Author Topic: True Replacement Theology  (Read 4212 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

EdwardGoodie

  • Guest
True Replacement Theology
« on: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 10:00:01 »
True Replacement Theology is one in which Jesus Christ is replaced with a carnal kingdom (John18:36, Luke 17:20-21, Hebrews 12:18) in the Old Covenant format, in the Middle East, instead of IN JESUS CHRIST, the new covenant (John 4:21-24).

Offline Seriousseeker

  • 60 Years In Christ
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
  • Manna: 37
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #1 on: Wed Feb 29, 2012 - 16:58:11 »
An interesting way to say it.

Offline OurGodIsOne

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 69
  • Manna: 5
    • View Profile
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #2 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 10:04:02 »
I agree, that is interesting.

EdwardGoodie

  • Guest
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #3 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 11:11:37 »
For individuals who hold to a paradigm of a revitalization of the Middle East people (viewed as Jews) some time in our future flies in the face of NT Scripture.

Hundreds of OT Scripture verses are used to show fulfillment (not replacement) of the promises made to Israel.  The fulfillment comes through Jesus Christ and His new covenant.  Jesus Christ was sent to the house of Israel...

Thousands upon thousands of Jews were saved in the 40-year period during the apostles ministry.  These constituted the 144,000 (12 X 12 X 1,000) from Revelation.

How one can totally negate the hundreds of OT Scriptures being applied to the church (saved Israel) is utterly beyond me...this is where dual fulfillment comes from, I guess.  Strange though that the apostles only illuminated the OT prophecies as concerning the church.

It reminds me of how one fellow on a different forum ADAMANTLY believes Zechariah 12:10 is a yet future prophecy at Christ's alleged future coming (to match dispensational tenets).

I keep telling him that it was fulfilled at Calvary:

John 19:33-37 - But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:  
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.  
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.  
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.  
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.  


In this particular passage, two Scriptures were mentioned as being fulfilled at Calvary:

Psalms 34:20 - He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.  

and

Zechariah 12:10 - And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.  

I asked this fella if he thought it was more appropriate that Christ be mourned for what He had endured at Calvary or if He should be mourned at His second coming, knowing that His coming was "a glorious appearing" (Titus 2:13) and so very contrary to Luke 9:26.



« Last Edit: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 11:36:37 by EdwardGoodie »

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14276
  • Manna: 189
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #4 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 11:22:40 »
Actually the mourning by the Jews will be that they went astray and rejected HIM for these past 2 millenia. (when they realized they killed off their own Messiah and systematicly led people AWAY from Him and His Salvation)

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #4 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 11:22:40 »



Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14276
  • Manna: 189
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #5 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 11:26:01 »
Now you know that IF replacement theology was correct, that the gentile church replaced the Jews, then God is a liar.

It might also follow (since the church has not had that great a record either) that maybe mohammed was correct in saying that Islam replaced christianity.

EdwardGoodie

  • Guest
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #6 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 11:36:04 »
Actually the mourning by the Jews will be that they went astray and rejected HIM for these past 2 millenia. (when they realized they killed off their own Messiah and systematicly led people AWAY from Him and His Salvation)

Dave, that would be more akin to the Jews mourning themselves and the nasty deeds that were done by them rather than how the prophet Zechariah plainly states in 12:10:

Zechariah 12:10 - And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.   

It's a moot point anyway.  The prophecy is clearly fulfilled at Calvary, just as John says...but not every person believes Scripture when it is contrary to what they have been taught in their paradigm.



EdwardGoodie

  • Guest
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #7 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 11:42:36 »
Now you know that IF replacement theology was correct, that the gentile church replaced the Jews, then God is a liar.

It might also follow (since the church has not had that great a record either) that maybe mohammed was correct in saying that Islam replaced christianity.

Why do you say Gentile church as if that was some non-Hebrew designation?  The apostles went from synagogue to synagogue to establish the church...a simple word search on "synagogue" makes this abundantly clear.

I'll just ignore your Islam statement for the foolishness it is...

Please explain why the apostles illuminated hundreds of OT prophecies as applying to the new covenant church.  That's all.

thethinker

  • Guest
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #8 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 11:53:10 »
Now you know that IF replacement theology was correct, that the gentile church replaced the Jews, then God is a liar.

It might also follow (since the church has not had that great a record either) that maybe mohammed was correct in saying that Islam replaced christianity.

There was no such thing as a "Gentile" church. It was a JEWISH church with Gentiles incorporated into it. The Gentiles received the JEWISH Messiah.

That it was still a JEWISH church is proven by the fact that the Bride, the Lamb's Wife has ONLY the names of the twelve tribes of Israel written upon her (Rev. 21:12). Though Gentiles came into her the fact that their names were NOT written upon her but only the names of the twelve tribes of Israel PROVES that the church REMAINED JEWISH.

Your distinction between Israel and the Church is blatantly false!

thinker

Offline Seriousseeker

  • 60 Years In Christ
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 697
  • Manna: 37
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #9 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 12:12:33 »
Edward, I think it is important that the Church be understood as not Jewish or Gentile, but as a "new testament" about the "Bride of Christ".  Both Jews and Gentiles need to come on the same ground today to be saved ---the Jews realizing their religion was put away (actually fulfilled) in Christ;  and then the Gentiles brought in by grace to the God of all creation.

Some Christians confuse the NT with a "new" covenant, but since the Covenant with Abraham and Israel was broken by the Israelites, and God scattered them and gave them their Messiah --Jesus, the Christ, they rejected Him.  They are left today without a sacrifice and Savior if they do not come to Christ.

God promised a New Covenant in the Millennium for Israel (Heb. 8:7-10).  The Lord Jesus will establish Israel again as a nation with blessings as an earthly people (the New Covenant), and they will then acknowledge Him (Zech. 13:6).  We need to see the Church as the Bride and a heavenly people, and Israel today as yet scattered and in need of the same salvation.  The Israelites in the Millennium will be the 144,000 preserved for the Kingdom, not the ones today.

Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14276
  • Manna: 189
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #10 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 12:13:42 »
Why do I say "gentile church?" because that is what it is.  At the 325 ad Council of Nicea (first one) any Jewish practice such as honoring the Sabbath and abstaining certain foods was outlawed.  The Nicean creed was formulated with wording that seems (to Jewish ears) like it was intended to keep Jews away, even the ones who DID believe in Jesus.

How is that a Jewish church?

Yes Paul (aka Rav Sha'ul) did start in the synagogues in the cities he went to. But they kicked him out. The congregations he started had some Jews, some God-fearers and the rest were gentiles who were unfamiliar with Judaism or what we call the "old testament." Paul (rightly so) insisted that they NOT follow Judaism, not because Judaism was WRONG per se, but it was wrong FOR THEM. (as gentiles) As we can see in Acts 21, the Jewish believers who came into the faith by the other apostles kept to Judaic practice including Temple worship.  they were "zealous for the Law." And by his actions in that chapter, Paul testified that he agreed with that arrangement.

By the end of the first century there were several Messianic Synagogues (Jewish churches) established all over the east end of the Mediteranean.

After Nicea, where Messianic Judaism was called a false religion by Eusubius, it died a slow death over the next century. By the mid 400s it was gone.

What was left was the Gentile Church.  But fortunately, in the mid-late 1800s, a few rabbis in Europe came to faith.  Orthodox Rabbi Isaac Lichtenstein in Rumania and Chassidic Rabbi Joseph Rabinowitz in Russia came to faith in Jesus and started Messianic Synagogues. That started the Modern Messinaic Movement. Again for the first time in over 1400 years we have the dual thrust of Jew and Gentile working together.

EdwardGoodie

  • Guest
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #11 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 12:54:27 »
The millennium you folks attempt to represent is skewed.  You believe Zechariah 12:10 is a yet future millennial prophecy.  Yet, it is clearly fulfilled in John 19 (as stated),

You believe Isaiah 11 is also representative of a millennial period.  Yet, Paul, in Romans 15:12 refers to Isaiah 11:10 in reference to the Gentiles being saved in his time frame...

It is the same "in that day" of Isaiah 10:20, 10:27, and 11:11...

Isaiah 10:20:

Isa 10:20  And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Isa 10:21  The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
Isa 10:22  For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return[/b]: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
Isa 10:23  For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.  
 

Paul quotes from this Isaiah text in Romans 9:27:

Romans 9:27 - Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:  

And then in regard to the future prophesied remnant, Paul drops the anti-dispensational bomb of:

Romans 11:5 - Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.  

For the most part, the futurist millennium is representative of the Gospel period.  The fountain of living water is the same fountain from Zechariah 13:1.

...and still no one addresses why the apostles illuminate the hundreds of OT Scriptures (promises to Israel) as being applied to the new covenant body of Christ...

The church is the FULFILLMENT of the promises made to Israel - Jew and Gentile in one body in Christ (the Jewish Messiah).

Do you outright deny that John 19:37 (Calvary) is the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10?

Yes or no?







Offline DaveW

  • Lee's Inner Circle Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14276
  • Manna: 189
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #12 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 13:12:12 »
Quote
Do you outright deny that John 19:37 (Calvary) is the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10?
Jn 19.37 Again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they pierced.

EdwardGoodie

  • Guest
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #13 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 13:33:04 »
Quote
Do you outright deny that John 19:37 (Calvary) is the fulfillment of Zechariah 12:10?
Jn 19.37 Again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they pierced.

thethinker

  • Guest
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #14 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 17:44:52 »
Seriousseeker wrote:
Quote
Edward, I think it is important that the Church be understood as not Jewish or Gentile, but as a "new testament" about the "Bride of Christ".

Yet the Bride of Christ has ONLY the names of the twelve tribes of Israel written upon her (Rev. 21:12). The names of Gentiles are NOT written upon her.

"Salvation is out of the Jews" so that men may worship God "in the spirit" (according to new covenant principles, John 4:21-24).

thinker

thethinker

  • Guest
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #15 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 17:49:51 »
Why do I say "gentile church?" because that is what it is.  At the 325 ad Council of Nicea (first one) any Jewish practice such as honoring the Sabbath and abstaining certain foods was outlawed.  The Nicean creed was formulated with wording that seems (to Jewish ears) like it was intended to keep Jews away, even the ones who DID believe in Jesus.

How is that a Jewish church?

Yes Paul (aka Rav Sha'ul) did start in the synagogues in the cities he went to. But they kicked him out. The congregations he started had some Jews, some God-fearers and the rest were gentiles who were unfamiliar with Judaism or what we call the "old testament." Paul (rightly so) insisted that they NOT follow Judaism, not because Judaism was WRONG per se, but it was wrong FOR THEM. (as gentiles) As we can see in Acts 21, the Jewish believers who came into the faith by the other apostles kept to Judaic practice including Temple worship.  they were "zealous for the Law." And by his actions in that chapter, Paul testified that he agreed with that arrangement.

By the end of the first century there were several Messianic Synagogues (Jewish churches) established all over the east end of the Mediteranean.

After Nicea, where Messianic Judaism was called a false religion by Eusubius, it died a slow death over the next century. By the mid 400s it was gone.

What was left was the Gentile Church.  But fortunately, in the mid-late 1800s, a few rabbis in Europe came to faith.  Orthodox Rabbi Isaac Lichtenstein in Rumania and Chassidic Rabbi Joseph Rabinowitz in Russia came to faith in Jesus and started Messianic Synagogues. That started the Modern Messinaic Movement. Again for the first time in over 1400 years we have the dual thrust of Jew and Gentile working together.

It was NOT a Gentile church. It was a JEWISH church with Gentiles incorporated into it. These are the facts. The "rapture" was promised to Israel (Hoses 12:13 with 1 Corinthians 15:50-55). If you claim the "rapture" for yourself, then you admit that you have been incorporated into Israel.

It doesn't take a degree in rocket science to comprehend these things.

thinker

thethinker

  • Guest
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #16 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 17:53:57 »
DaveW wrote:
Quote
They  looked but did not mourn.

EdwardGoodie replied:
Quote
The remnant who got saved mourned for Him  (Acts 2:36-38)...do you believe that the same "they" who looked upon Him whom they pierced is the same "they" that shall mourn for him.  It seems pretty obvious to me.

Manna for EdwardGoodie!

thinker

raggthyme

  • Guest
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #17 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 18:02:58 »
DaveW wrote:
Quote
They  looked but did not mourn.

EdwardGoodie replied:
Quote
The remnant who got saved mourned for Him  (Acts 2:36-38)...do you believe that the same "they" who looked upon Him whom they pierced is the same "they" that shall mourn for him.  It seems pretty obvious to me.

Manna for EdwardGoodie!

thinker


Agreed!

Offline JohnDB70X7

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 611
  • Manna: 16
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #18 on: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 19:21:34 »
The general misconception is that the Church did not exist prior to Acts 2.

The Church (ekklesia / called out / assembly) began in Abel's day. Check out Hebrews 11 the hall of faith chapter.

Another general misconception is about who and what the Jews are.

The  Jews were called out specifically to bring Truth into the world in two forms (the written form the Bible and the living form the Messiah). There's no replacing them. They can believe and be saved or they can disbelieve and be condemned just like anyone else. But for having been the special tools in the hands of the Lord to usher in his plan and to have been so mistreated by the devil and humanity for having done so, the Jews will always hold a special place in God's heart.

Romans 11:28 (NKJV)
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

I can show how as believers in the Jewish Messiah that we become spirit Jews / spirit Israel (the Church suffers from an identity crisis on this matter). But that still does not make a Gentile born believer a physical Jew or physical Israel. There is no accurate / legitimate replacement theology. We are grafted in to the same tree everyone else who believes is.
« Last Edit: Fri Mar 02, 2012 - 19:34:22 by JohnDB70X7 »

daq

  • Guest
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #19 on: Sat Mar 03, 2012 - 23:17:53 »
The  Jews were called out specifically to bring Truth into the world in two forms (the written form the Bible and the living form the Messiah). There's no replacing them. They can believe and be saved or they can disbelieve and be condemned just like anyone else. But for having been the special tools in the hands of the Lord to usher in his plan and to have been so mistreated by the devil and humanity for having done so, the Jews will always hold a special place in God's heart.

Comment deleted - YHWH is no repsecter of persons and Paul makes it very clear who is a true Jew:

Romans 2:28-29 KJV
28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Therefore anyone who claims to be a CHRISTIAN having been spiritually circumcised in heart, (which is to be born from above) the same one, by default, also claims to be a TRUE JEW.   Comment deleted

Revelation 2:8-9 KJV
8. And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9. I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:7-9 KJV
7. And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8. I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


Comment deleted
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 04, 2012 - 10:16:09 by larry2 »

daq

  • Guest
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #20 on: Sun Mar 04, 2012 - 00:57:03 »
The Scripture makes it clear that Paul was of the Tribe of Benjamin; an Israelite, a Hebrew of Hebrews, circumcised in the flesh the eighth day. Yet these things Paul counted as nothing to become a Jew of the spiritual kind: Circumcised in heart by the High Priest Yeshua who is Son of David and the Lion of Judah. To be IN CHRIST is to be a spiritual Jew of the heart because the flesh profits nothing according to the doctrine of the Master. YHWH is no respecter of the persons of men; YHWH is not a racist playing favorites with the physical seed lines of men, for he created all mankind and loves his creation all the same. Therefore all mankind has been concluded in unbelief and under sin so that YHWH may have mercy upon all, that the promise out of Christ Yeshua faith might be given to them that believe, (Rom.11:32, Gal.3:22).

Romans 11:1 KJV
1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Philippians 3:3-7 KJV
3. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5. Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6. Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Acts 21:37-39 <> Acts 22:1-3 KJV
37. And as Paul was to be led into the castle, he said unto the chief captain, May I speak unto thee? Who said, Canst thou speak Greek?
38. Art not thou that Egyptian, which before these days madest an uproar, and leddest out into the wilderness four thousand men that were murderers?
39. But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.
40. And when he had given him licence, Paul stood on the stairs, and beckoned with the hand unto the people. And when there was made a great silence, he spake unto them in the Hebrew tongue, saying,
1. Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.
2. (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
3. I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.


The thrust of the argument is thus:

If Paul, being a Hebrew of Hebrews, of the stock of Benjamin, circumcised the eighth day, raised under the teachings of Gamaliel, blameless concerning the righteousness of the Law, knowing even that according to the old ways the High Priest may only be of the tribe of Levi though Yeshua was a Jew; if indeed Paul can count all those things as loss and relinquish his pedigree of the tribal lineage of Benjamin to become a Jew in Christ Yeshua who is the New Mediator of the Covenant; Eternal High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek, and verily of the tribe of Judah: Then the Gentiles should have no problem becoming spiritual Jews circumcised in heart.

Paul therefore counts his tribal status of Benjamin as nothing:
Compared to being circumcised a Jew of the heart  ~  IN CHRIST


::priest::  ::The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's th

Offline JohnDB70X7

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 611
  • Manna: 16
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #21 on: Sun Mar 04, 2012 - 09:37:25 »
The  Jews were called out specifically to bring Truth into the world in two forms (the written form the Bible and the living form the Messiah). There's no replacing them. They can believe and be saved or they can disbelieve and be condemned just like anyone else. But for having been the special tools in the hands of the Lord to usher in his plan and to have been so mistreated by the devil and humanity for having done so, the Jews will always hold a special place in God's heart.

Because you see only according to the eyes of the flesh your comments are tantamount to calling YHWH a racist who shows respect to a certain people because of their BLOODLINE. YHWH is no repsecter of persons and Paul makes it very clear who is a true Jew:

Allow me to repeat:

The Apostle Paul wrote:

Romans 11:28 (KJV)
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

All the wild-eyed conclusions and inferences you make of this are your own doing. I am just quoting scripture and stating fact:

The Jewish people are the bloodline of Jesus Christ. The Jewish people wrote the Bible (with extremely few exceptions... even Dr. Luke may have been a Jew).

Don't allow the spirit of antisemitism to agitate your soul, friend.

Quote
Romans 2:28-29 KJV
28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The very nature of this verse is pitting the flesh versus the spirit. Think about that. It is not saying that the Jewish born people are not Jewish. The same Paul who wrote this verse also wrote:

Romans 9:6 (KJV)
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

The difference is the flesh and the spirit. All who believe in the Jewish Messiah (Jesus Christ) ARE spirit Jews and of the spirit house of Israel. This does not make gentile born believers physically Jewish... any more than being born physically Jewish makes one a spirit Jew.

Quote
Revelation 2:8-9 KJV
8. And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9. I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:7-9 KJV
7. And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8. I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

The synagogue of satan and those who claim to be (spirit) Jews and are not (they are just physical Jews only) is in keeping with John 8:44...

But this still does not erase Roman 11:28. That the physical Jews are (of the people of this world) the chosen / elect (which is for this world but not a path of salvation obviously). The spirit Jews (all who believe in Jesus regardless of who we were born as see Galatians 3:28-29) are the chosen / elect from above (heaven) and we are the ambassadors of heaven and the New Jerusalem is our "mother"

Galatians 4:22-26 (NASB95)
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

You are very close to this point already, Daq.

Offline JohnDB70X7

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 611
  • Manna: 16
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #22 on: Sun Mar 04, 2012 - 09:42:46 »
As I said, you are very close to what the conclusion of this line of theology and where it takes you.

The goal of all is to become a spirit Jew of the true circumcision (Philippians 3:3) as opposed to merely the physical. BUT... this does not change the fact that the physical Jews are elect and chosen (for this life). This will not save them in eternity. They need the savior as much as anyone does. But we do not replace them in this world... that would be a demotion rather than a promotion. Our Kingdom is not of this world theirs is of this world.

Shouldn't we be encouraging them to be grafted back in to the Olive Tree (Spirit Israel by another name)? Rather than trying to replace them down here?

The Scripture makes it clear that Paul was of the Tribe of Benjamin; an Israelite, a Hebrew of Hebrews, circumcised in the flesh the eighth day. Yet these things Paul counted as nothing to become a Jew of the spiritual kind: Circumcised in heart by the High Priest Yeshua who is Son of David and the Lion of Judah. To be IN CHRIST is to be a spiritual Jew of the heart because the flesh profits nothing according to the doctrine of the Master. YHWH is no respecter of the persons of men; YHWH is not a racist playing favorites with the physical seed lines of men, for he created all mankind and loves his creation all the same. Therefore all mankind has been concluded in unbelief and under sin so that YHWH may have mercy upon all, that the promise out of Christ Yeshua faith might be given to them that believe, (Rom.11:32, Gal.3:22).

Romans 11:1 KJV
1. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Philippians 3:3-7 KJV
3. For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5. Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6. Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Acts 21:37-39 <> Acts 22:1-3 KJV
37. And as Paul was to be led into the castle, he said unto the chief captain, May I speak unto thee? Who said, Canst thou speak Greek?
38. Art not thou that Egyptian, which before these days madest an uproar, and leddest out into the wilderness four thousand men that were murderers?
39. But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.
40. And when he had given him licence, Paul stood on the stairs, and beckoned with the hand unto the people. And when there was made a great silence, he spake unto them in the Hebrew tongue, saying,
1. Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.
2. (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
3. I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.


The thrust of the argument is thus:

If Paul, being a Hebrew of Hebrews, of the stock of Benjamin, circumcised the eighth day, raised under the teachings of Gamaliel, blameless concerning the righteousness of the Law, knowing even that according to the old ways the High Priest may only be of the tribe of Levi though Yeshua was a Jew; if indeed Paul can count all those things as loss and relinquish his pedigree of the tribal lineage of Benjamin to become a Jew in Christ Yeshua who is the New Mediator of the Covenant; Eternal High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek, and verily of the tribe of Judah: Then the Gentiles should have no problem becoming spiritual Jews circumcised in heart.

Paul therefore counts his tribal status of Benjamin as nothing:
Compared to being circumcised a Jew of the heart  ~  IN CHRIST


::priest::  ::The B-I-B-L-E, yes that's th

daq

  • Guest
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #23 on: Sun Mar 04, 2012 - 21:35:59 »
Don't allow the spirit of antisemitism to agitate your soul, friend.

I was a physical Jew and who are you? still a Gentile? Like Nicodemus, I gave up that flesh seed line and outward show of genealogy to become a Jew both of the heart and in Spirit. You not only accuse me of having an unclean spirit of anti-Semitism but also of rejecting my own people and the Word of YHWH my 'Elohiym. And all of this because I told you the Truth and it does not fit your false theological "end of the age" position. Then you go start a poll the "American Way" because surely according to your mindset: "If the herd agrees then you are right and justified in your thinking. Go ahead and follow the herd brown sow: right on down the mountain side and into the lake.

Offline JohnDB70X7

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 611
  • Manna: 16
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #24 on: Sun Mar 04, 2012 - 21:52:18 »
Don't allow the spirit of antisemitism to agitate your soul, friend.

I was a physical Jew and who are you? still a Gentile? Like Nicodemus, I gave up that flesh seed line and outward show of genealogy to become a Jew both of the heart and in Spirit. You not only accuse me of having an unclean spirit of anti-Semitism but also of rejecting my own people and the Word of YHWH my 'Elohiym. And all of this because I told you the Truth and it does not fit your false theological "end of the age" position. Then you go start a poll the "American Way" because surely according to your mindset: "If the herd agrees then you are right and justified in your thinking. Go ahead and follow the herd brown sow: right on down the mountain side and into the lake.

If you truly are born Jewish then you know what an insult it is to be called a female pig as you just called me.

As anyone who actually reads my post objectively (and not through the eyes of defensiveness or hatred) you will see that I stated that Preterism leads to replacement theology which is antisemitic.

If you were truly born Jewish and have come to salvation in the Jewish Messiah then I rejoice that (you) a natural branch are in the Olive Tree!

I was born a Gentile but am circumcised in heart and am a spirit Jew (true Jew as you put it)...

But surely you see that YHVH is not through with the Jewish born people... that his plan is first for the Jew then for the Gentile... in the wake of the rejection of the Jewish people YHVH went on with his plan for the Gentiles to return to the Jewish born people at the end of the age once the times of the Gentiles is completed. Surely you see this.

And for the sake of your being a natural branch in the Olive tree I will forgo responding to or reporting your insults and accusations.

Don't allow a doctrine like Preterism so fill you with rage that you do things like the above or worse.

daq

  • Guest
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #25 on: Sun Mar 04, 2012 - 23:59:44 »
Don't allow the spirit of antisemitism to agitate your soul, friend.

I was a physical Jew and who are you? still a Gentile? Like Nicodemus, I gave up that flesh seed line and outward show of genealogy to become a Jew both of the heart and in Spirit. You not only accuse me of having an unclean spirit of anti-Semitism but also of rejecting my own people and the Word of YHWH my 'Elohiym. And all of this because I told you the Truth and it does not fit your false theological "end of the age" position. Then you go start a poll the "American Way" because surely according to your mindset: "If the herd agrees then you are right and justified in your thinking. Go ahead and follow the herd brown sow: right on down the mountain side and into the lake.

If you truly are born Jewish then you know what an insult it is to be called a female pig as you just called me.

As anyone who actually reads my post objectively (and not through the eyes of defensiveness or hatred) you will see that I stated that Preterism leads to replacement theology which is antisemitic.

If you were truly born Jewish and have come to salvation in the Jewish Messiah then I rejoice that (you) a natural branch are in the Olive Tree!

I was born a Gentile but am circumcised in heart and am a spirit Jew (true Jew as you put it)...

But surely you see that YHVH is not through with the Jewish born people... that his plan is first for the Jew then for the Gentile... in the wake of the rejection of the Jewish people YHVH went on with his plan for the Gentiles to return to the Jewish born people at the end of the age once the times of the Gentiles is completed. Surely you see this.

And for the sake of your being a natural branch in the Olive tree I will forgo responding to or reporting your insults and accusations.

Don't allow a doctrine like Preterism so fill you with rage that you do things like the above or worse.

You were warned before the words left your fingertips in Post #19 above. And that was because your motives and the tactics which you employ, toward your own end, may be seen from a mile away. If only you had taken some time to read what others have to say you might have understood that Preterism is not anything near what I adhere to.

::shrug::

Mark 3:28-30 KJV
28. Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29. But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
30. Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.


Why should I be interested in discussing, debating, or even arguing the Scripture with anyone who begins his conversation by suggesting that I may have an unclean spirit? Not interested. And those who play the race card to enforce their theology are no different than the political hacks involved in smear tactics for personal gain.

EdwardGoodie

  • Guest
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #26 on: Mon Mar 05, 2012 - 13:24:47 »

As anyone who actually reads my post objectively (and not through the eyes of defensiveness or hatred) you will see that I stated that Preterism leads to replacement theology which is antisemitic.


Actually, it is dispensationalism who are the anti-Semites.  Their theology demands for a full return to the Middle East (their alleged land) for the purposes that their precious church can be raptured out of the way.  But raptured out of the way for what reason???  The reason is to avoid the slaughter and devastation that is allegedly going to come to the very Jews they say they love.  Two-thirds of these Jews (according to their own theology) are going to be slaughtered.

Yet these same dispensationalists promote (time, finances) the return to the alleged land for this outcome.  They are actively trying to hasten the time for their alleged rapture.

This is why the OP has correctly stated:

True Replacement Theology is one in which Jesus Christ is replaced with a carnal kingdom (John18:36, Luke 17:20-21, Hebrews 12:18) in the Old Covenant format, in the Middle East, instead of IN JESUS CHRIST, the new covenant (John 4:21-24).

A future dispensational kingdom of Israel with its old covenant system is nothing but ANTICHRIST in nature.

Dispensationalists are antisemitic and antichrist in theology in regard to their understanding of old covenant Israel.  This, in itself, should be reason enough to dismiss it various tenets...

Offline n2thelight

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 764
  • Manna: 34
    • View Profile
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #27 on: Mon Mar 05, 2012 - 23:30:55 »
Now you know that IF replacement theology was correct, that the gentile church replaced the Jews, then God is a liar.

It might also follow (since the church has not had that great a record either) that maybe mohammed was correct in saying that Islam replaced christianity.

There was no such thing as a "Gentile" church. It was a JEWISH church with Gentiles incorporated into it. The Gentiles received the JEWISH Messiah.

That it was still a JEWISH church is proven by the fact that the Bride, the Lamb's Wife has ONLY the names of the twelve tribes of Israel written upon her (Rev. 21:12). Though Gentiles came into her the fact that their names were NOT written upon her but only the names of the twelve tribes of Israel PROVES that the church REMAINED JEWISH.

Your distinction between Israel and the Church is blatantly false!

thinker

All 12 tribes were and are not Jewish

The 12 Tribes of Israel became the nation of Israel that later split in two: Joseph was the leader of the Northern Kingdom with its 10 tribes, capital Samaria, and Judah was the leader of the Southern Kingdom, capital Jerusalem.

The Lost Ten Tribes" are not Jewish.

thethinker

  • Guest
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #28 on: Tue Mar 06, 2012 - 10:58:35 »
Now you know that IF replacement theology was correct, that the gentile church replaced the Jews, then God is a liar.

It might also follow (since the church has not had that great a record either) that maybe mohammed was correct in saying that Islam replaced christianity.

There was no such thing as a "Gentile" church. It was a JEWISH church with Gentiles incorporated into it. The Gentiles received the JEWISH Messiah.

That it was still a JEWISH church is proven by the fact that the Bride, the Lamb's Wife has ONLY the names of the twelve tribes of Israel written upon her (Rev. 21:12). Though Gentiles came into her the fact that their names were NOT written upon her but only the names of the twelve tribes of Israel PROVES that the church REMAINED JEWISH.

Your distinction between Israel and the Church is blatantly false!

thinker

All 12 tribes were and are not Jewish

The 12 Tribes of Israel became the nation of Israel that later split in two: Joseph was the leader of the Northern Kingdom with its 10 tribes, capital Samaria, and Judah was the leader of the Southern Kingdom, capital Jerusalem.

The Lost Ten Tribes" are not Jewish.


Jew: A name first applied to the people living in Judah (when the Isrealites were divided into the two kingdoms of Israel and Judah); After the Babylonian Captivity, all the descendants of Abraham were called "Jews." The term is used in the NEW TESTAMENT for all Israelites as opposed to the "Gentiles," or those of non-Jewish blood.

Nelson's Bible Dictionary, page 572

Therefore, the Wife the Lamb's Wife was JEWISH for ONLY the names of the twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel are written upon her (Rev. 21:12). Gentiles believers have come into the JEWISH Bride. There is no such thing as a Gentile Bride. The Bride of Christ is JEWISH having Gentiles incorporated into Her.

thinker

Offline JohnDB70X7

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 611
  • Manna: 16
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #29 on: Wed Mar 07, 2012 - 11:46:59 »
Okay, I'll state it again for the slower ones in the class...

Observe the below highlighted verses in context.

The Preterist is at a loss to explain how the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 CE is different than the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 586 BCE except to go into a dull interpolation as to the latter being different because the Lord turned away from Israel and in their place... fill in the blank (replacement theology by any other name)

Matthew 24 (KJV)
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


thethinker

  • Guest
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #30 on: Wed Mar 07, 2012 - 14:39:29 »
Okay, I'll state it again for the slower ones in the class...

Observe the below highlighted verses in context.

The Preterist is at a loss to explain how the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 CE is different than the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 586 BCE except to go into a dull interpolation as to the latter being different because the Lord turned away from Israel and in their place... fill in the blank (replacement theology by any other name)

Matthew 24 (KJV)
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



What's your point? Are you saying that the destruction of the temple in ad70 was not the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy because the foundational stones still remain? Every stone of the temple proper was thrown down. The foundation stones remain but Jesus was NOT talking about those stones. According to Mark he was speaking only of the stones that adorned the temple proper.

What is your definition of the term "great tribulation?" There was none like it before or after it because of the severity of God's judgment. God disowned the Jews forever AFTER the elect remnant of Jesus' generation was saved. Paul said that the remnant of his day "has obtained" the promise. After that God was done with them.

Are you calculating things in terms of numbers or what?

thinker

Offline JohnDB70X7

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 611
  • Manna: 16
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #31 on: Wed Mar 07, 2012 - 20:33:23 »

What's your point?

That the destruction of 70 CE cannot be the Great Tribulation.

Matthew 24:21 (KJV)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The destruction of the city and temple occurred previously in 586 BCE.

 


Lehigh

  • Guest
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #32 on: Wed Mar 07, 2012 - 20:44:51 »

What's your point?

That the destruction of 70 CE cannot be the Great Tribulation.

Matthew 24:21 (KJV)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The destruction of the city and temple occurred previously in 586 BCE.


Well, it was.  And all of the book of Revelation was fulfilled by 70AD too. 

Reality is, we live by faith, not prophecy.


Offline JohnDB70X7

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 611
  • Manna: 16
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #33 on: Wed Mar 07, 2012 - 20:49:31 »

What's your point?

That the destruction of 70 CE cannot be the Great Tribulation.

Matthew 24:21 (KJV)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The destruction of the city and temple occurred previously in 586 BCE.


Well, it was.  And all of the book of Revelation was fulfilled by 70AD too. 

Reality is, we live by faith, not prophecy.


Apparently you believe we live by faith in your say so, Lehigh. Because all you added to the conversation was "Yeah huh!"

I guess you are wanting a "Nuh uh," response from me.

I gave up that form of arguing 45+ years ago.

"Uh huh" You
"Nuh uh"  Me
"Uh huh" You
"Nuh uh"  Me
"Uh huh" You
"Nuh uh"  Me
"Uh huh" You
"Nuh uh"  Me
"Uh huh" You
"Nuh uh"  Me
"Uh huh" You
"Nuh uh"  Me
"Uh huh" You
"Nuh uh"  Me
"Uh huh" You
"Nuh uh"  Me
"Uh huh" You
"Nuh uh"  Me



Lehigh

  • Guest
Re: True Replacement Theology
« Reply #34 on: Wed Mar 07, 2012 - 21:02:15 »


 Doesn't look like you gave it up though.   ::giggle::

 

     
anything