Author Topic: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"  (Read 938 times)

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Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #35 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 14:54:26 »
"Biblical prophetic language" - a euphemism for "Since it didn't happen yet, I'd better make this prophecy figurative/symbolic."

  In more "other words", the FACT those events have NOT yet happened has left you clueless.

Your cult doesn't allow you to learn anything.  It binds you and blinds you.


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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #35 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 14:54:26 »

Online robycop3

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #36 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 18:20:24 »
Your cult doesn't allow you to learn anything.  It binds you and blinds you.

  OK, **PROOF**, please, or admit preterism is false.

Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #37 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 20:06:17 »
  OK, **PROOF**, please, or admit preterism is false.

Here's my 80 proof.  ::cool::

The joy of the Lord is my strength.


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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #38 on: Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 05:52:03 »
Here's my 80 proof.  ::cool::

The joy of the Lord is my strength.

  You simply have no proof, but you're too proud to admit it.

Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #39 on: Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 10:25:37 »
  You simply have no proof, but you're too proud to admit it.

I'm not going through the interpretations all again for an accuser.

Who wants to cast their "pearls" before swine anyway?

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #39 on: Sun Jan 12, 2020 - 10:25:37 »



Online robycop3

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #40 on: Mon Jan 13, 2020 - 10:20:43 »
I'm not going through the interpretations all again for an accuser.

Who wants to cast their "pearls" before swine anyway?

  So far, your "pearls" have been paper wads.

  Remember, I'm quite-familiar with what's been written about the events of 66-70 AD as well as the "diaspora" of the Jews in 135-136 AD. And these  events match the "days of vengeance" Scriptures pretty well, especially the punishments of Israel prophesied from Moses onward.

  But they do NOT match the eschatological prophecies. You're still batting ZERO proof-wise.

  You don't SEEM stupid, so why do you believe a stupid false doctrine you cannot prove ?

Offline Dafydd

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #41 on: Sun Jan 26, 2020 - 17:56:22 »
Someone once said that the mills of God grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly fine. We do indeed need patience to wait for God to bring about the completion of the Kingdom in His way and in His time. When we try to precipitate the end result we run into trouble. Those who try to create Heaven on Earth in their own power end up by creating a Hell!

Yet, it is interesting to try to imagine what life and society will be like during the later times of the Kingdom. While not trying to "force God's hand," if we hold a vision before us we see our work here and now in the wider perspective. We will be like the workman who said that he was building a cathedral and not like his friend who only saw himself as digging a ditch.

I would once have considered myself an old-fashioned Christian Socialist, but I now see this as another form of Top Down OM. Today, I believe that something like the goal of Christian Socialism will emerge "(super-) naturally" as more and more of the world's population become Christian and the evil of greed (which drives Capitalism) is replaced by the sense of brotherhood in the Lord. Something like Robert Owen's villages of co-operation might be the norm in the latter times of the Earthly Kingdom. Where Owen failed was in both rejecting Christianity and in his belief that we are basically good. He tried to build with fallen humans a society that can only exist when people die to themselves and allow Christ to act through them.

There's a great day coming. Hallelujah!!!
 
« Last Edit: Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 18:37:48 by Dafydd »

Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #42 on: Sun Jan 26, 2020 - 19:02:51 »
by Daffydd,
Quote
We do indeed need patience to wait for God to bring about the completion of the Kingdom in His way and in His time.

Only an increase in His government, friend!

Note Luke 1:33 and MORE! (NKJV)

33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #43 on: Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 01:17:08 »
  Jesus is NOT now ruling the nations with a rod of iron, that is, in a firm, strict manner, as is evidenced by His physical absence & the prevalence of sin worldwide.

Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #44 on: Mon Jan 27, 2020 - 11:28:10 »
rb3,
I wasn't talking to you! Anyway, ppl will read this and learn:

The victory of Jesus in his resurrection and ascension.  God "begat" Jesus as a Son in his resurrection; he set him as king upon his "holy hill of Zion" (heavenly Jerusalem), and gave him the kingdoms of the world for his inheritance, which he rules with a rod of iron:

"Ask of me and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."  Ps. 2:8, 9; cf. Rom. 1:4 

Psalm 110 similarly describes Christ's rule from God's right hand in heaven:

"The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies."  Ps. 110:1, 2

Psalm 2 and 110 thus describe the reign of Christ; both extend it over the heathen and Christ's enemies; both set it at God's right hand in heaven in precisely the same terms as Daniel's coronation vision.  The New Testament epistles and Acts affirm that Psalm 2 and 110 were fulfilled in Christ's ascension (Acts 2:34, 35; 13:33; Heb. 1:13; 12:2; I Pet. 3:22). Moreover, John portrays the heavenly coronation of Christ as an accomplished fact, drawing on the imagery and language of Daniel and the Psalms (Rev. 5; 12:5), and Jesus himself indicates present fulfillment of Psalm 2 (Rev. 2:26, 27). Hence, prophecies like Isa. 9:6, 7, which speak of Christ ruling upon David's throne, looked for fulfillment in his resurrection and ascension, not upon earth.
Learn War No More

Some will object that many, if not most, nations are in denial and rebellion of Christ's authority and Sonship: How does this square with imagery of the Messianic kingdom where the nations "beat their swords into plowshares" and learn war no more?  Consider this prophecy of Isaiah:

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.  And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. "Isa. 2:2-4

This imagery is commonly relied upon by Millennialists as foretelling a time of universal peace on earth under the Messiah. However, this mistakes the passage. 

First, it must be pointed out that scripture nowhere foretells a time when all nations willingly submit to Christ. Just the opposite: When Psalm 110 says "rule thou in the midst of thine enemies," it presupposes resistance to Christ's reign. Likewise, when Psalm 2 says the Son will break the nations with a rod of iron and thus urges earth's kings and judges to "kiss the Son, lest he be angry and ye perish from the way" (v. 12), it indicates that Christ governs all nations, whether they acknowledge him or not (cf. Zech. 14:16-19). Indeed, Isaiah himself says as much when he states that Christ will "judge among the nations and shall rebuke many peoples" (Isa. 2:4).  Thus, the notion of a time when universal peace will obtain on earth is mere fantasy.

Second, when Isaiah says the nations will "learn war no more," he speaks only of those who walk in his paths; viz., those who obey the gospel. "Learning war" is the opposite of "rest from war." As the Jews obeyed God, he gave them rest from their enemies. But when they disobeyed, war was the result (Jud. 3:8, 11, 30; II Sam. 7:1, 11). "Learning war" therefore is to experience God's chastisement and correction; "rest from war" his reward and favor (cf. Jud. 3:1, 2).  Hence, Isaiah's imagery of the nations "beating their swords into plowshares" applies only to those who "ascend" the mountain of the Lord (receive the gospel), not the nations that remain in rebellion. ~ by Kurt Simmons


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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #45 on: Wed Jan 29, 2020 - 01:16:57 »
   "Learning war" is military training, plain-n-simple. As a young man, I THOUGHT I could fight well; I was also a very good shot with pistol or rifle. But I found out how little I knew when I joined the USN & went thru boot camp.

   Simple fact is: Jesus is NOT yet ruling the nations "with a rod of iron", that is, strictly and firmly. But He shall; thus says Scripture. Now, you may choose to not believe it, but as for me & my house, WE SHALL TRUST GOD !

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #46 on: Fri Jan 31, 2020 - 16:09:48 »
Jesus is NOT now ruling the nations with a rod of iron, that is, in a firm, strict manner, as is evidenced by His physical absence & the prevalence of sin worldwide.
Physical absence?  Nah... we are His body, and the last I checked, we are in the world.

As for sin, I think the thing that trips people up is that they expect that as soon as Jesus begins His reign, everything will INSTANTLY be perfection.  God only knows why people expect that... it has never been the case before.  God's work has always been a slow process of leading people down the path towards perfection.  And so it remains.

Jarrod

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #47 on: Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 03:50:25 »
Spot-on, Jarrod.

Incremental growth, such as Christ’s example of the mustard seed, leaven, and also the increasing effect of Daniel’s rock that is presently growing into a mountain that will fill the whole earth with its influence.

Slow, but inevitable growth of God’s kingdom.  God has infinitely more patience than we have.

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #48 on: Sat Feb 01, 2020 - 06:39:35 »
  But the REAL growth won't occur til JESUS is physically here, directly ruling.

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #49 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 13:58:31 »
  But the REAL growth won't occur til JESUS is physically here, directly ruling.
Jesus already has a physical presence in the world.  We are His body.  That verse is literal, not a metaphor.

Offline Dafydd

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #50 on: Mon Feb 03, 2020 - 19:26:51 »
Sin is present during the 1,000 years. This seems to be the implication of biblical teaching and is not dependent upon either interpreting the 1,000 years as a literal 1,000 years during which Christ will rule physically on earth or as an extended period during which he rules earth from Heaven (as I interpret it). The OT speaks about stagnant pools which will not be refreshed by the River flowing from the Temple and also about people who die at ages of 100 years being thought of as punished by God. The last may just be an emphasis on the great age reached by those of that time, but it does nevertheless seem to indicate that sin will remain present. In the NT, Paul says (1Cor. 15: 23-28) that Christ will rule until all that is against him is placed under his feet, with the final defeated enemy being death itself. That implies a progressive cleansing during the entirety of his reign, with total victory over sin at the very end. Then, when the Kingdom is perfected, Jesus will yield the Kingdom to the Father. Similarly, Rev. 20:4 - 10 speaks of the last insurrection of evil at the very end of the 1,000-year rule of Christ. John says that Satan must (not simply will) be released then. But why the imperative? Surely to draw out his followers who are as numerous as the sands of the sea. Even if that is still a minority of the human race at that time, it still amounts to a lot of sinners!

This final event is still in the future, but Christ rules now with a rod of iron (i.e. without any compromise with sin). A "rod" of iron is not, by the way, a "fist" of iron!

The Biblical position does not seem consistent with a full-fledged pantelist preterism which sees ALL prophecy as being completed in 70 AD, but is in line with the position of Russell. We are now in the age of Kingdom growth, moving toward an eventual eternal age free from all sin and wickedness. I believe that Christ truly rules from Heaven through his surrendered people on earth (as limbs of his body, not as viceroys!) and that his rule will be increased as his people yield increasingly to his inward guidance and not from our own ideas. This is how all Christian endeavors should proceed. Through this, we as the church should be modelling to the world how all government and authority should proceed, as well as providing a prophecy as to how it WILL proceed one day as the Kingdom extends throughout the world of politics and authority.

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #51 on: Tue Feb 04, 2020 - 01:23:22 »
  Answers to the last 2 posts:  Actually, we are Jesus' representatives here on earth; He Himself is only Spiritually present when 2 or more gather in His name. The prevalence of sin in the world is proof He is NOT now ruling the world, except in maintaining the laws of physics, etc.

  And Scripture plainly prophesies a number of world events, such as the great trib, empire of the antichrist, etc. Very obviously, these events haven't yet occurred, but they WILL.

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #52 on: Tue Feb 04, 2020 - 10:54:32 »
It’s not really a choice of the saints of God being EITHER a representative OR the body of Christ.  It’s a case of BOTH / AND.  Paul said that the saints are both of these things.

I Cor. 12:27:  “Now YE ARE THE BODY OF CHRIST, and members in particular.”

Eph. 6:20:  “Now then WE ARE AMBASSADORS FOR CHRIST, as though God did beseech you by us...”

Per robycop3’s last reply, it sounds a bit condescending to speak of God the Spirit as “ONLY spiritually present when two or more gather in His name”.  God the Spirit is of no less importance in the Trinity than God the Son or God the Father.  The presence of God the Spirit NEVER LEAVES the saints of God, once He takes up residence.  He does not wait to make an appearance until two or more gather: He is *ALREADY* THERE IN THE MIDST OF THEM when they gather together, because He resides WITHIN THEM ALL (Eph. 1:23, and John 14:17).

That is why Christ left the planet at His final ascension from the Mount of Olives in Acts 1, so that the Comforter could remain with them (and IN them) forever (John 16:7).

And the presence of sin in the world at present does not negate the ongoing rule of Christ on His heavenly throne, which is the mercy-seat of His high-priesthood.  The resurrected Christ was to “rule thou in the midst of thine enemies” (Ps. 110:2), which is a tacit admission that those enemies would exist, concurrent with His rule.  The mere presence of resistance and hostility to an authority structure does not invalidate the rule exercised by that authority.  God’s rule has never been held hostage by the sinfulness of a fallen creation.  He makes even the wrath of man to praise Him.

Dafydd, while I am on board with the general flow of your post’s theme, there is one item of disagreement: the 1,000 year millennium and the release of Satan for a short time at the end of that millennium is NOT a FUTURE EVENT for us.  John’s chronology of events puts that 1,000-year millennium and release of Satan in THE PAST, as of the time he was writing Revelation 12:12.  John spoke about the release of Satan in the PRESENT TENSE at THAT TIME.  “Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!  For the Devil *IS COME DOWN UNTO YOU*, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.” 

This “SHORT TIME” is the same “LITTLE SEASON” at the end of the millennium in Rev. 20:7-8 when Satan was released to deceive the nations - in JOHN’S days, not our future.

This means that the Devil had only a short time longer to exist and to do his massive deception of the nations, in those few years before and after John wrote those words. After that “little season”, he would no longer be around, because God would slay him, and utterly destroy him, as Is. 27:1 and Ezekiel 28:14-19 had prophesied.

With the eradication of the demonic realm in John’s days, the Age of kingdom growth from then on was liberated from the presence of one of its great oppressive enemies (Heb. 2:5).  As you have said describing the present condition of our current age, we are “moving toward an eventual eternal age free from all sin and wickedness”.  Christ will return for a third time at the end of this current age to establish this totally purified state of the world at a final third resurrection.  Until then, however, each of the saints are charged to increase that kingdom’s growth with the provided means of the in-dwelling Spirit.

Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #53 on: Tue Feb 04, 2020 - 14:15:18 »
Hi 3 R's,
Quote
With the eradication of the demonic realm in John’s days, the Age of kingdom growth from then on was liberated from the presence of one of its great oppressive enemies (Heb. 2:5).  As you have said describing the present condition of our current age, we are “moving toward an eventual eternal age free from all sin and wickedness”.  Christ will return for a third time at the end of this current age to establish this totally purified state of the world at a final third resurrection.  Until then, however, each of the saints are charged to increase that kingdom’s growth with the provided means of the in-dwelling Spirit.
I don't want to explore "angels" too much, but I disagree with your take on Heb.2:5. Yes, Satan was destroyed in AD70, however Hebrews is speaking about the "angels" in their "present and past" authorities by which they brought God's Holy Scriptures.
from Google: In the Bible angels are mostly errand boys, the word itself means "messenger." As God's intermediaries they give tours of heaven to righteous visionaries like Daniel, deliver messages to God's chosen ones, and sing eternal praises to God. ... The Angel of the Lord is always packing heat.
Daniel is the first biblical figure to refer to individual angels by name, mentioning Gabriel (God's primary messenger) in Daniel 9:21 and Michael (the holy fighter) in Daniel 10:13.


Another thing, I'm surprised you hang on to a 3rd coming without any Biblical proof.  The "age to come" is the eternal age of Christ's Theocratic kingdom. We're in it ever since AD70 ushered in the New heaven and earth- the New Jerusalem, which is a depiction of the heavenly one. God's holy mountain, Mt Zion.

You know, the first Christians were expecting Christ's return in their day, as they had been preached to about. Somehow, pride and selfishness wants to claim that that's for them today.


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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #54 on: Wed Feb 05, 2020 - 00:43:41 »
  While the HOLY SPIRIT indwells us Christians, He is separate from Jesus. And Jesus said HE will be present Spiritually whenever/wherever 2 or more are gathered in His name.

  And Satan has neither yet been confined to "the abyss" nor freed from it, since he hasn't yet been confined in it. The prevalence of sin all over earth is proof positive that Satan is still functioning on earth. That's a fact that's hard for a sane person to deny !

  No. Satan was not destroyed in 70 AD. That's nonsense. If he had been destroyed, there'd be no sin. Besides, Scripture says Satan will be cast into the lake of fire, to remain there for ever.

Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #55 on: Wed Feb 05, 2020 - 10:50:05 »
  While the HOLY SPIRIT indwells us Christians, He is separate from Jesus. And Jesus said HE will be present Spiritually whenever/wherever 2 or more are gathered in His name.

  And Satan has neither yet been confined to "the abyss" nor freed from it, since he hasn't yet been confined in it. The prevalence of sin all over earth is proof positive that Satan is still functioning on earth. That's a fact that's hard for a sane person to deny !

  No. Satan was not destroyed in 70 AD. That's nonsense. If he had been destroyed, there'd be no sin. Besides, Scripture says Satan will be cast into the lake of fire, to remain there for ever.

So you don't believe the Trinity. Ask me if I care! The Spirit is one. Eph.4:4, For there is one body and one Spirit, just as you have been called to one glorious hope for the future.
Where is your hope for the future? In Armageddon? Good thing you're not a preacher!

And you still hold on to Satan whereas God sentenced him into the lake of fire.

In Revelation, inspiration depicts the imminent consummation of God’s scheme of Redemption. Satan has attempted to kill Jesus. His last resort is to destroy the church in her infancy before she can grow to maturity (chapter 12). He incorporates the city “where our Lord was crucified,” (11:8), which becomes drunken with the blood of the saints (17:6f). But Jesus comes in judgment on that apostate city and destroys her. In chapter 20 judgment is set, Satan is cast into the lake of fire; and Jesus takes his glorious bride unto himself! This all happened in 70 AD with the full destruction of the Theocracy of Israel, the persecuting city of Jerusalem, the Old Heavens and Earth. The New Creation is complete–what Satan had succeeded in getting man to forfeit, communion with God and eternal life, is restored. Satan lost — God finished His work.

Whence Comes Evil
But if all this is true why do we still have evil in the world? Consider: in Revelation 20, Satan is cast into the lake of fire. He is fully defeated. But in chapter 22:15 we find that outside the New Jerusalem, the perfected church, [it is not heaven!] is all manner of evil. Here is the continued existence of sin and evil AFTER Satan is depicted as destroyed! How is this possible?

Are Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, dead? Of course. Are we still influenced by them? Positively! Is Hitler dead? Nero? To be sure. Are we still influenced by them? Unquestionably! In the very same way it is possible for a Christian today to maintain that Satan has been finally defeated, cast into hell. Evil still exists because man is still a free moral agent with dilemma ever present. (Incidentally, Adam and Eve had free agency and dilemma BEFORE Satan appeared to Eve. They could have sinned.) But man needs to recognize his own responsibility for his own actions.

James says we are tempted and drawn away of our own lusts (James 1:13f). Every temptation we have can be summarized under the three headings of I John 2:15-17. Our great need is to take responsibility in curbing our own appetites. We need to rely more on God and his promises!
~
by DKPreston.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #56 on: Wed Feb 05, 2020 - 12:02:03 »
Actually, we are Jesus' representatives here on earth; He Himself is only Spiritually present when 2 or more gather in His name.
That isn't what the Bible says.  Paul says "we are His body."  Peter says we are the stones that comprise His temple, and He is present among us.

The prevalence of sin in the world is proof He is NOT now ruling the world, except in maintaining the laws of physics, etc.
This doesn't pass the logic test.  Are we to believe that His rule cannot happen UNTIL the world is ALREADY sin-free?  If He is ruling, then it will happen while there is still sin, and He will take action to rectify it.

Jarrod

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #57 on: Wed Feb 05, 2020 - 12:03:42 »
Are Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, dead? Of course. Are we still influenced by them? Positively! Is Hitler dead? Nero? To be sure. Are we still influenced by them? Unquestionably! In the very same way it is possible for a Christian today to maintain that Satan has been finally defeated, cast into hell. Evil still exists because man is still a free moral agent with dilemma ever present. (Incidentally, Adam and Eve had free agency and dilemma BEFORE Satan appeared to Eve. They could have sinned.) But man needs to recognize his own responsibility for his own actions.
+1

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #58 on: Wed Feb 05, 2020 - 17:20:10 »
As lea has already brought up this point, these are a couple verses we are all familiar with that confirm mankind’s own responsibility for their sinful actions - which does NOT require the presence of Satanic or demonic evil in this earth to instigate that sin.

Mark 7:21-23 - “For FROM WITHIN, OUT OF THE HEART OF MEN, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these things come FROM WITHIN, and defile the man.”

James 1:14 - “But every man is tempted when he is DRAWN AWAY OF *HIS OWN* LUST, and enticed.”  No satanic or demonic existence mentioned as a cause.

Even though Satan was totally destroyed in AD 70 (when this formerly-anointed cherub was burned to ashes in Jerusalem’s “Lake of Fire” during the city and the nation’s “second death”), sin would still continue to be generated by mankind’s evil heart desires, even under the prevailing conditions of the NHNE of our present New Covenant Age.  Dafydd already mentioned above this presence of sin in the NHNE conditions of Isaiah 65:20, which means that Isaiah was not writing about the eternal state in that context.

And as Dafydd’s post is also emphasizing, God has chosen to use the work of the indwelling Spirit in the saints to produce the incremental growth of His kingdom in this world.  This Spirit is not separated from Jesus, since I John 4:13 links the two together.  “Hereby know we that we dwell in him and HE IN US, because he hath given us of HIS SPIRIT.”   Because Jesus had given the disciples His Spirit, Jesus’s promise was fulfilled to them when He said “and lo, I am with you always, even unto the completion of the age”, in spite of the fact that Jesus’ glorified, resurrected human body would physically ascend into the heavens.

At the final third resurrection and judgment, this growth of redeemed humanity in the kingdom of God will no longer be necessary, because we will have finally achieved a totally perfected status of completed redemption for the body, soul and spirit of every remaining  member of the body of Christ.  To use Christ’s parable, the growth of the “leaven” of Christ’s kingdom is not left to perpetually develop in the bread dough.  Instead, at the peak of development, the growth of leaven is halted by the baking process, which yields a perfect, edible result.

Lea, you have stated that you see no scripture proof of this third resurrection I speak of, nor of another age beyond the NHNE one that we currently occupy.  I agree that Paul spoke of the SINGLE “Age To Come” in Ephesians 2:21, (which you and I agree was the NHNE Age under the New Covenant, which we currently occupy).  However, Paul also spoke in Ephesians 2:6-7 of “The *AGES* (PLURAL) that are coming”, all of which ages would follow after the Age Paul was then occupying. 

These PLURAL AGES that Paul spoke of (not just that SINGLE additional one) would necessarily require that there be a culmination point of some kind - a transition point from our NHNE Age under the New Covenant into at least one more Age following this one.   That transition point between the NHNE Age and the Age following it is where I see the third bodily resurrection and judgment taking place. 

After that third resurrection and final judgment, God will then rid this world completely of human evil.  He will glorify the corruptible bodies of the rest of His resurrected saints, and also annihilate the rest of the wicked so that human evil exists no more in this world.  This totally purified state of the world is not something that we as saints can ultimately achieve while in corruptible flesh, although we are tasked with doing our part with the Spirit’s aid to make disciples for His kingdom meanwhile.

In the final analysis, the kingdom rule of God can still be endless, while the individual phases of humanity’s different Ages during that kingdom have both a beginning and an end.  And one of the features of this present NHNE Age is that we are not subjected to the angelic supervision of the “Watchers” of God’s divine council anymore (as predicted in Heb. 2:5). The purpose for this particular role of celestial, watchful oversight of human affairs by God’s divine council is outmoded in this NHNE Age, because Satan and his angels are no longer a threat since their destruction in AD 70. 

The saints of God are the new version of God’s divine council on earth now.  The task of being Christ’s ambassador representatives to the nations of the world, implementing His plans for the kingdom’s growth (which was once the job of the celestial divine council) has now fallen to us.


Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #59 on: Wed Feb 05, 2020 - 19:44:55 »
3R's,
Since there are several other indications of the "ages" in Scripture, ie: 1Cor.10:11, 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.
Since Paul says "in the ages to come" and almost exclusively in that verse, I copied a sermon(redeeminggod.com/sermon) The commentary explains much about the plural use in v.7.

Eph.2: 6,7, and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.


Have you ever wondered what heaven will be like? Ephesians 2:7 is a hint. It will be an eternity of experiencing the exceeding riches of God’s grace and kindness. I don’t know exactly what that means – I don’t know all that will be involved – but think about it for a moment. If God did not spare his own son for mortal sinners like us – we cannot even imagine what he has in store for us when we become immortal children of God in heaven!

If you think He’s shown us mercy, grace and love now – just wait! You ain’t seen nothin’ yet! Take all of your fondest memories, mix them with your wildest dreams, put them together with the most beautiful places on earth, add in the most enjoyable people you know of to be around, and if can imagine such an event, you have not even come close understanding what God is preparing for those who love him. Jesus said when He left this earth that he was going to prepare a place for us. He has been gone now for almost 2000 years. Think about that, and compare it with the six days it took Him to create the present universe. It’s going to be a glorious place – and it will be for our enjoyment in the ages to come when God shows the exceeding riches of His grace and His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

So Ephesians 2:5-7 tell of the things that God has given to believers in Christ. When Christ died, believers died as well. When he got new life, believers got new life. When He was raised, we were raised. When He was given a royal position, so were we, and since he has eternal honor and riches, when we get to heaven, God promises to pour them out upon us as well.


So, that makes complete sense to me.  There nothing in Scripture that supports a 2nd OR 3rd coming of Christ coming to earth.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #60 on: Wed Feb 05, 2020 - 23:37:03 »
Sorry lea, but the extended quote from the sermon you copied says absolutely nothing that addresses why Paul used the plural term “AGES” while he was sitting in the time period at the “end of the ages”.

The way Paul was speaking in Eph. 2:7, there were AT LEAST *TWO* MORE AGES TO COME from his perspective at the end of the Old Covenant Age - and up to an INFINITE NUMBER OF AGES that will extend into eternity, during which we will be worshipping and serving our God in whatever capacity He intends for us.   

Eternity has no conclusion point, but the term “Ages” does include a beginning and an ending point.  Think of it mathematically in geometry terms; eternity could be represented by a line with arrows at both ends showing infinity, and the ages of fallen humanity’s existence on this earth can be represented as a sequence of connected segments on that line named “segment AB”, “BC”, “CD”, “DE”, “EF”, “FG”, “GH”, and so on from there into eternity.  Each of those named sets of points on that timeline would represent a beginning and ending point of each segment for each different age of fallen humanity’s history on this earth.

Let’s say that the Apostle Paul was sitting on that timeline at the “end of the ages” (plural) which had begun at the Fall in the Garden of Eden with point “A”, and would soon end at point “E” when the remnants of the Old Covenant would be dissolved at Christ’s bodily return for the AD 70 resurrection (prophesied in Zech. 14:4-5).

From Paul’s perspective in Ephesians 2:7, the “AGES that are coming” (also plural) would at least include the next two segments on that timeline starting from point “E” and ending with point “H” in our future, at which point fallen man’s history on this planet will conclude with a final third resurrection and judgment.  Paul could have also been including all the infinite number of ages in eternity that would follow from that point “H” and onward.

As you can tell, I don’t see that scripture limits world history to only two ages as the rabbis have always done (and most Full Preterists that I am aware of).  Paul mentions multiple ages again in Ephesians 3:21.  “Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT *ALL* AGES, world without end.”  More than just a total of two ages of human history are spoken about here, or Paul would have said “throughout BOTH ages...”.

Paul also mentions multiple ages (plural) occurring BEFORE the Old Covenant Age he was then occupying.  Ephesians 3:4-6, “Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ, Which IN OTHER AGES (plural) was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is NOW revealed” (at the end of that Old Covenant Age) “unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; that the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.”

Personally, I recognize 7 different ages of fallen mankind’s history on this planet, (to coincide with the 7 days of creation week), which are divided into a thousand years each, and with the Revelation 20 millennium in the very center of this timeline at “segment DE”.

That would mean you and I, lea, would be living near the very end of “segment FG” on this timeline, with one more age to go before the final third resurrection.  And yes, there are scriptures that refer to this second and third resurrection, which I have listed before on other posts, and which are generally disregarded.

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #61 on: Thu Feb 06, 2020 - 01:18:50 »
That isn't what the Bible says.  Paul says "we are His body."  Peter says we are the stones that comprise His temple, and He is present among us.
This doesn't pass the logic test.  Are we to believe that His rule cannot happen UNTIL the world is ALREADY sin-free?  If He is ruling, then it will happen while there is still sin, and He will take action to rectify it.

Jarrod

  Actually, Jesus will quickly deal with further sin after His return & the elimination of the "beast", false prophet, & their army, as He establishes His world rule from Jerusalem. Sure, there'll still be some sin, and sinners, but they won't freely sin & get away with it as they do now.

  As for now, the HOLY SPIRIT is now here in Jesus' place. (Except in Jesus' office of Savior.) Jesus said that Himself. But he also said that whenever/wherever two or more are gathered in His name, He would be among them. (Spiritually, of course.)

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #62 on: Thu Feb 06, 2020 - 10:35:34 »
3R's,
You well enough can understand that Paul was a Hebrew, and a former Pharisee, most likely knowing much about Jewish ages. However, I don't believe the one instance in Eph. 2:7, (Eph.3:21 does not project ages in the future) denotes anything new. I don't think one can interject any vision from that verse except the one proposed by the preacher in my last post.
Perhaps Paul could be referring to the "middle ages" in his future. He may also be referring to science.
Hebrews 9:
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
That vs. is clear., whereas Eph.2:7 is ambiguous. I believe we should rely on what is clear in the Bible, that which is written the majority of times also.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #63 on: Thu Feb 06, 2020 - 13:09:19 »
Hi lea,

Thank you for the reasonable tone of your feedback on this, since I know some of this goes against the flow of Full-Preterist teaching.  I’m afraid I have to disagree with you when you state that Ephesians 3:21 says nothing about multiple future ages.  It does.  Our main clue that it does is that Paul is discussing Christ’s manifested glory IN THE *CHURCH* throughout all of its different future ages, which number of additional ages in eternity has no end after the final bodily resurrection.

From Paul’s perspective on the timeline when the NHNE Age was soon to arrive, the church would have MULTIPLE “ALL AGES” in its future when they would be manifesting God’s glory in the world.  (And I believe scripture teaches that the planet’s existence and the presence of the saints in it will not cease when the ages of eternity begin.  God had always “formed this earth to be inhabited”, and “the earth He hath given to the sons of men.”)

That makes two witnesses that agree on multiple FUTURE ages after the last days when the the Old Covenant had passed (Eph. 2:7 and 3:21).  And there are several witnesses for multiple ages in the PAST before that NHNE Age arrived (I Cor. 10:11, Heb. 9:26, Eph. 3:5).  And we know that the very definition of an “age” requires a beginning point and an ending point for it, which the extended quote above from the preacher’s commentary on Eph. 2:7 does not seem to admit.

Having 7 ages for fallen man’s history, with a total of 7,000 years to match the 7 days of creation week is not an idea original to me.  It has been presented by Jewish rabbis and other sources before.  I wish I had copied the source, but I have read that some rabbis have also proposed that the laying of Solomon’s foundation stone for the Temple was what sealed Satan in the abyss for a literal thousand years.  Symbolically, this was very true for that 4th millennium of Rev. 20 in the center of all human history.

It was at the consummation of that 4th age of human history that Christ was manifested and sacrificed Himself for us to put away sin.  He is the central point and the ultimate purpose that all prophecy revolves around.   “The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”, Rev. 19:10 tells us.   Which means that the focus of all prophecy either looked forward in time, anticipating Christ’s work, or it looked backward in time at His accomplished work.  I believe three ages for fallen man preceded the Rev. 20 millennium, and three ages will have followed it before the final resurrection.  You are right, lea, that this verse in Heb. 9:26 is very clear as to the preeminence that Christ’s sacrifice and resurrection has above all other human events on the timeline of the ages.  It’s the main focus in the very center of fallen mankind’s history.

Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #64 on: Thu Feb 06, 2020 - 16:42:39 »
3R's,
When I pulled up the vs. in Eph.3:21, I noticed that the term "ages" is actually "generations" in other versions.
Ephesians 3:21, NASB: "to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.""
The KJV has "ages" but even the NIV has "generations" as the key word here.
The literal Greek here is "throughout all generations of the age of the ages."  The Christian age is the age of the ages; the age to which all others were tending and which will last so long as earth endures.

Now, I have another, commentator on  preteristcentral that agrees with the preacher's view on Eph.2:7.
Eph. 2:7 - "That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."
Quote
This verse seems to speak in anticipation of the resurrection, and the ages to come in heaven where we will live as sons of the living God.

So with that in mind, Eph.3:21 is not a second witness for "ages to come." And two witnesses at least describe Eph.2:7 as being in heaven.


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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #65 on: Thu Feb 06, 2020 - 18:44:09 »
Dafydd, while I am on board with the general flow of your post’s theme, there is one item of disagreement: the 1,000 year millennium and the release of Satan for a short time at the end of that millennium is NOT a FUTURE EVENT for us.  John’s chronology of events puts that 1,000-year millennium and release of Satan in THE PAST, as of the time he was writing Revelation 12:12.  John spoke about the release of Satan in the PRESENT TENSE at THAT TIME.  “Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!  For the Devil *IS COME DOWN UNTO YOU*, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”

This “SHORT TIME” is the same “LITTLE SEASON” at the end of the millennium in Rev. 20:7-8 when Satan was released to deceive the nations - in JOHN’S days, not our future.


These two Satanic instances cannot be the same, in my opinion. In the first, Satan has been cast out of Heaven and fallen to earth where his aim seems to be to thwart the Incarnation (hence his pursuit of Mary etc.). In the second, Satan is released from the abyss, coming "up" to earth as it were. In this case, he cannot thwart the Incarnation (which has already taken place) but he attempts to deceive the people who are not believers to attack the Christians. The battle never happens, as God comes down in fiery judgment and puts an end to evil forever.

J. S. Russell, in his book "The Parousia" points out the difference between the prophecy of the last insurrection of evil and other NT prophecies. The others either give an explicit timeline for the near future ("soon", before the end of "this generation" etc.) or are worded in ways that are consistent with this. The most likely interpretation of these is the preterist one. However, the prophecy of the last insurrection of evil gives a timeline of after the 1,000 years. This difference makes the prophecy stand out like the proverbial sore thumb!

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #66 on: Fri Feb 07, 2020 - 06:24:36 »
Hey again lea,

Here’s where it appears that we agree:

#1)  that the NHNE Age was the anticipated SINGLE “Age to come” of Ephesians 1:21.  “...not only in this age (when the Old Covenant elements were passing away) but also in that which is to come” (the NHNE Age that was “about to come” in Paul’s immediate future).

#2)  that the PLURAL “Ages to come” in Ephesians 2:7 would also include the anticipated joys of an after-life existence prepared for us by Christ in heaven.  “That in the ages to come, he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.” 

That “kindness” we do not need to wait to experience in an after-life existence - we can also experience a  generous foretaste of that grace and kindness here in this age of the current NHNE, even before our death and the final resurrection.  In other words, those plural “ages to come” in Eph. 2:7 from Paul’s perspective in time were referring to ALL of those ages future to him - which included that soon-coming age of the NHNE we are in now, and ALSO the ages of eternity following the future resurrection that your second commenter mentioned.

And again for emphasis - AGES by mere definition have both a beginning AND an ending point, although ETERNITY as well as God’s KINGDOM RULE that flows through an endless series of ages do not have a conclusion. 

That means the conditions of the NHNE ages on earth will have a culmination point before the ages of an afterlife of eternity’s heaven begin for us.  That CULMINATION POINT OF TRANSITION between the sets of ages in our future is the point of the final judgment and the third resurrection.  A transition and culmination point that most Full-Preterists deny, since most acknowledge only two ages total.  There are definitely more than just the two ages of Ephesians 1:21.

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #67 on: Fri Feb 07, 2020 - 10:52:00 »
Hi Dafydd,

With all due respect to the labor that Russell put into his Parousia, he missed the common denominator between Rev. 12’s “short time” and Rev. 20’s “little season” after the millennium had expired.  That common denominator is Rev. 20’s “FIRST resurrection” (that of “Christ the FIRST-fruits” and the 144,000 First-fruits who arose from the dead with Him in Matt. 27:53-53), and the Rev. 12:11 link to the shed blood of the resurrected and ascended Lamb.  That shed blood accomplished salvation for the saints with God’s acceptance of the spotless Lamb’s sacrifice.   The context of Christ’s resurrection setting the stage is the common temporal factor to both Rev. 12:7-12 and Rev. 20:4-7.

In Rev. 20:5, the 144,000 “First-fruits” were the comparatively small fraction - the “remnant of the dead” who arose with Christ in Matt. 27:52-53 and “lived again” in the “First resurrection” when the millennium had just expired - and when Satan had just been loosed for his “short time”.

Rev. 12’s war in heaven between Satan’s forces and Michael’s took place while Christ was in the grave.  But as soon as Jesus ascended to His Father that morning after the resurrection, His blood sacrifice on heaven’s mercy seat was what cast Satan out of heaven as the “accuser of the brethren” in heaven’s courtroom (since it took the blood of the crucified Lamb to overcome Satan in Rev. 12:11). 

Once Satan could no longer fight against mankind in heaven, he re-doubled his wrathful efforts on earth in the early days of the church, after he was cast out of heaven down to the earth with his angels.

Saul’s persecution of the saints during that 3 1/2 years was the “flood” the Dragon / Satan cast out of his mouth to try to overcome the church in its earliest stages.  But Saul’s conversion on the road to Damascus “swallowed up” that “flood” and “helped the woman” by halting Satan’s 1,260-days / time, times, and half-time period of church persecution in those early days of the church at Jerusalem.

This halt of persecution by Saul’s conversion enraged Satan even further (Rev. 12:17).  As a “roaring lion” in that “short time” and “little season” after the millennium had expired in AD 33, his intent during the little time he had left was to deceive as many as possible with corrupted doctrine and beliefs combined with other periods of persecution towards the saints.

Satan, his angels, and every unclean spirit  knew the Isaiah 24:21-23, 27:1, Ezekiel 28:18-19, and Zechariah 13:2 prophesies that predicted when they would be imprisoned in Jerusalem and destroyed there after many days of being confined in the city.  Rev. 18:2 confirms this period of imprisonment for every unclean spirit in the city before their final destruction in Jerusalem’s Lake of Fire.

By working furiously to deceive the nations in that “little season” of years from AD 33 until he and his angels were imprisoned in Jerusalem in AD 66, Satan gathered together the armies of the nations in Israel to battle each other.  This was a case when “every man’s sword shall be against his brother” (as Ezekiel 38:21 described Gog’s army) in the civil war period of the Zealot armies fighting each other from AD 66 through AD 70.

This “last insurrection of evil” as you call it Dafydd, was not describing the scheduled end for all evil at the end of human history, but was a battle led by Simon bar Gioras the Zealot leader with his huge army coming against Jerusalem in AD 69.  Actual physical battle did take place, in which God destroyed all the combatants by defeating them with the Roman army that came against those competing Zealot leaders in April of AD 70.  Literal fire prevailed in the city at the close of the AD 70 conflict, especially at the Temple site.  So God sending “fire out of heaven” to devour Gog’s army was not merely a metaphor.

The dead of “Gog’s” army (that of Simon bar Gioras and his Zealot forces) was strewn all over the mountains of Israel (Ezekiel 39:4) particularly the 7 mountains that encircled Jerusalem.  It literally took 7 months to bury all of Gog’s dead in the plain of Jordan at the top of the Dead Sea, as well as 7 literal years to burn up the wooden weaponry used in this conflict.  If this battle of Gog was to be at the close of human history, the 7 months of burial and 7 years of post-war cleanup would not even be necessary, and would not be taking place.




Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #68 on: Fri Feb 07, 2020 - 11:45:03 »
from 3R's,
Quote
And again for emphasis - AGES by mere definition have both a beginning AND an ending point, although ETERNITY as well as God’s KINGDOM RULE that flows through an endless series of ages do not have a conclusion.

That means the conditions of the NHNE ages on earth will have a culmination point before the ages of an afterlife of eternity’s heaven begin for us.  That CULMINATION POINT OF TRANSITION between the sets of ages in our future is the point of the final judgment and the third resurrection.  A transition and culmination point that most Full-Preterists deny, since most acknowledge only two ages total.  There are definitely more than just the two ages of Ephesians 1:21.

I disagree with your interpretation of "ages to come." You are hard pressed again with your 3R's in Scripture. I don't think you can overcome the proof of 1 Corinthians 10:11, NASB: "Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come."

Some versions say the "culmination" of the ages. Now, what the ends of the ages have come precisely means, you know math. The end of the prior "ages" or the end of the Old Covenant age is the "mean" end that meets the "mean" beginning of the New Covenant age.

Then we see again in Heb 9:26 "But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself."

Scripture says there that Jesus appeared once and for all times at the end of the O.C. age and beginning of the one, N.C. age.

AD30-70 was the transition period, and the O.C. law was still in effect until AD70.

Since Jesus said in Matt.5:18, For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one dot or one mark will pass from the law until all be fulfilled.

And no indication of another corporate resurrection after all was fulfilled by Jesus and the New heaven and earth arrived, transitioned, etc.

Believers go directly to heaven now when they die. No waiting in Hades as in O.C. times.  ::smile::

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #69 on: Fri Feb 07, 2020 - 13:59:23 »
Hi lea,

I have no problem with I Cor. 10:11 speaking about “the ends of the ages”, or “the culmination of the ages” up to that point in time.  Let’s use Christ’s simple example of the leaven parable.  It proves another culmination point BEYOND AD 70.

Have you ever seen a loaf of bread made from scratch?  It’s a perfect comparison to all of fallen human history from the Fall in the Garden of Eden to the final third resurrection. 

Bread takes two separate risings with a punch-down of the dough in the middle.  There’s a reason for this.  Leaven at the first rising makes these huge unsightly air holes throughout the dough.  Just like the presence of God’s kingdom in this world used to be concentrated in distinct clusters such as Noah’s family, Abraham’s family, then only the nation of Israel, etc.  It was not well distributed throughout the pagan world, just like the huge air holes produced by leaven in the first rising are not well-distributed throughout the dough.

Then comes the punch-down of the dough after a few hours, and a vigorous kneading process that develops the elasticity of the gluten in the dough and gives it a stronger form.  To all appearances, it looks as if all the work of the leaven has disappeared.  Not so.  What this squashing and kneading process does for the second rising stage is to spread the leaven into tiny well-distributed air pockets throughout the loaf sitting in the pan.    The whole loaf in the second rising is evenly affected by the leaven’s influence.

The AD 70 era that you and I are well familiar with, lea, is a duplicate of this mid-point punch-down and kneading process of the  bread dough.  To all appearances, those first-century persecutions that “wore out the saints” at this “culmination of the ages” seemed to have squashed flat the Christian influence in the world, and the passing away of the Old Covenant trappings appeared to have left a void.  Not so.  God had only used the stress of that period to “knead” and strengthen the form of the New Covenant church, and allow it to steadily spread its influence into every corner of the world in tiny, well-distributed pockets.  The great commission is still ours to perform. 

This is very much on target with Dafydd’s post theme of “bottom-up” effects of the kingdom in this world.

The point of this leaven parable that the Full-Preterist misses is the word “UNTIL”.  The leaven of the kingdom spreads “UNTIL the whole is leavened.”  There is a STOPPING POINT to this parable.  Leaven is allowed to develop UNTIL it fills the bread dough, and not a minute longer.  If the baker waits too long, the leaven swells too much, and the dough collapses under its own weight.  At the prime moment when the loaf has doubled in bulk, into the oven it goes to stop the leaven process, and yield a perfect, tasty result.

Same thing for the spread of evangelism in this world.  God has designed a STOPPING POINT for the development of His kingdom in this fallen world.  At His predetermined time at the end of the New Covenant Ages, He will halt the “leaven” of the kingdom at a final judgment and resurrection.  The kingdom of God will then transition to the ages of eternity in the saints’ after-life existence. 

Daniel’s growing rock that strikes the image  presents the very same growth process as the leaven.  The rock grows UNTIL it fills the earth.  A STOPPING POINT, or a culmination point - just like that of the leaven. 

 

     
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