We are caught away individually in successions.

[fenton]

We are caught away individually is correct, when I die poof I'm gone, when you die phizzle your gone. How about them apples. But when the rapture takes place everyone will be caught away at the same time. Wooooosh!     

The Scripture supports what has been plentifully stated and shown throughout these forums, and what also happened to myself, which has been testified throughout these forums. Yet none of you believe that testimony just as you do not believe the Testimony of Yeshua or Paul his servant:

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 KJV
1. It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up (GSN#726 harpazo) to the third heaven.
3. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4. How that he was caught up (GSN#726 harpazo) into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


Original Strong's Ref. #726
Romanized  harpazo
Pronounced har-pad'-zo
from a derivative of GSN0138; to sieze (in various applications):
KJV--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (GSN#726 harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Daq what did I say that was any different then what you just said?

[Lehigh]

Literal translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

"For the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

afterwards we who are living, who are remaining over, shall be caught away to join them (NEB) through the clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be."

TO ALL,

There are many who erroneously who think that Paul taught that the the living saints in this passage will be caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised. This cannot be possible because he said that the living saints are caught away "afterwards."

So why do so many christians think that the living saints are caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised? There are two reasons:

1. Because most translations wrongly render the Greek hama in English as "together with" giving the impression that the living saints are caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised.

2. Because they wrongly think that the Greek hama means "at the same time."

It is true that hama may mean "at the same time" but only when used as a particle. When it is used as an adverb it denotes simple association by joining without any reference to simultaneousness (see Strong's# 260).

Paul used hama to translate the Hebrew yachad which means "to become united." Yachad has no reference to simultaneousness at all.

Psalm 14:3:

"They have all turned aside,
They have together [yachad] become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one."


Romans 3:12:

"They have all turned aside;
They have together [hama] become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one."

David was speaking about the fool of his day who had become corrupt because he said "there is no God." Paul applied it to the Jew and the Gentile in his time who had become unprofitable. The sinner of Paul's time did not become decadent simultaneously with the fool in David's day. Though they had become decadent "together" it was not at the same time. They became decadent "together" in the sense that they became united or joined to each other in their decadence.

This is what Paul meant in 1 Thessalonians 4. He meant that we each will be caught away individually to join the resurrected saints in heaven but each in our own succession of time. When I die I will be caught away to join the resurrected saints. The next thing I know I will be in my body from heaven which the resurrected saints now have (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5). My earthly body will have no part in my being caught away. When Raggthyme's time comes she will be caught away to join the resurrected saints and the next thing she will know is that she will be in her body from heaven. The same is true of each of us individually.

We will each be caught away individually in our own succession of time and not at the same time. Our earthly bodies will NOT have a part in it at all. There will be no mass disappearances of people's bodies. Each of us will be caught away to join the resurrected saints in our body from heaven. Our loved ones will take care of the body we leave behind.

thinker

I concur.  (and am not still waiting for the 7th trumpet either!) It was done.

[thethinker]

Literal translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:

"For the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

afterwards we who are living, who are remaining over, shall be caught away to join them (NEB) through the clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be."

TO ALL,

There are many who erroneously who think that Paul taught that the the living saints in this passage will be caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised. This cannot be possible because he said that the living saints are caught away "afterwards."

So why do so many christians think that the living saints are caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised? There are two reasons:

1. Because most translations wrongly render the Greek hama in English as "together with" giving the impression that the living saints are caught away simultaneously with the dead after they are raised.

2. Because they wrongly think that the Greek hama means "at the same time."

It is true that hama may mean "at the same time" but only when used as a particle. When it is used as an adverb it denotes simple association by joining without any reference to simultaneousness (see Strong's# 260).

Paul used hama to translate the Hebrew yachad which means "to become united." Yachad has no reference to simultaneousness at all.

Psalm 14:3:

"They have all turned aside,
They have together [yachad] become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one."


Romans 3:12:

"They have all turned aside;
They have together [hama] become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one."

David was speaking about the fool of his day who had become corrupt because he said "there is no God." Paul applied it to the Jew and the Gentile in his time who had become unprofitable. The sinner of Paul's time did not become decadent simultaneously with the fool in David's day. Though they had become decadent "together" it was not at the same time. They became decadent "together" in the sense that they became united or joined to each other in their decadence.

This is what Paul meant in 1 Thessalonians 4. He meant that we each will be caught away individually to join the resurrected saints in heaven but each in our own succession of time. When I die I will be caught away to join the resurrected saints. The next thing I know I will be in my body from heaven which the resurrected saints now have (2 Cor. 4:16-5:5). My earthly body will have no part in my being caught away. When Raggthyme's time comes she will be caught away to join the resurrected saints and the next thing she will know is that she will be in her body from heaven. The same is true of each of us individually.

We will each be caught away individually in our own succession of time and not at the same time. Our earthly bodies will NOT have a part in it at all. There will be no mass disappearances of people's bodies. Each of us will be caught away to join the resurrected saints in our body from heaven. Our loved ones will take care of the body we leave behind.

thinker

I concur.  (and am not still waiting for the 7th trumpet either!) It was done.

Good to see you posting again Lehigh. Manna!

thinker

[daq]

We are caught away individually is correct, when I die poof I'm gone, when you die phizzle your gone. How about them apples. But when the rapture takes place everyone will be caught away at the same time. Wooooosh!      

The Scripture supports what has been plentifully stated and shown throughout these forums, and what also happened to myself, which has been testified throughout these forums. Yet none of you believe that testimony just as you do not believe the Testimony of Yeshua or Paul his servant:

2 Corinthians 12:1-4 KJV
1. It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up (GSN#726 harpazo) to the third heaven.
3. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4. How that he was caught up (GSN#726 harpazo) into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


Original Strong's Ref. #726
Romanized  harpazo
Pronounced har-pad'-zo
from a derivative of GSN0138; to sieze (in various applications):
KJV--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (GSN#726 harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Daq what did I say that was any different then what you just said?

Nothing personal fenton, (surely Christ is working in you brother). Look closer at the passage you have re-quoted from 2Cor.12:1-4 and you might just see two men, two anthropon, even "two witnesses" and yet one of them was still the "old man" Saul. Surely Saul was caught up, and surely Paul was caught up; and in that night they two were in one bed, they two were out in the field: one was taken-received up near, and the other was aphiemi-sent away, even sent away into destruction. And just exactly where did this occur for SauloPaulo? "Wheresoever the carcass is; there will the eagles be gathered together." And thereafter that fateful night, wherein he surely did overcome, then was PAUL ever with the Great King: even from that great day of Atonement forward. And that very day of Atonement, (which no man knows but the Father) with the sprinkling of the conscience and heart in the holy Spirit-Blood of the New Covenant; that great day of Atonement was the ending of time for him, even the seventh trumpet, even the consummation of the aionos-age. Yet each in his appointed time; for it is appointed unto anthropon-men, (the soul) once to die, and after this the decision, and none shall be alone in his appointed times. Thereafter was Paul a new creation and outside of time: Eternal Shabbat, even The Rest, even The Way; raised up in Christ to finish running his own race. And none of this has anything to do with any "physical death" because the flesh profits nothing according to the Doctrine of Yeshua. Physical death is not even recognized in the New Testament Scripture concerning the saints:

If one is IN CHRIST then that one lives.
If one is truly alive IN CHRIST then he cannot die anymore ...

John 11:26 KJV
25. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

When Saul died then Paul was born a son into the Kingdom and he lives.
Afterwards he finished running the race, going to Rome; a slave of Christ ...

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

Phillipians 1:22-23) Paul ponders staying on earth alive OR to die and be with Christ.

2 thess) Paul tells all believers to rest with HIM till Christ comes
(Rest@Heb 4:1-11) TILL Christ comes...... REVEALED from HEAVEN (Rev 6:14-17)


I SAY:
 
that Paul died and SLEPT until Christ comes.
To Paul, it's as if he died and here comes Jesus.


Try this your way:

Paul died and went to heaven
Paul then tells EVERY BELIEVER to wait (with THEM) till Christ comes.

See how it only works one way......


Add to that Matt 26:64 which tells us the NEXT time we see Christ will be at the right hand of the father and COMING ON THE CLOUDS....

Here's that time:

Rev 6:14-17


We know all eyes see him coming on clouds (rev1:7)
this is it matt 26:64  Rev 6:14-16

both the dead and living see Christ come and so this is ALL men Caiaphas and Paul included!

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

2 COR 12:1-4

2. the man Paul knows in Christ is PAUL when over 14 years before this writing he was blinded by Christ on the road to demascus.

Paul got his knowledge from the holy spirit NOT the disciples...

That's why in verse 5 he says he will glory of such a one (Jesus) but of himself he won't get a big head (cause no man taught him so it's as if he learned by being different (better)
but if he gloried, he would be a fool

verse 7 tells us of the revelations he recieved and now teaches.


The part about one in a field or bed.

Matt 24:40-44 is about the rapture and showing us that were to be ready (abide in Christ till death or rapture.

Some believers will be left because they wernt ready...

This is about BOTH the living and dead.... As all eyes see the rapture

1. This shows us some believers will not see Eternal life because they wernt ready.


This is a problem for those who teach and believe OSAS,

If you fall away, you aren't watching (ready) if you died and were not watching (abiding in Christ at death - Rev 2:10) you will be the one left in bed or the 5 unwise virgins or lukes good servant turned bad....

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

Dan 12:1-2 tells us that some will wake to life and some to shame

all eyes see Christ come.....

The verse that says:

if God didn't shorten the days for the Elects sake, no flesh would be saved (matt 24:22. Mark 13:20)
Dan 11:43) (the Antichrist has already battled Islam (GOG) with Egypt taken, the Libyans and Ethiopians chase after the Antichrist (towards Armageddon field)
11:44) But movements out of the EAST (china) and NORTH (Russia) bring trouble.
11:45) and the Antichrist settles where? Right in the battle field of Armageddon.
12:1) and at THAT TIME... what time? The time that all these armies are going to meet for armaggeddon.
12:2) the RAPTURE happens - this is God saving us from the Temptations that will come upon the whole world - also this is where God talks of (days are shorten for elects sake) because Armageddon is going to be starting up and this mixed with Gods wrath IS the temptation that the world will face.. 

[daq]

Phillipians 1:22-23) Paul ponders staying on earth alive OR to die and be with Christ.

2 thess) Paul tells all believers to rest with HIM till Christ comes
(Rest@Heb 4:1-11) TILL Christ comes...... REVEALED from HEAVEN (Rev 6:14-17)


I SAY:
 
that Paul died and SLEPT until Christ comes.
To Paul, it's as if he died and here comes Jesus.


Try this your way:

Paul died and went to heaven
Paul then tells EVERY BELIEVER to wait (with THEM) till Christ comes.

See how it only works one way......


Add to that Matt 26:64 which tells us the NEXT time we see Christ will be at the right hand of the father and COMING ON THE CLOUDS....

Here's that time:

Rev 6:14-17


We know all eyes see him coming on clouds (rev1:7)
this is it matt 26:64  Rev 6:14-16

both the dead and living see Christ come and so this is ALL men Caiaphas and Paul included!

2 COR 12:1-4

2. the man Paul knows in Christ is PAUL when over 14 years before this writing he was blinded by Christ on the road to demascus.

Paul got his knowledge from the holy spirit NOT the disciples...

That's why in verse 5 he says he will glory of such a one (Jesus) but of himself he won't get a big head (cause no man taught him so it's as if he learned by being different (better)
but if he gloried, he would be a fool

verse 7 tells us of the revelations he recieved and now teaches.


The part about one in a field or bed.

Matt 24:40-44 is about the rapture and showing us that were to be ready (abide in Christ till death or rapture.

Some believers will be left because they wernt ready...

This is about BOTH the living and dead.... As all eyes see the rapture

1. This shows us some believers will not see Eternal life because they wernt ready.


This is a problem for those who teach and believe OSAS,

If you fall away, you aren't watching (ready) if you died and were not watching (abiding in Christ at death - Rev 2:10) you will be the one left in bed or the 5 unwise virgins or lukes good servant turned bad....

Dan 12:1-2 tells us that some will wake to life and some to shame

all eyes see Christ come.....

The verse that says:

if God didn't shorten the days for the Elects sake, no flesh would be saved (matt 24:22. Mark 13:20)
Dan 11:43) (the Antichrist has already battled Islam (GOG) with Egypt taken, the Libyans and Ethiopians chase after the Antichrist (towards Armageddon field)
11:44) But movements out of the EAST (china) and NORTH (Russia) bring trouble.
11:45) and the Antichrist settles where? Right in the battle field of Armageddon.
12:1) and at THAT TIME... what time? The time that all these armies are going to meet for armaggeddon.
12:2) the RAPTURE happens - this is God saving us from the Temptations that will come upon the whole world - also this is where God talks of (days are shorten for elects sake) because Armageddon is going to be starting up and this mixed with Gods wrath IS the temptation that the world will face.. 

Why should anyone want anything to do with a blasphemer running around calling other believers satanists, occultists, and teachers of the doctrines of devils? Your heart and mind are defiled by your own words, from your own mouth; blaspheming the holy Spirit which dwells in and amongst the people of YHWH all around you here: even your conscience appears to be seared with a hot iron; and now you proceed to fill another thread with the multitude of your own useless bungling of words in another overt attempt to get everyone to agree with YOU over and above the Scriptures. Do you not know that YHWH is all around you? "Behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him!" Your very breath is defiling the air of his Wind.

Proverbs 10:17-21 KJV
17. He is in the way of life that keepeth instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth.
18. He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.
19. In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.
20. The tongue of the just is as choice silver: the heart of the wicked is little worth.
21. The lips of the righteous feed many: but fools die for want of wisdom.

In addition you already have an entire thread concerning this topic where you have ample time and space to billow out your thick black clouds. Is this not the name of your most recent thread:

"Are the dead in heaven NOW?" by "KNOWLEDGE BOMB"

How can you not perceive that the very question itself is buffoonery?
It is because you do not believe the Testimony of Yeshua:

Mark 12:26-27 KJV
26. And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27. He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

There are no true believers who are spiritually dead. If you love your flesh so much that you believe you will remain with your carcass when it dies, watching it rot as it gets eaten of worms, then perhaps you will get your just reward in that day. However, be aware, (since you appear not to know any Scripture whatsoever) that there is indeed a place where their worm does not die:

Mark 9:41-48 KJV
41. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
42. And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48. Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

Daq.... There's is a difference between a believer who believes falsely and a believer who teaches falsely.... You do the latter....though you may not believe it as such, I cannot decide based on what you think.... My job is to be ready in season and out....

If you don't wish to listen that's fine, others can decide themselfs....

Can you show me what I have wrong by taking the stuff I SAID?

If you can't then maybe you should listen.


Now on to why your a false teacher. On the forum supplied profile page you have a web site link to Elias Prophecy index.... This site is a FALSE TEACHING site.  God holds you personally responsible for any errors this site may have.... Anyone who takes DAQ's "word" for it and goes there and then Believes the lies, you are guilty of it also... You promote the site FREELY!

Among other lies. It teaches Christ has come, show me where I'm wrong BY using the scripture in Phillpians/2 thess post?......   You can't correct it can you and it's different than that site..

This site also uses the DEMONIC book of ENOCH which is unbiblical and NO christian should view this site or you will simply mix truth with the bible and be in error....

You teach falsley DAQ..... As I said once before... I can see where all the people I disagree with gets their beliefs but with you it's like another world....

Believe or not... You read demonic teachings and it shows in your beliefs that christ has already came..

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

DAQ, here you go..... Christ HASNT COME YET


Phillipians 1:22-23) Paul ponders staying on earth alive OR to die and be with Christ.

2 thess) Paul tells all believers to rest with HIM till Christ comes
(Rest@Heb 4:1-11) TILL Christ comes...... REVEALED from HEAVEN (Rev 6:14-17)


I SAY:
 
that Paul died and SLEPT until Christ comes.
To Paul, it's as if he died and here comes Jesus.


Try this your way:

Paul died and went to heaven
Paul then tells EVERY BELIEVER to wait (with THEM) till Christ comes.

See how it only works one way......


Add to that Matt 26:64 which tells us the NEXT time we see Christ will be at the right hand of the father and COMING ON THE CLOUDS....

Here's that time:

Rev 6:14-17


We know all eyes see him coming on clouds (rev1:7)
this is it matt 26:64  Rev 6:14-16

both the dead and living see Christ come and so this is ALL men Caiaphas and Paul included!

[daq]

Daq.... There's is a difference between a believer who believes falsely and a believer who teaches falsely.... You do the latter....though you may not believe it as such, I cannot decide based on what you think.... My job is to be ready in season and out....

If you don't wish to listen that's fine, others can decide themselfs....

Can you show me what I have wrong by taking the stuff I SAID?

If you can't then maybe you should listen.


Now on to why your a false teacher. On the forum supplied profile page you have a web site link to Elias Prophecy index.... This site is a FALSE TEACHING site.  God holds you personally responsible for any errors this site may have.... Anyone who takes DAQ's "word" for it and goes there and then Believes the lies, you are guilty of it also... You promote the site FREELY!

Among other lies. It teaches Christ has come, show me where I'm wrong BY using the scripture in Phillpians/2 thess post?......   You can't correct it can you and it's different than that site..

This site also uses the DEMONIC book of ENOCH which is unbiblical and NO christian should view this site or you will simply mix truth with the bible and be in error....

You teach falsley DAQ..... As I said once before... I can see where all the people I disagree with gets their beliefs but with you it's like another world....

Believe or not... You read demonic teachings and it shows in your beliefs that christ has already came..

Matthew 10:24-28 KJV
24. The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26. Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 12:31-37 KJV
31. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
33. Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Mark 3:28-30 KJV
28. Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29. But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
30. Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

1 John 5:16 KJV
16. If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

[daq]

Among other lies. It teaches Christ has come

You still have no clue what is being said here or there. Please quote the place where I have stated that Yeshua already returned for YOU or anyone else? That is not anything for me to decide for anyone else. If you understood what was being said then you would understand that the Parousia of Christ which I believe according to the Scripture is unto EACH IN HIS APPOINTED TIME even as Paul according to his Gospel: in his own appointed time. How many times does such a thing need to be stated before a wise one such as yourself will even believe that I said it? Whether you believe it to be true or not how can you not at least understand that this is what has been said over, and over, and over? The only alternative is that not only are you a false witness, a false accuser of the brethren, and a blasphemer of the Holy Ghost, but also an intentional liar who does such things for personal gain and the satisfaction of killing his perceived "enemies" which turn out to be other believers in this forum.

Revelation 21:8 KJV
8. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

 You say I'm wrong....

You have nothing to back it up about Jesus Christ already coming for his church...

Show me were I'm wrong and then we'll listen to you.


Dan 12:1-2 tells us that some will wake to life and some to shame

all eyes see Christ come.....

The verse that says:

if God didn't shorten the days for the Elects sake, no flesh would be saved (matt 24:22. Mark 13:20)
Dan 11:43) (the Antichrist has already battled Islam (GOG) with Egypt taken, the Libyans and Ethiopians chase after the Antichrist (towards Armageddon field)
11:44) But movements out of the EAST (china) and NORTH (Russia) bring trouble.
11:45) and the Antichrist settles where? Right in the battle field of Armageddon.
12:1) and at THAT TIME... what time? The time that all these armies are going to meet for armaggeddon.
12:2) the RAPTURE happens - this is God saving us from the Temptations that will come upon the whole world - also this is where God talks of (days are shorten for elects sake) because Armageddon is going to be starting up and this mixed with Gods wrath IS the temptation that the world will face.. 
12:3 those who are wise.....
12:4 Daniel shut this (verses 11:20 -12:13) TILL THE TIME OF THE END.

How does Daniel hide the end when it's written down and has for the most part been done before?

For one rememeber Satan has wanted to sit in the temple before but the restrainer was still as He is NOW still restraining.

Daniel hid it, or God hid it simply because Satan tried before with Antiochous V.

I will back this up in a Daniel/ Antichrist type post soon enough...

Let me ask you 2 questions Daq or anyone...If you would

In Daniel 8:8 who is this?
And in 8:9?

I'll say who I say it is.... And provide proof
8:8 Alexander the great
8:9 the roman Antichrist  

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

DAQ says:
While the 70AD date may be erroneous because it was rather 30AD, at the Pentecost concerning what is written in Acts 2, still the point made in the OP and here agian cannot be overstated! It proves that the Gospel is individual and to each in his appointed times. Thus when each believer comes to his own "seventh trumpet" a son is born into the kingdom, (those who overcome in their hour of trial).

THEN has that son born into the Kingdom fully JOINED the Family ~
END DAQ END


knowledge bomb replies:


oh ok you teach each believer goes when they die.... Which ISNT true, unless you can work you way around this?

Phillipians 1:22-23) Paul ponders staying on earth alive OR to die and be with Christ.

2 thess) Paul tells all believers to rest with HIM till Christ comes
(Rest@Heb 4:1-11) TILL Christ comes...... REVEALED from HEAVEN (Rev 6:14-17)


I SAY:
 
that Paul died and SLEPT until Christ comes.
To Paul, it's as if he died and here comes Jesus.


Try this your way:

Paul died and went to heaven
Paul then tells EVERY BELIEVER to wait (with THEM) till Christ comes.

See how it only works one way......


Add to that Matt 26:64 which tells us the NEXT time we see Christ will be at the right hand of the father and COMING ON THE CLOUDS....

Here's that time:

Rev 6:14-17


We know all eyes see him coming on clouds (rev1:7)
this is it matt 26:64  Rev 6:14-16

both the dead and living see Christ come and so this is ALL men Caiaphas and Paul included!


Daq: I guess then you teach that the OT saints are in heaven? You correct (thethinker) I think, he said 70ad and you say 30ad so you agree or just correcting his dating?

[KNOWLEDGE BOMB]

Daq on the web site from your page under the heading:
olivet - zeytiym It states the following:

that Yeshua broke down the "middle wall of partition" between the two, (the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision) making one "New Man" by the offering of his body upon the Cross, (Ephesians 2) and thus making possible the grafting in of the Gentiles into the fold and

END END

this is the first thing I've read and it's wrong!
Christ offering his body on the cross isn't why the Gentiles were grafted in.

Heb 4:11 were told enter Gods rest lest ANY man (believers only) FALL after the same EXAMPLE of unblief...

The example of unbelief is the israelites during the exodus who wondered for 40 yrs because of unbelief.

Romans 11:19 tells us we will say: they were broken off, That I might be GRAFTED IN....
11:20 because of unbelief they were broken off.


So because of their unbelief we were grafted in.... He teaches a mix of stuff in the above quote...

V23 shows the tribulation chance for the Israelites to accept Christ IN BELIEF this time...

This is when the 144,000 are sealed and offer salvation.