Author Topic: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates  (Read 9488 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline HeRoseFromTheDead

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
  • Manna: 1
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #105 on: Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 11:08:35 »
Here are some direct parallel scriptures that define the future fleeing of a believing remnant part of Israel [Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-27; Luke 21:20-28; Revelation 12:6; 12:13-14]

This flight of the remnant is not a past event .... these future events have no precedent and will come to pass just as the Bible describes them .... and numerous and related other events are scheduled

It is witnessed somewhere that the Christians in Jerusalem and Judah fled to the mountains before the city's destruction in AD70. You have no warrant to reject that fulfillment based on the witness of history in order to speculate about future events that you know nothing about.

Regarding Zechariah 14:5, you avoided answering a pertinent question. Do you apply the same rationalization to the following two verses that you apply to Proverbs 11:31? Are you saying these verses are redundant, and are both the word of God?

Quote

And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Zechariah 14:5, King James Version

The valley between the hills will be filled in, yes, it will be blocked as far as Jasol, it will be filled in as it was by the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Zechariah 14:5, Septuagint


Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #105 on: Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 11:08:35 »

Offline HeRoseFromTheDead

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
  • Manna: 1
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #106 on: Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 16:39:35 »
Rattle on son .... Joseph was not a prophet of the Word of God  

who is joseph? are you referring to josephus? I wasn't. i was referring to one of the early church fathers who wrote about this.

And the Mount of olives did not split in 70 A.D.

You don't really know that. no one does. the fact is that the verb that is usually translated split, can also be translated tear apart. josephus, who you apparently don't like, wrote that in king uzziah's day an earthquake caused a landslide that caused the western half of the mount of olives to tear apart from its eastern half and clog up the king's gardens in the kidron valley with landslide rubble. Israeli geologists verified josephus' account when they identified a landslide on the mount of olives adjacent to the kings' gardens; and there are photographs showing landslide rubble at the base of the mount of olives in exactly this spot.

I'm not responding to the rest of your comments because i said initially that i was only going to focus on zechariah 14:5.

Offline HeRoseFromTheDead

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
  • Manna: 1
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #107 on: Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 07:18:08 »
...

Offline HeRoseFromTheDead

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
  • Manna: 1
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #108 on: Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 09:48:55 »
If the Mount of Olives fractured creating this [Zechariah 14:10-11] .... this would be recorded in the history books son .... no doubt about it ....

You're making an assumption regarding Zechariah 14:10-11. This is actually another example of the MT having a bad translation. For the full context, Zechariah 14:9 has been included with 14:10-11 below:

King James Version
Quote
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and [from] the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. And [men] shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. Zechariah 14:9-11

LXX
Quote
And the Lord shall be king over all the land; in that day, there shall be one Lord, and his name one encompassing all the land and the wilderness from Gabe unto Remmon south of Jerusalem. And Rama shall remain in its place. From the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, to the gate of the corners, and to the tower of Anameel, as far as the king’s winepresses, they shall dwell in the city; and there shall be no more any curse, and Jerusalem shall dwell securely. ​ Zechariah 14:9-11

The LXX translation that states the lord's dominion will encompass the whole land of Judah makes far more sense than one that says all of the land will be leveled as a plain. This prophecy was written about Judah and Jerusalem, and the geographic names mentioned represent their southern and northern borders.

The "splitting" by the Lord has never taken place, but it will happen just as the vision has it .... the same as He divided the waters of the Red Sea to create a way of escape for Israelites out of Egyptian bondage, so will He do the same for a believing remnant of Israel for escape from Satan's beast and followers [Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

A rending, or "splitting", of the Mount of Olives has happened, and I can present geologic, photographic, archaeologocal and historical evidence to prove it.

And notice this [14:11; 14:14] .... Jerusalem was not safely inhabited by victorious Israelites just after the Roman invasions in 70 AD

You're trying to use your interpretation of scripture to prove your interpretation of scripture. Opinion doesn't prove opinion.

Offline HeRoseFromTheDead

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
  • Manna: 1
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #109 on: Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 13:45:11 »
You are in deep trouble son .....

Now why would I be in trouble? If I'm not speaking the truth you should be able to refute my facts with something other than threats and opinion. But if you can't refute what I say because it's the truth, why don't you believe me?

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #109 on: Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 13:45:11 »



Offline HeRoseFromTheDead

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
  • Manna: 1
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #110 on: Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 13:56:51 »
Yes I can refute your story hands down .... by using the prophetic scriptures of the Lord's Word

Then do it, and keep your opinion and silly threats to yourself.

Offline HeRoseFromTheDead

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 37
  • Manna: 1
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #111 on: Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 14:49:29 »
Not a chance son .... you are a dreamer

You sure have a high opinion of yourself without much to back it up.

Offline 3 Resurrections

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 807
  • Manna: 25
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #112 on: Thu Jan 02, 2020 - 06:28:17 »
This is an ancient post that I have taken note of often in past years.  The original so-called “challenge” for a Preterist to exegete this Zechariah chapter I have already done before on other Preterist websites.  I could do it here also verse by verse, but it would be quite lengthy, even more so than my typical long-winded style.

I would like to contradict the title of this post, though.  Let me say one thing - I ABSOLUTELY LOVE THE BOOK OF ZECHARIAH.  And I am a Preterist.  It proves BOTH the past destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 with Christ bodily returning to the Mount of Olives at that time (which broke apart on that occasion), AND it also contributes to proving a THIRD COMING of Christ in our future at the time of year the Feast of Tabernacles would have ordinarily been celebrated.

The poster who called himself “HeRoseFromTheDead” has provided some valuable information here regarding the correct LXX rendering of the Zechariah 14:4-5 verses.  I am indebted to them for clarifying this passage for me long ago when I first read this.  I definitely remember sitting in the hospital’s cardiac waiting room while a family member was getting five heart stents put in, reading and meditating on these verses in the Septuagint version I had brought with me.  The whole text came to light then, and I have been passionately devoted to the book of Zechariah ever since.

Offline robycop3

  • Mr.
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 591
  • Manna: 12
  • Gender: Male
  • A wet bird never flies at night - Sam Hall
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #113 on: Thu Jan 02, 2020 - 11:10:19 »
  You didn't contemplate enough on the Zech verses. Jesus did NOT return in 70 AD. That's pure imagination. The ONLY return He mentioned was to occur immediately after the great trib had ended, & that event hasn't uet happened.

  The Mt. of Olives has NOT split into a great valley as some say. That area has been occupied for millenia, with the Mt. being a landmark that whole time. had it split apart, history boox would be replete with accounts.

  And you can't have it both ways. You said earlier that Jesus came in the air for the saints, & now you say He touched down on the Mt. of Olives. TRUTH is, He has NOT done either one ! he will only return once, & that'll be permanent. He is to occupy David's throne FOREVER. yes, I know Jesus will step aside for His Father at the end of the millenium, but then, was not David the king Under God himself?

  You also need to study some history. The events of 66-70 AD were the "days of vengeance" Jesus declared against that generation of jews. their punishment that began in 135-136 AD when Hadrian expelled them from their land was much-greater & of much-longer duration. That was for their rejection of Jesus, and for His murder. The Jews prolonged that punishment by continuing to reject Him.

  I'm not trying to simply argue with you - I'm trying to give you reasons to get that pret garbage outta your head.

Offline lea

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 550
  • Manna: 8
  • I am rezar
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #114 on: Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 19:02:20 »
Not one ounce of any of these things have already taken place in the past as the preterist declares

If you are a preterist I want a verse by verse explanation of each and the proof by accurate historical records that what you say happened in 70 A.D. is valid

If no response, I will show how each event has never taken place in the past for the benefit of the forum

Zechariah
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
Not until you show me you know what this passage means in Zech14:10-11,

 Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.

11
The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.


Oh, maybe it's you that hates that prophet!

Offline 3 Resurrections

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 807
  • Manna: 25
  • (T)ogether (E)veryone (A)chieves (M)ore
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #115 on: Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 20:43:30 »
Hi robycop3,

Christ both stood on the Mount of Olives to begin with on AD 70’s Pentecost day, and then gathered His resurrected saints to meet Him in the air as He brought them with Him back to the Father in heaven.  This is not a contradiction of two activities as you assume.  It’s what Christ promised the disciples He would do for them; “And if I go, I will come again and RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF, that where I am, there ye may be also.”  This is a scenario that does NOT include Christ remaining on this planet on that particular occasion, as will likely occur later at the close of human history.

The eastern gate of the temple was the portal through which the resurrected saints left the city to join Christ in the air as they all left this earth together back then in AD 70.  Remember that eastern gate of Zerubbabel’s rebuilt temple court in Ezekiel 46:1-3?  The people were to worship facing that eastern gate in the sabbaths and the new moons back in those days.  It was a gate by which only the high priest “prince” could enter and leave the temple courts, and was to remain shut except for the sabbath day of the week and on the day of the new moon.

This worship of the people facing this eastern gate was to symbolize the location - and the timing - of the Messiah’s return to gather His resurrected saints through that eastern gate.   Since this particular temple with its eastern gate was destroyed in AD 70, that shows us that the fulfillment of the purpose for that eastern gate at Christ’s return took place JUST BEFORE that eastern gate was destroyed along with the Temple in AD 70.  What we now live in is the New Jerusalem in this New Covenant Age, whose gates are NEVER SHUT (Rev. 21:25).

You have said that the only return Christ mentioned was to take place after the “Great Tribulation” and that you think that unequaled tribulation period hasn’t happened yet.  This also is a flat contradiction of some very plain verses. 

Apparently you think the “days of vengeance” and the “Great Tribulation” are totally different periods.  Not so.  According to Luke 21:22-23, they are exactly the same thing.  “For these be the DAYS OF VENGEANCE, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.  But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!” (those days of vengeance) “for there shall be *GREAT DISTRESS* (great tribulation) IN THE LAND, and wrath upon THIS people.”  (meaning “THIS GENERATION” living in Christ’s days that wouldn’t pass away until all those “days of vengeance”/ “great distress / tribulation” had passed (Luke 21:32). 

And that’s “DAYS”, by the way - not almost two MILLENNIA of vengeance and judgment until Hitler’s holocaust.  The blood curse the high priests called down upon themselves was upon the families of a SINGLE generation that killed the Messiah in AD 33 - not every person since AD 70 who has ever followed Judaism. 

And the Zechariah 14:4-5 LXX verses never predicted a split of the Mount of Olives that would create a valley.  That Zech. 14:4-5 LXX text said the Kidron Valley would be “BLOCKED UP” as far as Azal, which is just south of the city of Jerusalem.  That means the Kidron Valley was filled in with rubble from the earthquake that shook the mountain and broke it into rubble that slid down the mountain, just like it did in King Uzziah’s days.  A genuine earthquake in King Uzziah’s days was going to be duplicated IN THE SAME MANNER at Christ’s AD 70 coming.  Which it did, and which has been documented and analyzed by archaeologists, even though you still are turning a blind eye to the physical evidence.

Offline robycop3

  • Mr.
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 591
  • Manna: 12
  • Gender: Male
  • A wet bird never flies at night - Sam Hall
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #116 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 05:55:05 »
  No, Jesus DID NOT RETURN in 70 AD ! That's so silly !
 
  Nothing is said in Scripture about the valley created when the Mt. splits being filled back in.

  The "days of vengeance" were for the murders of all the righteous up til the time Jesus declared it. The later punishments were for the rejection & murder of Jesus, & were prolonged by their continuing rejection of Him. They WERE separate events. remember, the great trib will be WORLDWIDE, not just upon the Jews.

  Your pret scenario is all imagination & guesswork, not fitting Scripture nor history.
 

Offline lea

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 550
  • Manna: 8
  • I am rezar
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #117 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 12:49:51 »
  No, Jesus DID NOT RETURN in 70 AD ! That's so silly !
 
  Nothing is said in Scripture about the valley created when the Mt. splits being filled back in.

  The "days of vengeance" were for the murders of all the righteous up til the time Jesus declared it. The later punishments were for the rejection & murder of Jesus, & were prolonged by their continuing rejection of Him. They WERE separate events. remember, the great trib will be WORLDWIDE, not just upon the Jews.

  Your pret scenario is all imagination & guesswork, not fitting Scripture nor history.
 

And yours is all fiction, doesn't fit in reality, because you don't understand prophetic language in the Bible.

Offline robycop3

  • Mr.
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 591
  • Manna: 12
  • Gender: Male
  • A wet bird never flies at night - Sam Hall
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #118 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 14:52:01 »
And yours is all fiction, doesn't fit in reality, because you don't understand prophetic language in the Bible.

 I understand English quite well. And I know you prets have a habit of trying to reduce Scriptures that are inconvenient for your false doctrine to "figurative/symbolic" status.

Offline lea

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 550
  • Manna: 8
  • I am rezar
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #119 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 17:30:28 »
I understand English quite well. And I know you prets have a habit of trying to reduce Scriptures that are inconvenient for your false doctrine to "figurative/symbolic" status.

You are all over the place saying nothing.

Offline robycop3

  • Mr.
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 591
  • Manna: 12
  • Gender: Male
  • A wet bird never flies at night - Sam Hall
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #120 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 17:58:12 »
You are all over the place saying nothing.

WEeell, look who's talkin' !

"I know this prophecy is fulfilled cuz Preston said it was !"

"I know that prophecy was fulfilled cuz Gentry said it was !"

"I know this here prophecy aint fulfilled cuz it's figurative/symbolic !"

...and so on...

Offline lea

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 550
  • Manna: 8
  • I am rezar
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #121 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 18:05:55 »
WEeell, look who's talkin' !

"I know this prophecy is fulfilled cuz Preston said it was !"

"I know that prophecy was fulfilled cuz Gentry said it was !"

"I know this here prophecy aint fulfilled cuz it's figurative/symbolic !"

...and so on...

At least he is a scholar. Futurists are afraid to debate him because they get overruled every time.

 You take your clues from jokers like Hagee and Ice.


Offline robycop3

  • Mr.
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 591
  • Manna: 12
  • Gender: Male
  • A wet bird never flies at night - Sam Hall
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #122 on: Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 07:22:57 »
At least he is a scholar. Futurists are afraid to debate him because they get overruled every time.

 You take your clues from jokers like Hagee and Ice.

 Some 'scholar', believing the pret garbage! Actually, he just wantsta sell boox, & he depends upon gullible people like you to buy'em.

  And I'm not gonna play "MAH skoller kin whup YER skoller". I made my own deductions by studying Scripture and history.

Offline lea

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 550
  • Manna: 8
  • I am rezar
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #123 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 11:39:26 »
Some 'scholar', believing the pret garbage! Actually, he just wantsta sell boox, & he depends upon gullible people like you to buy'em.

  And I'm not gonna play "MAH skoller kin whup YER skoller". I made my own deductions by studying Scripture and history.

You are alone with your deductions. 

Offline robycop3

  • Mr.
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 591
  • Manna: 12
  • Gender: Male
  • A wet bird never flies at night - Sam Hall
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #124 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 13:58:40 »
You are alone with your deductions.

  Not at all. Prets are on the "endangered species" list.

Offline lea

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 550
  • Manna: 8
  • I am rezar
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #125 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 14:52:30 »
  Not at all. Prets are on the "endangered species" list.

But what cult are you then?

Offline robycop3

  • Mr.
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 591
  • Manna: 12
  • Gender: Male
  • A wet bird never flies at night - Sam Hall
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #126 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 18:21:59 »
But what cult are you then?

 None, unless you consider indy fundy Baptist a cult. Preterism aint a whole cult; it's merely a false doctrine.

Offline lea

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 550
  • Manna: 8
  • I am rezar
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #127 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 19:59:48 »
None, unless you consider indy fundy Baptist a cult. Preterism aint a whole cult; it's merely a false doctrine.

Yours is a juvenile, failing doctrine. Not many people are being brainwashed as you were.




Offline robycop3

  • Mr.
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 591
  • Manna: 12
  • Gender: Male
  • A wet bird never flies at night - Sam Hall
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #128 on: Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 05:53:35 »
Yours is a juvenile, failing doctrine. Not many people are being brainwashed as you were.

  Not a bit brainwashed; I just know Scripture & history better than you do.

Offline lea

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 550
  • Manna: 8
  • I am rezar
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #129 on: Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 10:22:32 »
  Not a bit brainwashed; I just know Scripture & history better than you do.

You read one history book, but now you do nothing positive?

Offline robycop3

  • Mr.
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 591
  • Manna: 12
  • Gender: Male
  • A wet bird never flies at night - Sam Hall
Re: The Prophet that the Preterist Hates
« Reply #130 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 10:23:16 »
You read one history book, but now you do nothing positive?

MANY more than just one history book.

And those many boox are unbiased, unlike the bunk you're read from Preston, Gentry, & whatever other quax.

 

     
anything