Author Topic: We are caught away individually in successions.  (Read 4250 times)

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thethinker

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We are caught away individually in successions.
« on: February 16, 2012, 12:17:05 PM »
Literal translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

"For the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

afterwards we who are living, who are remaining over, shall be caught away to join them (NEB) through the clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be."


TO ALL,

There are many who erroneously who think that Paul taught that the the living saints in this passage will be caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised. This cannot be possible because he said that the living saints are caught away "afterwards."

So why do so many christians think that the living saints are caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised? There are two reasons:

1. Because most translations wrongly render the Greek hama in English as "together with" giving the impression that the living saints are caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised.

2. Because they wrongly think that the Greek hama means "at the same time."

It is true that hama may mean "at the same time" but only when used as a particle. When it is used as an adverb it denotes simple association by joining without any reference to simultaneousness (see Strong's# 260).

Paul used hama to translate the Hebrew yachad which means "to become united." Yachad has no reference to simultaneousness at all.

Psalm 14:3:

"They have all turned aside,
They have together [yachad] become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one."


Romans 3:12:

"They have all turned aside;
They have together [hama] become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one."


David was speaking about the fool of his day who had become corrupt because he said "there is no God." Paul applied it to the Jew and the Gentile in his time who had become unprofitable. The sinner of Paul's time did not become decadent simultaneously with the fool in David's day. Though they had become decadent "together" it was not at the same time. They became decadent "together" in the sense that they became united or joined to each other in their decadence.

This is what Paul meant in 1 Thessalonians 4. He meant that we each will be caught away individually to join the resurrected saints in heaven but each in our own succession of time. When I die I will be caught away to join the resurrected saints. The next thing I know I will be in my body from heaven which the resurrected saints now have (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5). My earthly body will have no part in my being caught away. When Raggthyme's time comes she will be caught away to join the resurrected saints and the next thing she will know is that she will be in her body from heaven. The same is true of each of us individually.

We will each be caught away individually in our own succession of time and not at the same time. Our earthly bodies will NOT have a part in it at all. There will be no mass disappearances of people's bodies. Each of us will be caught away to join the resurrected saints in our body from heaven. Our loved ones will take care of the body we leave behind.

thinker

« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 12:26:54 PM by thethinker »

daq

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2012, 03:25:26 PM »
HALLELUYAH!! FINALLY!!!  ::smile::  ::nodding::

Exodus 34:5-6 KJV
5. And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.
6. And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,




::band::      ::gift::      ::woo::


In addition GSN#260 "hama" is used in conjunction with GSN#4862 "sun" ~

1 Thessalonians 4:17 LIT
17.
   |4412| firstly, [from v.16 in this translation]
   |1899| then
   |2249| we
   |3588| the
   |2198| living
   |4035| remaining
   |0260| together
   |4862| with
   |0846| them
   |0726| will be caught up
   |1722| in
   |3507| clouds
   |1519| to
   |0529| a meeting
   |3588| of the
   |2962| Lord
   |1519| in
   |0109| {the} air,
   |2532| and
   |3779| so [houto - in this way]
   |3842| always
   |4862| with
   |2962| {the} Lord
   |2071| we will be.


Original Strong's Ref. #260
Romanized  hama
Pronounced ham'-ah
a primary particle; properly, at the "same" time, but freely used as a preposition or adverb denoting close association:
KJV--also, and, together, with(-al).

Original Strong's Ref. #4862
Romanized  sun
Pronounced soon
a primary preposition denoting union; with or together (but much closer than GSN3326 or GSN3844), i.e. by association, companionship, process, resemblance, possession, instrumentality, addition, etc.:
KJV--beside, with. In composition it has similar applications, including completeness.

Original Strong's Ref. #2071
Romanized  esomai
Pronounced es'-om-ahee
future of GSN1510; will be:
KJV--shall (should) be (have), (shall) come (to pass), X may have, X fall, what would follow, X live long, X sojourn.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 TUA
17. Epeitahemeis hoi zontes hoi perileipomenoi hama sun autois harpagesometha en nefelais eis apantesin tou Kuriou eisaera.  Kai houtos pantote sun Kurio esometha.
17. "Thereafter we the living; the remaining all about, together beside-alongside them shall be caught up in the clouds into a meeting of the Master in the air. And in this way, ever beside-alongside the Master shall we be-(what would follow)-(come to pass)-sojourn."

Each in his or her own appointed times ...
And none shall be alone in his appointed times ...

Offline n2thelight

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2012, 08:35:32 PM »
Quote
We will each be caught away individually in our own succession of time and not at the same time. Our earthly bodies will NOT have a part in it at all. There will be no mass disappearances of people's bodies. Each of us will be caught away to join the resurrected saints in our body from heaven. Our loved ones will take care of the body we leave behind.

thinker

You are absolutely correct,however this only applies if we die before the 7th trump......

When Christ returns,we will be gathered at the same time,we will meet up with those who have already died,they are the ones Christ brings back with Him......

1 Thessalonians 4:14  
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


That's why those alive at Christ return cannot precede those who have died,for the simple fact that they are already with Him............

Paul said we would not all sleep(die)but we shall all be changed........

At the 7th trump we meet up with those in Christ who have already died..........


This is the number one proof,that Christ has not returned yet,because we have yet to be changed like those who have already died..........


« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 08:50:25 PM by n2thelight »
"When we come to ask ourselves, and say, "Where did I learn this?" "How did I get this?" "Who taught me this?" it is astonishing to find how much we have imbibed from man, and from tradition; and not directly and for ourselves, from the Word of God. "


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thethinker

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2012, 12:23:38 PM »
n2thelight wrote:
Quote
You are absolutely correct,however this only applies if we die before the 7th trump......

Paul said that the rapture was to begin in the last trumpet and not before. The seventh trumpet of the Revelation was the last trumpet. It sounded in ad70 when Jesus returned. Paul told the Thessalonians that they would be ALIVE when He returned (1 Thess. 5:23).

Since Christ's return in ad70 the souls of christians are "caught up" instead of descending to sheol to await resurrection.

thinker

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2012, 08:14:38 AM »
n2thelight wrote:
Quote
You are absolutely correct,however this only applies if we die before the 7th trump......

Paul said that the rapture was to begin in the last trumpet and not before. The seventh trumpet of the Revelation was the last trumpet. It sounded in ad70 when Jesus returned. Paul told the Thessalonians that they would be ALIVE when He returned (1 Thess. 5:23).

Since Christ's return in ad70 the souls of christians are "caught up" instead of descending to sheol to await resurrection.

thinker

the verse you quote 5:23 says that he hoped (prayed) they'd be blameless when he came, since believers CAN fall away, this is what he is referring to..... Jesus never showed in 70ad you have no biblical basis for this claim..... Jerusalem was destroyed in 70ad. So  when Christ DOES return, Paul is hoping the kept themselfs unblemished - rememeber puals not going to be at their side to see their walk so he prays that when Christ comes they rise to glory instead of shame.

We also know that the next time AFTER Christ assended to heaven that YOUD SEE HIM At the RIGHT Hand if the father IN HEAVEN (Matt 26:64)... This happens in Rev 6:16 at the start of rapture, this is when every eye sees him even the dead! (Rev1:7)
It's just as important to KNOW what's NOT in the Bible
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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2012, 08:14:38 AM »



Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2012, 08:52:34 AM »
Quote
We will each be caught away individually in our own succession of time and not at the same time. Our earthly bodies will NOT have a part in it at all. There will be no mass disappearances of people's bodies. Each of us will be caught away to join the resurrected saints in our body from heaven. Our loved ones will take care of the body we leave behind.

thinker

You are absolutely correct,however this only applies if we die before the 7th trump......

When Christ returns,we will be gathered at the same time,we will meet up with those who have already died,they are the ones Christ brings back with Him......

1 Thessalonians 4:14  
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


That's why those alive at Christ return cannot precede those who have died,for the simple fact that they are already with Him............

Paul said we would not all sleep(die)but we shall all be changed........

At the 7th trump we meet up with those in Christ who have already died..........


This is the number one proof,that Christ has not returned yet,because we have yet to be changed like those who have already died..........




1. He will come on the clouds with his mighty angels - no saints here!(acts 1:11)
2. All eyes will see him coming (rev1:7)
3. And the DEAD shall arise when? FIRST!!!! So this means there's a second also
4. And those still alive will be caught up TOGETHER in those clouds to meet the LORD.
 5. There's no biblical scripture to back your statement that CHRIST RETURNED IN 70ad
YOU DO NOT HAVE Srcipture to back up you statement that the dead are in heaven now.....

1. The dead rise 1st and we are CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with THEM.

It's just as important to KNOW what's NOT in the Bible
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thethinker

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2012, 09:07:58 AM »
Knowledgebomb wrote:
Quote
The dead rise 1st and we are CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with THEM.

Did you bother at all to read the op? The  Greek word "hama" does NOT mean that we are caught up together with the dead after they are resurrected.  As an adverb it means "to join [in succession]." The NEB correctly translates it "to join."

The old testament saints were resurrected in ad70 and are in heaven. We who are living will be caught up to join them individually when we die. We will be caught up to join them in our body which is from heaven (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5).

PLEASE read the op before you respond.

thinker

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2012, 09:16:09 AM »
Knowledgebomb wrote:
Quote
The dead rise 1st and we are CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with THEM.

Did you bother at all to read the op? The  Greek word "hama" does NOT mean that we are caught up together with the dead after they are resurrected.  As an adverb it means "to join [in succession]." The NEB correctly translates it "to join."

The old testament saints were resurrected in ad70 and are in heaven. We who are living will be caught up to join them individually when we die. We will be caught up to join them in our body which is from heaven (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5).

PLEASE read the op before you respond.

thinker

Again you have NO BIBLICAL backup for your teaching that Christ returned in 70ad

and if you read, you'll see I did address this before..... And that was you have no scripture to back 70ad

It's just as important to KNOW what's NOT in the Bible
as it is to KNOW what IS

thethinker

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2012, 09:25:20 AM »
Knowledgebomb wrote:
Quote
The dead rise 1st and we are CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with THEM.

Did you bother at all to read the op? The  Greek word "hama" does NOT mean that we are caught up together with the dead after they are resurrected.  As an adverb it means "to join [in succession]." The NEB correctly translates it "to join."

The old testament saints were resurrected in ad70 and are in heaven. We who are living will be caught up to join them individually when we die. We will be caught up to join them in our body which is from heaven (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5).

PLEASE read the op before you respond.

thinker

Again you have NO BIBLICAL backup for your teaching that Christ returned in 70ad

and if you read, you'll see I did address this before..... And that was you have no scripture to back 70ad



Where have you been? Christ told Caiaphas the high Priest that he would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds. Paul told the Thessalonians that they would get relief from their persecutions "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven" (2 Thess. 2:3-8).

Paul told them that their bodies, souls and spirits would be PRESERVED until the Lord's coming (1 Thess. 5:23). This means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE when He came.

thinker

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2012, 10:02:32 AM »
NEB bible huh..... Thinker Your trustworthy bible says God fell from heaven and will go to hell!
In fact I bet most if not ALL the bibles used by Christians do....

There are 2 of these statements depending on your bible....

First for Most of the bibles on this forum - watch the devil work!

Rev 22:16 and this tells us that Jesus is the bright and MORNING STAR.
2 Peter 1:19 tells us we have the assurance of the DAYSTAR arising in our hearts.

Jesus is the morning star and the daystar (holy spirit) arises in our hearts.

So NOW turn to Isaiah 14:12 and you will see in YOUR BIBLES that either it's the MORNING STAR or the DAYSTAR that fell from heaven and is going to hell!

Now if you got the KING JAMES VERSION it will CORRECTLY say:

O LUCIFER - your bible change's the word to "HE" so that it could be anyone!
SON OF THE MORING - your bible's changed it from Satan to Jesus or HS

now when Satan comes HE will grab your bibles and say SEE,
YOUR BIBLE EVEN SAY JESUS FELL NOT ME!!!!

And your gonna tell me your version has the words right on "TO JOIN"

see the devil musta changed your bible there too...


Now on the caught up (1thess 4:17) the Greek word for "caught" up is HARPAZO (726 strongs)
which means to "catch pluck pull take by force"



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Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2012, 10:12:03 AM »


Where have you been? Christ told Caiaphas the high Priest that he would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds. Paul told the Thessalonians that they would get relief from their persecutions "when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven" (2 Thess. 2:3-8).

Paul told them that their bodies, souls and spirits would be PRESERVED until the Lord's coming (1 Thess. 5:23). This means that they would be PHYSICALLY ALIVE when He came.

thinker

1. Ofcourse he will see Christ return - again REV 1:7 says ALL EYES EVEN THE DEAD WILL SEE CHRIST COMING ON CLOUDS
A. So now that THAT is setteled
Again as I stated before:
2. Pauls hopes (PRAYS) that the believer will be found (Dan12:2 by Christ waking to life while the others who ALSO see his return wake to shame)

Since believers CAN fall away Paul prays that this won't happen to them since he won't be at their side 24/7.
It's just as important to KNOW what's NOT in the Bible
as it is to KNOW what IS

daq

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2012, 10:26:11 AM »
Knowledgebomb wrote:
Quote
The dead rise 1st and we are CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with THEM.

Did you bother at all to read the op? The  Greek word "hama" does NOT mean that we are caught up together with the dead after they are resurrected.  As an adverb it means "to join [in succession]." The NEB correctly translates it "to join."

The old testament saints were resurrected in ad70 and are in heaven. We who are living will be caught up to join them individually when we die. We will be caught up to join them in our body which is from heaven (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5).

PLEASE read the op before you respond.

thinker

While the 70AD date may be erroneous because it was rather 30AD, at the Pentecost concerning what is written in Acts 2, still the point made in the OP and here agian cannot be overstated! It proves that the Gospel is individual and to each in his appointed times. Thus when each believer comes to his own "seventh trumpet" a son is born into the kingdom, (those who overcome in their hour of trial).

THEN has that son born into the Kingdom fully JOINED the Family ~

Hebrews 12:18-24 KJV
18. For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19. And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20. (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21. And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)
22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


And when one fully understands this he will understand why this particular Epistle was addressed to the HEBREWS in the first place: for he will have been fully graffed into the Olive Tree of YHWH.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2012, 10:53:53 AM »
Knowledgebomb wrote:
Quote
The dead rise 1st and we are CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with THEM.

Did you bother at all to read the op? The  Greek word "hama" does NOT mean that we are caught up together with the dead after they are resurrected.  As an adverb it means "to join [in succession]." The NEB correctly translates it "to join."

The old testament saints were resurrected in ad70 and are in heaven. We who are living will be caught up to join them individually when we die. We will be caught up to join them in our body which is from heaven (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5).

PLEASE read the op before you respond.

thinker

While the 70AD date may be erroneous because it was rather 30AD, at the Pentecost concerning what is written in Acts 2, still the point made in the OP and here agian cannot be overstated! It proves that the Gospel is individual and to each in his appointed times. Thus when each believer comes to his own "seventh trumpet" a son is born into the kingdom, (those who overcome in their hour of trial).

THEN has that son born into the Kingdom fully JOINED the Family ~

Hebrews 12:18-24 KJV
18. For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19. And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20. (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21. And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)
22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


And when one fully understands this he will understand why this particular Epistle was addressed to the HEBREWS in the first place: for he will have been fully graffed into the Olive Tree of YHWH.

and this from someone who thought they had a chance at being one of two witnesses of Revelation!!! Which come from heaven so......

It's just as important to KNOW what's NOT in the Bible
as it is to KNOW what IS

daq

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2012, 12:05:07 PM »
and this from someone who thought they had a chance at being one of two witnesses of Revelation!!! Which come from heaven so......


What kind of person would intentionally pervert the testimony of another believer just to discredit what he has stated according to the Scripture in this thread?

Long after the beginning of my walk with Christ there was a time when I likened myself to a "minor prophet" and assumed of myself that if I continued to "study to show myself approved" I might even be found worthy to become one of "two witnesses" doing great things for YHWH, in the name of Yeshua, in these last days. And like so many others, so full of pride, I thought I knew more than anyone else and was superior in all things....... End DAQ End


DAQ..... You thought YOU might study and be one of the two witnesses???? Say it isn't so.. I think this says all I need to about you and your beliefs coming and saying I have no scriptural backing ever again....   


Quoted from my own testimony:
Long after the beginning of my walk with Christ there was a time when I likened myself to a "minor prophet" and assumed of myself that if I continued to "study to show myself approved" I might even be found worthy to become one of "two witnesses" doing great things for YHWH, in the name of Yeshua, in these last days. And like so many others, so full of pride, I thought I knew more than anyone else and was superior in all things unto the works and the wonderful knowledge of Christ. Over time, in my great swelling pride, I became entangled in the tail of a dragon and was cast down to earth without even knowing it. And in my arrogance and ignorance, like a star having fallen from heaven, I took the key that only I had, (each of us has his own key) and opened I up the mouth of a well. And the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of a great iron furnace, even darkened with the locusts of Amalek, even the crowned ones of Edom, Moab, and the prominent sons of Ammon, (every crown about the weight of a talent).

Every man has his appointment and none shall be alone in his appointed times. Yet each mow`ed-appointment is separate because we are the Tabernacle of the Congregation, the tent of the place of meeting, the 'ohel mow`ed. Each of us is like an individual sanctuary, a tabernacle, a sukkah, residing in the midst of our impurities in the Great Congregation of YHWH. No man knows the day or the hour of his meeting in the air with Yeshua, but we all who believe will have that meeting in the air; even the clouds of heaven, even the cloud of incense which ascends with the prayers of the saints. And he that overcomes shall not be hurt out from the Second Death, and he that endures unto the end shall be saved, but he that seeks to save his soul shall loose it, "Behold, thou shalt see in that day, when thou shalt go into an inner chamber to hide thyself".
http://www.sheshbazzardaq.com/testimony.html



YHWH has plucked me from the fire, even from the pride of the stout heart of man, and that is why I can freely admit that there was indeed a time when I did fancy myself, in my vain imagination, as some sort of a mighty one. Sorry you cannot handle the truth.

1 John 3:13-15 KJV
13. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Offline n2thelight

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Re: We are caught away individually in successions.
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2012, 06:23:55 PM »
n2thelight wrote:
Quote
You are absolutely correct,however this only applies if we die before the 7th trump......

Paul said that the rapture was to begin in the last trumpet and not before. The seventh trumpet of the Revelation was the last trumpet. It sounded in ad70 when Jesus returned. Paul told the Thessalonians that they would be ALIVE when He returned (1 Thess. 5:23).

Since Christ's return in ad70 the souls of christians are "caught up" instead of descending to sheol to await resurrection.

thinker

Still think you are missing my point.....For this response I don't care where they get caught up to........The point Im making is that it happens at death,we are changed...This is before the 7th trump.....Now at the 7th trump we are all changed at the same time,to meet up with those who have already died....

There are not multiple 7th trumps....To put it as simply as possible,as long as we are in flesh bodies,Christ has not returned.......
"When we come to ask ourselves, and say, "Where did I learn this?" "How did I get this?" "Who taught me this?" it is astonishing to find how much we have imbibed from man, and from tradition; and not directly and for ourselves, from the Word of God. "


How to Enjoy the Bible
E. W. Bullinger
1916


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