Author Topic: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"  (Read 956 times)

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Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #70 on: Sat Feb 08, 2020 - 10:54:03 »
3R's,
No. Again, there is no 3rd resurrection in Scripture!

You misunderstand the Parable of the Leaven and Daniel's rock that fills the whole earth.

The leaven is the GOSPEL. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

The Kingdom’s influence will be complete.
And of the loaf, Jesus said till it was all leavened. No part of the loaf,  that is the world, will be untouched by the influence of the kingdom   

So no, there is no ending point in your "ages" theory for bringing the gospel to their or our known world!   
We are not speaking about the whole world being Christians someday. The parable and the metaphor denote only the influence of the gospel of the Kingdom and not the whole world's conversion. (would be nice, but not totally realistic).

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #70 on: Sat Feb 08, 2020 - 10:54:03 »

Offline robycop3

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #71 on: Sat Feb 08, 2020 - 11:30:21 »
  Actually, Jesus established the New Covenant when he first saved one during His ministry, as the one He saved no longer had to follow the rules of sacrifice, etc. Jesus first mentioned the NT at the "Last Supper". He sealed the NC with His death, as a will or testament doesn't go into full effect til the death of the testator.

  And obviously, we don't know God's stopping point for the growth of His kingdom. It's very-apparent that it hasn't spread too far in the world yet. But neither has it become a boulder which has struck down the kingdoms yet. the "feet" of the statue in Daniel's vision will be the antichrist's empire, where the boulder of God's kingdom will strike.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #72 on: Sat Feb 08, 2020 - 11:54:50 »
Hi again lea,

Of course, I never said that a kind of universal conversion of the entire world would result from the effect of the leaven of the kingdom.  There will always be “sheep” and “goats”; “bastards” and “sons”; “wheat” and “tares”, etc. until the end of the New Covenant Age.

You have emphasized the exact word that I would use to describe what “leaven” is.  It is an “INFLUENCE” upon its surroundings.  This influence can be  used for either good or bad, depending on the context (the leaven of the Pharisees - bad, or the leaven of God’s kingdom - good).

This GOOD influence of God’s kingdom will eventually prevail throughout the world at the end of fallen mankind’s history.  Sort of like Trump’s fiscal policies are creating a “rising tide that tends to float all ships”, so to speak.  The increase of the INFLUENCE of God’s kingdom prevailing in the world can create blessings across the board, even for those who are not sons of God. 

But I should say that you are still ignoring completely the key word “UNTIL” in this leaven parable.  Fallen humanity living in this world does not go on perpetually without having to give an account before God at some point.  Sin has a certain day of judgment-accounting.  God may be LONG-suffering today with the presence of wickedness in the world He created, but He is not going to tolerate it for an eternity.   A day of reckoning for the dead is scheduled, even though God planned to do this in stages (AD 70, and AD 3033 at the end of 7,000 years of fallen man’s history on this planet.)

“...for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.   So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”  (Rom. 14:10-12). 

Doesn’t sound as if there are any exceptions to this, even for those living under the New Covenant.
« Last Edit: Sat Feb 08, 2020 - 11:57:36 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #73 on: Sat Feb 08, 2020 - 12:21:17 »
3R's,
There are no exceptions to this except the apostle Paul is speaking to saved Christians in Romans 14.

Also, he applies the quote from Isa.45:23 as to happening in the "end times."

True Israel would not come into condemnation as the "synagogue of Satan" Jews would.

Have to post and run. Much to do. God Bless!

Offline Dafydd

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #74 on: Tue Feb 11, 2020 - 20:22:25 »
This topic has caused quite a deal of debate, and that is good and healthy. But can we also go beyond debate (although I don't want to see it stop!) and consider how we might also contribute to the practical application of the subject of bottom-up optimillennialism? I believe that God is working through his people - Christ's Body on earth - to bring about his Kingdom rule. But only as Christ's people yield to the inward presence of Christ through the Holy Spirit and cease to govern in their own (supposed) power can this come about. Most of the debate here is about whether the rule of Christ has already begun in the world. But we are all surely agreed that Christ rules the church and that his rule there would be complete if only Christians allowed themselves to be truly governed by him. Galatians 2:20 is a key verse. Paul acted, not from his own self (he had persecuted the church) but from Christ within, and if Paul needed to do this, so must we. But if Christ rules through the individual, he rules through the collection of individuals who share his Spirit in common - the church. Whatever our beliefs re the 1,000 years (whether it is still future or not), we can at least demonstrate the sort of rule that Christ will eventually have by modelling it in the church.

I have a post in the general discussion for Jan. 22 this year "Next phase of church reform and the future of the world" and an article at daffydd.simplesite.com. I humbly ask that readers pray and meditate on what is expressed there, as I sincerely believe that God has led me to these conclusions. If you come to agree, then please discuss these articles with Christian groups and, God willing, put them into practice wherever possible. Maybe God is starting a new movement here and calling you to give it birth!!!

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #74 on: Tue Feb 11, 2020 - 20:22:25 »



 

     
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