Author Topic: True Replacement Theology  (Read 3742 times)

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thethinker

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Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2012, 01:39:29 PM »
Okay, I'll state it again for the slower ones in the class...

Observe the below highlighted verses in context.

The Preterist is at a loss to explain how the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 CE is different than the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 586 BCE except to go into a dull interpolation as to the latter being different because the Lord turned away from Israel and in their place... fill in the blank (replacement theology by any other name)

Matthew 24 (KJV)
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



What's your point? Are you saying that the destruction of the temple in ad70 was not the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy because the foundational stones still remain? Every stone of the temple proper was thrown down. The foundation stones remain but Jesus was NOT talking about those stones. According to Mark he was speaking only of the stones that adorned the temple proper.

What is your definition of the term "great tribulation?" There was none like it before or after it because of the severity of God's judgment. God disowned the Jews forever AFTER the elect remnant of Jesus' generation was saved. Paul said that the remnant of his day "has obtained" the promise. After that God was done with them.

Are you calculating things in terms of numbers or what?

thinker

Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2012, 07:33:23 PM »

What's your point?

That the destruction of 70 CE cannot be the Great Tribulation.

Matthew 24:21 (KJV)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The destruction of the city and temple occurred previously in 586 BCE.

 

Give to those who hold to untruth
Questions they cannot answer and
Answers they cannot question

Lehigh

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Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2012, 07:44:51 PM »

What's your point?

That the destruction of 70 CE cannot be the Great Tribulation.

Matthew 24:21 (KJV)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The destruction of the city and temple occurred previously in 586 BCE.


Well, it was.  And all of the book of Revelation was fulfilled by 70AD too. 

Reality is, we live by faith, not prophecy.


Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2012, 07:49:31 PM »

What's your point?

That the destruction of 70 CE cannot be the Great Tribulation.

Matthew 24:21 (KJV)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The destruction of the city and temple occurred previously in 586 BCE.


Well, it was.  And all of the book of Revelation was fulfilled by 70AD too. 

Reality is, we live by faith, not prophecy.


Apparently you believe we live by faith in your say so, Lehigh. Because all you added to the conversation was "Yeah huh!"

I guess you are wanting a "Nuh uh," response from me.

I gave up that form of arguing 45+ years ago.

"Uh huh" You
"Nuh uh"  Me
"Uh huh" You
"Nuh uh"  Me
"Uh huh" You
"Nuh uh"  Me
"Uh huh" You
"Nuh uh"  Me
"Uh huh" You
"Nuh uh"  Me
"Uh huh" You
"Nuh uh"  Me
"Uh huh" You
"Nuh uh"  Me
"Uh huh" You
"Nuh uh"  Me
"Uh huh" You
"Nuh uh"  Me


Give to those who hold to untruth
Questions they cannot answer and
Answers they cannot question

Lehigh

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Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2012, 08:02:15 PM »


 Doesn't look like you gave it up though.   ::giggle::

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Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2012, 08:02:15 PM »



Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2012, 09:00:21 PM »


 Doesn't look like you gave it up though.   ::giggle::

Sure I did.

Just simply showed why I gave it up.  ::noworries::
Give to those who hold to untruth
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Lehigh

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Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2012, 11:03:29 AM »


 Doesn't look like you gave it up though.   ::giggle::

Sure I did.

Just simply showed why I gave it up.  ::noworries::

Oh, I would think it was because of fear of the Lord (Pr.8:13)

But I still disagree with your condescending remarks and statements towards Preterism . (ie: replacement theology and antisemitism)  One doesn't have to be ignorant of such mysteries in the Bible. And replacement theology and antisemitism is an answer for the uninformed. An obsolete argument.

Preterists believe in Covenant theology.  You are misinformed for whatever reason. Knowledge increases when one studies from an unbiased mindset about prophecy, and pays attention to God's literal timing words. 

Many former futurists did well to humble themselves, to  listen and learn about Preterism and Covenant theology, and then had wisdom to acknowledge the difference.

Christ is in us now. He is here already.

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.  Rev.3:20


Again, the just live by faith -  not prophecy.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.

Offline DaveW

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Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2012, 12:09:21 PM »
OK so what I dont get about preterism is When exactly did the 2 witnesses of Revelation come, When did they rise from the dead, how did the whole earth see them at the same time (back in the first century) and when did the Bekah valley fill with so much blood that it was up to the horses' bridles?

When did that all happen?

And when did the New Jerusalem decend?

Yes I take these all as LITERAL occurances.

Lehigh

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Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2012, 06:07:05 PM »
OK so what I dont get about preterism is When exactly did the 2 witnesses of Revelation come, When did they rise from the dead, how did the whole earth see them at the same time (back in the first century) and when did the Bekah valley fill with so much blood that it was up to the horses' bridles?

When did that all happen?

And when did the New Jerusalem decend?

Yes I take these all as LITERAL occurances.
They definitely are not literal. No reasonable person would ever believe that.
Rev. uses figurative language, metaphors, as well as hyperboles to describe the events that would happen "soon."
Josephus describes the land and rivers being filled with blood, so as to hide the bodies that were slain therein in his War of the Jews.

And there are a few interpretations for the Two witnesses. I do not worship such an obscure figurative passage. h But here are 2 in the preterist camp:
Who were the two witnesses in Rev.11:3? [Answers to common questions in Preterism by Richard Anthony]

Answer #1: The two witnesses are the Law and the Prophets. These are the ones that testified against the Jews for the 3 and ½ years in the siege. However, they killed the two witnesses in a fit of rage, similar to the way they killed the Word Incarnate, Christ. They ascend to heaven to be with the Christ and His Bride because they are part of the Heavenly Jerusalem. They are raised after 3 and ½ days to testify to God's power and judgment of spiritual Sodom, where our Lord was crucified. Many Old Testament allusions are in this passage for the Law and the Prophets. I don't think that they are actually people, but personified to show the way that the Jews treated those they abhorred in the siege. They didn't even bury them, a sign of ultimate degradation. They rejected the Law and the Prophets for making merry against the Lord and living in abominations. They got the curses from Deut. 28 in return. May the Lord recompense all according to their deeds, and this He did to that "wicked and adulterous generation". Notice after the 2 witnesses were taken up to heaven in Rev.11:12, a few verses later in verse 19 the Ark of the Testament is opened in heaven, which is the Law.

Answer #2: The 'Two Witnesses' could also be the Old and New Testaments. . . . The essential purpose of the Scriptures is to give witness to the mercy and verity of God. Our Lord commands, "Search the Scriptures, . . .they are they which testify [bear witness] of Me" (John 5:39). This was addressed to the Jews, and described the character and office of the Old Testament. The New Testament is similarly pronounced the giver of testimony. "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations" (Matthew 24:14). These declarations and considerations are sufficient to sustain the conclusion that the Old and New Testaments are Christ's two witnesses.

As for Rev.11:5, to hurt the word of God is to oppose, corrupt, or pervert its testimony, and turn people away from it. Against those who do this work, fire proceedeth out of their mouth to devour them, that is, judgment of fire is pronounced in that word against such. Notice what the people do after the death of the two witnesses: "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth." -Rev.11:9-10.

Offline JohnDB70X7

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Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2012, 09:21:12 PM »
And that's the rub, isn't it?

Preterists take vague things like "soon / near / at hand" literally while they take specifically spelled out things like the two witnesses and the bekah valley filled with blood to the height of the horses bridles as not literal / spiritualized...

 ::discernment::
Give to those who hold to untruth
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Offline DaveW

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Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2012, 04:47:47 AM »
"... no reasonable person..."

I do not take the bible as a 'reasonable' book nor the worship of the Deity recorded in it as 'reasonable' either.

They are beyond reason into the supernatural.  The setting aside of the laws of nature and physics and even logic.

The things of God [spiritual] cannot be comprehended by the natural [reasonable] man.  1 Cor 2.14

Now the natural  man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Lehigh

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Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2012, 03:17:08 PM »
"... no reasonable person..."

I do not take the bible as a 'reasonable' book nor the worship of the Deity recorded in it as 'reasonable' either.

They are beyond reason into the supernatural.  The setting aside of the laws of nature and physics and even logic.

The things of God [spiritual] cannot be comprehended by the natural [reasonable] man.  1 Cor 2.14

Now the natural  man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Well friend, you can't understand anything without your natural brain to assist.  Whether a believer or not.

Lehigh

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Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2012, 03:19:40 PM »
And that's the rub, isn't it?

Preterists take vague things like "soon / near / at hand" literally while they take specifically spelled out things like the two witnesses and the bekah valley filled with blood to the height of the horses bridles as not literal / spiritualized...

 ::discernment::

The only thing that remains vague are your answers.

Offline MixedEmotions

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Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2012, 07:13:37 PM »
Another Spanish Inquisition-type act...

Please explain how the original post is preterist in content?


True Replacement Theology is one in which Jesus Christ is replaced with a carnal kingdom (John18:36, Luke 17:20-21, Hebrews 12:18) in the Old Covenant format, in the Middle East, instead of IN JESUS CHRIST, the new covenant (John 4:21-24).

Looks like the the only thing to be tolerated on this grace-centered (?) forum is dispensationalism...

Good luck guys.