Author Topic: Who was to Stand on the Mt. of Olives? Jehovah or Jesus?  (Read 4675 times)

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thethinker

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Who was to Stand on the Mt. of Olives? Jehovah or Jesus?
« on: January 05, 2012, 03:01:29 PM »
To My Preterist Friends,

The new testament universally says that the coming of Christ would be to the sky and NOT to the earth. Jesus said that His generation would see the sign of his coming "in the sky" (Matt. 24:30). Paul said that the Lord would descend from heaven and that those who were living and abiding would be "caught up" to meet Him "in the clouds." Revelation 14:15-16 says that He would judge sitting "on a cloud."

These statements explicitly deny that Jesus was to come back to the earth. His destination was the sky and NOT the earth. There is not one new testament scripture which says that Jesus was to return to the earth. But there is one statement in the old testament which the Futurists misapply apply to Jesus. It says that Jehovah would come and fight and that His feet would stand on the Mt. of Olives. The Futurists erroneously conclude from this that Jesus was to come back all the way to the earth.

It says that Jehovah and NOT Jesus would stand on the Mt. of Olives. In the immediate context Jehovah is a separate person from Jesus.  In 13:7 Jehovah called Jesus "My Shepherd." The distinction between Jehovah and Jesus is maintained throughout the book of Zechariah.

The Angel of Jehovah (Jesus) speaks to Jehovah: "And the Angel of Jehovah (Jesus) answered Jehovah and said" (1:12).

The Angel of Jehovah (Jesus) distinguishes Himself from Jehovah: "And the Angel of Jehovah (Jesus) began to bear witness to Joshua, saying, 'Jehovah of armies has said'" (3:6).

Jehovah distinguishes Himself from Jesus: "And I (Jehovah) will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look to Him (Jesus) whom they have pierced, they shall mourn" (12:10).

[Note: The rendering "they shall look to Me whom they have pierced" is erroneous translation. The RSV says, "they shall look to Him whom they have pierced distinguishing Jehovah from Jesus. This agrees with John 19:37 which says "Him."]

and,

"Awake O sword, against My Shepherd, against the Man who is my companion, says Jehovah of hosts" (13:7).

[There is no evidence that the person of Jehovah becomes the person of Jesus from 13:7-14:4. The immediate context requires that Jehovah and NOT Jesus would stand on the Mt. of Olives.]

There are even more examples from Zechariah which show that Jehovah and Jesus are separate persons in Zechariah. Therefore, the Futurists have NO PROOF FROM ZECHARIAH that Jesus would return to earth. It is Jehovah who would stand on the Mt. of Olives as His feet stood on Mt. Sinai. The Futurists must look elsewhere to find support for their theory.

Jesus is indeed called Jehovah in the scripture. But to apply the name Jehovah to Him all the time is a denial of the Trinity. The context must determine it for us. Example: Isaiah said that it "pleased Jehovah to bruise Him" (Jesus). Jehovah and Jesus are clearly separate persons in Isaiah's statement. And they are clearly separate persons in Zechariah 13:7-14:4.

thinker

larry2

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Re: Who was to Stand on the Mt. of Olives? Jehovah or Jesus?
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2012, 03:20:06 PM »

Who is our Savior to you?  Thanks.

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Re: Who was to Stand on the Mt. of Olives? Jehovah or Jesus?
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2012, 06:26:28 PM »
Response to the OP:

Jesus Christ will be the one to stand on and split the Mount of Olives

He is the Lord .... Jesus is both God and human and he has existed since the beginning

He has now been revealed for who He is

When one reads the O.T. visions of the Bible prophets and the "Lord" speaks .... it is Jesus Christ

..... and the same is the Author of all scripture from Genesis to Revelation
2Peter
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts

Offline Godlovejoy

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Re: Who was to Stand on the Mt. of Olives? Jehovah or Jesus?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2012, 08:21:28 AM »
1 Thess. 4:15-17,

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep [those who have died]. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up [Greek: harpazo] together with them in the clouds to meet [Greek: apantesis] the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

This is an except from Stephen Jones, God's Kingdom Ministries, http://gods-kingdom-ministries.org/COLDFUSION/Chapter.cfm?CID=232 

Getting back to Paul's statement in 1 Thess. 4:15-17, he tells us that we will "meet" the Lord in the air. The Greek word used is apantesis, which means "to meet and return with (as an escort)." This Greek word is used four times in the New Testament. It is used in Matt. 25:1 and 6, where the arrival of the Bridegroom was announced and the ten virgins were told to go out "to meet" Him.

The elect who are the chosen of all nations, which are symbolically the 144,000, will resurrect, both living and already dead in the first resurrection.  Then, in this excerpt by Stephen Jones.................

The truth of the matter, as I see it, is this: Christ is coming to rule His Kingdom, and we will go out to meet Him in some way to escort Him to the earth. The overcomers will then rule with Him as priests (Rev. 20:6). The purpose of the first resurrection is to raise those overcomers from past generations who qualified to rule with Him. Their resurrection will be the first event on the feast-day calendar, th e Feast of Trumpets.

This event will spark a world-wide repentance ("Days of Awe") leading to the Day of Atonement (repentance) on the tenth day from the resurrection. Five days later the living overcomers will come into immortality on the first day of Tabernacles. After seven days of cleansing, according to the law, the Sons of God will then be presented to the Father on the eighth day of Tabernacles.



These 144,000 that will be presented to the Father will then be taken with Jesus to the Mount of Olives as shown in Rev Chap 14. and this will be the time of the harvest.  The Angels are the reapers.  Just like the Passover, when the angel of death took lives during the plagues in Egypt.  So, then, one will be taken and one will be left, as in the days of Noah.  The one's taken were the ungodly in the flood.  The righteous remained.

Luke 17: 26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Some of you may be interested to read "The Rapture in The Light of Tabernacles"  by Stephen Jones, it's truth.  Begins here http://gods-kingdom-ministries.org/COLDFUSION/booklet.cfm?PID=112
 
Godlovejoy ::smile::



thethinker

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Re: Who was to Stand on the Mt. of Olives? Jehovah or Jesus?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2012, 08:53:01 AM »

Who is our Savior to you?  Thanks.


No questions will be answered until you first deal with the immediate context of from 13:7-14:4. Jehovah and His Shepherd (Jesus) are two separate persons in 13:7. Then in 14:4 we see that Jehovah was to stand on the Mt. of Olives. It says nothing about the Shepherd (Jesus) standing on the Mt. of Olives.

The scripture says that Jehovah came to Sinai and that the people sat at His "feet" to hear the law. I don't see anyone demanding that Jehovah physically came to Sinai.

Deal with my points and earn my reply to your question.

thanks,

thinker


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Re: Who was to Stand on the Mt. of Olives? Jehovah or Jesus?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2012, 08:53:01 AM »



Lehigh

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Re: Who was to Stand on the Mt. of Olives? Jehovah or Jesus?
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2012, 09:08:29 AM »
the thinker,

Although technically you are correct (according to Zech.14:1-5 verse) God is is showing His Dominion and fulfilling the way of the New Covenant THROUGH the Gospel of Christ, It's not so important to me to distinguish between Father and Son in the passage, but you are correct.  And since it is prophetic symbolism (as in the O.T. prophets) God does not have FEET! But it signifies His Dominion on His mountains!
 It's the literal approach that is in error, imo.  We Preterists know that Jesus never sets foot on the earth again anyway and that when "he descended from heaven with a shout" it is symbolism by Paul as to acknowledge the "sign of His Coming" in judgment - AND for rewarding the faithful saints. (that present remnant of Israel- the 144,000, raising the dead patriarchs of Israel- the 12 tribes of Jacob , and rewarding/delivering the kingdom of God to all the then present and thereafter saints)
From Preterist Q&A:


    "And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. And you will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!" (Zech. 14:4-5)

If one begins with the presupposition that the Parousia is yet future and that it is going to be a literal descent and landing of Jesus in the flesh, then one would be tempted to interpret this prophecy as referring to a literal splitting of the literal Mount of Olives. (After all, Jesus already literally stood on the Mount of Olives, so why should He not do it again at His Second Coming?)

While this approach to Zech. 14:4-5 seems credible at first, there are problems with it even in a futuristic framework --problems that have caused most futurist interpreters throughout the ages to interpret the prophecy symbolically.

First, the immediate context mentions events that took place in the first century. Most notable is the prophecy of the "living water" (Zech. 14:8). A comparison of Jn. 7:38-39 and Acts 2:17-21 confirms that the coming of the "living water" which would flow out from Jerusalem was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost.

Since verse 8 was fulfilled at Pentecost, a futuristic interpretation of verses 3-7 would force us to impose a 2,000-year "leap" or "gap" upon Zechariah 14 --from the yet future Second Coming in verses 3-7, back to the day of Pentecost 2,000 years ago in verse 8, forward to a yet future "millennial reign" in verse 9.

(Such exegetical "ping ponging" through the aeons may be acceptable to one who clings to a dispensationalist framework, but it is offensive to any who would reverently let God's Word say what it says.)

Second, there is no other prophecy in Scripture that speaks of the "landing" of Jesus, or the resulting split of the Mount of Olives. If we interpret this prophecy literally, we turn it into a "stand alone" prophecy with no parallel in Scripture. We make it a weak proof text.

A literalistic approach to Zech. 14:4-5 is contextually awkward and exegetically wanting, but a symbolic approach finds that Scripture illumines the prophecy:

    "...so will the Lord of hosts come down to wage war on Mount Zion and on its hill'" (Isa. 31:4).

    "For behold, the Lord is coming forth from His place. He will come down and tread on the high places of the earth. The mountains will melt under Him, and the valleys will be split, like wax before the fire, like water poured down a steep place." (Micah 1:3-4)

    "He stood and surveyed the earth; He looked and startled the nations. Yes, the perpetual mountains were shattered, the ancient hills collapsed. His ways are everlasting." (Hab. 3:6)

These Scriptures, and their contexts, reveal that the prophetic image of God standing on a mountain, or on mountains, and causing it to split or shatter or melt under Him is a symbol of God waging war against His enemies and delivering His saints.

Note that in Zech. 14:4-5, a mountain became a valley of salvation; and what were once valleys became mountains. This is virtually the same metaphor that was used by Isaiah, Matthew and Luke:

    "...Make ready the way of the Lord. Make His paths straight. Every valley shall be filled up, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall become straight, and the rough roads smooth; and all flesh shall see the salvation of God." (Isa. 40:3-4; Matt. 3:3; Lk. 3:4-5)

According to this prophecy, whatever stood in the Church's way was going to be removed. Instead of a rough and winding highway over a mountain range (the wearying burden of the corrupted Jewish leadership), the Church would be given a straight and smooth road (the easy yoke of Christ). The Way of escape and salvation would overcome all that opposed It.

So in Zech. 14:4-5, the obstacle that opposed the Church would be shattered and overcome by a great valley that would extend to the other side of the obstacle. This is why Zechariah mentioned "the Mount of Olives" by name. That mountain stood in front of the City of Jerusalem, in the path of any who would flee directly to the East away from the City. The Mount of Olives thus served as a physical symbol of a spiritual obstacle or barrier, because of its location in front of Jerusalem.

As Zechariah's obstacle was split and made into a way of salvation, so through Christ Jesus was the "veil" of condemnation torn in two and replaced with the Way of salvation for all men. (Matt. 27:51; Heb. 9:8; 10:19-20) So too was the barrier of "the dividing wall" torn down and replaced with the peace of Christ in all nations. (Eph. 2:14-15) And so too was the destroying "mountain" of Babylon (the Jerusalem of slavery) burned up, cast into the sea, and replaced with the freedom of the glory of the children of God. (Jer. 51:25; Matt. 21:21; Mk. 11:23; Rev. 8:8)

Zech. 14:4-5 is a prophecy of Gospel salvation. Before God destroyed His enemies in A.D. 70, He removed the barrier between His elect and their salvation. He provided a Way of escape and of salvation for His Church. That "Way" was Christ, His Word, His Gospel. At the sound of His Gospel-Voice, His disciples fled from the corruption of the world and from the wrath of God (Matt. 3:7; Lk. 3:7; 21:36; Rom. 2:3; Heb. 2:3; 6:18; 12:25; II Peter 1:4; 2:20; Rev. 12:6; 18:4). Abiding in His Word, they were hid under the refuge of the shadow of His Wings, in the valley of His Mountains. (Zech. 14:5)


P.S.- Oh, I see it's the Baltimore Ravens ICON.  I was wondering........... ::smile::


larry2

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Re: Who was to Stand on the Mt. of Olives? Jehovah or Jesus?
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2012, 09:09:44 AM »


Who is our Savior to you?  Thanks.



No questions will be answered until you first deal with the immediate context of from 13:7-14:4. Jehovah and His Shepherd (Jesus) are two separate persons in 13:7. Then in 14:4 we see that Jehovah was to stand on the Mt. of Olives. It says nothing about the Shepherd (Jesus) standing on the Mt. of Olives.


That's fine, as I didn't think you knew Who Jesus is anyway after reading some of your Preterist views. Jesus is Jehovah, but I'm bailing on this thread.

thethinker

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Re: Who was to Stand on the Mt. of Olives? Jehovah or Jesus?
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2012, 09:18:51 AM »
Godlovejoy wrote:
Quote
Getting back to Paul's statement in 1 Thess. 4:15-17, he tells us that we will "meet" the Lord in the air. The Greek word used is apantesis, which means "to meet and return with (as an escort)." This Greek word is used four times in the New Testament. It is used in Matt. 25:1 and 6, where the arrival of the Bridegroom was announced and the ten virgins were told to go out "to meet" Him.


The word "apantesis" does NOT mean "to meet and return with escort." The example you gave from Matthew 25:1,6 does NOT prove your theory. Verse 10 CLEARLY says that the virgins proceeded with the Bridegroom to the wedding. They did NOT return from whence they came.

Your source did a hatchet job on the scriptures!

thinker




Offline Godlovejoy

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Re: Who was to Stand on the Mt. of Olives? Jehovah or Jesus?
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2012, 09:45:24 AM »
This was a prophecy of jesus but the name Jesus was not being used yet until He was born.  But He is called many names, Jesus is the good Shephard, and He is the Lamb of God.   He is a part of God.  God and Jesus are one in the same as spoken by Jesus in John.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

30 I and [my] Father are one.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.  22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

In Zech 14:3 It says the Lord, which is the same as saying Jesus.  But Jesus was not born and not named yet.  God and the many names of Jesus (Shephard, Lamb, Messiah, Prince of Peace) are used interchangeably with the Lord Jehovah.  Jesus is also called Lord.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


What point are you trying to make?

Godlovejoy ::smile::

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Re: Who was to Stand on the Mt. of Olives? Jehovah or Jesus?
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2012, 09:46:34 AM »
Larry

The preterist is not qualified to deal with this issue in any way since they think that all of Zechariah 14 has been fulfilled

Now you have discovered that the preterist doesn't really know and or denies who Jesus Christ is .... this totally disqualifies any commentary from preterism for biblical interpretation of any subject

The action that the Lord will take to make way for a believing remnant part of Israel to protect them is described as by the "touching" of His feet ..... this could also be said "by His hand" .... just a way to describe His action

The mount of Olives will actually split creating a rift valley in which the remnant is to flee from the beast and His armies .... and this "touching" by the Lord will occur at the middle of the 70th week decreed because those who flee will reside in the Jordanian wilderness for the second 1260 days of the period [Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

He will not be seen in this process by the earth dwellers at the time .... we see this because it is in the scripture and can know that it is true and we will see it because we will be immortal and observing the events of the 70th week from heaven

The Lord will not appear to the survivors of the tribulation period until the end of the battle of Armageddon .... the all mortals on the earth will see Him  
2Peter
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts

Offline Jaime

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Re: Who was to Stand on the Mt. of Olives? Jehovah or Jesus?
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2012, 09:52:49 AM »
What's this "EARN your response" business Thinker?  Me thinks you boasteth too much.
So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear. That there is no alternative way, so far discovered, of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by a free enterprise system. - Milton Friedman

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem. - Milton Friedman

thethinker

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Re: Who was to Stand on the Mt. of Olives? Jehovah or Jesus?
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2012, 09:54:16 AM »


Who is our Savior to you?  Thanks.




No questions will be answered until you first deal with the immediate context of from 13:7-14:4. Jehovah and His Shepherd (Jesus) are two separate persons in 13:7. Then in 14:4 we see that Jehovah was to stand on the Mt. of Olives. It says nothing about the Shepherd (Jesus) standing on the Mt. of Olives.



That's fine, as I didn't think you knew Who Jesus is anyway after reading some of your Preterist views. Jesus is Jehovah, but I'm bailing on this thread.


I said that Jesus was Jehovah at the end of the op. But He is distinct from Jehovah in Zechariah. You seem to deny the Trinity.

thinker


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Re: Who was to Stand on the Mt. of Olives? Jehovah or Jesus?
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2012, 09:57:49 AM »
Jehovah means the God of Israel.  In the old covenant, His chosen nation.  The new covenant is now all chosen of all nations through Jesus the Lamb of God.  They also have many names.  Such as the name Israel, also, Zion, also the elect, the Bride of Christ, the 5 Wise virgins, the 144,000, the two olive trees, ect.  

It is so like God to use many names.

Godlovejoy ::amen!::

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Re: Who was to Stand on the Mt. of Olives? Jehovah or Jesus?
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2012, 10:00:53 AM »
Thinker - this is from the OP.

First off Jehovah is a BAD transliteration of Yud Hay Vav Hay - the 4 letter unpronounced proper name of God. It would be off topic to go into why, but I will not use the term. I prefer Adonai (my Lord) or HaShem (the Name).

You are seeming to make a hard division between HaShem the Father and HaShem the Son.

While I will agree that there are certain times (especially in Genesis) where an "Angel of the Lord" appears to be God Himself, (bargaining with Abraham over Sodom, wrestling with Jacob) I have to disagree that every time the term is used it refers to what NT theologians call a "Christophany;" a pre-incarnate visit by Jesus to the Earth.

As to Zech 12.10, there is no consensus on whether it should be "me" or "him." Hebrew is not that clear in this case and scholarly translators disagree.

But your contention of a hard break between the Father and the Son is uncalled for.  Yud Hay Vav Hay can refer to the Father, the Son OR the Holy Spirit individually, or all 3 together.

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Re: Who was to Stand on the Mt. of Olives? Jehovah or Jesus?
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2012, 10:07:23 AM »
THinker,
You seem to think you are the authority on scripture.

Here is another resource with the same meaning.

1 Thessalonians 4
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet {Greek, apantesis} the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Dr. James McKeever, for one, has pointed out that the Greek word for meet in 1Thes.4:17 above is the word apantesis.

This word occurs only 4 times in the NT (see Strong's 529), and means to go out to meet an arriving person, and then TO TURN AROUND and ACCOMPANY THAT PERSON BACK TO WHERE WE CAME FROM.