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ole Jake
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« on: January 06, 2009, 09:53:43 PM »

No one has been able to provide anything close to a definitive answer on how people can know what is and is not a correct reading of scripture. As Protestantism is based on first sola fide and second sola scriptura, if the former cannot be defined definitively (and Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Anabaptists, and low church Anglicans all defined it very differently - to the point of denouncing each other for heresy - before the mid-1530s), and the latter cannot be defined to provide a clear and persuasive explanation for how to interpret the Bible, then only a fool is shocked that Luther's Protestant movement has led to 10,000 or more denominations founded since 1519. The recipe is chaos sprung from solipsism and the egos of men, and women, acting as if they are popes, councils, and Magisterium all rolled into one.

So, Protestants, define by what authority the canon of scripture was determined. Who had the authority to decide what was in and what was out?

I charge that you use a Catholic-defined Bible, save that your heretical father, Luther, decided to cut portions (ala Marcion, who like Luther also misread Paul by isolating him from the rest of the Apostles) decided to cut off parts to make his case easier at times and to mark his territory, to claim his authority to define the canon of inspited scripture.

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Tu Es Petrus
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2009, 10:07:47 PM »

"What's Your Authority?"
CLICK HERE
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2009, 10:07:47 PM »

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Tantor
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« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2009, 08:19:46 AM »

I would agree with you.. but we have a big problem.. the catholic exchanged its living God for idols and lost its authority in the process. 

So we are left with no authority except for the Holy Spirit living in us.
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ole Jake
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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2009, 09:02:26 AM »

I would agree with you.. but we have a big problem.. the catholic exchanged its living God for idols and lost its authority in the process. 

So we are left with no authority except for the Holy Spirit living in us.


How do you know that your assessment is correct? By what authority do you make such a pontification?

Pharisees declared that Christians added paganism to Judaism. They are your fathers.
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Tantor
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« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2009, 09:13:31 AM »

I would agree with you.. but we have a big problem.. the catholic exchanged its living God for idols and lost its authority in the process. 

So we are left with no authority except for the Holy Spirit living in us.


How do you know that your assessment is correct? By what authority do you make such a pontification?

Pharisees declared that Christians added paganism to Judaism. They are your fathers.

God is my father.. through Adam.


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ole Jake
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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2009, 10:02:22 AM »

I would agree with you.. but we have a big problem.. the catholic exchanged its living God for idols and lost its authority in the process. 

So we are left with no authority except for the Holy Spirit living in us.


How do you know that your assessment is correct? By what authority do you make such a pontification?

Pharisees declared that Christians added paganism to Judaism. They are your fathers.

God is my father.. through Adam.




The Pharisees, while rejecting God Incarnate, claimed Abraham as their father. God Incarnate informed them otherwise, telling them that Stan is their father (meaning the father of their faith, because it is in rebellion against God's order).

In asserting your own authority, you reject the authority instituted by God Incarnate and so are in league with the Pharisees.

Who has the authority to declare the canon of inspired scripture?
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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2009, 10:02:22 AM »

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Tantor
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2009, 10:06:04 AM »

I would agree with you.. but we have a big problem.. the catholic exchanged its living God for idols and lost its authority in the process. 

So we are left with no authority except for the Holy Spirit living in us.


How do you know that your assessment is correct? By what authority do you make such a pontification?

Pharisees declared that Christians added paganism to Judaism. They are your fathers.

God is my father.. through Adam.




The Pharisees, while rejecting God Incarnate, claimed Abraham as their father. God Incarnate informed them otherwise, telling them that Stan is their father (meaning the father of their faith, because it is in rebellion against God's order).

In asserting your own authority, you reject the authority instituted by God Incarnate and so are in league with the Pharisees.

Who has the authority to declare the canon of inspired scripture?

Nobody... because I believe that Canon of scripture is nothing more then a feeble attempt by man to fill in a blank that God intentionally left.

Until I see a table of contents written by one of Jesus disciples or by Jesus himself... the canon we have is merely an invention of man.
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ole Jake
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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2009, 10:34:17 AM »

I would agree with you.. but we have a big problem.. the catholic exchanged its living God for idols and lost its authority in the process. 

So we are left with no authority except for the Holy Spirit living in us.


How do you know that your assessment is correct? By what authority do you make such a pontification?

Pharisees declared that Christians added paganism to Judaism. They are your fathers.

God is my father.. through Adam.




The Pharisees, while rejecting God Incarnate, claimed Abraham as their father. God Incarnate informed them otherwise, telling them that Stan is their father (meaning the father of their faith, because it is in rebellion against God's order).

In asserting your own authority, you reject the authority instituted by God Incarnate and so are in league with the Pharisees.

Who has the authority to declare the canon of inspired scripture?

Nobody... because I believe that Canon of scripture is nothing more then a feeble attempt by man to fill in a blank that God intentionally left.

Until I see a table of contents written by one of Jesus disciples or by Jesus himself... the canon we have is merely an invention of man.


There will be some reading that who will think that surely you jest, but I am aware of countless like you. That argument was used in the ancient world by Gnostics to defend their adherence to various false notions, which they then wrote spurious 'gospels' to use as defense.

It is good to see that you at least take the logic that the average Protestant assumes has no telos to its telos. Your only authority is yourself.



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Tantor
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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2009, 10:40:01 AM »

Why does one need authority in front of man anyway?  Isn't it the Holy Spirit in us that our authority is derived from?

I would say that anyone that would seek authority in Christendom is someone to be avoided at all costs.  Authority in the scriptures was attained through careful argument and humility by the Apostles... there's was of servant leadership.. not by iron fist.

So for me to recognize any authority it would have to derive from the example set forth by Christ and the Apostles.. not something dreamed up by uninspired men later.

Even your church rejected a lot of early writings from disciples of the first Apostles.. i.e. Polycarp, Justin the Martyr, etc... people that had direct contact with the chosen of Christ in favor of a Pope that no more knew the apostles then I do.

If you want authority.. then you have to logically justify it.. and I see no church anywhere that can jump the gap from the apostles without a lot of tom foolery.



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ole Jake
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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2009, 11:59:47 AM »

Why does one need authority in front of man anyway?  Isn't it the Holy Spirit in us that our authority is derived from?

I would say that anyone that would seek authority in Christendom is someone to be avoided at all costs.  Authority in the scriptures was attained through careful argument and humility by the Apostles... there's was of servant leadership.. not by iron fist.

So for me to recognize any authority it would have to derive from the example set forth by Christ and the Apostles.. not something dreamed up by uninspired men later.

Even your church rejected a lot of early writings from disciples of the first Apostles.. i.e. Polycarp, Justin the Martyr, etc... people that had direct contact with the chosen of Christ in favor of a Pope that no more knew the apostles then I do.

If you want authority.. then you have to logically justify it.. and I see no church anywhere that can jump the gap from the apostles without a lot of tom foolery.





Your first two questions again show that your only authority is yourself. You have not rejected the concepts of papacy, councils, and Magisterium: rather, you see those as you.

Your second statement is patently absurd and would be laughably false (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Cranmer and Knox, etc. all would have declared it utterly heretical) even to all adherents of sola scriptura, if that Luther-concocted doctrine did not create chaos ever proliferating into solipsistic nothingness.

Christ gave all authority to the Apostles, with the keys of the kingdom given to Peter, and He instructed them to train men to take their place. You either accept that authority or you are in rebellion against it, thereby making yourself your own apostle.

If you declare that the canon of scripture is false, a work of mere men, it is at best redundant to care that the writings of men taught by Apostles were not canonized.
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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2009, 11:59:47 AM »

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Tantor
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« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2009, 12:17:20 PM »

I would follow the eastern orthodox churches before I would follow that usurper in Rome..

And I do not declare the canon false.. per se.. I declare that the individual works of the Apostles should never have been compiled into one volume.. and that other ancient writings stand as a witness to the meanings of the Apostles works.. the scripture cannot be understood without them.

The above is the biggest problem with protestantism... they believe the books compiled into what we call the bible can be used to interpret itself... the ignore the context and culture that the Apostles lived in as being relevant to their writings.

The biggest problem with Catholicism is the long dark sinful history it represents.. the murders, the popes and anti-popes.. the king makers.. the total and utter corruption that has seeped into every thing it has ever done and stands for.

They say you will know Christians by their actions.. and the history of the Papacy totally disqualifies it as being in any way shape or form related to Christ. (the same can be said for Protestantism for the most part).





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ole Jake
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« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2009, 01:40:23 PM »

I would follow the eastern orthodox churches before I would follow that usurper in Rome..

And I do not declare the canon false.. per se.. I declare that the individual works of the Apostles should never have been compiled into one volume.. and that other ancient writings stand as a witness to the meanings of the Apostles works.. the scripture cannot be understood without them.

The above is the biggest problem with protestantism... they believe the books compiled into what we call the bible can be used to interpret itself... the ignore the context and culture that the Apostles lived in as being relevant to their writings.

The biggest problem with Catholicism is the long dark sinful history it represents.. the murders, the popes and anti-popes.. the king makers.. the total and utter corruption that has seeped into every thing it has ever done and stands for.

They say you will know Christians by their actions.. and the history of the Papacy totally disqualifies it as being in any way shape or form related to Christ. (the same can be said for Protestantism for the most part).



You make no sense, logically coherent sense, which leads to me even more to see you as little more than another who is simply in rebelion against the seat of Peter. if Catholcism has adopted idol worship, then so has Orthodoxy, which means you must denounce it as unrelentingly as you do Catholicism.

Knowing the history and cultures of the ancient world does not solve the problem of scripture assumed to interpret itself. The problem is what authority declares an end to disputes by judging what is correct and what is incorrect, which would be the same authority that declares what is inspired scripture.

Protestantism is a system that fits naturally with universalism (as Servetus declared), for it instructs (through sola scriptura and sola fide) the believer to see himself as that authority, which leads either to endless wars to prove right through might or tolerance of all, even the most egregious errors, as the way to prevent the violence.

That is the fruit of Luther and his 'reformation:' a rejection of Christendom for a world of universalism in which all non-Christian religions are favored to a significant degree and endless paganisms are reborn or reinvigorated, while public immorality hits highs not known even in the worst of the pagan Roman Empire.

The fruit of Catholicsm is the only Christendom the world has ever seen, the only set of nations in which Christian identity and morals were publicly confessed.
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« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2009, 01:45:23 PM »

Protestantism is a system that fits naturally with universalism (as Servetus declared), for it instructs (through sola scriptura and sola fide) the believer to see himself as that authority, which leads either to endless wars to prove right through might or tolerance of all, even the most egregious errors, as the way to prevent the violence.

That is the fruit of Luther and his 'reformation:' a rejection of Christendom for a world of universalism in which all non-Christian religions are favored to a significant degree and endless paganisms are reborn or reinvigorated, while public immorality hits highs not known even in the worst of the pagan Roman Empire.

Better to live free in Christ than be a slave to Religion. Also, Catholic church doesn't exactly have gold stars for preserving morality. The cover up of child molesters 'fathers' comes to mind. This isn't to say other churches are without fault...but the cover up of such acts is what disgust me the most. I could understand the sinful nature of man (even priests), but the church taking care of these molesters instead of turning them in? Gross, and it speaks leagues of the church as a whole.

I mean, what is the defense at this point? "We have many good Catholics in the church...it just so happens that the bad ones are running things that's all."
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« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2009, 01:45:23 PM »

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Tantor
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« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2009, 01:53:00 PM »

Protestantism is a system that fits naturally with universalism (as Servetus declared), for it instructs (through sola scriptura and sola fide) the believer to see himself as that authority, which leads either to endless wars to prove right through might or tolerance of all, even the most egregious errors, as the way to prevent the violence.

That is the fruit of Luther and his 'reformation:' a rejection of Christendom for a world of universalism in which all non-Christian religions are favored to a significant degree and endless paganisms are reborn or reinvigorated, while public immorality hits highs not known even in the worst of the pagan Roman Empire.

Better to live free in Christ than be a slave to Religion. Also, Catholic church doesn't exactly have gold stars for preserving morality. The cover up of child molesters 'fathers' comes to mind. This isn't to say other churches are without fault...but the cover up of such acts is what disgust me the most. I could understand the sinful nature of man (even priests), but the church taking care of these molesters instead of turning them in? Gross, and it speaks leagues of the church as a whole.

I mean, what is the defense at this point? "We have many good Catholics in the church...it just so happens that the bad ones are running things that's all."

Amen... you will know Christians by their fruits.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 02:37:17 PM by Tantor » Logged
Johnb
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« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2009, 02:46:57 PM »

So Jake how do you know your authority is right?  What proof do you have.  I guess we are all to accept the authority of an elected old man who may or may not be in full charge of his faculties>
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