Author Topic: YOU CAN’T BE A CONSISTENT PRETERIST UNLESS YOU’RE ALSO A CONDITIONALIST  (Read 354 times)

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Offline Larry H

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Greeting

This is my first post so here it goes.

 am in the process of reading an article by Chris Date who states on his website "Rethinking hall" " You can’t be a consistent preterist unless you’re also a conditionalist" Has anyone considered the idea be it PP or FP.   

<link removed as per forum rules>
« Last Edit: Thu Apr 18, 2019 - 17:47:23 by Alan »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Hi Larry H,

First of all, welcome to the forum.  I presume you are of the Preterist persuasion if you are posting here?  May our tribe increase, as they say. 

With a 7-year history to date of believing scripture as a Preterist, I too had to re-think my understanding of the topic of Hell and the traditional teaching of eternal torment.  I found that both OT and NT scriptures show us that the “Lake of Fire” or the “Furnace of Fire” was an experience localized in the city of Jerusalem in the AD 70 era only; an event that was used by God to “BURN UP the chaff” - not to extend the life and torment of the wicked or the Devil and his angels perpetually. 

To “perish” actually does mean to be obliterated after judgment; not to be preserved to suffer an eternal life of torture.  To me, this perishing of the wicked explains how we can still see the skeletal remains today of those who died prior to the AD70 PHYSICAL, biological resurrection of the dead at Christ’s PHYSICAL second coming back then. 

Anyone dying prior to AD70’s resurrection either perished from existence if they were the “chaff” - both body and soul - or if they were in Christ, they were given glorified, incorruptible bodies fitted to live in God’s presence in heaven.  So any current human remains dating prior to AD70 belong to those who were not given eternal life in that AD 70 resurrection at the Lord’s return.

I remember when I first became interested in seriously investigating this issue of Hell.  I asked our pastor if he could loan me a book on Hell if he had one in his collection.  He laughed; a rather odd response for a topic that is of such sober consequences in the traditional view.  That was enough to discourage me from asking him for assistance in my studies. 

Someone else gave me a pitiful, flimsy paperback on Hell, about 1/4” thick, with the traditional mindset presented - but no attempt to address any other perspective or opposing questions on the topic.  I finally gave up on asking those Christians of my acquaintance, and dug into the Bible itself. 

When one asks God for wisdom about something, He does not disappoint.  Conditional immortality is the inevitable conclusion, and perpetual torment of the wicked dead is debunked for the doctrinal error that it is. 

Larry H, if you’re interested in some of my rambling thoughts on the subject, I commented extensively in the post someone started called simply “Hell” at this link, starting at comment #23, I believe.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/hell-97842/

And I started the post in this Preterist forum called “Defining...the Second Death / Lake of Fire”, which is far from the typical opinion of what the Second Death / Lake of Fire is, but sticks closely to the history of the scripture regarding the First and Second Deaths of Jerusalem.

I also checked into your “Rethinking Hell” website with Chris Date’s posts.  He wrote one called “A Primer on Rev. 14:9-11”.  I wanted to see how he covered that text with its reference to fire and brimstone torment.  I agree with his take on it, but he didn’t expand on it as thoroughly as I did on another website (a Preterist one) where I have posted for about four years.  If you’re interested, send me a pm, and I’ll give you a link to that set of comments. Someone must have thought they had some merit, since that post stayed in the top ten for about a year and a half, I noticed.

Anyway, hope you hang around and keep posting - I’ll check into whatever material you have time to present. 


« Last Edit: Fri Apr 19, 2019 - 12:01:14 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Hi again Larry H,

Oops, looks as if the link took you to another post with the word “hell” in a lower case  letter instead.  Two different posts- similar theme.  Sorry about that, so I changed the link above to the one I intended in the first place:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/theology/hell-97842/

notreligus

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For those who want to know more about Conditionalism or Annihilationism  (as was covered at this forum before via a discussion of the doctrine of Edward Fudge, a former Church of Christ preacher)...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_conditionalism


Offline Larry H

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Hi 3 Res Thanks for the Welcome.

Your rambling is a breath of fresh air

I'm beginning  to consider the Hell concept is nothing more than a myth or fable, actually I'm 90 percent convinced. Since it's paradigm is hard to let go of .

If Hell is real why is it not mentioned in the sermons recorded by the Apostles, but is penned in the letters of  James and Peter. Or by some of the best know scholars like "William Barclay, John A.T. Robinson, Lightfoot, Westcott, F.W. Farrar, Marvin Vincent, etc". Are we not told by Paul's letter to Timothy to avoid Myth and fables.

Since the word Hell was not added in the NKJV and left out of newer translation of bible one cannot point  to the word Hell concept in the KJV  O.T  to prove it exists.

In your estimations you said it must be a first century Phenomenon, but what did Jesus mean or intended via the word Hell.
I took your advice and checked out the second intended link and seem to fly of the hand. So I would like to start a fresh one if it gets off the ground.

The word hell in the New Testament

Matthew 5:22 Matthew 5:29 Matthew 5:30 Matthew 10:28 Matthew 18:9 Matthew 23:15 Matthew 23:33 Mark 9:43 Mark 9:45 Mark 9:47 Luke 12:5 James 3:6 2 Peter 2:4

I will PM you as soon as I figure out how to do it.

Christian Forums and Message Board


Offline Larry H

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Hi 3 res


Did you receive my PM  ::announcment::

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Hi Larry H  - 

Yes, thank you for letting me know that message went through.  Will send you a response by pm, because I can type a response there faster than the texting I have to use to post online here...

Hmmm,  looks as if your inbox is full - I can't send a pm.  Maybe clear out a message or two, and it will go through.
« Last Edit: Mon Apr 22, 2019 - 17:03:12 by 3 Resurrections »

Offline Larry H

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Hi Larry H  - 

Yes, thank you for letting me know that message went through.  Will send you a response by pm, because I can type a response there faster than the texting I have to use to post online here...

Hmmm,  looks as if your inbox is full - I can't send a pm.  Maybe clear out a message or two, and it will go through.

How do I get into the inbox or outbox to clear it, since I don't believer they are full.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Hi Larry,

Since you’re a member who just recently joined, it hardly seems likely that your message box is already full.  If I was of a suspicious sort of mind, I would say that the Preterist forum has gremlins lurking on here, instigating mischief. ::pondering::

I’ve never emptied my inbox, but I suppose you can selectively delete items one at a time?

Offline Larry H

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Hi 3 Res

I guess I will have to go with the punch's  for a while 3 Res.  ::destroyingcomputer:: I don't see an inbox or out box to delete from, so now what do I do  rofl  O-Well thanks for the tip.  ::tippinghat::
 

Offline Rexenm

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I just thought of the scene in Harry Potter, where Dumbledore says, "Love, Harry..." It's like a secret society, within a secret society - but where does it end? I've heard it said, Jesus created love, by my proselytarian grandmother. I agree, but I don't totally agree.. ::angel::

Offline Larry H

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 Acts 1 what do you think

The real meaning of "in like manner," as that which qualifies His arrival, is missed in my opinion, WHEN IT IS INTERPRETED AS A REFERENCE TO THE OUTWARD PHYSICAL CIRCUMSTANCES OF HIS ASCENSION. Rather, the FOCUS IS ON THE PERSON – THIS SAME JESUS. HE IS THE RESURRECTED JESUS WHO NO LONGER IS OF THE AEON OF FLESH BUT WHO IS THE LORD AND CHRIST OF THE NEW AEON OF LIFE. He ascends totally ENVELOPED IN THE GLORY AND POWER OF GOD. Hence, this same Jesus will come; i.e., He will arrive "apart from sin" (Heb. 9:28), according to the very manner that "ye have seen him go into heaven." (The Cross and the Parousia (Warren, OH: Parkman Road Church of Christ, 1987), 495, n.92.)

When, therefore, the cross and Christ’s parousia are retained [held back] within the same eschaton, [final event of God's plan] they have a complementary [oposite ]rather than a counteractive [corrective] age-changing function that brings to completion GOD’S ETERNAL PURPOSE AS SET FORTH WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF "THE TWO COVENANTS" (Gal. 4:21-31). From this perspective, Christ’s parousia (which means PRESENCE OR ARRIVAL) IS TIED, NOT TO AN OUTWARD, PHYSICAL, EARTHLY APPEARANCE OF SOME SORT, BUT TO THE CONSUMMATED COMING OR ARRIVAL OF THE NEW COVENANT AEON IN THE END OF THE OLD AEON. His presence, therefore, is a COVENANTAL PRESENCE IN TERMS OF THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT, which is explanatory of Paul’s solitary AIM TO "WIN CHRIST, and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" (Phil. 3:8,9).

Galatians 4:21 Two Covenants (Genesis 21:8-21; Isaiah 54:1) Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?

23 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman.


23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,

24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar — 

25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children —

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Hell is a place in Norse mythology.  The Bible teaches about Hades and Gehenna; not Hell.

Gehenna was a literal place in Israel - it was the place outside Jerusalem where the trash was burned.  If annihilation is what you're studying, this is likely the starting point.

Hades is something else entirely.  It was not a place of torment in most ancient culture, but a place of waiting for re-birth.

Offline robycop3

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Gehenna was the term JESUS  used to describe the lake of fire, which is eternal.

  hades is the place where the souls of the dead temporarily go. It's divided into "paradise" for the saved & "torments" for the lost, according to one of Jesus' parables.

Offline Larry H

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If hell is the final resting place for the dead then why did Jesus use the word destroy, everlasting destruction etc. I thought only the saved get immortality. Those who believe that God created an oven for the unbelieving dead should  Rethink Hell. The word Hell is leaving the bible, and  systematic Christianity is having a hard time with it.  ::taz::

There is a book out called "The fire that consumes" by Ed Fudge. and many are taking note of it. Take the challenge, you may be surprised.


Matthew 10:28-Rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
   
James 4:12-There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.

Philippians 3:19-Whose end is destruction.
   
2 Thessalonians 1:9-Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.

Hebrews 10:39-But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition. (Greek: destruction)

Those who preached the word Hell to the atheist has given them ammunition to shoot back at them.  ::swordfight::

Offline robycop3

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  Remember, Scripture says Satan will be cast into the lake of fire where the "beast & the false prophet ARE", not "were".

Offline Larry H

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I found this article, you may be interested in who believe God created a lake of fire somewhere in the universe for the unbelievers who do not love Him, for those Who will received immortality so they can burn forever.

We are programmed by systematic Christianity that it is hard to let go of the idea of a burning Hell.  ::preachit::


Do the homework call me back ::announcment::

What Is the Lake of Fire? Is It the Same as Hell or Gehenna?

The Bible’s answer

The lake of fire is a symbol of eternal destruction. It is the same as Gehenna, but it is different from hell, which is the common grave of mankind.

Not a literal lake

The five Bible verses that mention “the lake of fire” show it to be a symbol rather than a literal lake. (Revelation 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8) The following are cast into the lake of fire:

The Devil. (Revelation 20:10) As a spirit creature, the Devil cannot be harmed by literal fire.—Exodus 3:2; Judges 13:20.
Death. (Revelation 20:14) This is not a literal entity but represents a state of inactivity, the absence of life. (Ecclesiastes 9:10) Death cannot literally be burned.

“The wild beast” and “the false prophet.” (Revelation 19:20) Since these are symbols, doesn’t it seem reasonable to conclude that the lake they are thrown into is also a symbol?—Revelation 13:11, 12;16:13.

A symbol of eternal destruction

The Bible says that the lake of fire “means the second death.” (Revelation 20:14; 21:8) The first kind of death mentioned in the Bible resulted from Adam’s sin. This death can be reversed by resurrection and will eventually be eliminated by God.—1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 26.

There is no release from the symbolic lake of fire

The lake of fire represents a different, or second, kind of death. Although it too represents a state of total inactivity, it is different in that the Bible says nothing about a resurrection from the second death. For example, the Bible says that Jesus has “the keys of hell and of death,” showing that he has the authority to release people from the death brought by Adam’s sin. (Revelation 1:18; 20:13, King James Version) However, neither Jesus nor anyone else has a key to the lake of fire. That symbolic lake represents eternal punishment in the form of permanent destruction.—2 Thessalonians 1:9.

Identical to Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom

Gehenna (Greek geʹen•na) is mentioned 12 times in the Bible. Like the lake of fire, it is a symbol of eternal destruction. Although some translations render this word as “hell,” Gehenna is different from hell (Hebrew sheʼohlʹ, Greek haiʹdes).

The Valley of Hinnom

The word “Gehenna” literally means “Valley of Hinnom,” referring to a valley just outside Jerusalem. In Bible times, the city residents used this valley as a garbage dump. They kept a fire constantly burning there to destroy refuse; maggots consumed anything that the fire did not reach.

Jesus used Gehenna as a symbol of everlasting destruction. (Matthew 23:33) He said that in Gehenna “the maggot does not die and the fire is not put out.” (Mark 9:47, 48) He thus alluded to the conditions in the Valley of Hinnom and also to the prophecy at Isaiah 66:24, which says: “They will go out and look on the carcasses of the men who rebelled against me; for the worms on them will not die, and their fire will not be extinguished.” Jesus’ illustration describes, not torture, but complete annihilation. The worms and fire consume carcasses, or dead bodies, not living people.

The Bible gives no indication of any return from Gehenna. “The lake of fire” and “the fiery Gehenna” both represent permanent, everlasting destruction.—Revelation 20:14, 15; 21:8; Matthew 18:9.

How “tormented day and night forever and ever”?

If the lake of fire is a symbol of destruction, why does the Bible say that in it the Devil, the wild beast, and the false prophet “will be tormented day and night forever and ever”? (Revelation 20:10) Consider four reasons why this torment does not refer to literal torture:


For the Devil to be tortured eternally, he would have to be kept alive forever. However, the Bible says that he will be brought to nothing, or put out of existence.—Hebrews 2:14.

Everlasting life is a gift from God, not a punishment.—Romans 6:23.

The wild beast and the false prophet are symbols and cannot experience literal torture.

The context of the Bible indicates that the torment of the Devil is everlasting restraint or destruction.

The word used for “torment” in the Bible can also mean “a condition of restraint.” For example, the Greek word for “tormentors” used at Matthew 18:34 is rendered as “jailers” in many translations, showing the connection between the words “torment” and “restraint.” Likewise, the parallel accounts at Matthew 8:29 and Luke 8:30, 31 equate “torment” with “the abyss,” a figurative place of complete inactivity or death. (Romans 10:7; Revelation 20:1, 3) In fact, several times the book of Revelation uses the word “torment” in a symbolic sense.—Revelation 9:5; 11:10; 18:7, 10.


Offline Rexenm

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All this is making sense to me now, but I get what you mean about the word of God being elusive. What else can you say about Gehenna?

Offline Larry H

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Hi Rex

The word Gehenna is mentioned some 10 times in the NT by Jesus, it is important to understand how His Jewish audience understood the word Gehenna. It may be good to start from the beginning or your journey, and be amazed how we presented the charter of God. So I suggest take the ride and study the information presented and see that all these years we were preaching a false Gospel concerning Hell/Gehenna. 

https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/?gclid=CjwKCAjwue3nBRACEiwAkpZhmWAMMXRHSQv6D9lZoVOwFDKzjzeb9IW9MLfDpf-cdwoW8DxqOq4ZTRoC-XUQAvD_BwE

Hope to see you soon

Larry

Offline robycop3

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  Jesus also called it straight-out, the "lake of fire". It cannot be a pleasant place. He used "gehenna" because the earthly gehenna, the garbage dump outside Jerusalem, burned constantly til the Romans sacked Jerusalem & no more trash was dumped there.

  And Revelation says Satan will be cast into the lake of fire, where the "beast" & false prophet ARE, having been cast there 1K years earlier.

  The "beast" & the false prophet will be MEN, the most-evil men of all time. They'll be so bad they'll be cast directly into the LOF without passing "Go!" or collecting $200. They won't go into the Great White Throne judgment, having been already judged & condemned. Nowhere does Scripture say they, nor Satan, will simply be blotted outta existence.

  Now, I don't wanna find out how bad the LOF will be, so I TRUST JESUS to keep me from going there. I hope each of you will do the same !

 

Offline Larry H

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First go here

Jesus used Gehenna as a symbol of everlasting destruction. (Matthew 23:33) He said that in Gehenna “the maggot does not die and the fire is not put out.” (Mark 9:47, 48) He thus alluded to the conditions in the Valley of Hinnom and also to the prophecy at Isaiah 66:24, which says: “They will go out and look on the carcasses of the men who rebelled against me; for the worms on them will not die, and their fire will not be extinguished.” Jesus’ illustration describes, not torture, but complete annihilation. The worms and fire consume carcasses, or dead bodies, not living people.

The Bible gives no indication of any return from Gehenna. “The lake of fire” and “the fiery Gehenna” both represent permanent, everlasting destruction.—Revelation 20:14, 15; 21:8; Matthew 18:9.