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Author Topic: By What Authority?  (Read 5940 times)
Tu Es Petrus
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« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2009, 08:28:02 PM »

So Jake how do you know your authority is right?  What proof do you have.  I guess we are all to accept the authority of an elected old man who may or may not be in full charge of his faculties

Oh, isn't that nice.

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« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2009, 09:26:22 PM »

So Jake how do you know your authority is right?  What proof do you have.  I guess we are all to accept the authority of an elected old man who may or may not be in full charge of his faculties>

We all have two choices: either we accept that Christ, God Incarnate, gave all authority to the Apostles, and gave the keys to the kingsdom to Peter, and He also taught them how to train their successors to lead the one church with one faith and one baptism and one body, which means that we subdue our egos and accept, or we reject the system that Christ prepared and the Apostles trained their successors to run until He returns.

The first choice means that you are Catholic or Orthodox, and the second choice means that you are Protestant and that you have replaced the Popes, Bishops, Councils, and Magisterium with your own private interpretations and/or your faith in the infallibility of Luther and/or some other Protestant leader.

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« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2009, 09:26:22 PM »

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« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2009, 09:30:10 PM »

If you would like to know what Scripture means, or whether you even need to worry about what that passage means, just let me know, and I'll tell you.
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« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2009, 09:32:42 PM »

So Jake how do you know your authority is right?  What proof do you have.  I guess we are all to accept the authority of an elected old man who may or may not be in full charge of his faculties>

We all have two choices: either we accept that Christ, God Incarnate, gave all authority to the Apostles, and gave the keys to the kingsdom to Peter, and He also taught them how to train their successors to lead the one church with one faith and one baptism and one body, which means that we subdue our egos and accept, or we reject the system that Christ prepared and the Apostles trained their successors to run until He returns.

The first choice means that you are Catholic or Orthodox, and the second choice means that you are Protestant and that you have replaced the Popes, Bishops, Councils, and Magisterium with your own private interpretations and/or your faith in the infallibility of Luther and/or some other Protestant leader.


Ole Jake, I ask this with respect, but true inquisitiveness. Where in scripture did Jesus give Peter the keys of the Kingdom?
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« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2009, 09:47:01 PM »

 13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Matt 16:13-20 (KJV)
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« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2009, 06:32:03 AM »


The first choice means that you are Catholic or Orthodox, and the second choice means that you are Protestant and that you have replaced the Popes, Bishops, Councils, and Magisterium with your own private interpretations and/or your faith in the infallibility of Luther and/or some other Protestant leader.

Popes, Bishops, Councils, and Magisteria? Where in the Bible do we find this hierarchy identified as the authority?  Answer  --  we don't.  They are Roman Catholic inventions.  They are the inventions of men.  Inventions mostly designed to establish personal power.  They are the replacements.  The nonCatholic has just simply rejected the Roman Catholic replacements.
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« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2009, 06:32:03 AM »

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Tu Es Petrus
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« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2009, 06:59:09 AM »

If you would like to know what Scripture means, or whether you even need to worry about what that passage means, just let me know, and I'll tell you.

I'd rather let the legitimate successors of the apostles tell me - the bishops in union with the successor of Peter.

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« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2009, 07:01:07 AM »

If you would like to know what Scripture means, or whether you even need to worry about what that passage means, just let me know, and I'll tell you.

I'd rather let the legitimate successors of the apostles tell me - the bishops in union with the successor of Peter.


Again, I will repeat my question that I asked Ole Jake. Where in scripture was Peter handed the keys to the Kingdom?
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Tu Es Petrus
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« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2009, 07:06:37 AM »

If you would like to know what Scripture means, or whether you even need to worry about what that passage means, just let me know, and I'll tell you.

I'd rather let the legitimate successors of the apostles tell me - the bishops in union with the successor of Peter.


Again, I will repeat my question that I asked Ole Jake. Where in scripture was Peter handed the keys to the Kingdom?

Matt 16: 17-19: "...Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
 

Simply, the Pope is the fulfillment of the office of Prime Minister that existed in the Kindoms of David and his successors (as many things in the NT are fulfillments of their OT "types".)
 
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call My servant Eliakim the son of Helcias, and I will clothe him with thy Robe, and I will strengthen him with thy Sash, and will give thy Power (authority) into his hand; and he shall be as a FATHER (the word 'Pope' means 'Father') to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And I will lay the Key of the House of David (the symbol of primacy) upon his shoulder; and he shall open and none shall shut; and he shall shut and none shall open. And I will fasten him as a peg in a Sure Place(the Papal Office), and he shall be for a Throne of glory to the house of his Father. And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his Fathers house, diverse kinds of vessels, every little vessel, from the vessels of cups even to every instrument of music." (Isaiah 22:20-24)
 
In the Davidic Kingdoms, there was the office of Prime Minister (who actually wore a key on his robe as a symbol of office). This position is what is referred to in the abouve text and in other historical documents.

So now let's fast-forward to the New Testament: JESUS is the King, the "son of David", in the line of David. These Jewish men, steeped in there Jewish culture, knew EXACTLY what it meant when Jesus gave Peter the keys. Peter was to be the Prime Minister of Christ's Kingdom, the "Keeper of the Keys".
 
So this is what the Pope is: Prime Minister of the King's Kingdom. Also, the Pope has a pastoral role, which is established in John 21: 15-17, when Christ told Peter: "feed my lambs.. ..feed my sheep.. ..tend my sheep."
 
This is the Pope: Prime Minister of Christs Kingdom, and Pastor of the flock. With that in mind, I see the Papacy is ALL THROUGH the scriptures. Now, throw into that mix the fact there is ample evidence in the New Testament that Peter was first in authority among the apostles. Whenever they were named, Peter headed the list (Matt. 10:1-4, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:14-16, Acts 1:13) ; sometimes the apostles were referred to as "Peter and those who were with him" (Luke 9:32). Peter was the one who generally spoke for the apostles (Matt. 18:21, Mark 8:29, Luke 12:41, John 6), and he figured in many of the most dramatic scenes (Matt. 14:28-32, Matt. 17:24-27, Mark 10:23-28 ) . On Pentecost it was Peter who first preached to the crowds (Acts 2:14-40), and he worked the first healing in the Church age (Acts 3:6-7). It is Peter’s faith that will strengthen his brethren (Luke 22:32) and, as I said, Peter is given Christ’s flock to shepherd (John 21:17). An angel was sent to announce the resurrection to Peter (Mark 16:7), and the risen Christ first appeared to Peter (Luke 24:34). He headed the meeting that elected Matthias to replace Judas (Acts 1:13-26), and he received the first converts (Acts 2:41). He inflicted the first punishment (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic (Acts 8:18-23). He led the first council in Jerusalem (Acts 15), and announced the first dogmatic decision (Acts 15:7-11). It was to Peter that the revelation came that Gentiles were to be baptized and accepted as Christians (Acts 10:46-48 ) .

« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 07:18:09 AM by Tu Es Petrus » Logged
Tu Es Petrus
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« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2009, 07:25:55 AM »

I would agree with you.. but we have a big problem.. the catholic exchanged its living God for idols and lost its authority in the process. 

So we are left with no authority except for the Holy Spirit living in us.


In the sticky "Discussion of Catholics and Protestants - Please Read" by spurly, he states:
.....We are free to discuss why we think a certain belief is true or why we believe a certain belief is not true according to the scriptures.  However we are not free to call other posters heretics, cultists, or any other derogatory name.  Keep the posts focused on the topic of discussion at hand and off of personal attacks and we will be able to have civil, intelligent discussions with one another.

There have already been some posters on both sides who have overstepped their bounds in this area on a few recent threads.  Remember to speak the truth in love.  Remember to keep the royal law according to the scriptures.  Remember to love your neighbor as yourself.  After you have finished a post, read over it a second time to make sure all personal attacks have been edited out.  Then, and only then, hit the post button.

For those who are not thick skinned, please remember if someone is explaining why they think a belief you cherish deeply is false according to the scriptures, they are not necessarily attacking you.  Instead they may just be trying to let you know how their understanding of a certain scripture differs from yours.  But if you feel like someone is attacking you and calling you a heretic or a cultist, please report that to the moderators - we don't catch everything
....."

In my opinion, you have violated this rule. You have accused us of being idolators, but you have not demonstrated it "according to the scriptures", you have not spoken "the truth in love", and you have not kept your post "focused on the topic of discussion at hand".

Since there seems to be no enforcement of these guidlines, I will just put it out there for all to see.
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« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2009, 07:25:55 AM »

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« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2009, 07:35:54 AM »

Tu
My comment about the pope being an old man who may not be in full charge of his facilities was not intended to be unkind.  He is elected for live and is usually fairly old at the time.  It is a natural part of aging.

Here are some problems with Peter being the first pope and passing it on.

1.  There is no historical or biblical evidence that he established the church at Rome.

2. If Jesus had made it clear that he was to be the leader of the church or kingdom why were the apostles still wanting to know at the last supper who was to be the greatest in the kingdom.  Jesus did not solve this argument by telling them that Peter was to be the authority that mattered but told them to become servants to be the greatest.

3. Jesus did not give Peter alone the right to bind and loose in the kingdom.  I Matt 18 speaking to all the disciples He said they the disciples not just Peter or the apostle would have the authority to bind and loose.

4.  The origin of the church was in Jerusalem not Rome and the first church council was there with James being the leader.

5. Paul did not consider Peter to be above him when he publically rebuked him in Gal. 2

6.  There is no scriptural or historical evidence that Peter was the supreme leader of the church nor that he nor any of the apostles were to have perpetual successors.
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« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2009, 07:48:49 AM »

I would agree with you.. but we have a big problem.. the catholic exchanged its living God for idols and lost its authority in the process. 

So we are left with no authority except for the Holy Spirit living in us.


I added emphasis because I strongly agree. God's word is given by the Holy Spirit....and men, writing as the Holy Spirit inspired them gives us the word which is written, and because the Holy Spirit does not contradict himself everyone who applies God's word in their heart and gives it life through their actual living it out will come to know just what the Thessalonians came to know as stated by the apostle Paul in his first letter to the church there.....that the word is not just words of men, but the actual word of God which works effectively in those who believe it.

Prior to this Paul said to them, "But we know brothers loved by God that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. (I Thessalonians 1:4-5 NIV)

Today, that same Holy Spirit moves with deep conviction in anyone who genuinely comes to Christ by faith. God's word, working through the Holy Spirit is all the evidence I need.....I don't have to worry about biblical canons....just a "deep conviction" that Jesus is the Christ, and that I can have faith in Him and His righteousness.

Catholics can play their game of superiority by blasting others about authority or the authorized canon of scripture, but NO ONE can deny God's Holy Spirit being able to perform what God sent Him forth to do.

When I know that I have been sealed with the Holy Spirit until that great day, then that is all I need. I may not be a genius, a bible scholar, or even anything remotely above my true status.....a sinner saved by God's grace.....but I do know that I have the Holy Spirit working in me with the same deep conviction mentioned above, and that I can see firsthand the word of God working effectively in my life.....because I believe it!!

Thank you, God and Father, for giving us your Holy Spirit!!

« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 08:01:04 AM by savedbyhim » Logged

"And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. " (John 17:3)
Tu Es Petrus
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« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2009, 08:15:48 AM »

Tu
My comment about the pope being an old man who may not be in full charge of his facilities was not intended to be unkind.  He is elected for live and is usually fairly old at the time.  It is a natural part of aging.

Here are some problems with Peter being the first pope and passing it on.

1.  There is no historical or biblical evidence that he established the church at Rome.

2. If Jesus had made it clear that he was to be the leader of the church or kingdom why were the apostles still wanting to know at the last supper who was to be the greatest in the kingdom.  Jesus did not solve this argument by telling them that Peter was to be the authority that mattered but told them to become servants to be the greatest.

3. Jesus did not give Peter alone the right to bind and loose in the kingdom.  I Matt 18 speaking to all the disciples He said they the disciples not just Peter or the apostle would have the authority to bind and loose.

4.  The origin of the church was in Jerusalem not Rome and the first church council was there with James being the leader.

5. Paul did not consider Peter to be above him when he publically rebuked him in Gal. 2

6.  There is no scriptural or historical evidence that Peter was the supreme leader of the church nor that he nor any of the apostles were to have perpetual successors.

I'm sorry, but each of those points is either incorrect, or not relevant to the papacy. I will address each one in time. Now I'm getting ready to go to work. But I will address the one about Peter being in Rome for now by asking you to read this link: http://www.catholic.com/library/Was_Peter_in_Rome.asp

I'll be back.



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« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2009, 08:15:48 AM »

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« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2009, 08:38:05 AM »

I would follow the eastern orthodox churches before I would follow that usurper in Rome..

Well, I would see turning to Eastern Orthodoxy as a good thing, myself!  Anything I can do to help?!
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« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2009, 08:45:14 AM »

Popes, Bishops, Councils, and Magisteria? Where in the Bible do we find this hierarchy identified as the authority?
 

Actually, bishops and councils are in the New Testament--just check your Greek concordance and look at Acts 15.  The Pope is just one title of the bishop of Rome, and the "magisteria" is nothing more than the teaching charism given to the Church's leaders which you will find in Ephesians 4.

So, yes, these things are found in Scripture.

Now, let me pose a question to which you've already given an answer:

Where do we find church boards, church buildings, PA systems, communion thimbles, communion trays, Sunday School, VBS, parachurch missions organizations, etc., etc., etc., in the Bible.

Answer  --  we don't.

And you're right.  We don't find those things in Scripture.  They are, PROTESTANT inventions.  They are the inventions of men.

But you will argue--and I will agree--that these things are legitimate tools the Church uses to accomplish its mission.  I would also argue that while bishops, councils, magisteria, and so forth are found in the Scripture, they are not found in their present exact forms.  Why, because these are also tools that are legitimate developments the Church uses to accomplish it's mission.
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Benedict Seraphim
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