Author Topic: Trinitarian translations which show that Jesus is NOT Jehovah in Zech. 12:10  (Read 3418 times)

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thethinker

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To All,

The Futurists erroneously assert that Jesus is Jehovah in Zechariah and thus conclude that Jesus will come and touch down on the Mt. of Olives. This belief is CHIEFLY based in the erroneous translation of Zechariah 12:10 by many translations.

Quote
10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on ME whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for HIM as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for HIM as one grieves for a firstborn.

NKJV


Many christians erroneously think that Jehovah is Jesus because He says that He Himself would be pierced. But the inconsistency in the NKJV can be readily seen. It says that the people will look on "ME" whom they have pierced but will mourn for "HIM" and grieve for "HIM."

How is it that they will look on "ME" but will mourn and grieve for "HIM?" This makes no sense!

I offer you two translations that have correctly translated 12:10. The first is Catholic and the second is Protestant. Both are Trinitarian and uphold the divinity of Jesus.

The New American Bible:

Quote
I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and petition; and they shall look on HIM whom they have thrust through, and they shall mourn for HIM as one mourns for an only son, and they shall grieve over HIM as one grieves over a first-born.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PUZ.HTM


Revised Standard Version:

Quote
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on HIM whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for HIM, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over HIM, as one weeps over a first-born.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/rsv/zechariah/12.html


Can you see the consistency in these translations? Jehovah was NOT saying that He Himself would be pierced. He was speaking of another (Jesus).

Then Jehovah said,

Quote
Awake, O sword, against MY Shepherd, and against the man who stand next to me," declares Jehovah of Hosts. "Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered; And I will turn My hand against the little ones.... They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, `They are My people,' And they will say, 'Jehovah is my God.' "


Compare this with what Jesus said:

Quote
Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of me this night; for it is written, "I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered. (Matthew 26:31).


Whose Shepherd? The speaker's Shepherd. The speaker is Jehovah. And Jesus is the Shepherd who was struck and his disciples scattered. Does it make any sense at all to claim that Jesus is referring to himself as "My Shepherd"? No, it is quite ridiculous. Therefore, it is absolutely conclusive that Jesus cannot be speaking in 13:7.

There were no chapter and verse divisions in the original Hebrew text written by Zechariah. The speaker in chapter 12 is still the same speaker in chapter 13. That speaker is Jehovah and is the SAME PERSON who was to come and stand on the Mt. of Olives in 14:4!

There is no evidence from the context whatsoever that Jesus would come and stand on the Mt. of Olives.

 ::announcment::Jesus is indeed called by the name Jehovah in other scriptures as I indicated in the op to another thread I started.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/who-was-to-stand-on-the-mt-of-olives-jehovah-or-jesus/

 ::announcment::But He is NOT Jehovah in the book of Zechariah. He is the Angel of Jehovah who speaks to Jehovah:

Quote
Then the Angel of Jehovah answered and said, “O Jehovah of hosts, how long will YOU not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which YOU were angry these seventy years?

Offline Linker

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The preterist says that the Lord of the O.T. was not Jesus Christ .... that Jesus Christ is not the Author of the O.T.

This teaching is heresy


This is what the Lord says:

John
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Revelation
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 07, 2012 - 12:27:39 by Linker »

larry2

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Jesus is Jehovah!
  

              ::eatingpopcorn:
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 08, 2012 - 04:35:09 by larry2 »

Offline FireSword

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Awake, O sword, against MY Shepherd, and against the man who stand next to me," declares Jehovah of Hosts. "Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered; And I will turn My hand against the little ones.... They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, `They are My people,' And they will say, 'Jehovah is my God.' "


This sound like the Father Jehovah is speaking to his right hand man the Son of God.

For it pleased the Father to bruise his Son.

Sounds like another scripture that speaks of the Sons divinity. Thanks.

raggthyme2012

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Jesus is Jehovah! 
 

Why do you feel the need to belittle in order to get your point across? Isn't this called "grace-centered" forums? I personally am not an adherent to the Roman Catholic dogma of the Trinity. I have no beef with the RCC, I've never been a Catholic. But a person can read the Scriptures by themselves with a seeking heart and find GOD and His Son, without the doctrines taught in the church. A person can also reject the Trinity doctrine outside of the JW belief that the Son is no more than a created angel made man. Even the Catholics' beloved early father Justin clearly didn't believe the one true God exists eternally as three distinct persons equal in every way. One only needs to read Dialogue with Trypho and his Apologies to see that. Yet the RCC holds him in high regard.

As far as this "religious entity" of preterism you suggest, dispensationalists like the authors of Left Behind are making millions on their books and movies which promote their own "advertisements". Do you think this pleases the Lord, making gobs of money off of the Bible in the name of entertainment? I realize that every group does it to some extent, but the more trendy dispensational/rapture ready group definitely has the corner on the market.
« Last Edit: Sun Jan 08, 2012 - 04:36:29 by larry2 »

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Offline Linker

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Do you know that the RCC holds the same exact preteristic view of the preterists on this forum?

So how do you reconcile your position?

raggthyme2012

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Do you know that the RCC holds the same exact preteristic view of the preterists on this forum?

So how do you reconcile your position?

My comment was regarding the Trinity, whether or not the RCC holds a preterist view is not my concern. I don't exactly understand what you are asking, Link.

Offline Linker

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Here's the deal

The entire escapade of preterism is false including the idea that Jesus Christ is not God

And it is the ruse of preterism that all prophecy was fulfilled in the past ["preter" is Latin for "past"] that generates many falsehoods like the topic of this posting

The early fathers of the RCC were preterists [Augustine and Oriegen] and this doctrine of preterism is still held by the Pope's "church" today

These heretics developed the view of preterism because the Lord had not returned in their day and so they begin to apostate biblical truth for their own proprietary ambitions ..... and into this void the RCC begin to grow

The popular teaching of preterism today is an off shoot of the beliefs of the RCC ..... just dressed up in a new package and sold by reprobate teachers of main stream protestant "christianity" ..... and it is growing exponentially .... just another twisting of the devil's meddling 

So you are embracing this same belief and all of it is falsehood including the idea that Jesus Christ is not God .... and if the leaders of the RCC were open about this they think the same

Preterism cuts the comprehensive biblical view off at the knees and then proceeds to fill the void with all sorts of added heresies thereby corrupting biblical truth and deceiving many unwary and unlearned people

The teachers of preterism know what they are doing and that they can fool others easily who have not taken their need for salvation seriously .... the real believer and follower of Jesus Christ does not allow this, is not slack with their spiritual growth, and is armed with enough knowledge of scripture to defend their faith      
« Last Edit: Sat Jan 07, 2012 - 17:49:54 by Linker »

raggthyme2012

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Here's the deal

The entire escapade of preterism is false including the idea that Jesus Christ is not God

And it is the ruse of preterism that all prophecy was fulfilled in the past ["preter" is Latin for "past"] that generates many falsehoods like the topic of this posting

The early fathers of the RCC were preterists [Augustine and Oriegen] and this doctrine of preterism is still held by the Pope's "church" today

These heretics developed the view of preterism because the Lord had not returned in their day and so they begin to apostate biblical truth for their own proprietary ambitions ..... and into this void the RCC begin to grow

The popular teaching of preterism today is an off shoot of the beliefs of the RCC ..... just dressed up in a new package and sold by reprobate teachers of main stream protestant "christianity" ..... and it is growing exponentially .... just another twisting of the devil's meddling

So you are embracing this same belief and all of it is falsehood including the idea that Jesus Christ is not God .... and if the leaders of the RCC were open about this they think the same

Preterism cuts the comprehensive biblical view off at the knees and then proceeds to fill the void with all sorts of added heresies thereby corrupting biblical truth and deceiving many unwary and unlearned people

The teachers of preterism know what they are doing and that they can fool others easily who have not taken their need for salvation seriously .... the real believer and follower of Jesus Christ does not allow this, is not slack with their spiritual growth, and is armed with enough knowledge of scripture to defend their faith       

I understand your issues with preterism, I've read many of your comments and enjoyed doing so. I am very interested in learning why people interpret the Bible the way they do. I use the ability God gave me to reason, to agree or disagree with the evidence they present for their position, as to whether it fits with what I believe the Lord is showing me as I read the Scriptures for myself.

I am a bit bothered by this mindset tho that people like me, who love the Lord's appearing, who recognize they're sinners in need of the mercy and grace of God in Christ and who happen to disagree with your interpretation of the Bible are ostracized as heretics on forums like these. I'm going to try to say this as kindly as I can.. you do not know me, or how I came out of a sin-filled, pagan life to trust Jesus as God's Messiah and my Lord and King. Nor how God speaks to me through His word, correcting error, bringing conviction, answering prayer and transforming my heart. Yet you assume that I am falling to preterism because I have not taken my need for salvation seriously, am not a real believer, am slack with my spiritual growth etc. I would not attempt to categorize you as such because I don't know you. I don't know how God is at work in your life, the mercies and grace He has shown you, the errors He is correcting etc. Eschatology does not save a person, forgiveness and eternal life comes through God's Son. Even a child can understand.

I never said I didn't believe Jesus to be God. I said I don't believe the Trinity doctrine is Scriptural. But no matter what I say, until I once again bow my knee to your theology I will continue to look like a backslider, like an apostate to you. Or even like someone who has only deceived themselves into thinking that they were saved from sin and death. And so be it, God knows...

thethinker

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Let us also review some major translations translated by Trinitarian Hebrew scholars:

they shall look on HIM whom they have thrust through, and they shall mourn for him (NAB)

they will look at THE ONE whom they stabbed to death (TEV: Todays English Version)

they will look at THE ONE whom they have pierced (The Jerusalem Bible)

they shall look on HIM whom they stabbed (Moffatt)

they shall look at HIM whom they have stabbed (American Translation, Goodspeed)

when they look on HIM whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him (RSV/NRSV)


The translations which say, "they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced and they shall mourn for HIM" do not make sense. The people would not be looking at the pierced one but mourning for someone else altogether.

Jehovah the speaker in 12:10 is the same speaker in 13:7 who said, "Awake O sword against MY Shepherd." He and NOT the Shepherd is the person whose feet would stand on the Mt. of Olives as He came to Sinai and the people sat at His feet to receive the law.

thinker








inthenow

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Zec 12:10  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

The hebrew word for me in that verse is ayth:
H853
את
'êth
ayth
Apparently contracted from H226 in the demonstrative sense of entity; properly self (but generally used to point out more definitely the object of a verb or preposition, even or namely): - (As such unrepresented in English.)

It appears to mean me - self. There is no Hebrew word for him in this verse but the words "as one mourneth for his only son" and "as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." indicates that "him added' is Jesus. Ofcourse that is known, but the speaker of the verse saying it is he - me, that is pierced is showing that "this, me" is the Word of God John 1:

Offline Linker

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Can you translate what you just said into simple talk for the benefit of the Forum?

Offline Bitter Sweet

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Thinker, this is such an interesting discussion.

I have a question, did Jesus understand the OT was giving prophecy about him? Did he find himself in the OT?


Offline Linker

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Learn one thing about Jesus Christ .... if nothing else

He is both God and human .... the only being in the creation with this distinction .... and all things were made by Him and through Him

..... and He is the "Word" ..... He is the Author of all of the scriptures of the Bible .... and He knows the end from the beginning of all things that can be known

There is nothing that He does not know .... He is the Alpha and the Omega [Revelation1:8] .... the same yesterday, today, and forever


Offline Merryone

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Jesus Christ fulfills all prophecy, both OT and NT, and he knew every one of them because he was the author of them, as God. Jesus Christ is found on every page of the OT.

Offline Linker

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When a Bible prophet speaks He is conveying truth from Jesus Christ Himself ..... the eternal "Word" of God

When an angelic messenger brings a vision to the prophet it is coming from Jesus Christ who is the Author of all prophecy

Lehigh

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Quote
Do you know that the RCC holds the same exact preteristic view of the preterists on this forum?

So how do you reconcile your position?
Do you know that the RCC holds the same exact preteristic view of the preterists on this forum?

So how do you reconcile your position?

Catholics do not teach "end-times" in their seminaries.  Therefore, they do not preach it. Not nearly to the extent that Protestants do.

But your statement is incorrect anyway. There are many futurists even within Catholicism- but they still focus more on Salvation issues rather than eschatological ones.

And I tend to believe their Preterism much more so than the destructive dispensational teachers in Protestantism.

Somehow, they came before you, and placed their emphasis NOT on "prophecy"

and I respectfully agree with them on Preterism.

inthenow

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Can you translate what you just said into simple talk for the benefit of the Forum?
Ha ha I sometimes don't explain things very well. Will try a diffrent way.

Both the Father and the Word of God - Jesus, are called Y'hovah, pronounced "Yeh-ho-vaw"

Gen 2:4  These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Zec 12:1  The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.


The Hebrew for Lord in those verses describing the Word of God - Jesus, is Y'hovah. It is the same person who said:

Zec 12:10  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Psa 110:1  A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
In this verse where both the Father and the Son are mentioned, the Hebrew for "LORD" is Y'hovah, and the Hebrew for "Lord" is adon adon which means Divine Master.

EdwardGoodie

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Jesus Christ fulfills all prophecy, both OT and NT, and he knew every one of them because he was the author of them, as God. Jesus Christ is found on every page of the OT.

If you really believe that, then why do you wish to hold to a theology that has a return to the old covenant temple system knowing that Jesus Christ fulfilled it.  The shadow and type was the old covenant physical temple system and the anti-type is the new covenant temple system in Jesus Christ where He is the cornerstone of that temple and we (Christians are the lively stones of that temple.

Act_4:11  This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Eph_2:20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
1Pe_2:6  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe_2:7  Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,


1Pe_2:5  Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.


HRoberson

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Jesus Christ fulfills all prophecy, both OT and NT,
What do you mean by this?

Offline Merryone

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Jesus Christ fulfills all prophecy, both OT and NT,
What do you mean by this?



Jesus has fulfilled and will fulfill all prophecy concerning the Messiah, His coming and coming judgment.

Offline Linker

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"And I tend to believe their Preterism"


I bet that you do ... birds of a feather flock together

.... the difference .... the RCC is just more subtle about their preteristic ideas than you are

Offline Bitter Sweet

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I have a question, did Jesus understand the OT was giving prophecy about him? Did he find himself in the OT?

Maybe I didn't ask my question the right way, I always jump to the point and I apologize because that's just how I think.

When Jesus was reading the OT, did he realize it was talking about him? And that's when he started his ministry the first time?

Was it like he was reading the story of his life or at least bits and pieces of it? Will it happen that way again when he returns, but this time he'll be reading the NT or he won't read the NT since it is completed? But even if he did read the NT he would still find his life story and family's life story in both the OT and NT? That would be a weird feeling.

Offline Linker

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Jesus already knows all that is written in His Word .... He is the Author and has known all things since the beginning of creation

Offline Bitter Sweet

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Then why did he read from the OT? Shouldn't he have been able to preach without it?

Offline Linker

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He read for the benefit of those who were listening .... just like you should be

You need to study up on just who Jesus Christ is because by your statements ........ you do not know

Offline Bitter Sweet

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I thought everything was already written in his heart. It would be since he is the author.

Can someone give me a better explanation other than linker?

raggthyme2012

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I thought everything was already written in his heart. It would be since he is the author.

Can someone give me a better explanation other than linker?

Well, I'm not of the dispensational persuasion but I personally believe Jesus grew in wisdom and stature and learned the Scriptures just as a man would. I don't think He was all-knowing while in flesh because He admitted that even He knew not everything the Father kept in His own authority. He relied completely on His Father, totally submitted and dependent. That's my understanding of it anyway..

Offline Bitter Sweet

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I thought everything was already written in his heart. It would be since he is the author.

Can someone give me a better explanation other than linker?

Well, I'm not of the dispensational persuasion but I personally believe Jesus grew in wisdom and stature and learned the Scriptures just as a man would. I don't think He was all-knowing while in flesh because He admitted that even He knew not everything the Father kept in His own authority. He relied completely on His Father, totally submitted and dependent. That's my understanding of it anyway..

I really don't know where I am on the dispensational thing either because I don't even know what that means. But I think when he read the OT, and he was reading things that were exactly about his life, he figured out who he was then. That's why he could teach it like no other, it was coming from his first hand experience.

I don't think he always knew he was the Messiah.

Offline Linker

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"I don't think he always knew He was the Messiah"


What scripture can you give to substantiate your idea?

He has always known from the very beginning [John 1:1-14; Revelation 1:1-8]]

Offline Bitter Sweet

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"I don't think he always knew He was the Messiah"


What scripture can you give to substantiate your idea?


I say I think because Jesus started his ministry later in life. Unless there is scripture about him teaching all his life, I can't remember that scripture.

Offline Bitter Sweet

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Here it is;

Luke 2:52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

He had to grow into it.

What does it mean to grow in favor with God?


thethinker

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Jesus is Jehovah!
  

              ::eatingpopcorn:


The Father is Jehovah too. But He is NOT the person who took the form of a dove and descended upon Jesus.

Jesus is Jehovah. But He is NOT the person who was to stand on the Mt. of Olives (13:7-4:5).

Your theology denies the Trinity because it does NOT maintain the Father and the Son as distinct persons.

Jehovah in the immediate context is the Father and NOT Jesus (13:7-4:5).

thinker




thethinker

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Learn one thing about Jesus Christ .... if nothing else

He is both God and human .... the only being in the creation with this distinction .... and all things were made by Him and through Him

..... and He is the "Word" ..... He is the Author of all of the scriptures of the Bible .... and He knows the end from the beginning of all things that can be known

There is nothing that He does not know .... He is the Alpha and the Omega [Revelation1:8] .... the same yesterday, today, and forever




Learn this also about Jesus Christ. He is a DISTINCT person from the Father. To fail to acknowledge this is to DENY THE TRINITY. Jehovah in the immdiate context of Zechariah 13:7-4:4 is CLEARLY the Father.

Jesus is Jehovah!
 

              ::eatingpopcorn:


The Father is Jehovah too. But He is NOT the person who took the form of a dove and descended upon Jesus.

Jesus is Jehovah. But He is NOT the person who was to stand on the Mt. of Olives (13:7-4:5).

Your theology denies the Trinity because it does NOT maintain the Father and the Son as distinct persons.

Jehovah in the immediate context is the Father and NOT Jesus (13:7-4:5).

thinker





raggthyme2012

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When I read Zech 12 and then Matthew 5... I wonder if His feet standing on the Mount of Olives doesn't tie into the Olivet discourse. The reason I say this is because the Israelites were said to sit at the LORD's feet to receive the law (Deut 33), and Jesus in my opinion is the giver of the new covenant law (which is not new but a fulfilling/perfecting of the Mosaic law). He even indicated that those who would not hear and do His sayings which He taught while on the mount would come saying Lord, Lord.. but would be rejected as "lawless."

Just a thought.

 

     
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