Author Topic: This generation?  (Read 4711 times)

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Offline john collins

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This generation?
« on: Mon Mar 05, 2012 - 19:51:41 »
Matthew 24. You know what I mean. Was Jesus wrong? C.S Lewis thought so. What say you?

EdwardGoodie

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #1 on: Mon Mar 05, 2012 - 20:14:12 »
Matthew 24. You know what I mean. Was Jesus wrong? C.S Lewis thought so. What say you?

"Was Jesus wrong?"

How can you even ask that question?  Jesus is NEVER wrong.  If He said it would be that first century generation, then you should believe Him.  If you cant believe Him, then perhaps Buddhism or Shintoism is best suited for your purposes...

Offline john collins

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #2 on: Mon Mar 05, 2012 - 20:40:18 »
Matthew 24. You know what I mean. Was Jesus wrong? C.S Lewis thought so. What say you?

"Was Jesus wrong?"

How can you even ask that question?  Jesus is NEVER wrong.  If He said it would be that first century generation, then you should believe Him.  If you cant believe Him, then perhaps Buddhism or Shintoism is best suited for your purposes...

So it was that first generation?

Offline john collins

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #3 on: Mon Mar 05, 2012 - 21:18:55 »
If a teacher stood before you today in junior high school history class and spoke of the time when President Kennedy was assassinated... and they said "This generation knew what it was like to have their popular leader struck down."

Would you think the teacher was referring to this generation seated in their classroom today?

Or would you interpret it as meaning THAT generation that lived when Kennedy was assassinated?

The same communicative logic applies to Jesus' words.

He said the generation that sees all the signs he just spoke of will not pass until all is fulfilled.

It's not rocket science folks.


Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

And this?

inthenow

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #4 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 00:18:47 »
Mat 16:28  Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

"coming" in the greek that it was written in is "erchomani" which means appear
And some saw the son of man appear in His kingdom six days later, they saw Moses and Elijah too.

Mat 17:1  And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2  And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3  And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.


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Re: This generation?
« Reply #4 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 00:18:47 »



EdwardGoodie

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #5 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 09:54:09 »
Mat 16:28  Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

"coming" in the greek that it was written in is "erchomani" which means appear
And some saw the son of man appear in His kingdom six days later, they saw Moses and Elijah too.

Mat 17:1  And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2  And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3  And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.



So, what you are saying, and what you expect us to believe by your exegesis is that MOST of the people who were there had DIED in that extremely short six (Mt 16, Mk 8) to eight (Luke 9:28) day period!!  Must have been one of those 24-hour plagues... ::smile:: (sorry, couldn't resist)

Not a chance!

When you attempted an exegesis of this passage, why didn't that question cross your mind?

Matthew 16:27-28 - For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.  
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.  


Why didn't these questions ALSO cross your mind?

1.  Were the angels present in that vision as well?
2.  Was every man rewarded according to their works at the time of that vision?
3.  Were those of that first century generation ashamed because of the vision? (Mark 8:38)

Looks like the transfiguration event comes nowhere even close to the fulfillment...

Perhaps viewing the transfiguration event like this might help:

1.  First we have Moses and Elijah in the vision.  They represent the Law and the Prophets.
2.  Then they are gone from the vision and only Christ is left.

Could this vision be representative of what would take place at Calvary when the Law was nailed to the cross?
Could this vision be representative of the old covenant passing away and only the new covenant in place?
Could this represent the inauguration of the new covenant at Calvary?

I believe Jesus when he said that SOME would still be alive[/b] when he would come:

1.  In His Father's glory
2.  In His own glory (Luke 9:26)
3.  In the glory of the holy angels (Luke 9:26)
4.  With His angels
5.  To reward every man according to his work
6.  In His kingdom
7.  When those living would see the kingdom of God (Luke 9:27)
8.  In their first century adulterous and sinful generation (Mark 8:38)
9.  That those of that first century generation would be ashamed at Christ's coming (Mark 8:38)

And if you think that those alive would only be of His 12 disciples, then think again:

Mark 8:34- And when he had called the people unto him WITH his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.  

You might be interested in knowing that the idea of every man being rewarded according to his own work is strictly from a "second coming" theme:

Revelation 22:12 - And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.  

Perhaps your understanding of this tri-harmonial event has increased.  I hope so.




« Last Edit: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 10:00:58 by EdwardGoodie »

thethinker

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #6 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 10:30:58 »
Mat 16:28  Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

"coming" in the greek that it was written in is "erchomani" which means appear
And some saw the son of man appear in His kingdom six days later, they saw Moses and Elijah too.

Mat 17:1  And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2  And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3  And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.



First, you totally ignore the context. Jesus added, "Then He shall REWARD every man according to his works." Did Jesus reward every man according to his works at His transfiguration?

Second, Jesus also told Caiaphas that he would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds. Was Caiaphas present at the transfiguration?

Third, if you can apply second coming language figuratively to His transfiguration, then we may apply that language figuratively too.

thinker

inthenow

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #7 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 21:25:11 »
My post was short enough, but you don't understand.
I didn't refer to christ's second coming but to His appearing in His Kingdom, which some witnessed as told by Jesus six days earlier.

john collins implied a preterists view and i showed that it's not necessarily referring to a preterist view..
You posted about nothing i said, but your own imagination of what i said, and another poster followed you in that same confusion.

You also will have to get rid of that know all and accusing attitude if you are to do well.

EdwardGoodie:
So, what you are saying, and what you expect us to believe
And if you think that those alive would only be of His 12 disciples, then think again:
Perhaps your understanding of this tri-harmonial event has increased.  I hope so.

Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #8 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 21:39:16 »
If a teacher stood before you today in junior high school history class and spoke of the time when President Kennedy was assassinated... and they said "This generation knew what it was like to have their popular leader struck down."

Would you think the teacher was referring to this generation seated in their classroom today?

Or would you interpret it as meaning THAT generation that lived when Kennedy was assassinated?

The same communicative logic applies to Jesus' words.

He said the generation that sees all the signs he just spoke of will not pass until all is fulfilled.

It's not rocket science folks.


Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

And this?

Matthew 17:1-8 was a peek into the future.

1 Corinthians 15:1-6 (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

He came to Paul on several occasions and to John in Revelation who actually saw him sitting on the throne of the Father.


Lehigh

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #9 on: Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 11:57:18 »
If a teacher stood before you today in junior high school history class and spoke of the time when President Kennedy was assassinated... and they said "This generation knew what it was like to have their popular leader struck down."

Would you think the teacher was referring to this generation seated in their classroom today?

Or would you interpret it as meaning THAT generation that lived when Kennedy was assassinated?

The same communicative logic applies to Jesus' words.

He said the generation that sees all the signs he just spoke of will not pass until all is fulfilled.

It's not rocket science folks.


Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

And this?

Matthew 17:1-8 was a peek into the future.

1 Corinthians 15:1-6 (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

He came to Paul on several occasions and to John in Revelation who actually saw him sitting on the throne of the Father.



You must not have passed English grammar and sentence construction! 

"This" pen shall not run out of ink until my letter is written.  Am I talking about another pen? Am I talking about "that" pen which will be sold 2,000 years from now?

Accept the truth. It's blantantly obvious!

inthenow

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #10 on: Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 17:31:08 »
If a teacher stood before you today in junior high school history class and spoke of the time when President Kennedy was assassinated... and they said "This generation knew what it was like to have their popular leader struck down."

Would you think the teacher was referring to this generation seated in their classroom today?

Or would you interpret it as meaning THAT generation that lived when Kennedy was assassinated?

The same communicative logic applies to Jesus' words.

He said the generation that sees all the signs he just spoke of will not pass until all is fulfilled.

It's not rocket science folks.


Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

And this?

Matthew 17:1-8 was a peek into the future.

1 Corinthians 15:1-6 (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

He came to Paul on several occasions and to John in Revelation who actually saw him sitting on the throne of the Father.



You must not have passed English grammar and sentence construction! 

"This" pen shall not run out of ink until my letter is written.  Am I talking about another pen? Am I talking about "that" pen which will be sold 2,000 years from now?

Accept the truth. It's blantantly obvious!
No, that was me.
Accuse the right person.

Lehigh

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #11 on: Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 17:45:42 »
If a teacher stood before you today in junior high school history class and spoke of the time when President Kennedy was assassinated... and they said "This generation knew what it was like to have their popular leader struck down."

Would you think the teacher was referring to this generation seated in their classroom today?

Or would you interpret it as meaning THAT generation that lived when Kennedy was assassinated?

The same communicative logic applies to Jesus' words.

He said the generation that sees all the signs he just spoke of will not pass until all is fulfilled.

It's not rocket science folks.


Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

And this?

Matthew 17:1-8 was a peek into the future.

1 Corinthians 15:1-6 (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

He came to Paul on several occasions and to John in Revelation who actually saw him sitting on the throne of the Father.



You must not have passed English grammar and sentence construction! 

"This" pen shall not run out of ink until my letter is written.  Am I talking about another pen? Am I talking about "that" pen which will be sold 2,000 years from now?

Accept the truth. It's blantantly obvious!
No, that was me.
Accuse the right person.

OK, since you must be feeling guilty, because the word "this" means "this" and not that!

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #12 on: Sat Mar 31, 2012 - 20:49:53 »
You must not have passed English grammar and sentence construction! 

"This" pen shall not run out of ink until my letter is written.  Am I talking about another pen? Am I talking about "that" pen which will be sold 2,000 years from now?
Does it matter that the Bible wasn't written in English?

inthenow

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #13 on: Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 04:38:08 »
If a teacher stood before you today in junior high school history class and spoke of the time when President Kennedy was assassinated... and they said "This generation knew what it was like to have their popular leader struck down."

Would you think the teacher was referring to this generation seated in their classroom today?

Or would you interpret it as meaning THAT generation that lived when Kennedy was assassinated?

The same communicative logic applies to Jesus' words.

He said the generation that sees all the signs he just spoke of will not pass until all is fulfilled.

It's not rocket science folks.


Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

And this?

Matthew 17:1-8 was a peek into the future.

1 Corinthians 15:1-6 (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

He came to Paul on several occasions and to John in Revelation who actually saw him sitting on the throne of the Father.



You must not have passed English grammar and sentence construction! 

"This" pen shall not run out of ink until my letter is written.  Am I talking about another pen? Am I talking about "that" pen which will be sold 2,000 years from now?

Accept the truth. It's blantantly obvious!
No, that was me.
Accuse the right person.

OK, since you must be feeling guilty, because the word "this" means "this" and not that!
??  just amazed at the preterists here that accuse post after post.

inthenow

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #14 on: Sun Apr 01, 2012 - 17:11:11 »
You also state that world conditions are getting better and better ....

Fires, flooding, lawlessness, middle east on the verge of war, decline of  Christianity, rise of islam,
Christianity disappearing from schools and goverments, homosexual preachers, homosexual marriage, no marriage living together.
What's getting better?

Offline MixedEmotions

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #15 on: Mon Apr 02, 2012 - 10:33:02 »
Matthew 24. You know what I mean. Was Jesus wrong? C.S Lewis thought so. What say you?

John,

Do you agree with C.S. Lewis as do other Christians?  Yes or no?

“The apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false.  It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime.  And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing.  Their Master had told them so.  He shared, and indeed created, their delusion.  He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong.  He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.  This is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible.

Offline MixedEmotions

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #16 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 08:28:59 »


..... He still tarries at this time .... waiting for His purposes and on His time schedule

Linker is wrong.
This is what the Bible says in a letter written to the first century Hebrew Christians:

Hebrews 10:37 - For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.


Offline MixedEmotions

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #17 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 12:41:16 »
The writer of Hebrews did not know the time of the Lord's coming intervention

Apparently, Linker holds to the belief that the author of Hebrews was NOT inspired and writing with Holy Spirit guidance obtained at Pentecost.  He is wrong again.  Look at what the BIBLE says:

John 16:13 - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come

This goes for the author of Revelation as well when he wrote to those seven first century churches.  At the end of his letter to them, he reiterated the time of Christ's coming and the timing of the events he prophesied of.

Revelation 22:6-7 - And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.   
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Revelation 22:10 - And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.   

Revelation 22:12 - And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.   

Revelation 22:20 - He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 
   

I guess the apostle who wrote this letter was wrong too - just like Jesus was wrong, right, Linker?

Strange, Linker doesn't use Scripture to provide proof for his incorrect assertions - - but he often uses his particular paradigm for proof.

For everything he says, Scripture is used against him...







Offline MixedEmotions

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #18 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 14:14:39 »
"Apparently, Linker holds to the belief that the author of Hebrews was NOT inspired and writing with Holy Spirit guidance obtained at Pentecost"

What a presumptious statement to make

You do know what the word "apparently" means, right?


And He has said without question that no one .... not even a preterist .... can know the dating of His soon coming intervention

Really?  Why then would He say otherwise and instruct His apostles to do the same?  Answer that one.
What Scripture(s) would you use to support this assertion of yours?

I would suggest that you read all of His Word ..... and not just part of it

And maybe sooner ..... or later .... you will get His message

Interesting that what I do show you from Scripture is conclusive to my way of thinking and contrary to yours.  How come you don't use Scriptures to prove your assertions?


Lehigh

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #19 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 18:42:21 »

  Jesus said this generation. He meant His contemporaries. There is nothing to learn from those who think Jesus couldn't relate proper grammar!


inthenow

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #20 on: Tue Apr 03, 2012 - 19:50:23 »
Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Generation can mean a particular time, it can also mean a nation or race of people, and both meanings are used in diffrent scriptures, and need to be discerned.

When Jesus is speaking of people in a future time and the calamadies that come on them, it is this generation that He is speaking off that will not pass, they will see all the things fulfilled that Jesus spoke off.

These didn't happened in ad70, and havn't happened even yet.

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat 24:27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:29  Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Offline MixedEmotions

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #21 on: Wed Apr 04, 2012 - 14:20:10 »
Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Generation can mean a particular time, it can also mean a nation or race of people, and both meanings are used in diffrent scriptures, and need to be discerned.


Please!  Enough of the assertions without Scripture to back up what you say.  Show me the Scriptures where you draw this info from.  Remember, it must deal with the phrase "this...generation."

Would you like to go through all the Scriptures that refer to "this generation"?  This has already been done here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/this-generation-shall-not-pass-away

According to your understanding, if it is to be considered a race, then that race will no longer exist (pass) at the parousia coming.  That would be strange since the pre-millennial view would have this "race" to enter the kingdom...

And if your understanding is a yet future generation or nation that sees these things, then it too passes at the parousia and can't enter the kingdom...

The only proper meaning is that their first century "this generation" wouldn't pass (expire) until the parousia came.

When Jesus is speaking of people in a future time and the calamadies that come on them, it is this generation that He is speaking off that will not pass, they will see all the things fulfilled that Jesus spoke off.


And why can't these apply to the generation that Jesus was speaking to?  Your understanding prohibits any original interpretation.

These didn't happened in ad70, and havn't happened even yet.


Ahhh, but only according to your paradigm.  You see these events as related to a physical interpretation based on a 20th century Western cultural and scientific hermeneutic instead of a ancient Eastern cultural biblically defined hermeneutic.  To you, earth = planet.  To you, sun, moon,and stars = those things in outer space.  But biblically defined, the earth = land and the sun, moon, and stars = old covenant Israel's leadership (see Genesis 37:9-10 as one such example).  Jesus was speaking to Jews and they would easily understand the language he was using. It doesn't change from one testament to the other!!

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


If you are willing to trust the apostle Paul, you will find that he clearly stated that the Gospel was preached in all the world, to all the nations, to all the earth, to every creature, etc.  See here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/gospel-preached-to-all-the-world-before-70ad

I am curious as to how you would explain Matthew 5:18?

Matthew 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 

According to your understanding of heaven and earth (things in outer space), you should still be living according to every ordinance of the law.

According to the preterist understanding, we see heaven and earth as the old covenant economy of Israel's temple worship system.  In this way, heaven and earth can easily pass without any distortion of our planet or universe.  It also explains why we don't have to live according to the Law's restraints, offerings, sacrifices, feast days, observing the Sabbath, going to the temple (which is destroyed, anyway), etc.


Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #22 on: Wed Apr 04, 2012 - 17:44:58 »
In my reckoning, this reference to "this generation," as well as many other New Testament references to a perverse, wicked, or adulterous generation, are allusions to a certain prophecy, shown here below:

1Enoch 92:12

Afterwards, in the seventh week, a perverse generation shall arise; abundant shall be its deeds, and all its deeds perverse. During its completion, the righteous shall be selected from the everlasting plant of righteousness; and to them shall be given the sevenfold doctrine of his whole creation.

Jarrod

inthenow

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #23 on: Wed Apr 04, 2012 - 18:08:28 »
Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Generation can mean a particular time, it can also mean a nation or race of people, and both meanings are used in diffrent scriptures, and need to be discerned.


Please!  Enough of the assertions without Scripture to back up what you say.  Show me the Scriptures where you draw this info from.  Remember, it must deal with the phrase "this...generation."

Would you like to go through all the Scriptures that refer to "this generation"?  This has already been done here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/this-generation-shall-not-pass-away

According to your understanding, if it is to be considered a race, then that race will no longer exist (pass) at the parousia coming.  That would be strange since the pre-millennial view would have this "race" to enter the kingdom...

And if your understanding is a yet future generation or nation that sees these things, then it too passes at the parousia and can't enter the kingdom...

The only proper meaning is that their first century "this generation" wouldn't pass (expire) until the parousia came.

When Jesus is speaking of people in a future time and the calamadies that come on them, it is this generation that He is speaking off that will not pass, they will see all the things fulfilled that Jesus spoke off.


And why can't these apply to the generation that Jesus was speaking to?  Your understanding prohibits any original interpretation.

These didn't happened in ad70, and havn't happened even yet.


Ahhh, but only according to your paradigm.  You see these events as related to a physical interpretation based on a 20th century Western cultural and scientific hermeneutic instead of a ancient Eastern cultural biblically defined hermeneutic.  To you, earth = planet.  To you, sun, moon,and stars = those things in outer space.  But biblically defined, the earth = land and the sun, moon, and stars = old covenant Israel's leadership (see Genesis 37:9-10 as one such example).  Jesus was speaking to Jews and they would easily understand the language he was using. It doesn't change from one testament to the other!!

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


If you are willing to trust the apostle Paul, you will find that he clearly stated that the Gospel was preached in all the world, to all the nations, to all the earth, to every creature, etc.  See here: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/gospel-preached-to-all-the-world-before-70ad

I am curious as to how you would explain Matthew 5:18?

Matthew 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 

According to your understanding of heaven and earth (things in outer space), you should still be living according to every ordinance of the law.

According to the preterist understanding, we see heaven and earth as the old covenant economy of Israel's temple worship system.  In this way, heaven and earth can easily pass without any distortion of our planet or universe.  It also explains why we don't have to live according to the Law's restraints, offerings, sacrifices, feast days, observing the Sabbath, going to the temple (which is destroyed, anyway), etc.


You didn't understand any of that.
Pointless going further.
But you "keep at me"  ::nodding::

Lehigh

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #24 on: Wed Apr 04, 2012 - 18:39:38 »

The Great Flood

7 Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.



Does God change?

Is God saying something abstract here that you need ultra discerning skills to know what generation God is referring to?
 
No, it is a plain narrative statement, just like Jesus' "this generation shall not pass....."





inthenow

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #25 on: Wed Apr 04, 2012 - 20:27:36 »

The Great Flood

7 Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.



Does God change?

Is God saying something abstract here that you need ultra discerning skills to know what generation God is referring to?
 
No, it is a plain narrative statement, just like Jesus' "this generation shall not pass....."





That's easy to discern isn't it.

Psa 12:7  Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

Do you think "this generation" here means the time frame of "this generation" as in your posted verse?
If so, how would God preserve them from "this generation" forever?
Preserve them from "this people" forever fits.

Luk_11:51  From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Dou you think "this generation' here refer to the people Jesus is talking to?
Are those people living in that period of time going to be punished for the murder of all the saints since Abel?
Or is "this generation" here referring to a people and place?

Rev 18:20  Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Rev 18:21  And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Rev 18:22  And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Rev 18:23  And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Rev 18:24  And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.


generation
G1074
γενεά
genea
ghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.

Generation = an age, a nation,
And if a nation, then also a race of people.

Lehigh

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #26 on: Wed Apr 04, 2012 - 21:03:17 »
Yes, David means in his generation. What God does is forever.

And yes, Jesus meant that wicked generation would pay:

Matt.23:27-36,

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

« Last Edit: Wed Apr 04, 2012 - 21:32:15 by Lehigh »

inthenow

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #27 on: Thu Apr 05, 2012 - 19:00:19 »
Lehigh, you cannot admit you are wrong?

You say "this generation" is the people of that time.

Strongs Dictionary say's:
generation
G1074
γενεά
genea
ghen-eh-ah'
From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation; by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age, generation, nation, time.

Generation = an age, a nation,
And so the people of the time or a nation - a race of people.

You are wrong.
And you say the following is about the people of that time, although it hasn't happened.

Rev 18:20  Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Rev 18:21  And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Rev 18:22  And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Rev 18:23  And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Rev 18:24  And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.


Luk_11:50  That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

You say this is Jerusalem and it happened in ad70.
So concerning your interpertation, did Jerusalem cease to exist in ad70, never to be lived in again?




Lehigh

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #28 on: Fri Apr 06, 2012 - 11:00:08 »

inthenow,
It is not whether I am wrong, but whether Jesus was! I said He wasn't a liar about His contemporary generation. But you can't seem to pull the nails out regarding  the plain language.
Quote
Rev 18:20  Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Rev 18:21  And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Rev 18:22  And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Rev 18:23  And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Rev 18:24  And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Luk_11:50  That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

You say this is Jerusalem and it happened in ad70.
So concerning your interpertation, did Jerusalem cease to exist in ad70, never to be lived in again?

The earthly and fleshly Jerusalem would be destroyed and the New "Jerusalem" would be raised up" in 70AD. (Zech.14:10)

God terminated His theological relationship with the harlot Israel in 70AD. "Fire came down from above" and spared the spiritual holy city (Rev.20:9) Only the remnant became part of the Israel of God, the spiritual dwelling of the saints, the New Jerusalem.

inthenow

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #29 on: Fri Apr 06, 2012 - 19:45:11 »
quote lehigh:
But you can't seem to pull the nails out regarding  the plain language.

"Fire came down from above" and spared the spiritual holy city (Rev.20:9) Only the remnant became part of the Israel of God, the spiritual dwelling of the saints, the New Jerusalem.
end quote

That is definately not the plain language of the Bible.

Rev 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

After the millinium when satan is released from his 1000 year captivity, satan and the armies of the world go up and circled the saints and Jerusalem, and fire comes down from God and destroyed the armies.

It's not a spiritual Jerusalem, it's the physical Jerusalem that exists today, and it's not the New Jerusalem that comes down to the new earth.

This is not the new Jerusalem, that comes down from God  after satan is thrown into the lake of fire and after the Great White Throne judgment.

And then there is a new Heaven and a new earth where there is no sea, and then the New Jerusalem comes down from God.

It's truly amazing how preterists change scriptures so much and then believe what they teach.

Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


Offline fenton

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #30 on: Fri Apr 06, 2012 - 19:49:39 »
quote lehigh:
But you can't seem to pull the nails out regarding  the plain language.

"Fire came down from above" and spared the spiritual holy city (Rev.20:9) Only the remnant became part of the Israel of God, the spiritual dwelling of the saints, the New Jerusalem.
end quote

That is definately not the plain language of the Bible.

Rev 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

After the millinium when satan is released from his 1000 year captivity, satan and the armies of the world go up and circled the saints and Jerusalem, and fire comes down from God and destroyed the armies.

It's not a spiritual Jerusalem, it's the physical Jerusalem that exists today, and it's not the New Jerusalem that comes down to the new earth.

This is not the new Jerusalem, that comes down from God  after satan is thrown into the lake of fire and after the Great White Throne judgment.

And then there is a new Heaven and a new earth where there is no sea, and then the New Jerusalem comes down from God.

It's truly amazing how preterists change scriptures so much and then believe what they teach.

Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.



great post

Lehigh

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #31 on: Fri Apr 06, 2012 - 21:15:20 »
inthenow,
Quote
"Fire came down from above" and spared the spiritual holy city (Rev.20:9) Only the remnant became part of the Israel of God, the spiritual dwelling of the saints, the New Jerusalem.
end quote

That is definately not the plain language of the Bible.

Rev 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


  Those Revelation verses are figurative/prophetic language that must be spiritually discerned.
But you're confused because I was referring to the plain language in the Gospels.

Lehigh said,
Quote
It is not whether I am wrong, but whether Jesus was! I said He wasn't a liar about His contemporary generation. But you can't seem to pull the nails out regarding  the plain language.


Try a little due diligence when reading and  replying to posts.



inthenow

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #32 on: Fri Apr 06, 2012 - 23:32:41 »
quote lehigh:
Those Revelation verses are figurative/prophetic language that must be spiritually discerned.
But you're confused because I was referring to the plain language in the Gospels.
end quote

If you were referring to the plain language of the gospel you would not be saying that a plain and straight forward saying of a prophecised future event is figurative.
You claim many scriptures as being figurative to give a meaning to them, other than what they say.  ::nodding::

Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

That is all literal and future.
If a verse say's for instance, something that cannot be understood of itself, then that verse could be figurative pointing to a literal fullfilment found elsewhere in the Bible.
But some take plain and clear scripture and say it is figurative, as you do, believing the teachings of man over what the Word say's.

Lehigh

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #33 on: Sat Apr 07, 2012 - 14:49:48 »

 So, you plan to literally see Satan released from his prison and go around deceiving people?! That's precious!

 I thought the earth was "literally" round?  Yet you say there is literally 4 corners?! ::doh2::

 Not to mention a literal white throne and a physical city coming down from heaven.

 You actually could be making $ in horror and science fiction films, instead of attempting to make your jargon about the Bible a reality!

 Why waste your time trying to change reality when you have other talents to tap into?

inthenow

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Re: This generation?
« Reply #34 on: Sat Apr 07, 2012 - 20:11:47 »
Lehigh:

 So, you plan to literally see Satan released from his prison and go around deceiving people?! That's precious!

If I'm caught up to the Lord, then yes I will see it. Those on earth being deceived will experience it.


 I thought the earth was "literally" round?  Yet you say there is literally 4 corners?! ::doh2::

Are lies all you have left.


 Not to mention a literal white throne and a physical city coming down from heaven.

Yes, it's true.

 You actually could be making $ in horror and science fiction films, instead of attempting to make your jargon about the Bible a reality!

 Why waste your time trying to change reality when you have other talents to tap into?

Like I have said, you don't believe Gods word, but spiritulise it away.

 

     
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