Author Topic: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"  (Read 933 times)

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Offline Dafydd

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Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« on: Thu Nov 21, 2019 - 19:27:33 »
What I call "optimillennialism" ("OM" for short) here is very broadly defined. It includes any eschatological position that believes Christ to be ruling now; that the Kingdom has already come in some sense,  is increasing through history and will be completed within the present historical epoch. There is also the corollary that Christians play a role in the increasing manifestation of the Kingdom by actively working for it. Such a position covers postmillennialism and most forms of preterism. The differences between these various positions can be ignored for the present purpose.

Basically,OM take two forms: theonomic or "top down" and (what might be termed) revivalist/pietistic/mystical or "bottom up". A prominent exponent of the former is Rushdoony and, of the latter, Jonathan Edwards.

The vision of the former is the transformation or reconstruction of society along Christian lines as brought about by Christians in government who, in effect, legislate for Christian morality as the basis of society. It aims at establishing a theocracy in which Christian rulers are said to be the viceroys of God. The Old Testament theocracy is, in essence, their model for the Millennium.

By contrast, the vision of the alternative form is for the building up of Christian influence within society through the conversion of individuals. As more people turn to Christ, so "Christian morality" will increase within society. This will be reflected both in who is elected to government (in a democracy) and in the sort of legislation introduced and supported.

In my opinion, the biggest problem with the first form is that it assumes that godliness can be legislated into existence. But the theocracy of the Old Testament failed. I believe that it was destined to fail, because only by demonstrating its weaknesses could human beings be taught that they are totally incapable of acting as God's viceroys. It is probably noteworthy that in the New Testament, Jesus never attempted to revive the old theocracy. In fact, he always refused to do so. Had he ridden a horse instead of a donkey into Jerusalem on what we now call Palm Sunday, history would have been very different. Horses were ridden by warriors and if Jesus had appeared as such, violent revolution would surely have broken out and he would have been proclaimed King. It is worth pondering that it was Satan who offered Jesus the position of ruling the kingdoms of the world!

Concerning the bottom up OM, it is an historical fact that great revivals can have profound effects on wider society. Note how the early Methodist awakening led to social reform in England and how the villages of Wales responded to the great revival that swept through the land during the first decade of last century. Nevertheless, it is also true that revivals tend to be like meteors, lighting up the landscape for a short while and then fading away. They can also become inward looking. Indeed, much revival preaching today seems more inclined to look away from the wider world and into ones own life in a manner that can become too one-sided.

My own position is basically bottom up, but there are some theological points which need to be addressed (and are seldom addressed) by all OM believers.

First, I do not believe that God ever intended human beings to be his viceroys (as at least some top down folk explicitly teach). A viceroy is an individual governor who rules as a representative of an absent king. The Viceroy of India, for example, ruled in place of the British monarch who was thousands of miles away and had little if any immediate knowledge of what was happening in India. But God is NOT and absent Monarch! He needs no "governor" to represent him as he rules directly. Furthermore, in the human realm, both monarchs and their viceroys are equal in each being independent persons. Only in their occupations are they very different. But God is unique. We may have been created in his image, but we are his creature totally depending upon him. He is the only complete Person. We derive our "personhood" from him. Picture the Sun and the Moon. Only the Sun produces light in the full sense. Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as moonlight - it is only sunlight reflected by the surface of the Moon. So are we only persons in so far as we reflect the Personhood of God.

We were created, not to be viceroys of God but vessels capable of containing  the Diving Presence through whom God acts within human society.  The church (i.e. the company of Christians, both locally and universally) is the Body or the Vine through which God in Christ acts in human society. The ideal is for each Christian and the church corporately to be so inwardly convicted of the individual as the vessel in which Christ is present that society increasingly becomes the Body of Christ ruled by the one Person; the one Self controlling the Body and each organ of the Body - the One who is the life of the Vine and each branch thereof.

That, I believe, is what God is calling us to realize, AND TO ACT UPON, in this age. Not just a society in which Christians are numerically dominant, but a society filled with Christians who are inwardly convicted that each "lives, yet not I but Christ lives in me". Christians having this conviction can come together and pray for collective guidance regarding any matter - social or otherwise. Only when each member of the group is inwardly convicted that a particular course of action is God's will, will this then be acted upon. Inward conviction - not "the will of the majority" or even mere consensus, but deep convicted certainty given by the Holy Spirit. Some day, I believe, the governments of the world will be run that way. Then, through his totally surrendered vessels, Christ will rule completely!

HALLELUJAH!!!
« Last Edit: Sat Nov 30, 2019 - 19:25:37 by Wycliffes_Shillelagh »

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Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« on: Thu Nov 21, 2019 - 19:27:33 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #1 on: Sat Nov 30, 2019 - 19:26:02 »
Added a little spacing to your post.  Hope you don't mind. ::smile::

Offline Dafydd

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #2 on: Wed Dec 04, 2019 - 18:50:36 »
One more point relating to the last paragraph in my post. Irrespective of what a Christian believes re eschatology, the conviction of "not I but Christ in (and living through) me" should become an habitual and spontaneous attitude. This is the ideal and from that it follows that the ideal of any meeting of Christians (where some decision is to be reached) should be completely submissive to the inward guidance of Christ. That should also be our spontaneous attitude. But for the OM, this is even more important as it has eschatological implications. As this approach becomes more and more habitual and widespread among Christians, so we will become increasingly prepared for the day when "the kingdoms of the world become the Kingdom of the Lord". As Christians' influence grows at the highest levels of society, these Christians will spontaneously act as vessels of God's presence and not be deceived into thinking that they are to be God's viceroys in the theonomic manner. In short, the teaching on this subject that the church receives today paves the way for the increasing rule of Christ (through his surrendered people) tomorrow. As I see it, it is of the uttermost importance that this teaching be promoted as widely as possible.

Offline robycop3

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #3 on: Tue Dec 10, 2019 - 10:54:44 »
  While Jesus is ruling the universe in general right now with His Father, He is obviously not ruling earth now, given the prevalence of sin. He won't rule earth til He physically, visibly returns & casts the 'beast' & false prophet directly into the lake of fire.

Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #4 on: Sun Dec 22, 2019 - 15:08:09 »
  While Jesus is ruling the universe in general right now with His Father, He is obviously not ruling earth now, given the prevalence of sin. He won't rule earth til He physically, visibly returns & casts the 'beast' & false prophet directly into the lake of fire.

Newsflash: the "earth" is part of the universe!

And your claim that Jesus (and the Father) do not rule and reign from heaven and on earth NOW- is pitiful!

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #4 on: Sun Dec 22, 2019 - 15:08:09 »



Offline robycop3

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #5 on: Mon Dec 23, 2019 - 06:12:30 »
Newsflash: the "earth" is part of the universe!

And your claim that Jesus (and the Father) do not rule and reign from heaven and on earth NOW- is pitiful!

  The prevalence of sin all over the earth proves you wrong. No getting around it.

Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #6 on: Mon Dec 23, 2019 - 20:31:20 »
Depends on who you hang around with!

Offline robycop3

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #7 on: Tue Dec 24, 2019 - 05:49:15 »
Depends on who you hang around with!

Aint no "hangingaround"; all one need do is read, hear, or watch any news medium.

Offline grandcentralstation

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #8 on: Fri Dec 27, 2019 - 07:54:27 »
  While Jesus is ruling the universe in general right now with His Father, He is obviously not ruling earth now, given the prevalence of sin. He won't rule earth til He physically, visibly returns & casts the 'beast' & false prophet directly into the lake of fire.

Jesus will not rule in a physical temple here on earth in our future. He is ruling now from his heavenly throne. Christ's kingdom is in progress in heaven and here on earth. Read these verses and you will notice a common theme regarding the spiritual temple that is already here on earth.

Hebrews 8: 1-6:

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

 
1 Corinthians 3: 16-17:

Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1 Peter 2:5:

you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

The idea of a future literal 1000 year reign of Christ in a physical temple here on earth is not what the Bible portrays. The Kingdom is in the here & now.


Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #9 on: Fri Dec 27, 2019 - 08:22:39 »
I think Dafydd’s post has made some excellent points about the “bottom up” effect that the work of the Holy Spirit has upon the nations of men.   This view is consistent with the promises Christ made about the manner in which progress of the kingdom of God increases in this world. 

The parable of the leaven, the mustard seed, Daniel’s rock growing into a mountain until it fills the earth, the growth of the wheat harvest (with the vast majority being wheat and not tares) - all these are optimistic revelations of God’s purpose for His kingdom on earth.  Especially since God promises that “...of the INCREASE of His government and of His peace there shall be no end...”

To say that God’s kingdom reign does not exist if there is any presence of sin at all on this globe is to deny the clear statements of scripture.  We are told that “...even the wrath of man shall praise him.  The remainder of wrath thou shalt restrain...”.   Sin is no impediment to God’s ability to reign.

Psalms 96:10 tells us “Say among the heathen that THE LORD REIGNETH...”. This is God’s reign over His creation, even with the presence of the unbelieving heathen within it.

Psalms 103:19 tells us “The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom REIGNETH OVER ALL.”  No exceptions mentioned - even with the presence of the wicked.

God has never intended to “zap” the entire planet into a state of simultaneous righteousness in a moment of time.  He has worked INCREMENTALLY OVER THE MILLENNIA to slowly and increasingly build His kingdom ever since the Fall in the Garden of Eden.  It will only be on the final day of the last judgment and the third resurrection when the planet will finally be purged of any remaining elements of evil humanity.  The Satanic realm He has already destroyed back in AD 70, but the children of the Devil who act like their father once did are still working iniquity in this world. 

Knowing what good He intends to finally accomplish on this globe, God can afford to be patient and long-suffering, even though many of us are impatient, and would prefer the instant gratification of seeing God “zap” everything right in a single moment.

The intended message God wants us to learn by His patient long-suffering with human iniquity is that, even with the mercy He has shown towards us, that even then we are still by nature inclined to seek darkness rather than light, unless God’s Spirit does a work within to change our nature to seek Him instead. 
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 27, 2019 - 10:16:24 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline robycop3

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #10 on: Fri Dec 27, 2019 - 12:06:03 »
Jesus will not rule in a physical temple here on earth in our future. He is ruling now from his heavenly throne. Christ's kingdom is in progress in heaven and here on earth. Read these verses and you will notice a common theme regarding the spiritual temple that is already here on earth.

Hebrews 8: 1-6:

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

 
1 Corinthians 3: 16-17:

Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1 Peter 2:5:

you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

The idea of a future literal 1000 year reign of Christ in a physical temple here on earth is not what the Bible portrays. The Kingdom is in the here & now.

  That's not what Scripture actually says. When Jesus returns, He's gonna reign on earth with a rod of iron for 1K years before stepping aside for His Father.

Rev. 19:15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.


Rev. 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

  So we plainly see Jesus IS gonna rule the earth, physically ON earth. Obviously, He isn't ruling earth yet, as is proven by the prevalence of sin. But He WILL !

Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #11 on: Fri Dec 27, 2019 - 17:06:43 »
robycop3 makes the same mistake as the Pharisees and unbelieving Jews in the first century. He's looking for a physical kingdom just like them. The biggest reason why Jews reject(ed) Jesus, even until their end in the temple. They believed God would come and save them and usher in their physical kingdom and they would rule the world (and not be a puppet nation any longer).

Offline robycop3

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #12 on: Sat Dec 28, 2019 - 06:16:54 »
robycop3 makes the same mistake as the Pharisees and unbelieving Jews in the first century. He's looking for a physical kingdom just like them. The biggest reason why Jews reject(ed) Jesus, even until their end in the temple. They believed God would come and save them and usher in their physical kingdom and they would rule the world (and not be a puppet nation any longer).

  The Revelation plainly says He will rule the nations with a rod of iron. And it also says the armies stirred up by Satan will attack "the camp of the saints", which must be on earth in order for an earthly army to attack it.

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #13 on: Sat Dec 28, 2019 - 08:39:40 »
Actually, the phrase is better translated in the Interlinear version as “HE shall SHEPHERD them with a rod of iron”.

The substance of iron for a shepherd’s rod instead of the typical choice of wood for that rod represents that an UNBROKEN shepherding of the nations will be done by Christ from then on.   He will never relinquish to another His role as the Shepherd of His sheep. 

This unbroken iron rod of Christ’s is meant to be in direct contrast to Zechariah’s example of breaking the two shepherd’s staffs that he called “Beauty” and “Bands”.   That prophecy in Zechariah 11:7-14 was a prediction of God breaking the two joined rods of Ezekiel 37:26’s covenant of peace with the people of Israel in the post-exilic return, and breaking the brotherhood between Israel and Judah; both of which took place in the civil war conditions in Israel of the AD 66-70 era.

After all the elements of that Old Covenant were burned up, Christ is now shepherding His people within all the nations with His unbroken rod of iron under the unshaken New Covenant.

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #14 on: Sat Dec 28, 2019 - 09:19:30 »
Actually, the phrase is better translated in the Interlinear version as “HE shall SHEPHERD them with a rod of iron”.

The substance of iron for a shepherd’s rod instead of the typical choice of wood for that rod represents that an UNBROKEN shepherding of the nations will be done by Christ from then on.   He will never relinquish to another His role as the Shepherd of His sheep. 

This unbroken iron rod of Christ’s is meant to be in direct contrast to Zechariah’s example of breaking the two shepherd’s staffs that he called “Beauty” and “Bands”.   That prophecy in Zechariah 11:7-14 was a prediction of God breaking the two joined rods of Ezekiel 37:26’s covenant of peace with the people of Israel in the post-exilic return, and breaking the brotherhood between Israel and Judah; both of which took place in the civil war conditions in Israel of the AD 66-70 era.

After all the elements of that Old Covenant were burned up, Christ is now shepherding His people within all the nations with His unbroken rod of iron under the unshaken New Covenant.

  Actually,  "rule with a rod of iron" means to rule in a very strict manner. Jesus won't tolerate any disobedience when He's physically here, ruling in person. He will issue the laws & rules, which will be obeyed to the letter, as Satan won't be around to interfere.

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #15 on: Sat Dec 28, 2019 - 11:06:48 »
We are told exactly when that “shepherding all the nations with a rod of iron” was going to start. 

Revelation 12:5 in the Interlinear says, ”And she brought forth a son male, who IS ABOUT TO shepherd all the nations with a rod of iron...”. This puts the fulfillment of this prophecy in the immediate time frame of the first century when Revelation was written.  God did not plan to wait until the close of human history before His Son would “rule in the midst of His enemies”.  And it does not require His physical presence standing on the earth for Him to do so.

Does Christ rule in your life as a child of God, robycop3?  Are you ever in the middle of a group of unbelievers?  Then wherever you are, Christ ruling in your heart is ruling in the middle of His enemies.  Even though the ultimate plan is for human evil to be expunged from this planet, He does not need to wait for the end of human history to do this kind of shepherding as Lord and Christ in the lives of the believers. 

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #16 on: Sat Dec 28, 2019 - 13:36:10 »
We are told exactly when that “shepherding all the nations with a rod of iron” was going to start. 

Revelation 12:5 in the Interlinear says, ”And she brought forth a son male, who IS ABOUT TO shepherd all the nations with a rod of iron...”. This puts the fulfillment of this prophecy in the immediate time frame of the first century when Revelation was written.  God did not plan to wait until the close of human history before His Son would “rule in the midst of His enemies”.  And it does not require His physical presence standing on the earth for Him to do so.

 Hoo-BOY ! You just won't abandon the hokum you've learned from Preston, Gentry, & other quacks whose purpose is to sell boox to the gullible.

  Jesus is NOT ruling the nations with a rod of iron right now, as is quite-evident frpm the prevalence of sin. Feel freeta look up what the phrase "with a rod of iron' or "rule with a rod of iron" means. it was used to describe the rule of Hitler, Stalin, franco, Fidel Castro, Pol Pot, etc.

Quote
Does Christ rule in your life as a child of God, robycop3?  Are you ever in the middle of a group of unbelievers?  Then wherever you are, Christ ruling in your heart is ruling in the middle of His enemies.  Even though the ultimate plan is for human evil to be expunged from this planet, He does not need to wait for the end of human history to do this kind of shepherding as Lord and Christ in the lives of the believers.

  Remember, Scripture says "the nations", not the individual believers. Every nation is full of UNbelievers right now. They'll be on the "endangered species list" when Jesus returns, the whole world knowing who He is, & Satan is banished. THAT'S when Jesus will rule(or "shepherd", if you prefer) with a rod of iron, that is, very strictly, with a very firm hand.

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #17 on: Sat Dec 28, 2019 - 17:27:43 »
The absolute truth about Israel's holocaust had everything to do with them not being covered with the blood of Christ. They are the heathen, just like any other unsaved country or person. Karma happens to those people outside of God's good graces.

Rev2:
25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27
‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—


So, Christ followers who lived post  "end times" were and are to put down evil in the world.


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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #18 on: Sun Dec 29, 2019 - 03:35:54 »
The absolute truth about Israel's holocaust had everything to do with them not being covered with the blood of Christ. They are the heathen, just like any other unsaved country or person. Karma happens to those people outside of God's good graces.

Rev2:
25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27
‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—


So, Christ followers who lived post  "end times" were and are to put down evil in the world.

  Well, actually, the holocaust was the culmination of the over-1800-year punishment the Jews received for rejecting & murdering Jesus. Their punishment began to lift when the nazis fell.

  And now you quote a "rod of iron" Scripture. Doesn't look like a shepherd's rod here !

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #19 on: Sun Dec 29, 2019 - 08:08:31 »
robycop3 makes the same mistake as the Pharisees and unbelieving Jews in the first century. He's looking for a physical kingdom just like them. The biggest reason why Jews reject(ed) Jesus, even until their end in the temple. They believed God would come and save them and usher in their physical kingdom and they would rule the world (and not be a puppet nation any longer).

According to Scriptures, the Pharisees didn't believe the God of the Bible, or His Word's. Zechariahs did, Simeon did, but they didn't. Had they believed God, they would have known the Christ when He came to them, as did Zechariahs.

As for the Physical Reign of the Christ on earth.

Is. 56:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

This is speaking to religious men, not kingdoms.


22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

There are still humans on the new earth here. These are the inspired Word's of God, they surely should be considered in any discussion regarding reign of Christ on earth.




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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #20 on: Sun Dec 29, 2019 - 09:41:25 »
According to Scriptures, the Pharisees didn't believe the God of the Bible, or His Word's. Zechariahs did, Simeon did, but they didn't. Had they believed God, they would have known the Christ when He came to them, as did Zechariahs.

As for the Physical Reign of the Christ on earth.

Is. 56:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

This is speaking to religious men, not kingdoms.


22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

There are still humans on the new earth here. These are the inspired Word's of God, they surely should be considered in any discussion regarding reign of Christ on earth.

  Jesus plainly said He's returning to earth. His angels said He will return in like manner as He left.

Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #21 on: Sun Dec 29, 2019 - 14:14:39 »
According to Scriptures, the Pharisees didn't believe the God of the Bible, or His Word's. Zechariahs did, Simeon did, but they didn't. Had they believed God, they would have known the Christ when He came to them, as did Zechariahs.

As for the Physical Reign of the Christ on earth.

Is. 56:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

This is speaking to religious men, not kingdoms.


22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

There are still humans on the new earth here. These are the inspired Word's of God, they surely should be considered in any discussion regarding reign of Christ on earth.

The flesh never describes a physical reign of Christ on earth after the judgment of AD70.

You jumped from Isa.56 to some verse "23," which is in Isa.66 BTW.  Isa.65-66 are one continuing message.
See all of Isaiah 65 and 66 (too much to post here)


Offline robycop3

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #22 on: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 06:28:59 »
  Well, Jesus said He will return, and I believe HIM over any goofy pret doctrine or any other man-made guesswork.

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #23 on: Tue Dec 31, 2019 - 12:56:12 »
  Well, Jesus said He will return, and I believe HIM over any goofy pret doctrine or any other man-made guesswork.
Right, but you fail to admit "when" He would return!

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #24 on: Wed Jan 01, 2020 - 07:52:46 »
Right, but you fail to admit "when" He would return!

 He will return when He returns, but the trib must come & be ended first, as Jesus Himself said.

Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #25 on: Fri Jan 03, 2020 - 19:37:11 »
He will return when He returns, but the trib must come & be ended first, as Jesus Himself said.

You can believe in a future tribulation if you like.

On the other hand, I will simply have faith in God's grace for everything.

Peace out!

Offline robycop3

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #26 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 05:56:36 »
You can believe in a future tribulation if you like.

On the other hand, I will simply have faith in God's grace for everything.

Peace out!

Well, I "like" cuz that's what SCRIPTURE says.

Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #27 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 13:05:33 »
Well, I "like" cuz that's what SCRIPTURE says.

Just don't project your pessimism on us!

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #28 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 14:37:39 »
Just don't project your pessimism on us!

Be pessimistic if you wish, but it's the TRUTH.

Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #29 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 17:44:20 »
Be pessimistic if you wish, but it's the TRUTH.

You are pessimistic. Don't try to kid this kid. You twist my words just as you twist the words of Scripture.


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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #30 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 17:48:07 »
You are pessimistic. Don't try to kid this kid. You twist my words just as you twist the words of Scripture.

  No, YOU twist Scripture, as is the pret habit. You prets try to reduce  "inconvenient" Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" status. (the "inconvenient" ones are those that prove preterism false because they haven't yet been fulfilled & prets have no excuses for that.)

Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #31 on: Sat Jan 04, 2020 - 18:13:28 »
  No, YOU twist Scripture, as is the pret habit. You prets try to reduce  "inconvenient" Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" status. (the "inconvenient" ones are those that prove preterism false because they haven't yet been fulfilled & prets have no excuses for that.)

Wow, don't get too upset! I asked you what "soon" and "at hand" meant. 
I don't have to twist Scripture to fit a paradigm.

But you seem to need all the help you can get to get around the Lord's and disciples statements.

Offline robycop3

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #32 on: Sun Jan 05, 2020 - 07:11:38 »
Wow, don't get too upset! I asked you what "soon" and "at hand" meant. 
I don't have to twist Scripture to fit a paradigm.

But you seem to need all the help you can get to get around the Lord's and disciples statements.

  No; I don't need any help. What hasn't yet  happened, hasn't yet happened. No rocket science needed, just a history book & a reality check.

Offline lea

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #33 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 11:41:57 »
  No; I don't need any help. What hasn't yet  happened, hasn't yet happened. No rocket science needed, just a history book & a reality check.

I think you're the one who needs a reality check.  Someone who knows nothing about Biblical prophetic language can never compare to those who do know.

Nothing to learn from you.

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Re: Top Down & Bottom Up "Optimillennialism"
« Reply #34 on: Sat Jan 11, 2020 - 13:57:37 »
I think you're the one who needs a reality check.  Someone who knows nothing about Biblical prophetic language can never compare to those who do know.

Nothing to learn from you.

"Biblical prophetic language" - a euphemism for "Since it didn't happen yet, I'd better make this prophecy figurative/symbolic."

  In more "other words", the FACT those events have NOT yet happened has left you clueless.

 

     
anything