Author Topic: We are caught away individually in successions.  (Read 5051 times)

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thethinker

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We are caught away individually in successions.
« on: Thu Feb 16, 2012 - 13:17:05 »
Literal translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

"For the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

afterwards we who are living, who are remaining over, shall be caught away to join them (NEB) through the clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be."


TO ALL,

There are many who erroneously who think that Paul taught that the the living saints in this passage will be caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised. This cannot be possible because he said that the living saints are caught away "afterwards."

So why do so many christians think that the living saints are caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised? There are two reasons:

1. Because most translations wrongly render the Greek hama in English as "together with" giving the impression that the living saints are caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised.

2. Because they wrongly think that the Greek hama means "at the same time."

It is true that hama may mean "at the same time" but only when used as a particle. When it is used as an adverb it denotes simple association by joining without any reference to simultaneousness (see Strong's# 260).

Paul used hama to translate the Hebrew yachad which means "to become united." Yachad has no reference to simultaneousness at all.

Psalm 14:3:

"They have all turned aside,
They have together [yachad] become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one."


Romans 3:12:

"They have all turned aside;
They have together [hama] become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one."


David was speaking about the fool of his day who had become corrupt because he said "there is no God." Paul applied it to the Jew and the Gentile in his time who had become unprofitable. The sinner of Paul's time did not become decadent simultaneously with the fool in David's day. Though they had become decadent "together" it was not at the same time. They became decadent "together" in the sense that they became united or joined to each other in their decadence.

This is what Paul meant in 1 Thessalonians 4. He meant that we each will be caught away individually to join the resurrected saints in heaven but each in our own succession of time. When I die I will be caught away to join the resurrected saints. The next thing I know I will be in my body from heaven which the resurrected saints now have (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5). My earthly body will have no part in my being caught away. When Raggthyme's time comes she will be caught away to join the resurrected saints and the next thing she will know is that she will be in her body from heaven. The same is true of each of us individually.

We will each be caught away individually in our own succession of time and not at the same time. Our earthly bodies will NOT have a part in it at all. There will be no mass disappearances of people's bodies. Each of us will be caught away to join the resurrected saints in our body from heaven. Our loved ones will take care of the body we leave behind.

thinker

« Last Edit: Thu Feb 16, 2012 - 13:26:54 by thethinker »

daq

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #1 on: Thu Feb 16, 2012 - 16:25:26 »
HALLELUYAH!! FINALLY!!!  ::smile::  ::nodding::

Exodus 34:5-6 KJV
5. And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.
6. And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,




::band::      ::gift::      ::woo::


In addition GSN#260 "hama" is used in conjunction with GSN#4862 "sun" ~

1 Thessalonians 4:17 LIT
17.
   |4412| firstly, [from v.16 in this translation]
   |1899| then
   |2249| we
   |3588| the
   |2198| living
   |4035| remaining
   |0260| together
   |4862| with
   |0846| them
   |0726| will be caught up
   |1722| in
   |3507| clouds
   |1519| to
   |0529| a meeting
   |3588| of the
   |2962| Lord
   |1519| in
   |0109| {the} air,
   |2532| and
   |3779| so [houto - in this way]
   |3842| always
   |4862| with
   |2962| {the} Lord
   |2071| we will be.


Original Strong's Ref. #260
Romanized  hama
Pronounced ham'-ah
a primary particle; properly, at the "same" time, but freely used as a preposition or adverb denoting close association:
KJV--also, and, together, with(-al).

Original Strong's Ref. #4862
Romanized  sun
Pronounced soon
a primary preposition denoting union; with or together (but much closer than GSN3326 or GSN3844), i.e. by association, companionship, process, resemblance, possession, instrumentality, addition, etc.:
KJV--beside, with. In composition it has similar applications, including completeness.

Original Strong's Ref. #2071
Romanized  esomai
Pronounced es'-om-ahee
future of GSN1510; will be:
KJV--shall (should) be (have), (shall) come (to pass), X may have, X fall, what would follow, X live long, X sojourn.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 TUA
17. Epeitahemeis hoi zontes hoi perileipomenoi hama sun autois harpagesometha en nefelais eis apantesin tou Kuriou eisaera.  Kai houtos pantote sun Kurio esometha.
17. "Thereafter we the living; the remaining all about, together beside-alongside them shall be caught up in the clouds into a meeting of the Master in the air. And in this way, ever beside-alongside the Master shall we be-(what would follow)-(come to pass)-sojourn."

Each in his or her own appointed times ...
And none shall be alone in his appointed times ...

Offline n2thelight

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #2 on: Thu Feb 16, 2012 - 21:35:32 »
Quote
We will each be caught away individually in our own succession of time and not at the same time. Our earthly bodies will NOT have a part in it at all. There will be no mass disappearances of people's bodies. Each of us will be caught away to join the resurrected saints in our body from heaven. Our loved ones will take care of the body we leave behind.

thinker

You are absolutely correct,however this only applies if we die before the 7th trump......

When Christ returns,we will be gathered at the same time,we will meet up with those who have already died,they are the ones Christ brings back with Him......

1 Thessalonians 4:14  
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


That's why those alive at Christ return cannot precede those who have died,for the simple fact that they are already with Him............

Paul said we would not all sleep(die)but we shall all be changed........

At the 7th trump we meet up with those in Christ who have already died..........


This is the number one proof,that Christ has not returned yet,because we have yet to be changed like those who have already died..........


« Last Edit: Thu Feb 16, 2012 - 21:50:25 by n2thelight »

thethinker

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #3 on: Fri Feb 17, 2012 - 13:23:38 »
n2thelight wrote:
Quote
You are absolutely correct,however this only applies if we die before the 7th trump......

Paul said that the rapture was to begin in the last trumpet and not before. The seventh trumpet of the Revelation was the last trumpet. It sounded in ad70 when Jesus returned. Paul told the Thessalonians that they would be ALIVE when He returned (1 Thess. 5:23).

Since Christ's return in ad70 the souls of christians are "caught up" instead of descending to sheol to await resurrection.

thinker

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #4 on: Sun Feb 19, 2012 - 09:14:38 »
n2thelight wrote:
Quote
You are absolutely correct,however this only applies if we die before the 7th trump......

Paul said that the rapture was to begin in the last trumpet and not before. The seventh trumpet of the Revelation was the last trumpet. It sounded in ad70 when Jesus returned. Paul told the Thessalonians that they would be ALIVE when He returned (1 Thess. 5:23).

Since Christ's return in ad70 the souls of christians are "caught up" instead of descending to sheol to await resurrection.

thinker

the verse you quote 5:23 says that he hoped (prayed) they'd be blameless when he came, since believers CAN fall away, this is what he is referring to..... Jesus never showed in 70ad you have no biblical basis for this claim..... Jerusalem was destroyed in 70ad. So  when Christ DOES return, Paul is hoping the kept themselfs unblemished - rememeber puals not going to be at their side to see their walk so he prays that when Christ comes they rise to glory instead of shame.

We also know that the next time AFTER Christ assended to heaven that YOUD SEE HIM At the RIGHT Hand if the father IN HEAVEN (Matt 26:64)... This happens in Rev 6:16 at the start of rapture, this is when every eye sees him even the dead! (Rev1:7)

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #4 on: Sun Feb 19, 2012 - 09:14:38 »



Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #5 on: Sun Feb 19, 2012 - 09:52:34 »
Quote
We will each be caught away individually in our own succession of time and not at the same time. Our earthly bodies will NOT have a part in it at all. There will be no mass disappearances of people's bodies. Each of us will be caught away to join the resurrected saints in our body from heaven. Our loved ones will take care of the body we leave behind.

thinker

You are absolutely correct,however this only applies if we die before the 7th trump......

When Christ returns,we will be gathered at the same time,we will meet up with those who have already died,they are the ones Christ brings back with Him......

1 Thessalonians 4:14  
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


That's why those alive at Christ return cannot precede those who have died,for the simple fact that they are already with Him............

Paul said we would not all sleep(die)but we shall all be changed........

At the 7th trump we meet up with those in Christ who have already died..........


This is the number one proof,that Christ has not returned yet,because we have yet to be changed like those who have already died..........




1. He will come on the clouds with his mighty angels - no saints here!(acts 1:11)
2. All eyes will see him coming (rev1:7)
3. And the DEAD shall arise when? FIRST!!!! So this means there's a second also
4. And those still alive will be caught up TOGETHER in those clouds to meet the LORD.
 5. There's no biblical scripture to back your statement that CHRIST RETURNED IN 70ad
YOU DO NOT HAVE Srcipture to back up you statement that the dead are in heaven now.....

1. The dead rise 1st and we are CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with THEM.


thethinker

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #6 on: Sun Feb 19, 2012 - 10:07:58 »
Knowledgebomb wrote:
Quote
The dead rise 1st and we are CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with THEM.

Did you bother at all to read the op? The  Greek word "hama" does NOT mean that we are caught up together with the dead after they are resurrected.  As an adverb it means "to join [in succession]." The NEB correctly translates it "to join."

The old testament saints were resurrected in ad70 and are in heaven. We who are living will be caught up to join them individually when we die. We will be caught up to join them in our body which is from heaven (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5).

PLEASE read the op before you respond.

thinker

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #7 on: Sun Feb 19, 2012 - 10:16:09 »
Knowledgebomb wrote:
Quote
The dead rise 1st and we are CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with THEM.

Did you bother at all to read the op? The  Greek word "hama" does NOT mean that we are caught up together with the dead after they are resurrected.  As an adverb it means "to join [in succession]." The NEB correctly translates it "to join."

The old testament saints were resurrected in ad70 and are in heaven. We who are living will be caught up to join them individually when we die. We will be caught up to join them in our body which is from heaven (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5).

PLEASE read the op before you respond.

thinker

Again you have NO BIBLICAL backup for your teaching that Christ returned in 70ad

and if you read, you'll see I did address this before..... And that was you have no scripture to back 70ad


thethinker

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #8 on: Sun Feb 19, 2012 - 10:25:20 »
Knowledgebomb wrote:
Quote
The dead rise 1st and we are CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with THEM.

Did you bother at all to read the op? The  Greek word "hama" does NOT mean that we are caught up together with the dead after they are resurrected.  As an adverb it means "to join [in succession]." The NEB correctly translates it "to join."

The old testament saints were resurrected in ad70 and are in heaven. We who are living will be caught up to join them individually when we die. We will be caught up to join them in our body which is from heaven (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5).

PLEASE read the op before you respond.

thinker

Again you have NO BIBLICAL backup for your teaching that Christ returned in 70ad

and if you read, you'll see I did address this before..... And that was you have no scripture to back 70ad



Where have you been? Christ told Caiaphas the high Priest that he would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds. Paul told the Thessalonians that they would get relief from their persecutions "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven" (2 Thess. 2:3-8).

Paul told them that their bodies, souls and spirits would be PRESERVED until the Lord's coming (1 Thess. 5:23). This means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE when He came.

thinker

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #9 on: Sun Feb 19, 2012 - 11:02:32 »
NEB bible huh..... Thinker Your trustworthy bible says God fell from heaven and will go to hell!
In fact I bet most if not ALL the bibles used by Christians do....

There are 2 of these statements depending on your bible....

First for Most of the bibles on this forum - watch the devil work!

Rev 22:16 and this tells us that Jesus is the bright and MORNING STAR.
2 Peter 1:19 tells us we have the assurance of the DAYSTAR arising in our hearts.

Jesus is the morning star and the daystar (holy spirit) arises in our hearts.

So NOW turn to Isaiah 14:12 and you will see in YOUR BIBLES that either it's the MORNING STAR or the DAYSTAR that fell from heaven and is going to hell!

Now if you got the KING JAMES VERSION it will CORRECTLY say:

O LUCIFER - your bible change's the word to "HE" so that it could be anyone!
SON OF THE MORING - your bible's changed it from Satan to Jesus or HS

now when Satan comes HE will grab your bibles and say SEE,
YOUR BIBLE EVEN SAY JESUS FELL NOT ME!!!!

And your gonna tell me your version has the words right on "TO JOIN"

see the devil musta changed your bible there too...


Now on the caught up (1thess 4:17) the Greek word for "caught" up is HARPAZO (726 strongs)
which means to "catch pluck pull take by force"




Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #10 on: Sun Feb 19, 2012 - 11:12:03 »


Where have you been? Christ told Caiaphas the high Priest that he would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds. Paul told the Thessalonians that they would get relief from their persecutions "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven" (2 Thess. 2:3-8).

Paul told them that their bodies, souls and spirits would be PRESERVED until the Lord's coming (1 Thess. 5:23). This means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE when He came.

thinker

1. Ofcourse he will see Christ return - again REV 1:7 says ALL EYES EVEN THE DEAD WILL SEE CHRIST COMING ON CLOUDS
A. So now that THAT is setteled
Again as I stated before:
2. Pauls hopes (PRAYS) that the believer will be found (Dan12:2 by Christ waking to life while the others who ALSO see his return wake to shame)

Since believers CAN fall away Paul prays that this won't happen to them since he won't be at their side 24/7.

daq

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #11 on: Sun Feb 19, 2012 - 11:26:11 »
Knowledgebomb wrote:
Quote
The dead rise 1st and we are CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with THEM.

Did you bother at all to read the op? The  Greek word "hama" does NOT mean that we are caught up together with the dead after they are resurrected.  As an adverb it means "to join [in succession]." The NEB correctly translates it "to join."

The old testament saints were resurrected in ad70 and are in heaven. We who are living will be caught up to join them individually when we die. We will be caught up to join them in our body which is from heaven (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5).

PLEASE read the op before you respond.

thinker

While the 70AD date may be erroneous because it was rather 30AD, at the Pentecost concerning what is written in Acts 2, still the point made in the OP and here agian cannot be overstated! It proves that the Gospel is individual and to each in his appointed times. Thus when each believer comes to his own "seventh trumpet" a son is born into the kingdom, (those who overcome in their hour of trial).

THEN has that son born into the Kingdom fully JOINED the Family ~

Hebrews 12:18-24 KJV
18. For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19. And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20. (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21. And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)
22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


And when one fully understands this he will understand why this particular Epistle was addressed to the HEBREWS in the first place: for he will have been fully graffed into the Olive Tree of YHWH.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #12 on: Sun Feb 19, 2012 - 11:53:53 »
Knowledgebomb wrote:
Quote
The dead rise 1st and we are CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with THEM.

Did you bother at all to read the op? The  Greek word "hama" does NOT mean that we are caught up together with the dead after they are resurrected.  As an adverb it means "to join [in succession]." The NEB correctly translates it "to join."

The old testament saints were resurrected in ad70 and are in heaven. We who are living will be caught up to join them individually when we die. We will be caught up to join them in our body which is from heaven (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5).

PLEASE read the op before you respond.

thinker

While the 70AD date may be erroneous because it was rather 30AD, at the Pentecost concerning what is written in Acts 2, still the point made in the OP and here agian cannot be overstated! It proves that the Gospel is individual and to each in his appointed times. Thus when each believer comes to his own "seventh trumpet" a son is born into the kingdom, (those who overcome in their hour of trial).

THEN has that son born into the Kingdom fully JOINED the Family ~

Hebrews 12:18-24 KJV
18. For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19. And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20. (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21. And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)
22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


And when one fully understands this he will understand why this particular Epistle was addressed to the HEBREWS in the first place: for he will have been fully graffed into the Olive Tree of YHWH.

and this from someone who thought they had a chance at being one of two witnesses of Revelation!!! Which come from heaven so......


daq

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #13 on: Sun Feb 19, 2012 - 13:05:07 »
and this from someone who thought they had a chance at being one of two witnesses of Revelation!!! Which come from heaven so......


What kind of person would intentionally pervert the testimony of another believer just to discredit what he has stated according to the Scripture in this thread?

Long after the beginning of my walk with Christ there was a time when I likened myself to a "minor prophet" and assumed of myself that if I continued to "study to show myself approved" I might even be found worthy to become one of "two witnesses" doing great things for YHWH, in the name of Yeshua, in these last days. And like so many others, so full of pride, I thought I knew more than anyone else and was superior in all things....... End DAQ End


DAQ..... You thought YOU might study and be one of the two witnesses???? Say it isn't so.. I think this says all I need to about you and your beliefs coming and saying I have no scriptural backing ever again....   


Quoted from my own testimony:
Long after the beginning of my walk with Christ there was a time when I likened myself to a "minor prophet" and assumed of myself that if I continued to "study to show myself approved" I might even be found worthy to become one of "two witnesses" doing great things for YHWH, in the name of Yeshua, in these last days. And like so many others, so full of pride, I thought I knew more than anyone else and was superior in all things unto the works and the wonderful knowledge of Christ. Over time, in my great swelling pride, I became entangled in the tail of a dragon and was cast down to earth without even knowing it. And in my arrogance and ignorance, like a star having fallen from heaven, I took the key that only I had, (each of us has his own key) and opened I up the mouth of a well. And the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of a great iron furnace, even darkened with the locusts of Amalek, even the crowned ones of Edom, Moab, and the prominent sons of Ammon, (every crown about the weight of a talent).

Every man has his appointment and none shall be alone in his appointed times. Yet each mow`ed-appointment is separate because we are the Tabernacle of the Congregation, the tent of the place of meeting, the 'ohel mow`ed. Each of us is like an individual sanctuary, a tabernacle, a sukkah, residing in the midst of our impurities in the Great Congregation of YHWH. No man knows the day or the hour of his meeting in the air with Yeshua, but we all who believe will have that meeting in the air; even the clouds of heaven, even the cloud of incense which ascends with the prayers of the saints. And he that overcomes shall not be hurt out from the Second Death, and he that endures unto the end shall be saved, but he that seeks to save his soul shall loose it, "Behold, thou shalt see in that day, when thou shalt go into an inner chamber to hide thyself".
http://www.sheshbazzardaq.com/testimony.html



YHWH has plucked me from the fire, even from the pride of the stout heart of man, and that is why I can freely admit that there was indeed a time when I did fancy myself, in my vain imagination, as some sort of a mighty one. Sorry you cannot handle the truth.

1 John 3:13-15 KJV
13. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Offline n2thelight

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #14 on: Mon Feb 20, 2012 - 19:23:55 »
n2thelight wrote:
Quote
You are absolutely correct,however this only applies if we die before the 7th trump......

Paul said that the rapture was to begin in the last trumpet and not before. The seventh trumpet of the Revelation was the last trumpet. It sounded in ad70 when Jesus returned. Paul told the Thessalonians that they would be ALIVE when He returned (1 Thess. 5:23).

Since Christ's return in ad70 the souls of christians are "caught up" instead of descending to sheol to await resurrection.

thinker

Still think you are missing my point.....For this response I don't care where they get caught up to........The point Im making is that it happens at death,we are changed...This is before the 7th trump.....Now at the 7th trump we are all changed at the same time,to meet up with those who have already died....

There are not multiple 7th trumps....To put it as simply as possible,as long as we are in flesh bodies,Christ has not returned.......

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #15 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 13:08:21 »
Then why wasn't Christ risen to heaven that very day?

Beside when the thief next to Jesus said rememeber me when you come into your kingdom, and Christ said I tell you today you will be with me in Paradise.

Yet Christ didn't mean the day the thief died he would be in heaven.
He only ment that at that very moment you can be assured of a later rising

after all Christ wasn't in heaven that very day so this man couldn't be with Jesus in heaven and no one else is either.... It's something how you give verses to try an make a point yet you leave out verses that say thus belief is false.....

Dan 12:1 tells us about those found in the book of life "And at that time" meaning at a certain defined event during the tribulation. With v.2 then telling that at "this time" some will AWAKEN to life and some to shame, this is the rapture of Rev 1:7 when all eyes even the dead see him and it's at ONE event........ All dead or alive saved or not will see this event and this is when some awaken to life and some to shame.....


Offline n2thelight

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #16 on: Tue Feb 21, 2012 - 23:26:32 »
Then why wasn't Christ risen to heaven that very day?

Beside when the thief next to Jesus said rememeber me when you come into your kingdom, and Christ said I tell you today you will be with me in Paradise.

Yet Christ didn't mean the day the thief died he would be in heaven.
He only ment that at that very moment you can be assured of a later rising

after all Christ wasn't in heaven that very day so this man couldn't be with Jesus in heaven and no one else is either.... It's something how you give verses to try an make a point yet you leave out verses that say thus belief is false.....

Dan 12:1 tells us about those found in the book of life "And at that time" meaning at a certain defined event during the tribulation. With v.2 then telling that at "this time" some will AWAKEN to life and some to shame, this is the rapture of Rev 1:7 when all eyes even the dead see him and it's at ONE event........ All dead or alive saved or not will see this event and this is when some awaken to life and some to shame.....



Matthew 17:3 "And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him."

So where did Moses and Elias come from?

Where is Christ now?


Luke 16:22 "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom the rich man also died, and was buried;"

Lazarus was carried into heaven by the angels of God, while the rich man's body was buried in the ground and his soul went to Hades, the holding place before being destroyed by hell fire.

Luke 16:23 "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

This is a parable about two men that actually lived, and when both died, the rich man could see Lazarus in heaven with Abraham. He could look across that great gulf that stood between them, but could not go there. Our Heavenly Father is the Father of the living and not the dead. Thus to be absent from this physical body of the flesh is to be present with the Lord. The soul does not go to the grave as the flesh does, but goes immediate to heaven. Those that did not overcome cannot be with those that overcame in this earth age, for they are separated. All souls can actually see the throne of God from where they are. Those that are on the rich man's side are being held for that great judgment day.


Offline Debbie_55

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #17 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 17:15:10 »
We know Jesus sits at the right hand of God, Mark 16:19, (some verses say stands at the right hand) and the reason for this is that Jesus is our mediator, John 14:6, between man and God as man cannot look upon the face of God and live, Exodus 33:20, as God can not look upon the flesh of man for it is sinful, Habakkuk 1:13, and Gods countance is to brilliant for man to look upon. It would be like trying to look at the sun as it is too bright for us to look at with our own eyes. In Exodus 33:20, 23 God told Moses that he could see Gods back parts only as God placed Moses in the crevices to shield him as he passed by him as no one could see his face and live. Gods back parts that we still see today as Moses saw then is Gods grace and mercy on his people that even though we might not be able to see God we always know that he is always with us as his word says he will never leave us or forsake us, Hebrews 13:5.

The only ones who will ever see the throne of God are those of a heavenly spiritual creation in the third heaven, (Bible speaks of three heavens as explained below) which are the angels, Jesus, as now he is in his glorified state, Matthew 17:2, that shines like the sun without flesh and bone, but will return visible for all to see him, Acts 1:9-11, in the same way he ascended visibly and was consumed by the clouds and could no longer be seen by anyone as this is when Jesus was changed from flesh and blood to his immortal state of being spirit once again, 1Corinthians 15:50. Satan, who is also spirit form, can be found at times standing before the throne of God accusing the brethren, but even though he is still in heaven he only has limited access to the throne room of God as he goes to and fro between heaven and earth for now, Job 1:6; Revelation 12:7-12.

No one has or ever will enter into the third heaven where God sits on his throne as it is not a literal place we can see with our own eyes, but that of a Spiritual realm reserve only for that which is created Spiritual. According to John 14:2 Jesus is preparing a new heaven (Atmosphere) and a new earth that he will usher down after the tribulation of those days before his return, Matthew 24:29-31, as when Jesus comes back in the clouds as they have seen him leave he will raise up his Bride into the clouds to meet him in the air, 1Thessalonians 4:14-18, and than will he come down  to plant his feet on the Mount of Olives to make an end of the abomination of sin once and for all and ushers down from the third heaven the new Jerusalem and new earth, Zechariah 14:4; Revelation 21:1,2. Those that are in Christ that have died to the grave and those alive will the angels gather from the four winds of the heavens, Matthew 24:31, and then will be changed in a twinkling of an eye as mortality will put on immortality, corruption will put on incorruption, 1Corinthians 15:51-55 and we will reign with Christ in our new bodies in the reward of the inheritance of the new heaven (Atmosphere), new Jerusalem and new Earth as we will reign with Christ for eternity,  Isaiah 65:17-25; 1Corinthians Chapter 15.

thethinker

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #18 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 17:34:29 »
n2thelight wrote:
Quote
You are absolutely correct,however this only applies if we die before the 7th trump......

Paul said that the rapture was to begin in the last trumpet and not before. The seventh trumpet of the Revelation was the last trumpet. It sounded in ad70 when Jesus returned. Paul told the Thessalonians that they would be ALIVE when He returned (1 Thess. 5:23).

Since Christ's return in ad70 the souls of christians are "caught up" instead of descending to sheol to await resurrection.

thinker

Still think you are missing my point.....For this response I don't care where they get caught up to........The point Im making is that it happens at death,we are changed...This is before the 7th trump.....Now at the 7th trump we are all changed at the same time,to meet up with those who have already died....

There are not multiple 7th trumps....To put it as simply as possible,as long as we are in flesh bodies,Christ has not returned.......

You don't get my point. I did not say that there are multiple seven trumpets. I am saying that the sounding of each trumpet sets off a SERIES of events over a span of time. For instance, if the first trumpet sets off a series of ten events covering a span of 100 years, then each event in that time frame is 'in' (or during) the first trumpet.

Paul said, "In (or during) the last trumpet we shall be changed." The last trumpet sounded in ad70. All who have been changed since ad70 have been changed 'in' that last trumpet.

thinker

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #19 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 19:33:42 »
Literal translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

"For the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

afterwards we who are living, who are remaining over, shall be caught away to join them (NEB) through the clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be."


TO ALL,

There are many who erroneously who think that Paul taught that the the living saints in this passage will be caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised. This cannot be possible because he said that the living saints are caught away "afterwards."

So why do so many christians think that the living saints are caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised? There are two reasons:

1. Because most translations wrongly render the Greek hama in English as "together with" giving the impression that the living saints are caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised.

2. Because they wrongly think that the Greek hama means "at the same time."

It is true that hama may mean "at the same time" but only when used as a particle. When it is used as an adverb it denotes simple association by joining without any reference to simultaneousness (see Strong's# 260).

Paul used hama to translate the Hebrew yachad which means "to become united." Yachad has no reference to simultaneousness at all.

Psalm 14:3:

"They have all turned aside,
They have together [yachad] become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one."


Romans 3:12:

"They have all turned aside;
They have together [hama] become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one."


David was speaking about the fool of his day who had become corrupt because he said "there is no God." Paul applied it to the Jew and the Gentile in his time who had become unprofitable. The sinner of Paul's time did not become decadent simultaneously with the fool in David's day. Though they had become decadent "together" it was not at the same time. They became decadent "together" in the sense that they became united or joined to each other in their decadence.

This is what Paul meant in 1 Thessalonians 4. He meant that we each will be caught away individually to join the resurrected saints in heaven but each in our own succession of time. When I die I will be caught away to join the resurrected saints. The next thing I know I will be in my body from heaven which the resurrected saints now have (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5). My earthly body will have no part in my being caught away. When Raggthyme's time comes she will be caught away to join the resurrected saints and the next thing she will know is that she will be in her body from heaven. The same is true of each of us individually.

We will each be caught away individually in our own succession of time and not at the same time. Our earthly bodies will NOT have a part in it at all. There will be no mass disappearances of people's bodies. Each of us will be caught away to join the resurrected saints in our body from heaven. Our loved ones will take care of the body we leave behind.

thinker



Lets see how THETHINKER believes and if he uses scripture right to male his point that christ has already came...... The gathering together known as the rapture.

Above THETHINKER stats:  
"For the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

afterwards we who are living, who are remaining over, shall be caught away to join them (NEB) through the clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be."
END END THETHINKER END END


1. The Dead in Christ rise when? First and that means their is atleast a second action.
I like how you ADD the word "AFTERWARDS" to make your point.

It really just says: and the dead shall rise first: THEN
we which are alive - AFTERWARDS isn't there.... You added it to make your point. Or your corrupt bible

you NEB bible as I posted says Christ fell from heaven and is going to hell.....  No wonder your bible also adds thus error. Satan likes this teaching. (need proof?)

then I LOVE how when you use the GREEK word HAMA - you say the following:
1. Because most translations wrongly render the Greek hama in English as "together with" giving the impression that the living saints are caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised.

2. Because they wrongly think that the Greek hama means "at the same time."

It is true that hama may mean "at the same time" but only when used as a particle. When it is used as an adverb it denotes simple association by joining without any reference to simultaneousness (see Strong's# 260).

BUT you again CHANGE THINGS THETHINKER!!!!!
It say AT THE (SAME) TIME and then it says ALSO (together)

You've belittled the meaning "same" and added it as also.

I now see how you come up with your beliefs.... Hama chief meaning is "SAME"

you are false teaching!

« Last Edit: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 19:41:35 by KNOWLEDGE BOMB »

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #20 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 20:13:06 »
and this from someone who thought they had a chance at being one of two witnesses of Revelation!!! Which come from heaven so......


What kind of person would intentionally pervert the testimony of another believer just to discredit what he has stated according to the Scripture in this thread?

Long after the beginning of my walk with Christ there was a time when I likened myself to a "minor prophet" and assumed of myself that if I continued to "study to show myself approved" I might even be found worthy to become one of "two witnesses" doing great things for YHWH, in the name of Yeshua, in these last days. And like so many others, so full of pride, I thought I knew more than anyone else and was superior in all things....... End DAQ End


DAQ..... You thought YOU might study and be one of the two witnesses???? Say it isn't so.. I think this says all I need to about you and your beliefs coming and saying I have no scriptural backing ever again....   


Quoted from my own testimony:
Long after the beginning of my walk with Christ there was a time when I likened myself to a "minor prophet" and assumed of myself that if I continued to "study to show myself approved" I might even be found worthy to become one of "two witnesses" doing great things for YHWH, in the name of Yeshua, in these last days. And like so many others, so full of pride, I thought I knew more than anyone else and was superior in all things unto the works and the wonderful knowledge of Christ. Over time, in my great swelling pride, I became entangled in the tail of a dragon and was cast down to earth without even knowing it. And in my arrogance and ignorance, like a star having fallen from heaven, I took the key that only I had, (each of us has his own key) and opened I up the mouth of a well. And the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of a great iron furnace, even darkened with the locusts of Amalek, even the crowned ones of Edom, Moab, and the prominent sons of Ammon, (every crown about the weight of a talent).

Every man has his appointment and none shall be alone in his appointed times. Yet each mow`ed-appointment is separate because we are the Tabernacle of the Congregation, the tent of the place of meeting, the 'ohel mow`ed. Each of us is like an individual sanctuary, a tabernacle, a sukkah, residing in the midst of our impurities in the Great Congregation of YHWH. No man knows the day or the hour of his meeting in the air with Yeshua, but we all who believe will have that meeting in the air; even the clouds of heaven, even the cloud of incense which ascends with the prayers of the saints. And he that overcomes shall not be hurt out from the Second Death, and he that endures unto the end shall be saved, but he that seeks to save his soul shall loose it, "Behold, thou shalt see in that day, when thou shalt go into an inner chamber to hide thyself".
http://www.sheshbazzardaq.com/testimony.html



YHWH has plucked me from the fire, even from the pride of the stout heart of man, and that is why I can freely admit that there was indeed a time when I did fancy myself, in my vain imagination, as some sort of a mighty one. Sorry you cannot handle the truth.

1 John 3:13-15 KJV
13. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.




How did I prevert what you said? You correct me with error and so I make the point that you who correct me is also the person who thought if he studied he might get the chance to be one of the two witnesses of Revelation.... Since this is impossible, I want others who read and try to decided who might be correct, they can make a better judgement call on someone who believed as you did.... I consider you an
false teacher Daq..... You teach from a site that is full of it.  They have taught you what the word says. Not to mention the book of enoch which ISNT a biblcal book so it can only come from Satan.... I only said what you say above and preverted NOTHING!   

Satanist Anton LaVey thought he was the beast BUT that wasn't true either....

daq

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #21 on: Thu Feb 23, 2012 - 21:54:14 »
and this from someone who thought they had a chance at being one of two witnesses of Revelation!!! Which come from heaven so......


What kind of person would intentionally pervert the testimony of another believer just to discredit what he has stated according to the Scripture in this thread?

Long after the beginning of my walk with Christ there was a time when I likened myself to a "minor prophet" and assumed of myself that if I continued to "study to show myself approved" I might even be found worthy to become one of "two witnesses" doing great things for YHWH, in the name of Yeshua, in these last days. And like so many others, so full of pride, I thought I knew more than anyone else and was superior in all things....... End DAQ End


DAQ..... You thought YOU might study and be one of the two witnesses???? Say it isn't so.. I think this says all I need to about you and your beliefs coming and saying I have no scriptural backing ever again....  


Quoted from my own testimony:
Long after the beginning of my walk with Christ there was a time when I likened myself to a "minor prophet" and assumed of myself that if I continued to "study to show myself approved" I might even be found worthy to become one of "two witnesses" doing great things for YHWH, in the name of Yeshua, in these last days. And like so many others, so full of pride, I thought I knew more than anyone else and was superior in all things unto the works and the wonderful knowledge of Christ. Over time, in my great swelling pride, I became entangled in the tail of a dragon and was cast down to earth without even knowing it. And in my arrogance and ignorance, like a star having fallen from heaven, I took the key that only I had, (each of us has his own key) and opened I up the mouth of a well. And the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of a great iron furnace, even darkened with the locusts of Amalek, even the crowned ones of Edom, Moab, and the prominent sons of Ammon, (every crown about the weight of a talent).

Every man has his appointment and none shall be alone in his appointed times. Yet each mow`ed-appointment is separate because we are the Tabernacle of the Congregation, the tent of the place of meeting, the 'ohel mow`ed. Each of us is like an individual sanctuary, a tabernacle, a sukkah, residing in the midst of our impurities in the Great Congregation of YHWH. No man knows the day or the hour of his meeting in the air with Yeshua, but we all who believe will have that meeting in the air; even the clouds of heaven, even the cloud of incense which ascends with the prayers of the saints. And he that overcomes shall not be hurt out from the Second Death, and he that endures unto the end shall be saved, but he that seeks to save his soul shall loose it, "Behold, thou shalt see in that day, when thou shalt go into an inner chamber to hide thyself".
http://www.sheshbazzardaq.com/testimony.html



YHWH has plucked me from the fire, even from the pride of the stout heart of man, and that is why I can freely admit that there was indeed a time when I did fancy myself, in my vain imagination, as some sort of a mighty one. Sorry you cannot handle the truth.

1 John 3:13-15 KJV
13. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.




How did I prevert what you said? You correct me with error and so I make the point that you who correct me is also the person who thought if he studied he might get the chance to be one of the two witnesses of Revelation.... Since this is impossible, I want others who read and try to decided who might be correct, they can make a better judgement call on someone who believed as you did.... I consider you an
false teacher Daq..... You teach from a site that is full of it.  They have taught you what the word says. Not to mention the book of enoch which ISNT a biblcal book so it can only come from Satan.... I only said what you say above and preverted NOTHING!  

Satanist Anton LaVey thought he was the beast BUT that wasn't true either....


Jude 1:8-16 KJV
8. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11. Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12. These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13. Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
14. And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16. These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.


I sincerely hope and pray that your hour of trial has not already come and gone: that you are not already a reprobate-castaway as Paul wrote just after his own "rapture" into the third heaven: For if so then you are like an autumn tree having past the appointed time and still bearing no fruit, a boisterous thunder cloud without water, a twice dead one who did not overcome in his time and was given strong delusion so as to believe the lie about himself being a mighty one. And unfortunately if this be true of you then that scapegoat son of perdition dwelling with you now, seated in your temple, is married to your soul, like Baal, forever.

Enoch 10:7-11
7. And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, and announce his crime to Semjâzâ and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness.
8. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgment and of their consummation, till the judgment that is for ever and ever is consummated.
9. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever.
10. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all generations.
11. And destroy all the spirits of the reprobate and the offspring of the Watchers, for they have tyrannized over mankind.

Revelation 18:1-2 KJV
1. And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.


And none shall be alone in his appointed times ...

Daniel 8:21-24
21. And the shaggy goat-sa`iyr is the king of Yavan: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22. Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of the countenance of `Az shall stand; even understanding dark sentences.
24. And his koach-power shall be mighty, but not by his own koach-power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.


Original Strong's Ref. #3581
Romanized  koach
Pronounced ko'-akh
or (Dn.11v6) kowach {ko'-akh}; from an unused root meaning to be firm; vigor, literally (force, in a good or a bad sense) or figuratively (capacity, means, produce); also (from its hardiness) a large lizard:
KJV--ability, able, chameleon, force, fruits, might, power(-ful), strength, substance, wealth.

Original Strong's Ref. #8163
Romanized  sa`iyr
Pronounced saw-eer'
or sa`ir {saw-eer'}; from HSN8175; shaggy; as noun, a he-goat; by analogy, a faun:
KJV--devil, goat, hairy, kid, rough, satyr.

Isaiah 34:7-17
7. And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8. For it is the day of the vengeance of YHWH, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
9. And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
11. But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
12. They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.
13. And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.
14. The tsiyiym-desert dweller nomads shall also meet with the howlers of the island, and the shaggy-goat-sa`iyr-satyr shall cry to his fellow; Liyliyth also shall settle there, and find for herself a place of rest:
15. There shall she make herself a nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with its mate.
16. Seek ye out of the book of YHWH, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want its mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.
17. And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.

A Sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, (by lot) some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down; compacted soil of the heart, and the fowls of the air devoured it. Hear ye therefore the Parable of the Sower: Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the Wicked one, the Devil, and Satan, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved...


::smile::

thethinker

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #22 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 03:15:55 »
knowledgebomb wrote:
Quote
It really just says: and the dead shall rise first: THEN
we which are alive - AFTERWARDS isn't there.... You added it to make your point. Or your corrupt bible

Knowledgebomb,

I cant believe you said that "AFTERWARDS isn't there." Do you own only one translation?

Quote
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 AFTER THAT, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. NIV

Paul used the same Greek word in 1 Corinthians 15:23

Quote
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, AFTERWARD those who are Christ’s at His coming.


knowledgebomb:
Quote
I now see how you come up with your beliefs.... Hama chief meaning is "SAME"

The Greek hama means "at the same time" when used as a  particle. But when used as an adverb it means "to join" without reference to simultaneousness. See Strong's# 260. He disagrees with what you say is the "chief" meaning. He said that it it is "FREELY used as an adverb denoting CLOSE ASSOCIATION." According to my sources it is an adverb in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The note at the bottom of the Greek-English Reverese Interlinear indicates that hama is an adverb.

Paul used hama to translate the Hebrew yachad which does NOT mean "at the same time." It means "to become united." See the op.

Therefore, it should NOT be translated "together with" but rather "to join" as the NEB correctly reads.

"The dead in Christ shall rise first. AFTERWARD we who are living and remaining shall be caught away TO JOIN (NEB) them...."

Sorry friend but the translators WRONGLY interpreted the scriptures. Paul CLEARLY said that the dead would rise FIRST. Then he said, "AFTERWARD we who are living and remaining shall be caught away TO JOIN them."

thinker
« Last Edit: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 03:25:18 by thethinker »

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #23 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 15:57:34 »
knowledgebomb wrote:
Quote
It really just says: and the dead shall rise first: THEN
we which are alive - AFTERWARDS isn't there.... You added it to make your point. Or your corrupt bible

Knowledgebomb,

I cant believe you said that "AFTERWARDS isn't there." Do you own only one translation?

Quote
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 AFTER THAT, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. NIV

Paul used the same Greek word in 1 Corinthians 15:23

Quote
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, AFTERWARD those who are Christ’s at His coming.


knowledgebomb:
Quote
I now see how you come up with your beliefs.... Hama chief meaning is "SAME"

The Greek hama means "at the same time" when used as a  particle. But when used as an adverb it means "to join" without reference to simultaneousness. See Strong's# 260. He disagrees with what you say is the "chief" meaning. He said that it it is "FREELY used as an adverb denoting CLOSE ASSOCIATION." According to my sources it is an adverb in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The note at the bottom of the Greek-English Reverese Interlinear indicates that hama is an adverb.

Paul used hama to translate the Hebrew yachad which does NOT mean "at the same time." It means "to become united." See the op.

Therefore, it should NOT be translated "together with" but rather "to join" as the NEB correctly reads.

"The dead in Christ shall rise first. AFTERWARD we who are living and remaining shall be caught away TO JOIN (NEB) them...."

Sorry friend but the translators WRONGLY interpreted the scriptures. Paul CLEARLY said that the dead would rise FIRST. Then he said, "AFTERWARD we who are living and remaining shall be caught away TO JOIN them."

thinker

I only use the KJV bible...My bible didn't ADD the word AFTERWARDS!

You never replied to the part where I said your bibles version says Jesus fell from heaven and goes to hell..... Your version is corrupted...

In your bible look and see that it's corrupt!!!

Rev 22:16 says JESUS is the MORNING STAR!
2 Peter 1:19 until the Daystar rises in our hearts (holy spirit)

So who does your bible says goes to Hell?

isaiah 14:12 your bible says what?

The DAYSTAR goes to hell
The morning star goes to hell


Either way YOUR BIBLE says that cause the devils got to it.... And also they added that word AFTERWARDS!!!

daq

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #24 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 17:28:21 »
knowledgebomb wrote:
Quote
It really just says: and the dead shall rise first: THEN
we which are alive - AFTERWARDS isn't there.... You added it to make your point. Or your corrupt bible

Knowledgebomb,

I cant believe you said that "AFTERWARDS isn't there." Do you own only one translation?

Quote
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 AFTER THAT, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. NIV

Paul used the same Greek word in 1 Corinthians 15:23

Quote
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, AFTERWARD those who are Christ’s at His coming.


knowledgebomb:
Quote
I now see how you come up with your beliefs.... Hama chief meaning is "SAME"

The Greek hama means "at the same time" when used as a  particle. But when used as an adverb it means "to join" without reference to simultaneousness. See Strong's# 260. He disagrees with what you say is the "chief" meaning. He said that it it is "FREELY used as an adverb denoting CLOSE ASSOCIATION." According to my sources it is an adverb in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The note at the bottom of the Greek-English Reverese Interlinear indicates that hama is an adverb.

Paul used hama to translate the Hebrew yachad which does NOT mean "at the same time." It means "to become united." See the op.

Therefore, it should NOT be translated "together with" but rather "to join" as the NEB correctly reads.

"The dead in Christ shall rise first. AFTERWARD we who are living and remaining shall be caught away TO JOIN (NEB) them...."

Sorry friend but the translators WRONGLY interpreted the scriptures. Paul CLEARLY said that the dead would rise FIRST. Then he said, "AFTERWARD we who are living and remaining shall be caught away TO JOIN them."

thinker

I only use the KJV bible...My bible didn't ADD the word AFTERWARDS!

You never replied to the part where I said your bibles version says Jesus fell from heaven and goes to hell..... Your version is corrupted...

In your bible look and see that it's corrupt!!!

Rev 22:16 says JESUS is the MORNING STAR!
2 Peter 1:19 until the Daystar rises in our hearts (holy spirit)

So who does your bible says goes to Hell?

isaiah 14:12 your bible says what?

The DAYSTAR goes to hell
The morning star goes to hell


Either way YOUR BIBLE says that cause the devils got to it.... And also they added that word AFTERWARDS!!!

KNOWLEDGE BOMB it has already been posted on the first page for your viewing pleasure. It does not matter what any English text states if it does not reflect the original language and intent of the word used in its context. The fact that you worship the English language over the original languages and cherish the opinions of men precedes and goes before you just as much as does your wiley coyote style exegetical luney tunes buffoonery.  ::smile::

1 Thessalonians 4:17 LIT
17.
   |4412| firstly, [from v.16 in this translation]
   |1899| then
   |2249| we
   |3588| the
   |2198| living
   |4035| remaining
   |0260| together
   |4862| with
   |0846| them
   |0726| will be caught up
   |1722| in
   |3507| clouds
   |1519| to
   |0529| a meeting
   |3588| of the
   |2962| Lord
   |1519| in
   |0109| {the} air,
   |2532| and
   |3779| so [houto - in this way]
   |3842| always
   |4862| with
   |2962| {the} Lord
   |2071| we will be.


Original Strong's Ref. #260
Romanized  hama
Pronounced ham'-ah
a primary particle; properly, at the "same" time, but freely used as a preposition or adverb denoting close association:
KJV--also, and, together, with(-al).

Original Strong's Ref. #4862
Romanized  sun
Pronounced soon
a primary preposition denoting union; with or together (but much closer than GSN3326 or GSN3844), i.e. by association, companionship, process, resemblance, possession, instrumentality, addition, etc.:
KJV--beside, with. In composition it has similar applications, including completeness.

Original Strong's Ref. #2071
Romanized  esomai
Pronounced es'-om-ahee
future of GSN1510; will be:
KJV--shall (should) be (have), (shall) come (to pass), X may have, X fall, what would follow, X live long, X sojourn.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 TUA
17. Epeitahemeis hoi zontes hoi perileipomenoi hama sun autois harpagesometha en nefelais eis apantesin tou Kuriou eisaera.  Kai houtos pantote sun Kurio esometha.
17. "Thereafter we the living; the remaining all about, together beside-alongside them shall be caught up in the clouds into a meeting of the Master in the air. And in this way, ever beside-alongside the Master shall we be-(what would follow)-(come to pass)-sojourn."

Each in his or her own appointed times ...
And none shall be alone in his appointed times ...


Original Strong's Ref. #1899
Romanized  epeita
Pronounced ep'-i-tah
from GSN1909 and GSN1534; thereafter:
KJV--after that(-ward), then.

thethinker

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #25 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 17:57:53 »
knowledgebomb wrote:
Quote
I only use the KJV bible...My bible didn't ADD the word AFTERWARDS!

The Greek word is "epeita" which means "afterward." The actual Greek text says "afterward." The KJV is NOT inspired. Only the Greek text is inspired.

The same word (epeita) is used in 1 Corinthians 15:23,

"Each one in His own order. Christ a firstfruit; AFTERWARD they that are Christ's in His coming."

Quote
You never replied to the part where I said your bibles version says Jesus fell from heaven and goes to hell..... Your version is corrupted...

I have no idea what you are talking about!

Quote
In your bible look and see that it's corrupt!!!

Rev 22:16 says JESUS is the MORNING STAR!
2 Peter 1:19 until the Daystar rises in our hearts (holy spirit)

So who does your bible says goes to Hell?

isaiah 14:12 your bible says what?

The DAYSTAR goes to hell
The morning star goes to hell

Either way YOUR BIBLE says that cause the devils got to it....

Again I have no idea what you are talking about.

Quote
And also they added that word AFTERWARDS!!!

You're being ridiculous. The Greek word is "epeita" which means "afterward."

"Each one in his own order; Christ a firstfruit; AFTERWARD (epeita) they that are Christ's in His coming."

"The dead in Christ shall rise first. AFTERWARD (epeita) we who are living and remaining shall be caught away...."


I see you have now totally ignored that the word hama is an adverb and as an adverb it does NOT mean "at the same time."

I am done engaging with you until you bring something scholarly to the discussion.

thinker

daq

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #26 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 18:24:32 »
knowledgebomb wrote:
Quote
I only use the KJV bible...My bible didn't ADD the word AFTERWARDS!

The Greek word is "epeita" which means "afterward." The actual Greek text says "afterward." The KJV is NOT inspired. Only the Greek text is inspired.

The same word (epeita) is used in 1 Corinthians 15:23,

"Each one in His own order. Christ a firstfruit; AFTERWARD they that are Christ's in His coming."

Quote
You never replied to the part where I said your bibles version says Jesus fell from heaven and goes to hell..... Your version is corrupted...

I have no idea what you are talking about!

Quote
In your bible look and see that it's corrupt!!!

Rev 22:16 says JESUS is the MORNING STAR!
2 Peter 1:19 until the Daystar rises in our hearts (holy spirit)

So who does your bible says goes to Hell?

isaiah 14:12 your bible says what?

The DAYSTAR goes to hell
The morning star goes to hell

Either way YOUR BIBLE says that cause the devils got to it....

Again I have no idea what you are talking about.

Quote
And also they added that word AFTERWARDS!!!

You're being ridiculous. The Greek word is "epeita" which means "afterward."

"Each one in his own order; Christ a firstfruit; AFTERWARD (epeita) they that are Christ's in His coming."

"The dead in Christ shall rise first. AFTERWARD (epeita) we who are living and remaining shall be caught away...."


I see you have now totally ignored that the word hama is an adverb and as an adverb it does NOT mean "at the same time."

I am done engaging with you until you bring something scholarly to the discussion.

thinker

Now if only you might stick with the original meaning and intent of the word "epeita" which is "THEREAFTER" then you might see that resurrection occurs EACH IN HIS OWN APPOINTED TIME because that also is exactly what Paul states in the verse you have quoted:

"Each one in his own order; Christ a firstfruit; AFTERWARD (epeita) they that are Christ's in His coming."

"THEREAFTER"  =  "FROM THAT DAY-TIME-EVENT FORWARD"

1 Corinthians 15:23 KJV
23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward (GSN#1899 epeita) they that are Christ's at his coming.


"But each one-man in his own order; Christ the firstfruits; THEREAFTER (FROM THAT DAY-TIME-EVENT FORWARD) they that are Christ's in-at his parousia"...  ::smile::

daq

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #27 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 19:23:59 »
EPEITA is a word compounded from EPI and EITA

Original Strong's Ref. #1899
Romanized  epeita
Pronounced ep'-i-tah
from GSN1909 and GSN1534; thereafter:
KJV--after that(-ward), then.

Original Strong's Ref. #1909
Romanized  epi
Pronounced ep-ee'
a primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution [with the genitive case], i.e. over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the det.) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.:
KJV--about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, [where-])fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-)on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).

Original Strong's Ref. #1534
Romanized  eita
Pronounced i'-tah
of uncertain affinity; a particle of succession (in time or logical enumeration), then, moreover:
KJV--after that(-ward), furthermore, then. See also GSN1899.

A SUCCESSION in TIME or LOGICAL ENUMERATION ~

EACH ONE IS A LIVING STONE IN THE TEMPLE OF YESHUA
EACH IN HIS OWN APPOINTED TIME




17-153-969 Temple of Yeshua

Sum(17) = 153

1 = Capstone
3 = 1+2
6 = 1+2+3
10 = 1+2+3+4
15 = 1+2+3+4+5
21 = 1+2+3+4+5+6
28 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7
36 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8
45 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9
55 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10
66 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11
78 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12
91 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13
105 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14
120 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15
136 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15+16
153 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15+16+17
969



Sum(23) = 276

1 = Capstone
3 = 1+2
6 = 1+2+3
10 = 1+2+3+4
15 = 1+2+3+4+5
21 = 1+2+3+4+5+6
28 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7
36 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8
45 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9
55 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10
66 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11
78 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12
91 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13
105 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14
120 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15
136 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15+16
153 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15+16+17
171 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15+16+17+18
190 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15+16+17+18+19
210 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15+16+17+18+19+20
231 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15+16+17+18+19+20+21
253 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15+16+17+18+19+20+21+22
276 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12+13+14+15+16+17+18+19+20+21+22+23
2300




"And the city lieth tetragonos, (four cornered) and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal"…

Re: possible time of future tribulation events
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2011, 06:55:10 PM »

Offline fenton

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #28 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 19:39:45 »
We are caught away individually is correct, when I die poof I'm gone, when you die phizzle your gone. How about them apples. But when the rapture takes place everyone will be caught away at the same time. Wooooosh!     

daq

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #29 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 19:54:22 »
We are caught away individually is correct, when I die poof I'm gone, when you die phizzle your gone. How about them apples. But when the rapture takes place everyone will be caught away at the same time. Wooooosh!     

The Scripture supports what has been plentifully stated and shown throughout these forums, and what also happened to myself, which has been testified throughout these forums. Yet none of you believe that testimony just as you do not believe the Testimony of Yeshua or Paul his servant:

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 KJV
1. It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up (GSN#726 harpazo) to the third heaven.
3. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4. How that he was caught up (GSN#726 harpazo) into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


Original Strong's Ref. #726
Romanized  harpazo
Pronounced har-pad'-zo
from a derivative of GSN0138; to sieze (in various applications):
KJV--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (GSN#726 harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Offline fenton

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #30 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 20:00:24 »
We are caught away individually is correct, when I die poof I'm gone, when you die phizzle your gone. How about them apples. But when the rapture takes place everyone will be caught away at the same time. Wooooosh!     

The Scripture supports what has been plentifully stated and shown throughout these forums, and what also happened to myself, which has been testified throughout these forums. Yet none of you believe that testimony just as you do not believe the Testimony of Yeshua or Paul his servant:

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 KJV
1. It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up (GSN#726 harpazo) to the third heaven.
3. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4. How that he was caught up (GSN#726 harpazo) into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.



Original Strong's Ref. #726
Romanized  harpazo
Pronounced har-pad'-zo
from a derivative of GSN0138; to sieze (in various applications):
KJV--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (GSN#726 harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Daq what did I say that was any different then what you just said?

Lehigh

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #31 on: Fri Feb 24, 2012 - 21:54:43 »
Literal translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

"For the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

afterwards we who are living, who are remaining over, shall be caught away to join them (NEB) through the clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be."


TO ALL,

There are many who erroneously who think that Paul taught that the the living saints in this passage will be caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised. This cannot be possible because he said that the living saints are caught away "afterwards."

So why do so many christians think that the living saints are caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised? There are two reasons:

1. Because most translations wrongly render the Greek hama in English as "together with" giving the impression that the living saints are caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised.

2. Because they wrongly think that the Greek hama means "at the same time."

It is true that hama may mean "at the same time" but only when used as a particle. When it is used as an adverb it denotes simple association by joining without any reference to simultaneousness (see Strong's# 260).

Paul used hama to translate the Hebrew yachad which means "to become united." Yachad has no reference to simultaneousness at all.

Psalm 14:3:

"They have all turned aside,
They have together [yachad] become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one."


Romans 3:12:

"They have all turned aside;
They have together [hama] become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one."


David was speaking about the fool of his day who had become corrupt because he said "there is no God." Paul applied it to the Jew and the Gentile in his time who had become unprofitable. The sinner of Paul's time did not become decadent simultaneously with the fool in David's day. Though they had become decadent "together" it was not at the same time. They became decadent "together" in the sense that they became united or joined to each other in their decadence.

This is what Paul meant in 1 Thessalonians 4. He meant that we each will be caught away individually to join the resurrected saints in heaven but each in our own succession of time. When I die I will be caught away to join the resurrected saints. The next thing I know I will be in my body from heaven which the resurrected saints now have (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5). My earthly body will have no part in my being caught away. When Raggthyme's time comes she will be caught away to join the resurrected saints and the next thing she will know is that she will be in her body from heaven. The same is true of each of us individually.

We will each be caught away individually in our own succession of time and not at the same time. Our earthly bodies will NOT have a part in it at all. There will be no mass disappearances of people's bodies. Each of us will be caught away to join the resurrected saints in our body from heaven. Our loved ones will take care of the body we leave behind.

thinker



I concur.  (and am not still waiting for the 7th trumpet either!) It was done.

thethinker

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #32 on: Sat Feb 25, 2012 - 03:43:19 »
Literal translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

"For the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

afterwards we who are living, who are remaining over, shall be caught away to join them (NEB) through the clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be."


TO ALL,

There are many who erroneously who think that Paul taught that the the living saints in this passage will be caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised. This cannot be possible because he said that the living saints are caught away "afterwards."

So why do so many christians think that the living saints are caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised? There are two reasons:

1. Because most translations wrongly render the Greek hama in English as "together with" giving the impression that the living saints are caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised.

2. Because they wrongly think that the Greek hama means "at the same time."

It is true that hama may mean "at the same time" but only when used as a particle. When it is used as an adverb it denotes simple association by joining without any reference to simultaneousness (see Strong's# 260).

Paul used hama to translate the Hebrew yachad which means "to become united." Yachad has no reference to simultaneousness at all.

Psalm 14:3:

"They have all turned aside,
They have together [yachad] become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one."


Romans 3:12:

"They have all turned aside;
They have together [hama] become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one."


David was speaking about the fool of his day who had become corrupt because he said "there is no God." Paul applied it to the Jew and the Gentile in his time who had become unprofitable. The sinner of Paul's time did not become decadent simultaneously with the fool in David's day. Though they had become decadent "together" it was not at the same time. They became decadent "together" in the sense that they became united or joined to each other in their decadence.

This is what Paul meant in 1 Thessalonians 4. He meant that we each will be caught away individually to join the resurrected saints in heaven but each in our own succession of time. When I die I will be caught away to join the resurrected saints. The next thing I know I will be in my body from heaven which the resurrected saints now have (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5). My earthly body will have no part in my being caught away. When Raggthyme's time comes she will be caught away to join the resurrected saints and the next thing she will know is that she will be in her body from heaven. The same is true of each of us individually.

We will each be caught away individually in our own succession of time and not at the same time. Our earthly bodies will NOT have a part in it at all. There will be no mass disappearances of people's bodies. Each of us will be caught away to join the resurrected saints in our body from heaven. Our loved ones will take care of the body we leave behind.

thinker



I concur.  (and am not still waiting for the 7th trumpet either!) It was done.

Good to see you posting again Lehigh. Manna!

thinker

daq

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #33 on: Sat Feb 25, 2012 - 05:15:38 »
We are caught away individually is correct, when I die poof I'm gone, when you die phizzle your gone. How about them apples. But when the rapture takes place everyone will be caught away at the same time. Wooooosh!      

The Scripture supports what has been plentifully stated and shown throughout these forums, and what also happened to myself, which has been testified throughout these forums. Yet none of you believe that testimony just as you do not believe the Testimony of Yeshua or Paul his servant:

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 KJV
1. It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up (GSN#726 harpazo) to the third heaven.
3. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4. How that he was caught up (GSN#726 harpazo) into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.



Original Strong's Ref. #726
Romanized  harpazo
Pronounced har-pad'-zo
from a derivative of GSN0138; to sieze (in various applications):
KJV--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (GSN#726 harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Daq what did I say that was any different then what you just said?

Nothing personal fenton, (surely Christ is working in you brother). Look closer at the passage you have re-quoted from 2Cor.12:1-4 and you might just see two men, two anthropon, even "two witnesses" and yet one of them was still the "old man" Saul. Surely Saul was caught up, and surely Paul was caught up; and in that night they two were in one bed, they two were out in the field: one was taken-received up near, and the other was aphiemi-sent away, even sent away into destruction. And just exactly where did this occur for SauloPaulo? "Wheresoever the carcass is; there will the eagles be gathered together." And thereafter that fateful night, wherein he surely did overcome, then was PAUL ever with the Great King: even from that great day of Atonement forward. And that very day of Atonement, (which no man knows but the Father) with the sprinkling of the conscience and heart in the holy Spirit-Blood of the New Covenant; that great day of Atonement was the ending of time for him, even the seventh trumpet, even the consummation of the aionos-age. Yet each in his appointed time; for it is appointed unto anthropon-men, (the soul) once to die, and after this the decision, and none shall be alone in his appointed times. Thereafter was Paul a new creation and outside of time: Eternal Shabbat, even The Rest, even The Way; raised up in Christ to finish running his own race. And none of this has anything to do with any "physical death" because the flesh profits nothing according to the Doctrine of Yeshua. Physical death is not even recognized in the New Testament Scripture concerning the saints:

If one is IN CHRIST then that one lives.
If one is truly alive IN CHRIST then he cannot die anymore ...


John 11:26 KJV
25. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

When Saul died then Paul was born a son into the Kingdom and he lives.
Afterwards he finished running the race, going to Rome; a slave of Christ ...

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #34 on: Sat Feb 25, 2012 - 14:20:55 »
Phillipians 1:22-23) Paul ponders staying on earth alive OR to die and be with Christ.

2 thess) Paul tells all believers to rest with HIM till Christ comes
(Rest@Heb 4:1-11) TILL Christ comes...... REVEALED from HEAVEN (Rev 6:14-17)


I SAY:
 
that Paul died and SLEPT until Christ comes.
To Paul, it's as if he died and here comes Jesus.


Try this your way:

Paul died and went to heaven
Paul then tells EVERY BELIEVER to wait (with THEM) till Christ comes.

See how it only works one way......


Add to that Matt 26:64 which tells us the NEXT time we see Christ will be at the right hand of the father and COMING ON THE CLOUDS....

Here's that time:

Rev 6:14-17


We know all eyes see him coming on clouds (rev1:7)
this is it matt 26:64  Rev 6:14-16

both the dead and living see Christ come and so this is ALL men Caiaphas and Paul included!

 

     
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