripture to accept how it is applied to Zechariah 12:10 - and that is to Calvary!!!!  But I have a funny (yet sad) feeling that your tradition is still going to make this Word of God void as well...even in the face of clear Scripture!


There are many prophecies that have a near fulfillment and a far fulfillment. The near and partial fulfillment was seen at Calvary, but the far fulfillment and ultimate one is yet to come. You can't see it because preterism has blinded you to see beyond the end of your nose, prophetically.

Can you quote me Scripture that says anything about YOUR near and partial fulfillment at Calvary but the far fulfillment is yet to come?

No, you can not.  It is your paradigm that believes these things.  If John says it was fulfilled and quotes Zechariah to say so, then it was fulfilled.  You say it was not.  I am going to stick with John.  I have tried to convince you with pure Scripture but you will not have anything to do with it.  You have your traditions and I used to have mine too because they were the same ones.  I have moved on to accept what Scripture says about itself.  You haven't.

No sense wasting any more time with indviduals who do not accept Scripture.  Lurkers beware!

You should talk.

Scripture is not to be taken and twisted as the preterist does. I love the word of God and I have no trouble understanding it by the power of the Holy Spirit in me who helps me.

Please, by all means, don't waste your time here any longer. I too am concerned for the lurker. Many could be confused and misled by your brand of theology, which is why many here will consistently oppose it for the sake of Jesus Christ and his word of Truth.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 15:31:30
We will continue with the OP request to allow other preterists to meet the challange for awhile ..... then I will proceed to destroy the preterist ruse with scripture

Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Jaime on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 15:48:03
May the Farce be with you Link.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 15:52:31
From your picture it looks like the "farce" is hanging out of your mouth

Trolls aren't allowed on this thread buster

Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: John S on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 16:49:48
I was under the impression that there was a "prophet" who the preterists hated.
I'm not a preterist but I wanted to know who this "prophet" was.

Apparently, sadly, the OP believes that he is this "prophet".

Are people on this site allowed to call themselves "prophets"? I hope not.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Merryone on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 16:56:30
I was under the impression that there was a "prophet" who the preterists hated.
I'm not a preterist but I wanted to know who this "prophet" was.

Apparently, sadly, the OP believes that he is this "prophet".

Are people on this site allowed to call themselves "prophets"? I hope not.

The OP is not saying that he is a prophet.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 17:02:15
"I was under the impression that there was a "prophet" who the preterists hated.
I'm not a preterist but I wanted to know who this "prophet" was.

Apparently, sadly, the OP believes that he is this "prophet"


Apparently you don't read well dude .... can you say "Zechariah"?

If you have a Bible I would suggest that you have some one read Zechariah 14 for you ..... can you do this?

I don't like trolls buddy .... so if you cannot address the thread with competence you don't qualify


Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Lehigh on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 17:45:07
See, he still won't address the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10...

EdwardGoodie,

Just ignore these misguided souls when they start threads with instigating titles.
I'll just agree with you and put the interpretation right here right now. And they can just talk amongst themselves. 
"We" love all the prophets, especially when we understand their symbolic language:
Preterist.org:
Zechariah 14:14-21 says the feast of tabernacles would be celebrated after the destruction of Jerusalem!!! Does this mean we are to keep this feast today?

Answer: As it is impossible for all nations literally to come to Jerusalem once a year, to keep a feast, it is evident that a figurative meaning must here be applied. Gospel worship is represented by the keeping of the feast of tabernacles. Verses 16-21 mean that those who do not worship God shall not have his blessing. It is a sin that is its own punishment; those who forsake the duty, forfeit the privilege of communion with God.


Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Wed Jan 04, 2012 - 18:07:14
"Just ignore these misguided souls when they start threads with instigating titles"

Goodie does not need advice to ignore ..... he is a master at it

But this thread he will not engage with his rendition of each verse in Zechariah 14

He knows that if he does he will get waxed

..... and so would you Ms Le
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: DaveW on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 05:46:17
10 “Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died. Zech 12:10

While it is prophetic concerning the piercing of our Lord Jesus, the entire prophetic passage is not about Calvary. when He comes again is when Israel will truly mourn---for having ever rejected their Messiah in the first place.
And the physical return of Jesus to earth will not occur until this happens.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Sinead on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 05:57:23
See, he still won't address the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10...

EdwardGoodie,

Just ignore these misguided souls when they start threads with instigating titles.
I'll just agree with you and put the interpretation right here right now. And they can just talk amongst themselves. 
"We" love all the prophets, especially when we understand their symbolic language:
Preterist.org:
Zechariah 14:14-21 says the feast of tabernacles would be celebrated after the destruction of Jerusalem!!! Does this mean we are to keep this feast today?

Answer: As it is impossible for all nations literally to come to Jerusalem once a year, to keep a feast, it is evident that a figurative meaning must here be applied. Gospel worship is represented by the keeping of the feast of tabernacles. Verses 16-21 mean that those who do not worship God shall not have his blessing. It is a sin that is its own punishment; those who forsake the duty, forfeit the privilege of communion with God.




I am curious about one thing - you mentioned in a different thread that many forums have a preterist outlook (correct me If I am wrong) if this is true - howcome you don't go there? Of course you can go wherever you want to but if it were me I would prefer to talk to those with the same outlook as myself, rather than those who oppose it.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Merryone on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 07:11:20
10 “Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died. Zech 12:10

While it is prophetic concerning the piercing of our Lord Jesus, the entire prophetic passage is not about Calvary. when He comes again is when Israel will truly mourn---for having ever rejected their Messiah in the first place.
And the physical return of Jesus to earth will not occur until this happens.

No. This doesn't happen until they see Jesus Christ returning.


Look! He comes with the clouds of heaven. And everyone will see him— even those who pierced him. And all the nations of the world will mourn for him. Yes! Amen!  Revelation 1:7
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: thethinker on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 09:25:31
Not one ounce of any of these things have already taken place in the past as the preterist declares

If you are a preterist I want a verse by verse explanation of each and the proof by accurate historical records that what you say happened in 70 A.D. is valid

If no response, I will show how each event has never taken place in the past for the benefit of the forum

Zechariah
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.




Linker,

Age is having an effect on your memory. I have already addressed these things in my "Preterists Believe the Threats of Prophecy" thread. I specifically gave you Zechariah 1:1 inwhich the Lord said,

"Return to Me and I will return to you."

This is the interpretive guide to Zechariah. The coming of Jehovah and all related events in Zechariah 14 were conditional. Those things would have been fulfilled IF.... We know that Israel did not fulfill the "IF" and so God could not fullfill the promises.

Quote
6As this potter am I not able to do to you? O house of Israel, an affirmation of Jehovah. Lo, as clay in the hand of the potter, So [are] ye in My hand, O house of Israel.

 7The moment I speak concerning a nation, And concerning a kingdom, To pluck up and to break down, and to destroy,

 8And that nation hath turned from its evil, Because I have spoken against it, Then I have repented of the evil that I thought to do to it.

 9And the moment I speak concerning a nation, And concerning a kingdom, to build, and to plant,

 10And it hath done the evil thing in Mine eyes, So as not to hearken to My voice, Then I have repented of the good That I have spoken of doing to it.


God CLEARLY said that He would return to Israel if they returned to Him. They did not return to Him. God CLEARLY said that if Israel did evil that He would "REPENT" of the good promises. They did evil by crucifying His Son and so He took the kingdom away from them. Jesus said so.

After 40 years of studying the scriptures you have not found truth. You should stop embarassing yourself!

thinker

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/FirefightersLady/animated_baltimore_ravens_flag_1.gif)



Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Merryone on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 09:31:26
Clearly, preterists do not believe the threats of prophecy.


1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
2 Peter 2:1-3
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: thethinker on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 09:35:23
Clearly, preterists do not believe the threats of prophecy.


1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
2 Peter 2:1-3



Lively,

First, are you going to continue to dodge Zechariah 1:1 and Jeremiah 18:6-10?

Second, Preterists affirm that the false teachers of Peter's day were destroyed. Show where we have denied it.

thinker

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/FirefightersLady/animated_baltimore_ravens_flag_1.gif)
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Merryone on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 09:38:20
False teachers of our day will be destroyed, too. That's a promise.

Why do you ignore Jeremiah 31?

 31 “The day is coming,
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: thethinker on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 10:07:09
Merryone said:
Quote
False teachers of our day will be destroyed, too. That's a promise.


False teachers of our day will be destroyed immediately uopn their deaths. Before Christ came in ad70 the false teachers slept in hades. After Christ returned they were awakened to destruction. But post ad70 they are destroyed immediately upon death.

Note that in Revelation 22 there are still false teachers lurking outside the city (the Bride). It says that they WILL have will their part in the lake of fire with the others (22:14-15).

The promise was that all would be destroyed eventually. Most were destroyed in ad70. But many were carried over and were destroyed afterwards when they died. Those of our day will be destroyed when they die too.

thinker

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/FirefightersLady/animated_baltimore_ravens_flag_1.gif)

Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: daq on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 10:10:37
Clearly, preterists do not believe the threats of prophecy.


1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
2 Peter 2:1-3


Lively,

Yea, that is no surprise: even if not the same person then certainly the same spirit. Much like "Linker" and old "Truth Files" calling everyone and everything that disagrees a "hobgoblin" ~ spirits of a feather flock together.  ::crackup::
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Merryone on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 10:20:10
Merryone said:
Quote
False teachers of our day will be destroyed, too. That's a promise.


False teachers of our day will be destroyed immediately uopn their deaths. Before Christ came in ad70 the false teachers slept in hades. After Christ returned they were awakened to destruction. But post ad70 they are destroyed immediately upon death.

Note that in Revelation 22 there are still false teachers lurking outside the city (the Bride). It says that they WILL have will their part in the lake of fire with the others (22:14-15).

The promise was that all would be destroyed eventually. Most were destroyed in ad70. But many were carried over and were destroyed afterwards when they died. Those of our day will be destroyed when they die too.

thinker

([url]http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/FirefightersLady/animated_baltimore_ravens_flag_1.gif[/url])




Wrong. Christ is still waiting for his Father to send him for his Bride. The destruction of false teachers---preterists as an example---will take place on Judgment Day.

We should be discussing the prophet that God hates--namely, the false teacher. God hates wickedness in all its forms.



Whoever abandons the right path will be severely disciplined;
      whoever hates correction will die.
Proverbs 15:10
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: thethinker on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 12:17:28
Merryone said:
Quote
False teachers of our day will be destroyed, too. That's a promise.


False teachers of our day will be destroyed immediately uopn their deaths. Before Christ came in ad70 the false teachers slept in hades. After Christ returned they were awakened to destruction. But post ad70 they are destroyed immediately upon death.

Note that in Revelation 22 there are still false teachers lurking outside the city (the Bride). It says that they WILL have will their part in the lake of fire with the others (22:14-15).

The promise was that all would be destroyed eventually. Most were destroyed in ad70. But many were carried over and were destroyed afterwards when they died. Those of our day will be destroyed when they die too.

thinker




Wrong. Christ is still waiting for his Father to send him for his Bride. The destruction of false teachers---preterists as an example---will take place on Judgment Day.

We should be discussing the prophet that God hates--namely, the false teacher. God hates wickedness in all its forms.



Whoever abandons the right path will be severely disciplined;
      whoever hates correction will die.
Proverbs 15:10


Revelation 22 CLEARLY says that there are wicked people lurking outside the gates of the city and that they will have their part in the lake of fire. This is AFTER the Lord has come.

So whether the Lord's coming is past or future makes no difference. Sinners are present on the new earth. Isaiah 65 agrees (vss. 17-20).

Most of the wicked of Israel were destroyed in ad70. Some were carried over but were "separated" from the righteous just as Jesus said. Only the saved can enter into the Bride now. The saved who now enter the Bride are NOT the Bride. Only the names of the twelve tribes of Israel are written upon the Bride. Only Israel can be the Bride just as in the old Testament.

You are NOT of the Bride! You are of her offspring. The marriage has been consummated. Christ's Bride is in heaven. It is silly to say that it would take thousands of years to consummate a marriage. It goes against all common sense.

You have been taught myths Lively! Peter said that the heavens and the earth would be destroyed as the heavens and earth in Noah's day were destroyed. The heavens and the earth in Noah's day are still here! It is the old order of things that has passed away. The earth has been made "new" in the same way the man in Christ is made "new."

Sin will ALWAYS be present except in heaven.

thinker

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/FirefightersLady/animated_baltimore_ravens_flag_1.gif)

Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Jaime on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 12:20:19
From your picture it looks like the "farce" is hanging out of your mouth

Trolls aren't allowed on this thread buster


I ain't no troll, BUSTER. They call me Jaime the MODERATOR. You need to lighten up dude. You are way too caught up with yourself.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Newbie100 on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 12:20:49
False teachers of our day will be destroyed, too. That's a promise.

Why do you ignore Jeremiah 31?

 31 “The day is coming,
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: daq on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 12:23:27
Not one ounce of any of these things have already taken place in the past as the preterist declares

If you are a preterist I want a verse by verse explanation of each and the proof by accurate historical records that what you say happened in 70 A.D. is valid

If no response, I will show how each event has never taken place in the past for the benefit of the forum

Zechariah
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.



How are you going to prove something did not happen if it did not happen? Lack of evidence is no proof of anything. And how can you be sure you are not effectively attempting to war against YHWH? After all YHWH is Spirit and Yeshua his Son is the express image according to Scripture. Also, as stated many times, but again, the flesh profits nothing, his kingdom is not of this world, the kingdom of YHWH cometh not with observation, AND ALL THINGS POINT TO CHRIST. To take away from what things Yeshua has accomplished and fulfilled in his glorious ministry and from the glorious, triumphant, victory at the Cross, is to effectively war against not only the Son but also the Father who sent him.

John 4:24 KJV
24. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Nahum 1:1-3
1. The burden of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.
2. 'El is jealous, and YHWH revengeth; YHWH revengeth, and is furious; YHWH shall take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
3. YHWH is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: YHWH hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

Zechariah 14:3-4
3. Then shall YHWH go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4. And his feet shall stand-[station] in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Luke 9:27-35 KJV
27. But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
28. And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
29. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
30. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31. Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
32. But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
33. And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
34. While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
35. And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

The clouds are the dust of His feet ...  ::nodding::
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Merryone on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 12:31:18
Merryone said:
Quote
False teachers of our day will be destroyed, too. That's a promise.

False teachers of our day will be destroyed immediately uopn their deaths. Before Christ came in ad70 the false teachers slept in hades. After Christ returned they were awakened to destruction. But post ad70 they are destroyed immediately upon death.

Note that in Revelation 22 there are still false teachers lurking outside the city (the Bride). It says that they WILL have will their part in the lake of fire with the others (22:14-15).

The promise was that all would be destroyed eventually. Most were destroyed in ad70. But many were carried over and were destroyed afterwards when they died. Those of our day will be destroyed when they die too.

thinker



Wrong. Christ is still waiting for his Father to send him for his Bride. The destruction of false teachers---preterists as an example---will take place on Judgment Day.

We should be discussing the prophet that God hates--namely, the false teacher. God hates wickedness in all its forms.



Whoever abandons the right path will be severely disciplined;
      whoever hates correction will die.
Proverbs 15:10

Revelation 22 CLEARLY says that there are wicked people lurking outside the gates of the city and that they will have their part in the lake of fire. This is AFTER the Lord has come.

Yes, at least a millennium after Jesus has come and after final Judgment.

Quote
So whether the Lord's coming is past or future makes no difference. Sinners are present on the new earth. Isaiah 65 agrees (vss. 17-20).

Only during the Millennium.

Quote
Most of the wicked of Israel were destroyed in ad70. Some were carried over but were "separated" from the righteous just as Jesus said. Only the saved can enter into the Bride now. The saved who now enter the Bride are NOT the Bride. Only the names of the twelve tribes of Israel are written upon the Bride. Only Israel can be the Bride just as in the old Testament.

That's rubbish.

Quote
You are NOT of the Bride! You are of her offspring. The marriage has been consummated. Christ's Bride is in heaven. It is silly to say that it would take thousands of years to consummate a marriage. It goes against all common sense.

Yes, as a follower of Christ and part of the Church, I am of the Bride of Christ. I've got my lamp lit and mu extra oil waiting!

Quote
You have been taught myths Lively! Peter said that the heavens and the earth would be destroyed as the heavens and earth in Noah's day were destroyed. The heavens and the earth in Noah's day are still here! It is the old order of things that has passed away. The earth has been made "new" in the same way the man in Christ is made "new."

I have never been taught a myth yet, and because I have the Holy Ghost, I can recognize a false teaching by its smell a mile away. Preterism REEKS.

The earth is still as it always was since Jesus ascended. You are preaching a perversion. Those who are truly Christ's reject it.

Quote
Sin will ALWAYS be present except in heaven.

Heaven will be the New Earth. Sin will be banished forever.

Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Newbie100 on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 12:31:30
Hi daq,

I never realized that the LORD from Zechariah 14:3 was speaking of Jehovah God.  It was always taught to me that it was Jesus, the Messiah, the Christ...

That changes some stuff for me...thanks!
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Jaime on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 12:32:15
Jesus IS Jehovah. He is the I AM that spoke to Moses.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Merryone on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 12:35:25
Hi daq,

I never realized that the LORD from Zechariah 14:3 was speaking of Jehovah God.  It was always taught to me that it was Jesus, the Messiah, the Christ...

That changes some stuff for me...thanks!

It is Jesus who will be standing on that Mount of Olives. The Lord is Jesus the Messiah, who is also God.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Newbie100 on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 12:40:40
Merryone,

Don't forget to respond to my post in this same thread (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/the-prophet-that-the-preterist-hates/msg1054653284/#msg1054653284 (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/the-prophet-that-the-preterist-hates/msg1054653284/#msg1054653284))

Thanks.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: thethinker on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 14:05:13
Jesus IS Jehovah. He is the I AM that spoke to Moses.


So you deny the Trinity then? The name Jehovah does NOT always refer to Jesus. The name Jehovah is NOT Jesus in Zechariah 14 for in 13:7 we see that He is distinct from Jehovah. That distinction is kept throughout Zechariah.

To say that the name Jehovah always refers to Jesus is to deny the Trinity.

thinker

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/FirefightersLady/animated_baltimore_ravens_flag_1.gif)
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Merryone on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 14:10:14
Jesus IS Jehovah. He is the I AM that spoke to Moses.

Amen!
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: thethinker on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 14:11:42
Hi daq,

I never realized that the LORD from Zechariah 14:3 was speaking of Jehovah God.  It was always taught to me that it was Jesus, the Messiah, the Christ...

That changes some stuff for me...thanks!


It is Jesus who will be standing on that Mount of Olives. The Lord is Jesus the Messiah, who is also God.


First, it is NOT Jesus who is standing on the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah. It is Jehovah who is standing on the MT of Olives. Jesus is separate from Jehovah in 13:7 and is kept separate throughout the book of Zechariah.

Second, the prophecy of Jehovah's coming was conditional upon Israel returning to Jehovah (1:1). Israel did NOT meet the condition. Therefore, Jehovah will NEVER come to them. He destroyed their house in ad70 instead.

thinker

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/FirefightersLady/animated_baltimore_ravens_flag_1.gif)
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Merryone on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 14:14:08
Hi daq,

I never realized that the LORD from Zechariah 14:3 was speaking of Jehovah God.  It was always taught to me that it was Jesus, the Messiah, the Christ...

That changes some stuff for me...thanks!

It is Jesus who will be standing on that Mount of Olives. The Lord is Jesus the Messiah, who is also God.

First, it is NOT Jesus who is standing on the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah. It is Jehovah who is standing on the MT of Olives. Jesus is separate from Jehovah in 13:7 and is kept separate throughout the book of Zechariah.

Second, the prophecy of Jehovah's coming was conditional upon Israel returning to Jehovah (1:1). Israel did NOT meet the condition. Therefore, Jehovah will NEVER come to them. He destroyed their house in ad70 instead.

thinker


No, it is Jesus.

God still has great plans for Israel. Watch and see.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: thethinker on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 14:14:31
Jesus IS Jehovah. He is the I AM that spoke to Moses.


Amen!


Isaiah said,

"It pleased Jehovah to bruise Him" (Jesus). Is Jesus Jehovah in this verse? Is it true that the name Jehovah ALWAYS applies to Him?

thinker

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/FirefightersLady/animated_baltimore_ravens_flag_1.gif)

Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Merryone on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 14:16:17
Jesus IS Jehovah. He is the I AM that spoke to Moses.

Amen!

Isaiah said,

"It pleased Jehovah to bruise Him" (Jesus). Is Jesus Jehovah in this verse? Is it true that the name Jehovah ALWAYS applies to Him?

thinker


You have to take the context into consideration, don't you? Sometimes its the Father, and others, it's the Son.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: thethinker on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 14:17:32
Hi daq,

I never realized that the LORD from Zechariah 14:3 was speaking of Jehovah God.  It was always taught to me that it was Jesus, the Messiah, the Christ...

That changes some stuff for me...thanks!


It is Jesus who will be standing on that Mount of Olives. The Lord is Jesus the Messiah, who is also God.


First, it is NOT Jesus who is standing on the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah. It is Jehovah who is standing on the MT of Olives. Jesus is separate from Jehovah in 13:7 and is kept separate throughout the book of Zechariah.

Second, the prophecy of Jehovah's coming was conditional upon Israel returning to Jehovah (1:1). Israel did NOT meet the condition. Therefore, Jehovah will NEVER come to them. He destroyed their house in ad70 instead.

thinker



No, it is Jesus.


Prove it! Jehovah called Jesus "My Shepherd" in 13:7. Isaiah said, "It pleased Jehovah to bruise Him (Jesus). Is Jesus Jehovah in this statement?

thinker

(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f345/FirefightersLady/animated_baltimore_ravens_flag_1.gif)

Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: thethinker on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 14:22:01
Jesus IS Jehovah. He is the I AM that spoke to Moses.

Amen!

Isaiah said,

"It pleased Jehovah to bruise Him" (Jesus). Is Jesus Jehovah in this verse? Is it true that the name Jehovah ALWAYS applies to Him?

thinker



You have to take the context into consideration, don't you? Sometimes its the Father, and others, it's the Son.

You're right about context. In 13:7 Jehovah and Jesus are NOT the same person. Therefore, Jehovah and NOT Jesus was to stand on the Mt. of Olives. It is good that you admitted to context being the determining factor. But you shot yourself in the foot by your admission.

thinker


Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Merryone on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 14:48:33
Jehovah:
"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance."
Isaiah 45:23

Jesus:
"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Phil. 2:10-11

Jehovah:
"For the Lord your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality, nor take a bribe."
Deut. 10:17

Jesus:
"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."
Rev. 17:14

Jehovah:
"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me."
Isaiah 44:6

Jesus:
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
Rev. 22:12-13
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Merryone on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 14:50:55
Jesus IS Jehovah. He is the I AM that spoke to Moses.

Amen!

Isaiah said,

"It pleased Jehovah to bruise Him" (Jesus). Is Jesus Jehovah in this verse? Is it true that the name Jehovah ALWAYS applies to Him?

thinker



You have to take the context into consideration, don't you? Sometimes its the Father, and others, it's the Son.

You're right about context. In 13:7 Jehovah and Jesus are NOT the same person. Therefore, Jehovah and NOT Jesus was to stand on the Mt. of Olives. It is good that you admitted to context being the determining factor. But you shot yourself in the foot by your admission.

thinker




Jesus will stand upon the Mount of Olives.

Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Jaime on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 16:27:03
The very image of the invisible God.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Lehigh on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 18:58:38
See, he still won't address the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10...

EdwardGoodie,

Just ignore these misguided souls when they start threads with instigating titles.
I'll just agree with you and put the interpretation right here right now. And they can just talk amongst themselves. 
"We" love all the prophets, especially when we understand their symbolic language:
Preterist.org:
Zechariah 14:14-21 says the feast of tabernacles would be celebrated after the destruction of Jerusalem!!! Does this mean we are to keep this feast today?

Answer: As it is impossible for all nations literally to come to Jerusalem once a year, to keep a feast, it is evident that a figurative meaning must here be applied. Gospel worship is represented by the keeping of the feast of tabernacles. Verses 16-21 mean that those who do not worship God shall not have his blessing. It is a sin that is its own punishment; those who forsake the duty, forfeit the privilege of communion with God.




I am curious about one thing - you mentioned in a different thread that many forums have a preterist outlook (correct me If I am wrong) if this is true - howcome you don't go there? Of course you can go wherever you want to but if it were me I would prefer to talk to those with the same outlook as myself, rather than those who oppose it.

Why not share on Christian forums and hear others reasons for their beliefs?
You didn't have to post in any of the threads started by preterists, so why did you venture off from your comfortable "futuristic eschatology" threads if not for trying to understand something posted?
And I do attend other forums. I do not appreciate any Christian forum that is so bigoted that their pocketbook and ego feels threatened (or something like that) that they can't tolerate someone not crooking their neck to literally see Christ flying down from the clouds!
We have to realize that even the "Apostles creed" was not written by the apostles.  So, Christ's coming is at first instance, not imminent for the church fathers, but for the apostles' generation.

Uninspired men didn't write Scripture, they just give a zealous interpretation of it.

Notice the spin throughout the centuries and many different "excuses" for Christ's failure to come is apologized for within Christian eschatology?

All because one is not looking at the Bible from a first century perspective.
All the apostles and disciples expected the return of Christ in their generation.

The "nature" of His return is misunderstood, therefore the plain explicit timing in the Bible cannot be taken literally, but has been twisted to mean some intangible and unrecognizable time to suit the futuristic paradigm.

Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 19:12:19
"Jesus will stand upon the Mount of Olives."

No doubt, and the Mount of Olives will breach creating a rift valley to the east in which a believing remnant part of Israel will flee from the invasion of Satan's beast and followers [these will be the Muslims of the Middle East that surround Israel] [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 38:39; Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

The world will not see the Lord doing this, but will only see the rift caused by Him ..... and this event will occur at the middle of the coming 70th week decreed for Israel

The Lord's action will be similar to His parting of the Red Sea during Israel's flee from bondage in Egypt .... no one saw Him .... but the Red Sea parted

He will not appear openly to the world until just after those days of the tribulation of His wrath and judgment are over    
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Jaime on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 19:15:50
Someone named Lord is going to be standing on the Mt of Olives after it splits. It hasnt split yet. ::bowing::
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 20:07:42
I see that no preterist can deal with the prophet Zechariah

..... not even the one wearing the mask of the old tongue myster

So I will give commentary on this significant prophecy that Zechariah has recorded soon

Hold on  
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Jaime on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 20:17:49
Linker, I don't know if you are referring to me, but I'm definitely no preterist. Anything but.

If you are a futurist, we agree.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Lehigh on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 20:23:44
I see that no preterist can deal with the prophet Zechariah

..... not even the one wearing the mask of the old tongue myster

So I will give commentary on this significant prophecy that Zechariah has recorded soon

Hold on  

Says you. And you do not know the first thing about interpreting prophecy because you are a literalist and the the prophets weren't!

So you "see" nothing.

You only project that you wish other Christians hated Zechariah!

Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 20:49:31
"Linker, I don't know if you are referring to me, but I'm definitely no preterist"


You are a smart guy if true .... speak more so that one can get your drift


The other one posting with the comical iconic twiddles is not so smart .... one who is fading rapidly away

.... I can just barely hear the muffle and the swishing of a dying wind from one who does not dare to refute the prophet Zechariah for fear of playing a card that will lose .... a bluffer who attempts to hide a losing hand   
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Jaime on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 20:58:54
What do you mean? i have argued for the notion that Christ will come to earth as Zach 14 describes and begin his milennium reign on several threads. If you are trying to win converts to your point of view, you certainly have a strange methodology.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 21:06:41
I have no ambition to convert one to anything

I am here to teach Bible prophecy .... a few listen .... but most do not on the Internet message boards

..... all must decide for themselves

I don't know about any of your past postings since I have been here only a short time

Sound like you may be on the right track

.... but I also sense some rebuttal in your response .... is your tongue showing a little?

Do you have a specific question?
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Jaime on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 21:13:22
No, I don't understand your apparent animosity towards me. What rebuttal in my response are you referring to?
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Merryone on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 21:19:55
I see that no preterist can deal with the prophet Zechariah

..... not even the one wearing the mask of the old tongue myster

So I will give commentary on this significant prophecy that Zechariah has recorded soon

Hold on  

Says you. And you do not know the first thing about interpreting prophecy because you are a literalist and the the prophets weren't!

So you "see" nothing.

You only project that you wish other Christians hated Zechariah!



Get on it and start spilling about Zechariah. So far, it takes a literalist to understand the prophets.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 21:38:35
"No, I don't understand your apparent animosity towards me. What rebuttal in my response are you referring to?"

No animosity .... just a sense of your approach being negative

True or not?
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Jaime on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 21:53:12
I don't get it, as far as I can tell we agree on the fact we think preteriat are wrong and Zachariah 14 is a future event involving Jesus inaugurating his 1000 yr reign on earth. What negative are you referring to? I say not true. Why do you consider it being true that I'm negative about this stance that we agree on?
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 22:10:56
"as far as I can tell we agree on the fact we think preteriat are wrong and Zachariah 14 is a future event involving Jesus inaugurating his 1000 yr reign on earth"

This is good and I agree totally with what you have briefly stated

How can I find your past postings since I have seen none of them

Is there a way to reference them as your listed postings on the forum for review?
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Jaime on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 22:19:57
You can click on my name in the upper left of any post and that will bring you to my profile. You can click on "show posts" and that will give you a chronological history of my posts.

I strongly believe that the Sabbath and the land sabbaths are foreshadows of the millenial kingdom, or the 7th millenium.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 22:28:11
I will review your postings

Do you plan to post more currently?
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Jaime on Thu Jan 05, 2012 - 22:34:53
I will review your postings

Do you plan to post more currently?

More currently than what. I average about 10 per day, 15 today.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Fri Jan 06, 2012 - 05:40:07
I don't see your posts on this part of the forum .... it is the only place where I have time to post

tell me about your sabbath views and the millennial kingdom
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Jaime on Fri Jan 06, 2012 - 06:32:57
I don't see your posts on this part of the forum .... it is the only place where I have time to post

tell me about your sabbath views and the millennial kingdom


You can click Search at the top of the page here and then search by user Jaime, and a screen will pop up asking for search parameters . You can search for terms such as Zechariah, or Millennial or Sabbath and then click show results as messages, it will search all my posts for that term and show them.

I did a search just now and found a thread from earlier this year entitled Zecharia 14, that I started:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/zechariah-14/ (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/zechariah-14/)

This link under the help button might be helpful to walk you through the search function if you have trouble:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?action=help;page=searching (http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?action=help;page=searching)
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Fri Jan 06, 2012 - 10:10:34
I will check out
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Sat Jan 07, 2012 - 07:45:25
This entire vision is one of the future and still pending .... it is a view of the coming 70th decreed for Israel and beyond .... a remnant part of the nation is in the land today for this coming experience

Zechariah
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

[the Roman Empire was not "all nations", and these above are the nations that will come against Israel at the time of the end] [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 38; Micah 5]

14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

[The Lord did not go forth in 70 A.D. ....the Romans won the battle against Israel .... the Lord never loses]

14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

[This geographical change has never taken place and certainly not in 70 A.D.]

14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

[There was no fleeing like this one described in 70 A.D.]

14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

[verses 14:6 - 14:19 describe a future time and these conditions did not emerge in 70 A.D.]

14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

[Neither were these conditons produced in 70 A.D. as described in verses 14:10- 14:11 .... Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans]

14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

[Did this happen in70 A.D. and if so where is the historical record of the event?]

14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

[This certainly is not a view of the Roman invasions in 70 A,D,]

14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

[And to say that this setting was the result of the Roman invasions of 70 A.D. is absurd]

14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

[Were there any Canaanites left to inhabit the Lord's city of Jerusalem after 70 A.D.? ..... you had better believe there were .... and great numbers of them have since moved in and are still there today]


The other prophets had visions of this same future setting giving even more details, none of which have ever taken place in the past ..... I will continue this thread with the evidence soon
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Lehigh on Sat Jan 07, 2012 - 11:18:08
Quote
This entire vision is one of the future and still pending .... it is a view of the coming 70th decreed for Israel and beyond .... a remnant part of the nation is in the land today for this coming experience
Nope. Paul said there was a remnant at the present time saved by grace.(Rom.11:5)
Try to disprove that!
Quote
[the Roman Empire was not "all nations", and these above are the nations that will come against Israel at the time of the end] [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 38; Micah 5]
Yes, they were, plus all the "nations" of Israel too.
The Roman Empire included all. You need to read some Roman history before you try teach that this didn't occur already.
Quote
14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

[This geographical change has never taken place and certainly not in 70 A.D.]

Again, this was already proven in another post as being symbolic. 
Your problem is you only know the prophecies of the O.T. and apply them to your end-time paradigm.
Such limited understanding of the rest of the O.T. usually results from hearing the word of God and faith(& understanding the rest of the O.T. especially) from the wrong church preachers/teachers!

Quote
[There was no fleeing like this one described in 70 A.D.]
OMG, even Eusebius (church father) records his recognition of the event.

Quote
14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

[verses 14:6 - 14:19 describe a future time and these conditions did not emerge in 70 A.D.]

Oh this is a real OMG! The remnant of Israel in the New Jersualem on earth (Rev.21) plus the dead patriarchs in the "heavenly" New Jerusalem city would be sad if that were true.
The promise came through for them and the Lord is definitely King over the whole earth today. The living waters from the New Jerusalem represent the Holy Spirit . God has already come in to "sup" with us!

Quote
14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

[Neither were these conditons produced in 70 A.D. as described in verses 14:10- 14:11 .... Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans]
Notice "Jerusalem is raised up in v.10. This is a picture of the "Jerusalem that is above"
The spiritual Jerusalem, the mother of us all.

Quote
14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Preterist.org:
Zechariah 14:14-21 says the feast of tabernacles would be celebrated after the destruction of Jerusalem!!! Does this mean we are to keep this feast today?

Answer: As it is impossible for all nations literally to come to Jerusalem once a year, to keep a feast, it is evident that a figurative meaning must here be applied. Gospel worship is represented by the keeping of the feast of tabernacles. Verses 16-21 mean that those who do not worship God shall not have his blessing. It is a sin that is its own punishment; those who forsake the duty, forfeit the privilege of communion with God.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Sat Jan 07, 2012 - 12:07:17
[Another diddling attempt of the preterist above]


The next prophet will be Isaiah and his view of the time of the end of this present age
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Jan 07, 2012 - 14:07:51
Not one ounce of any of these things have already taken place in the past as the preterist declares

If you are a preterist I want a verse by verse explanation of each and the proof by accurate historical records that what you say happened in 70 A.D. is valid

If no response, I will show how each event has never taken place in the past for the benefit of the forum

Zechariah
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
I am only a partial preterist (and partial futurist, I guess), and do not hold to the 70AD date, but... if you are asking for a literal historical fulfillment, you will find that this is not what most believe about Zechariah 8-14.  If you ask someone to defend a point of view which they do not hold, you shouldn't be expected when they don't defend it.

This passage is generally interpreted as being an apocalypse - that is, it is composed of visions which are meant to be interpreted spiritually/supernally, not necessarily physically or literally.

Before you dismiss that, you should note that the New Testament allows this treatment of Old Testament visions.  For instance, this verse:

Zechariah 14:8 - And it shall be in that day, [that] living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

...seems to find fulfillment in these verses:

Jhn 7:37-38 - In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Jarrod
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: daq on Sat Jan 07, 2012 - 14:31:10
Not one ounce of any of these things have already taken place in the past as the preterist declares

If you are a preterist I want a verse by verse explanation of each and the proof by accurate historical records that what you say happened in 70 A.D. is valid

If no response, I will show how each event has never taken place in the past for the benefit of the forum

Zechariah
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

I am only a partial preterist (and partial futurist, I guess), and do not hold to the 70AD date, but... if you are asking for a literal historical fulfillment, you will find that this is not what most believe about Zechariah 8-14.  If you ask someone to defend a point of view which they do not hold, you shouldn't be expected when they don't defend it.

This passage is generally interpreted as being an apocalypse - that is, it is composed of visions which are meant to be interpreted spiritually/supernally, not necessarily physically or literally.

Before you dismiss that, you should note that the New Testament allows this treatment of Old Testament visions.  For instance, this verse:

Zechariah 14:8 - And it shall be in that day, [that] living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

...seems to find fulfillment in these verses:

Jhn 7:37-38 - In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Jarrod



AMEN!!  ::nodding::

(http://sheshbazzardaq.com/hemisphere.gif)


(http://sheshbazzardaq.com/john7.jpg)
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Sat Jan 07, 2012 - 15:23:05
"If you are asking for a literal historical fulfillment, you will find that this is not what most believe about Zechariah 8-14.  If you ask someone to defend a point of view which they do not hold, you shouldn't be expected when they don't defend it."

Who is the "most" that you say do not interpret Zechariah 14:8 literally?

I believe that Zechariah 14:8 is future and literal .... just as these parallel passages of scripture are future and literal: [Zechariah 14:8 should not be taken out of the context of the chapter which obviously a 100% vision of the future .... selective allegory should never be used to interpret the visions of the Bible prophets]

Isaiah
11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

Ezekiel
36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.

36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

36:36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.

36:37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.

36:38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

[39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Daniel
2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Joel
3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

3:20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

3:21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

Micah
4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

5:5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.

5:6 And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

5:7 And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.

5:8 And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

Matthew
24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: raggthyme2012 on Sat Jan 07, 2012 - 15:43:55
Merryone,

You said only the literalists understand the prophets.. were not the leaders in Jesus day looking for the literal fulfillment of God's kingdom? Because of this, they missed that in Jesus the law and the prophets were fulfilled. They missed that the kingdom was one where the true worshippers would no longer worship in that place or in that temple, but in spirit and truth. They missed it so bad, holding to a literal and physical view, that they killed their own Messiah.

Why wouldn't the days of vengeance/end of the world that Jesus taught about come upon that generation that killed the Son of God? Why wouldn't the prophecies all come to fulfillment within that wicked generation. The end came, just like He said it would... the end of that Old covenant system. This is what the Bible deals with, not the end of this physical world. The prophets were Hebrew prophets and the prophecies pertained to Israel. If "all things written" are not yet fulfilled, then we are still under the Mosaic Law according to Jesus. He said assuredly that not one iota of the Law would pass until "heaven and earth" pass away. If the dispensational view is a correct view (that the heaven and earth Jesus spoke of are literal) then we are still under Law and the Old covenant is not yet replaced with the New.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Sat Jan 07, 2012 - 16:12:43
In conclusion of this thread it needs to be understood that the Bible prophets saw both near term and far off events .... the distant ones still awaiting fulfillment

Israel rejected the Lord because they were not willing to accept the fact that they needed a savior rather than clinging to the law which only condemns .... the Lord came to notify them and set the record straight that they were sinners and that their self-righteousness and works would not save them ..... and they rebelled against Him [just like we all do]

There is a time frame given in Daniel's vision of the 70 weeks of years decreed for his people of his nation that has seen partial fulfillment [this time frame is a period of 490 literal 360 day years] [Daniel 9]

483 years [173880 days] of this time lapse ended in 33 A.D. when the Lord was cut off at the end of the 69th week [the beginning of this allotted time was at the return of the remnant of Israel from the Babylonian captivity to rebuild Jerusalem]

There is still 1 week [7 years .... 2520 days] to finish that has never taken place

The Lord has delayed His confirming and execution of this time frame because of Israel's rejection

.... but He still intends to finish [confirm] the covenant that He has with His national people of Israel at the end of this present age [Jeremiah 31:31-37]

The Bible prophets do not see any events upon the earth between the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th which is still pending .... all of their visions are silent with respect to this breach between the Lord's first and second advent

There is a returned remnant of Israel in the land today after about 2000 years of absence [this time lapse is not seen in the prophetic visions] .... and it is this generation of Israel who will experience the fulfillment of the 70th week that is coming [Luke 21:20-32]    
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: raggthyme2012 on Sat Jan 07, 2012 - 21:06:50
Merryone,

You seem to assume folks who don't hold to your particular interpretation of end times study are NOT EVEN CHRISTIANS and have no right to come into these forums. What a way to judge the hearts and intents of men. Even within your own theological faction there is MUCH debate. I have talked with many dispensationalists who differ greatly in their understanding of the Bible. I've listened to many, many of their pastors on the radio with opposing views. I do appreciate godly teachers of every eschatological view. And just because I'm not a Zionist doesn't mean I don't glean the good stuff from them. We just don't see eye to eye on prophecy. I don't accuse them of being liars and condemn them as heretics because they don't agree with me. God is our judge. If someone is saying there is another way to come to God besides Jesus Christ, a big red flag would go up. If someone is saying that God wrote another book, or that God is a cosmic force and we are all god within... red flag. But you're condemning people for reading the Bible and seeing it in a different way. If it's not your way, your churches way, it's the highway??

Everyone needs to stop judging the intents of the heart and speak with more grace. Chances are none of us know each other personally or whether or not we are known of God. Accusing someone who holds the testimony of God (that He has given us eternal life in His Son) of spreading the lies of the devil because they don't understand the Scriptures in the same way you do is a pretty darn serious accusation.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Jan 07, 2012 - 21:07:31
"If you are asking for a literal historical fulfillment, you will find that this is not what most believe about Zechariah 8-14.  If you ask someone to defend a point of view which they do not hold, you shouldn't be expected when they don't defend it."

Who is the "most" that you say do not interpret Zechariah 14:8 literally?

I believe that Zechariah 14:8 is future and literal .... just as these parallel passages of scripture are future and literal: [Zechariah 14:8 should not be taken out of the context of the chapter which obviously a 100% vision of the future .... selective allegory should never be used to interpret the visions of the Bible prophets.
That would be most preterists... that is who you addressed the thread to, I believe.

As for "selective allegory," it really isn't a matter of just picking and choosing things.  Any examination of Zechariah will necessarily tell you that the book is written in two sections.  Go find a few... I can wait while you read up on it.

While we're at it, this is a common form for the prophetic writings.  We should view it as an intentional feature of the writings themselves.  Off the top of my head, I would note that Isaiah, Daniel and Zechariah ALL contain two major sections - the first dealing with the literal events surrounding the time of the writer, while the second deals strictly with a spiritual/supernal interpretation, which finds fulfillment in the life and times of Christ.

Jarrod
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Merryone on Sun Jan 08, 2012 - 22:42:33
Merryone,

You seem to assume folks who don't hold to your particular interpretation of end times study are NOT EVEN CHRISTIANS and have no right to come into these forums. What a way to judge the hearts and intents of men. Even within your own theological faction there is MUCH debate. I have talked with many dispensationalists who differ greatly in their understanding of the Bible. I've listened to many, many of their pastors on the radio with opposing views. I do appreciate godly teachers of every eschatological view. And just because I'm not a Zionist doesn't mean I don't glean the good stuff from them. We just don't see eye to eye on prophecy. I don't accuse them of being liars and condemn them as heretics because they don't agree with me. God is our judge. If someone is saying there is another way to come to God besides Jesus Christ, a big red flag would go up. If someone is saying that God wrote another book, or that God is a cosmic force and we are all god within... red flag. But you're condemning people for reading the Bible and seeing it in a different way. If it's not your way, your churches way, it's the highway??

Everyone needs to stop judging the intents of the heart and speak with more grace. Chances are none of us know each other personally or whether or not we are known of God. Accusing someone who holds the testimony of God (that He has given us eternal life in His Son) of spreading the lies of the devil because they don't understand the Scriptures in the same way you do is a pretty darn serious accusation.

Sorry, raggthyme, but that is not a correct assessment of what I am about. Let's just continue on in the discussion, OK? Thanks.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Mon Jan 09, 2012 - 09:44:48
Merryone,

You have dodged Raggthyme's questions directed at you.

"Merryone,

You said only the literalists understand the prophets.. were not the leaders in Jesus day looking for the literal fulfillment of God's kingdom? Because of this, they missed that in Jesus the law and the prophets were fulfilled. They missed that the kingdom was one where the true worshipers would no longer worship in that place or in that temple, but in spirit and truth. They missed it so bad, holding to a literal and physical view, that they killed their own Messiah.

Why wouldn't the days of vengeance/end of the world that Jesus taught about come upon that generation that killed the Son of God? Why wouldn't the prophecies all come to fulfillment within that wicked generation? The end came, just like He said it would... the end of that Old covenant system. This is what the Bible deals with, not the end of this physical world. The prophets were Hebrew prophets and the prophecies pertained to Israel. If "all things written" are not yet fulfilled, then we are still under the Mosaic Law according to Jesus. He said assuredly that not one iota of the Law would pass until "heaven and earth" pass away. If the dispensational view is a correct view (that the heaven and earth Jesus spoke of are literal) then we are still under Law and the Old covenant is not yet replaced with the New."

In fact, you failed to address anything he said or asked...I guess this would be you running and hiding?

I guess that you haven't realized yet that if heaven and earth have not passed (according to your paradigm) that it mandates that we are still under the Law.  And because of that, we should still be in obedience to every jot and tittle of that physical temple system.

But guess what?  It is impossible because that system was destroyed almost 2,000 years ago.  So, with no system (temple, priesthood, offerings, etc), do you really think God has asked you to do something which is not even possible?

But you won't even reconsider your position that that the end of the world was, in fact, the end of the physical temple system.

This is why you are unable to believe what the INSPIRED apostle Paul said in regard to that he had preached the Gospel to all the world, etc.,and then the end would come.  The end did come but it was not the end of of the present universe.

That is why I asked where is the end of the universe spoken of in the OT - because this is where the promise/prophecy began.  Only one person gave an OT quote and it was quickly pointed out that it was in regard to Israel...

And why then do you wish to see a return to the Mosaic Law system when you know Jesus fulfilled this system.  You need to rebuild this system so that it can be destroyed again (and almost immediately).  You are attempting to reduplicate past historical events so that they can be fulfilled again...
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Mon Jan 09, 2012 - 10:05:56
I will review your postings

Do you plan to post more currently?

LINKER just looking for trouble...... WHAT are you asking this for, do you see that you only AGAIN want to cause trouble with everyone and anyone.... You hound this person on how to find post or if their gonna do more current ones.  Unbelieveable

I see in other post you constantly saying:

I WANT A through and full verse by verse explanantion

Your way to tragic to be just so silly in your demands of others

just look above and I'm sure for pages to come on EVERY page you creep upon
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: KNOWLEDGE BOMB on Mon Jan 09, 2012 - 10:30:20
There is a returned remnant of Israel in the land today after about 2000 years of absence [this time lapse is not seen in the prophetic visions] .... and it is this generation of Israel who will experience the fulfillment of the 70th week that is coming [Luke 21:20-32]    

This is incorrect... The generation is NOT the generation of Jews who came back in 1948


If one looks, the generation Luke speaks of is the generation who SEE THESE THINGS TAKE PLACE, some of THEM will see Christ. Coming on the clouds for the rapture...

You'll hear false teachers like Hal Lindsey or van impe say that v.29 the fig tree MEANs Israel...
If you look v.28 tells us that when we see these things happen
The stars sun and moon v.25 to look up your redemption draws near.
He teaches pre trib rapture so that's why he see it as he does...

V. 36 sums it all up as ALL BELIEVERS are to watch for Christ return (active in Gods will)
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Mon Jan 09, 2012 - 11:08:50
There is a returned remnant of Israel in the land today after about 2000 years of absence [this time lapse is not seen in the prophetic visions] .... and it is this generation of Israel who will experience the fulfillment of the 70th week that is coming [Luke 21:20-32]    

This is incorrect... The generation is NOT the generation of Jews who came back in 1948

I agree too! (Well, not about the "is coming" part  ::smile::)

If one looks, the generation Luke speaks of is the generation who SEE THESE THINGS TAKE PLACE, some of THEM will see Christ. Coming on the clouds for the rapture...

While you and I would disagree as to the nature of the harpadzo event, may I remind you that the "this generation" was used in context of a private conversation between Jesus and His four disciples:

Mark 13:3-4 - And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,  
4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?      

What would those disciples have thought Jesus meant by saying "this generation"?  He was, after all, speaking to them, right?

But you are right in that some would be alive to see Jesus.  I refer you to Jesus' own words on that subject:

Matthew 16:27-28 - For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.  
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.  

Mark 8:38 - Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.  
Mark 9:1 - And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.  

Luke 9:26-27 - For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.  
27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.   
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Mon Jan 09, 2012 - 18:57:13
"This is incorrect... The generation is NOT the generation of Jews who came back in 1948"


Show me where I said that it was the generation beginning in 1948 ..... you can't do it because I don't say it and have not on this forum

You have tried to misquote me before KB on other subjects

So I want you to prove that I have said the generation of Israel the Lord speaks of started in 1948

Again you will not be able to do this

When you behave like you do people watch you ......... telling the truth about things = credibility

The generation of the remnant part of His nation of Israel will be "the generation of the remnant part of His nation of Israel living at the time of the end of this present age

.....and not you, or anyone else knows when this end time setting will begin

So I would suggest that you think about throwing your critiques around the forum which are based on falsehood ..... this makes you look like an idiot

 
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: thethinker on Tue Jan 10, 2012 - 10:57:26
Linker erroneously said:
Quote
The generation of the remnant part of His nation of Israel will be "the generation of the remnant part of His nation of Israel living at the time of the end of this present age

There goes Linker posting his fairy tales again. Paul said that the remnant was being saved in HIS TIME and that they HAVE OBTAINED salvation..

Quote
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Tue Jan 10, 2012 - 11:21:19
Romans 11:5 - Even so then at this present time [almost 2,000 years ago] also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And where did this remnant come from?

It came from the house of Israel.  The Gospel of the kingdom was being preached in the Jewish synagogues!

Act_13:14  But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Act_13:15  And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

Act_14:1  And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.

Act_17:1  Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

Act_17:10  And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

Act_17:17  Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

Act_18:4  And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Act_18:7  And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

Act_18:8  And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Act_18:17  Then all the Greeks took Sosthenes, the chief ruler of the synagogue, and beat him before the judgment seat. And Gallio cared for none of those things.

Act_18:19  And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.

Act_18:26  And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Act_19:8  And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

Act_22:19  And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Act_26:11  And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

To the Jew first, remember?  The kingdom was not delayed by more than 2,000 years.  It was "at hand" exactly as Christ had said...
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: raggthyme2012 on Tue Jan 10, 2012 - 11:54:36
Romans 11:5 - Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And where did this remnant come from?

It came from the house of Israel.  The Gospel of the kingdom was being preached in the Jewish synagogues!

Act_13:14  But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

Act_13:15  And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

Act_14:1  And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.

Act_17:1  Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

Act_17:10  And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

Act_17:17  Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

Act_18:4  And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Act_18:7  And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

Act_18:8  And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Act_18:17  Then all the Greeks took Sosthenes, the chief ruler of the synagogue, and beat him before the judgment seat. And Gallio cared for none of those things.

Act_18:19  And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.

Act_18:26  And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Act_19:8  And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

Act_22:19  And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

Act_26:11  And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

To the Jew first, remember?  The kingdom was not delayed by more than 2,000 years.  It was "at hand" exactly as Christ had said...

Beautiful!
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Tue Jan 10, 2012 - 19:49:43
Problem with goodie's idea posted above .....  

First century Israel never received the kingdom ..... the Lord was rejected by the same

And here is what He said about this [Acts 1:6-7] .... the kingdom delayed for Israel

.... but this is going to change for a believing remnant of Israel at the end of this present age [Isaiah 11; 27:13; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 37; Daniel 9:24-27; Joel 3; Micah 4; 5; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Romans 11:25-36]

Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Tue Jan 10, 2012 - 20:03:43
Problem with goodie's idea posted above .....  

First century Israel never received the kingdom ..... the Lord was rejected by the same

And here is what He said about this [Acts 1:6-7] .... the kingdom delayed for Israel

.... but this is going to change for a believing remnant of Israel at the end of this present age [Isaiah 11; 27:13; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 37; Daniel 9:24-27; Joel 3; Micah 4; 5; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Romans 11:25-36]



Yeppers...just imagine all the wasted time that Paul put forth into preaching the Gospel of the kingdom in them thar synagogues...yesirrrreeeee, he sure was plum stupid.  Imagine that....the Holy Ghost which would reveal all truth especially in the area of things to come sure messed up for good ol' Paul...

Yessssirrreeeeee...all them that Jews that got saved and entered into the kingdom were just being fooled by the Holy Ghost.  That Holy Spirit character is sure one funny fellow...at least to Linker.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Tue Jan 10, 2012 - 20:11:58
I think you should put this to music goodie .... maybe write a little diddle and sell it

.... I think your response here is totally irrelevant ..... Israel did not receive the kingdom

The nation remained in unbelief and is the same today

I want you to explain to the forum what Paul explains about his people in Romans 11:25-26

.... and also compare the same with with Ezekiel 36

Just for starts ..... and then we can discuss much more from a biblical perspective on this matter
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: EdwardGoodie on Tue Jan 10, 2012 - 20:15:33
I think you should put this to music goodie .... maybe write a little diddle and sell it

.... I think your response here is totally irrelevant ..... Israel did not receive the kingdom

The nation remained in unbelief and is the same today

I want you to explain to the forum what Paul explains about his people in Romans 11:25-26

.... and also compare the same with with Ezekiel 36

Just for starts ..... and then we can discuss much more from a biblical perspective on this matter

Linker, you have been asked at least a hundred questions which you just ignore.

You have no King.  You have no kingdom.  Too bad.  I do.  Israel did not receive a physical kingdom but it does not come with observation.

physical , physical, physical...just like the Pharisees wishes...
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: Linker on Wed Jan 11, 2012 - 06:12:03
The preterist blends Israel's coming kingdom to be restored by Jesus Christ with the mystery kingdom of His church yet to be revealed; and at the same time claims "kingdom now" theology which includes only the preterists

You would be better off not to respond to me goodie .... it just makes you look incompetent .... you find youself at the bottom of the proficiency quotient every time

Do you know that people actually read these things?  
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: HeRoseFromTheDead on Tue Mar 27, 2012 - 20:31:03
Not one ounce of any of these things have already taken place in the past as the preterist declares
If you are a preterist I want a verse by verse explanation of each and the proof by accurate historical records that what you say happened in 70 A.D. is valid
Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

At the moment, I will only deal with Zechariah 14:5. The above rendition is a corruption of the original text. Zechariah 14:5 actually says:


There is a lot of evidence that this event has already occurred (search Internet for zechariah + azal + yasul for the proof). Additionally, the Israelis have identified the location of Azal due south of old Jerusalem and the Mount of Olives, which completely invalidates the version of Zechariah 14:5 that says people are to flee east through the Mount of Olives to Azal.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: HeRoseFromTheDead on Wed Mar 28, 2012 - 04:44:30
Did I understand what you just said?
Pure hobgoblin
Not a good idea to deliberately misrepresent the Lord's Word
.... give proof of "corruption of the original text"
I want your source and where you obtained it please .... all of it, and both verses in context
The rift "valley" will be created by the splitting of the Mount of Olives [this has never happened and did not in 70 AD]


You're the one bearing false witness of God in this matter, not me. I already told you how to find the proof. If you can't do something so simple as that, what's the point of having a discussion?

Your fairy tale of people fleeing east through a valley in the Mount of Olives to Azal is rendered impossible by the fact that the location of Azal as identified by the Israelis lies due south of both old Jerusalem and the Mount of Olives. It's common knowledge in Jerusalem where Azal is; here's an example from the 3rd paragraph of a blog of a graduate student living in Jerusalem (http://jerusalem-girl.blogspot.com/2010/10/geography-of-jerusalem.html):

Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: HeRoseFromTheDead on Wed Mar 28, 2012 - 16:23:17
And there is no point of discussion with the hardened hyper-preterist
...
Azal was a city east and then south of Jerusalem near Petra [the sheep pens, Bozarh] .... and the KJV posted above is not corrupted
...


Well firstly, I'm not a hyper-preterist, much less a hardened one. I consider hyper-preterism an abomination.

Secondly, in order to give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't just expressing your opinion, what evidence do you have that "Azal was a city east and then south of Jerusalem near Petra"? Your claim contradicts contemporary knowledge. As I mentioned, the location of Azal is common knowledge in Jerusalem. I provided one example; here is another found in the second paragraph of a page on the Jerusalem Segway Tour Company's website (http://www.jerusalemsegway.co.il/en-us/armon-hanatziv--background):

Quote
“At the foot of the ridge is the deep channel of Atzal River (Zechariah 14:5), which advances toward the Kidron Valley. Its Biblical name was preserved by the Arabs as Wadi Yasul
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: HeRoseFromTheDead on Wed Mar 28, 2012 - 20:40:11
Here's another example of Israeli recognition of Azal, or as they call it Nahal Azal (valley of Azal) - http://gaialab.asu.edu/DAAHL/SitesDataView.php?SiteNo=353104995 (http://gaialab.asu.edu/DAAHL/SitesDataView.php?SiteNo=353104995)

This is catalog entry in the Digital Archaeological Atlas of the Holy Land for Nahal Azal, which has archaeological significance due to many ancient tombs there. The satellite photo is a good shot of the valley, and you can zoom in and out, and change to map view to view its relation to Jerusalem. The southernmost tip of the Mount of Olives is visible in top right corner.  If you put the map in Terrain view (if not selectable, zoom out), you can actually read the name of the valley in Hebrew - נחל אצל - to the left of the red dot.

As you can see, Azal lies due south of Jerusalem, and southwest of the Mount of Olives. So the theory that Zechariah 14:5 refers to people fleeing east through a split Mount of Olives to Azal is impossible.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: HeRoseFromTheDead on Thu Mar 29, 2012 - 18:17:26
I decided to move my discussions to a new thread - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/ye-shall-not-flee-to-azal
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: HeRoseFromTheDead on Fri Mar 30, 2012 - 20:19:51
My opinion? Not so .... it is the very word of the living God
Anytime one come along and begins to pick what has been corrupted in the Bible this a sign of one who is mocking christianity

Really? Can you please tell me which of the following two verses is the word of God as given to Solomon?

Quote

Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner. Proverbs 11:31, King James Version

If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear? Proverbs 11:31, Septuagint


I looked at the source of your accusation against Zechariah 14:4-5 and I can tell you that the promoter is not a christian, but one of Judaism who does not believe in Jesus Christ.

Uh... no. Not even close. Wanna try again?
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: HeRoseFromTheDead on Fri Mar 30, 2012 - 21:33:51
The entire rant of this individual is false

Facts never matter to a closed mind.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: HeRoseFromTheDead on Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 06:38:10
If some of the scriptures of the Bible are corrupted [which they are not when rendered correctly], then there would be reason to question any of them ..... and this position creates doubt that the Bible is the Word of the living God in the first place

You obviously have little knowledge about the history and reality of the bible. You are the type of person who teaches faith in the bible instead of the living word of God.

Why didn't you answer my previous question? Can you please tell me which of the following two verses is the word of God as given to Solomon?

Quote

Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner. Proverbs 11:31, King James Version

If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear? Proverbs 11:31, Septuagint

Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: HeRoseFromTheDead on Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 07:47:48
..... you like the word "obviously" don't you

Obviously. And you, obviously, are a thread spammer. Why do you keep refusing to answer my question? Please tell me which of the following two verses is the word of God as given to Solomon?

Quote

Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner. Proverbs 11:31, King James Version

If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear? Proverbs 11:31, Septuagint

Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: HeRoseFromTheDead on Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 08:57:30
They both are. It is you who likes to make up the idea that there are significant differences.

The two verses are significantly different. Solomon didn't write both versions; somebody changed what Solomon wrote in one of the versions. The apostle Peter has clearly witnessed that the Septuagint version is what Solomon wrote, and therefore the word of God:

Quote

Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner. Proverbs 11:31, King James Version - FAIL

If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear? Proverbs 11:31, Septuagint

If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 1 Peter 4:18


This proves that the King James version has been corrupted. Your rationalization that they say the same thing does violence to the word of God and exhibits the kind of dishonesty that gives Christianity a bad name to those who honestly seek the truth.

Do you apply the same rationalization to the following two verses? Are you saying they are redundant, and are both the word of God?

Quote

And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Zechariah 14:5, King James Version

The valley between the hills will be filled in, yes, it will be blocked as far as Jasol, it will be filled in as it was by the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Zechariah 14:5, Septuagint


Let me ask you something ..... are you believer and follower of Jesus Christ who is the Word of God?

Yes.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: HeRoseFromTheDead on Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 11:08:35
Here are some direct parallel scriptures that define the future fleeing of a believing remnant part of Israel [Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-27; Luke 21:20-28; Revelation 12:6; 12:13-14]

This flight of the remnant is not a past event .... these future events have no precedent and will come to pass just as the Bible describes them .... and numerous and related other events are scheduled

It is witnessed somewhere that the Christians in Jerusalem and Judah fled to the mountains before the city's destruction in AD70. You have no warrant to reject that fulfillment based on the witness of history in order to speculate about future events that you know nothing about.

Regarding Zechariah 14:5, you avoided answering a pertinent question. Do you apply the same rationalization to the following two verses that you apply to Proverbs 11:31? Are you saying these verses are redundant, and are both the word of God?

Quote

And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Zechariah 14:5, King James Version

The valley between the hills will be filled in, yes, it will be blocked as far as Jasol, it will be filled in as it was by the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Zechariah 14:5, Septuagint

Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: HeRoseFromTheDead on Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 16:39:35
Rattle on son .... Joseph was not a prophet of the Word of God  

who is joseph? are you referring to josephus? I wasn't. i was referring to one of the early church fathers who wrote about this.

And the Mount of olives did not split in 70 A.D.

You don't really know that. no one does. the fact is that the verb that is usually translated split, can also be translated tear apart. josephus, who you apparently don't like, wrote that in king uzziah's day an earthquake caused a landslide that caused the western half of the mount of olives to tear apart from its eastern half and clog up the king's gardens in the kidron valley with landslide rubble. Israeli geologists verified josephus' account when they identified a landslide on the mount of olives adjacent to the kings' gardens; and there are photographs showing landslide rubble at the base of the mount of olives in exactly this spot.

I'm not responding to the rest of your comments because i said initially that i was only going to focus on zechariah 14:5.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: HeRoseFromTheDead on Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 07:18:08
...
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: HeRoseFromTheDead on Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 09:48:55
If the Mount of Olives fractured creating this [Zechariah 14:10-11] .... this would be recorded in the history books son .... no doubt about it ....

You're making an assumption regarding Zechariah 14:10-11. This is actually another example of the MT having a bad translation. For the full context, Zechariah 14:9 has been included with 14:10-11 below:

King James Version
Quote
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and [from] the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. And [men] shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. Zechariah 14:9-11

LXX
Quote
And the Lord shall be king over all the land; in that day, there shall be one Lord, and his name one encompassing all the land and the wilderness from Gabe unto Remmon south of Jerusalem. And Rama shall remain in its place. From the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, to the gate of the corners, and to the tower of Anameel, as far as the king’s winepresses, they shall dwell in the city; and there shall be no more any curse, and Jerusalem shall dwell securely. ​ Zechariah 14:9-11

The LXX translation that states the lord's dominion will encompass the whole land of Judah makes far more sense than one that says all of the land will be leveled as a plain. This prophecy was written about Judah and Jerusalem, and the geographic names mentioned represent their southern and northern borders.

The "splitting" by the Lord has never taken place, but it will happen just as the vision has it .... the same as He divided the waters of the Red Sea to create a way of escape for Israelites out of Egyptian bondage, so will He do the same for a believing remnant of Israel for escape from Satan's beast and followers [Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

A rending, or "splitting", of the Mount of Olives has happened, and I can present geologic, photographic, archaeologocal and historical evidence to prove it.

And notice this [14:11; 14:14] .... Jerusalem was not safely inhabited by victorious Israelites just after the Roman invasions in 70 AD

You're trying to use your interpretation of scripture to prove your interpretation of scripture. Opinion doesn't prove opinion.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: HeRoseFromTheDead on Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 13:45:11
You are in deep trouble son .....

Now why would I be in trouble? If I'm not speaking the truth you should be able to refute my facts with something other than threats and opinion. But if you can't refute what I say because it's the truth, why don't you believe me?
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: HeRoseFromTheDead on Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 13:56:51
Yes I can refute your story hands down .... by using the prophetic scriptures of the Lord's Word

Then do it, and keep your opinion and silly threats to yourself.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: HeRoseFromTheDead on Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 14:49:29
Not a chance son .... you are a dreamer

You sure have a high opinion of yourself without much to back it up.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Thu Jan 02, 2020 - 06:28:17
This is an ancient post that I have taken note of often in past years.  The original so-called “challenge” for a Preterist to exegete this Zechariah chapter I have already done before on other Preterist websites.  I could do it here also verse by verse, but it would be quite lengthy, even more so than my typical long-winded style.

I would like to contradict the title of this post, though.  Let me say one thing - I ABSOLUTELY LOVE THE BOOK OF ZECHARIAH.  And I am a Preterist.  It proves BOTH the past destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 with Christ bodily returning to the Mount of Olives at that time (which broke apart on that occasion), AND it also contributes to proving a THIRD COMING of Christ in our future at the time of year the Feast of Tabernacles would have ordinarily been celebrated.

The poster who called himself “HeRoseFromTheDead” has provided some valuable information here regarding the correct LXX rendering of the Zechariah 14:4-5 verses.  I am indebted to them for clarifying this passage for me long ago when I first read this.  I definitely remember sitting in the hospital’s cardiac waiting room while a family member was getting five heart stents put in, reading and meditating on these verses in the Septuagint version I had brought with me.  The whole text came to light then, and I have been passionately devoted to the book of Zechariah ever since.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: robycop3 on Thu Jan 02, 2020 - 11:10:19
  You didn't contemplate enough on the Zech verses. Jesus did NOT return in 70 AD. That's pure imagination. The ONLY return He mentioned was to occur immediately after the great trib had ended, & that event hasn't uet happened.

  The Mt. of Olives has NOT split into a great valley as some say. That area has been occupied for millenia, with the Mt. being a landmark that whole time. had it split apart, history boox would be replete with accounts.

  And you can't have it both ways. You said earlier that Jesus came in the air for the saints, & now you say He touched down on the Mt. of Olives. TRUTH is, He has NOT done either one ! he will only return once, & that'll be permanent. He is to occupy David's throne FOREVER. yes, I know Jesus will step aside for His Father at the end of the millenium, but then, was not David the king Under God himself?

  You also need to study some history. The events of 66-70 AD were the "days of vengeance" Jesus declared against that generation of jews. their punishment that began in 135-136 AD when Hadrian expelled them from their land was much-greater & of much-longer duration. That was for their rejection of Jesus, and for His murder. The Jews prolonged that punishment by continuing to reject Him.

  I'm not trying to simply argue with you - I'm trying to give you reasons to get that pret garbage outta your head.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: lea on Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 19:02:20
Not one ounce of any of these things have already taken place in the past as the preterist declares

If you are a preterist I want a verse by verse explanation of each and the proof by accurate historical records that what you say happened in 70 A.D. is valid

If no response, I will show how each event has never taken place in the past for the benefit of the forum

Zechariah
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
Not until you show me you know what this passage means in Zech14:10-11,

 Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.

11
The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Oh, maybe it's you that hates that prophet!
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: 3 Resurrections on Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 20:43:30
Hi robycop3,

Christ both stood on the Mount of Olives to begin with on AD 70’s Pentecost day, and then gathered His resurrected saints to meet Him in the air as He brought them with Him back to the Father in heaven.  This is not a contradiction of two activities as you assume.  It’s what Christ promised the disciples He would do for them; “And if I go, I will come again and RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF, that where I am, there ye may be also.”  This is a scenario that does NOT include Christ remaining on this planet on that particular occasion, as will likely occur later at the close of human history.

The eastern gate of the temple was the portal through which the resurrected saints left the city to join Christ in the air as they all left this earth together back then in AD 70.  Remember that eastern gate of Zerubbabel’s rebuilt temple court in Ezekiel 46:1-3?  The people were to worship facing that eastern gate in the sabbaths and the new moons back in those days.  It was a gate by which only the high priest “prince” could enter and leave the temple courts, and was to remain shut except for the sabbath day of the week and on the day of the new moon.

This worship of the people facing this eastern gate was to symbolize the location - and the timing - of the Messiah’s return to gather His resurrected saints through that eastern gate.   Since this particular temple with its eastern gate was destroyed in AD 70, that shows us that the fulfillment of the purpose for that eastern gate at Christ’s return took place JUST BEFORE that eastern gate was destroyed along with the Temple in AD 70.  What we now live in is the New Jerusalem in this New Covenant Age, whose gates are NEVER SHUT (Rev. 21:25).

You have said that the only return Christ mentioned was to take place after the “Great Tribulation” and that you think that unequaled tribulation period hasn’t happened yet.  This also is a flat contradiction of some very plain verses. 

Apparently you think the “days of vengeance” and the “Great Tribulation” are totally different periods.  Not so.  According to Luke 21:22-23, they are exactly the same thing.  “For these be the DAYS OF VENGEANCE, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.  But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!” (those days of vengeance) “for there shall be *GREAT DISTRESS* (great tribulation) IN THE LAND, and wrath upon THIS people.”  (meaning “THIS GENERATION” living in Christ’s days that wouldn’t pass away until all those “days of vengeance”/ “great distress / tribulation” had passed (Luke 21:32). 

And that’s “DAYS”, by the way - not almost two MILLENNIA of vengeance and judgment until Hitler’s holocaust.  The blood curse the high priests called down upon themselves was upon the families of a SINGLE generation that killed the Messiah in AD 33 - not every person since AD 70 who has ever followed Judaism. 

And the Zechariah 14:4-5 LXX verses never predicted a split of the Mount of Olives that would create a valley.  That Zech. 14:4-5 LXX text said the Kidron Valley would be “BLOCKED UP” as far as Azal, which is just south of the city of Jerusalem.  That means the Kidron Valley was filled in with rubble from the earthquake that shook the mountain and broke it into rubble that slid down the mountain, just like it did in King Uzziah’s days.  A genuine earthquake in King Uzziah’s days was going to be duplicated IN THE SAME MANNER at Christ’s AD 70 coming.  Which it did, and which has been documented and analyzed by archaeologists, even though you still are turning a blind eye to the physical evidence.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: robycop3 on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 05:55:05
  No, Jesus DID NOT RETURN in 70 AD ! That's so silly !
 
  Nothing is said in Scripture about the valley created when the Mt. splits being filled back in.

  The "days of vengeance" were for the murders of all the righteous up til the time Jesus declared it. The later punishments were for the rejection & murder of Jesus, & were prolonged by their continuing rejection of Him. They WERE separate events. remember, the great trib will be WORLDWIDE, not just upon the Jews.

  Your pret scenario is all imagination & guesswork, not fitting Scripture nor history.
 
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: lea on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 12:49:51
  No, Jesus DID NOT RETURN in 70 AD ! That's so silly !
 
  Nothing is said in Scripture about the valley created when the Mt. splits being filled back in.

  The "days of vengeance" were for the murders of all the righteous up til the time Jesus declared it. The later punishments were for the rejection & murder of Jesus, & were prolonged by their continuing rejection of Him. They WERE separate events. remember, the great trib will be WORLDWIDE, not just upon the Jews.

  Your pret scenario is all imagination & guesswork, not fitting Scripture nor history.
 

And yours is all fiction, doesn't fit in reality, because you don't understand prophetic language in the Bible.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: robycop3 on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 14:52:01
And yours is all fiction, doesn't fit in reality, because you don't understand prophetic language in the Bible.

 I understand English quite well. And I know you prets have a habit of trying to reduce Scriptures that are inconvenient for your false doctrine to "figurative/symbolic" status.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: lea on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 17:30:28
I understand English quite well. And I know you prets have a habit of trying to reduce Scriptures that are inconvenient for your false doctrine to "figurative/symbolic" status.

You are all over the place saying nothing.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: robycop3 on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 17:58:12
You are all over the place saying nothing.

WEeell, look who's talkin' !

"I know this prophecy is fulfilled cuz Preston said it was !"

"I know that prophecy was fulfilled cuz Gentry said it was !"

"I know this here prophecy aint fulfilled cuz it's figurative/symbolic !"

...and so on...
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: lea on Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 18:05:55
WEeell, look who's talkin' !

"I know this prophecy is fulfilled cuz Preston said it was !"

"I know that prophecy was fulfilled cuz Gentry said it was !"

"I know this here prophecy aint fulfilled cuz it's figurative/symbolic !"

...and so on...

At least he is a scholar. Futurists are afraid to debate him because they get overruled every time.

 You take your clues from jokers like Hagee and Ice.

Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: robycop3 on Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 07:22:57
At least he is a scholar. Futurists are afraid to debate him because they get overruled every time.

 You take your clues from jokers like Hagee and Ice.

 Some 'scholar', believing the pret garbage! Actually, he just wantsta sell boox, & he depends upon gullible people like you to buy'em.

  And I'm not gonna play "MAH skoller kin whup YER skoller". I made my own deductions by studying Scripture and history.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: lea on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 11:39:26
Some 'scholar', believing the pret garbage! Actually, he just wantsta sell boox, & he depends upon gullible people like you to buy'em.

  And I'm not gonna play "MAH skoller kin whup YER skoller". I made my own deductions by studying Scripture and history.

You are alone with your deductions. 
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: robycop3 on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 13:58:40
You are alone with your deductions.

  Not at all. Prets are on the "endangered species" list.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: lea on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 14:52:30
  Not at all. Prets are on the "endangered species" list.

But what cult are you then?
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: robycop3 on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 18:21:59
But what cult are you then?

 None, unless you consider indy fundy Baptist a cult. Preterism aint a whole cult; it's merely a false doctrine.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: lea on Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 19:59:48
None, unless you consider indy fundy Baptist a cult. Preterism aint a whole cult; it's merely a false doctrine.

Yours is a juvenile, failing doctrine. Not many people are being brainwashed as you were.



Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: robycop3 on Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 05:53:35
Yours is a juvenile, failing doctrine. Not many people are being brainwashed as you were.

  Not a bit brainwashed; I just know Scripture & history better than you do.
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: lea on Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 10:22:32
  Not a bit brainwashed; I just know Scripture & history better than you do.

You read one history book, but now you do nothing positive?
Title: Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
Post by: robycop3 on Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 10:23:16
You read one history book, but now you do nothing positive?

MANY more than just one history book.

And those many boox are unbiased, unlike the bunk you're read from Preston, Gentry, & whatever other quax.