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Question: Who do you think had more Atrocities
Protestants   -2 (40%)
Cathoisism   -3 (60%)
Total Voters: 4

Author Topic: Protestant Atrocities  (Read 6000 times)
James.
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« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2008, 04:33:27 PM »

Salaried preachers, Catholics, and President Bush all have this in common: Reformer doesn't like them and isn't shy about sharing his dislike with the world. If you are one of those three, I'd recommend avoiding his posts. It'd prevent heartburn all around.
So he must have had a near heart attack watching EWTN's coverage of the papal visit to the White House! Rolling on floor laughing
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« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2008, 04:33:46 PM »

"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."  -- Jesus

"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.  The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me."  -  Jesus
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He was despised and forsaken of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; like one from whom men hide their face; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.  Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.  But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.
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« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2008, 04:33:46 PM »

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« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2008, 04:43:15 PM »

"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."  -- Jesus

"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.  The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me."  -  Jesus

Great post Spurly - and apparently about 6 months too late
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« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2008, 06:06:04 PM »

6 months? What do you mean by that?
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« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2008, 01:24:16 PM »

Did you know that if two Chinese people get married, their children will not be English?

Yep....two Wong's don't make a Wright.

I agree but there comes a time when one must fight fire with fire.

Only trained properly , outfitted, dedicated firemen must try this... everyone else... will crash and burn.  And even they will tell you to try fighting fire with water first or the approved fire fighting equipment, such as an extinguisher.  Fighting fire with fire is reserved for the trained professional.  FYI.
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« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2008, 01:45:18 PM »

Quote
Martin Luther urged German peasants to rebel, but he switched sides and then urged the Northern German princes to massacre the peasants. There is good reason for this change. Luther knew that the Northern German princes were protecting him, and for Luther to be accused of aiding and abetting the peasants would be fatal to him.

Broach,
Do you have any proof of this assertion?  I'm sure your intention is to be truthful, but I think you are referring to Thomas Müntzer,  not Martin Luther.  Luther did not encourage a revolt, nor did he "switch sides".  He actually admonished both sides to refrain from violence and encouraged a peaceful transition in German social conditions.
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« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2008, 01:45:18 PM »

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broach972
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« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2008, 02:42:54 PM »

Quote
Martin Luther urged German peasants to rebel, but he switched sides and then urged the Northern German princes to massacre the peasants. There is good reason for this change. Luther knew that the Northern German princes were protecting him, and for Luther to be accused of aiding and abetting the peasants would be fatal to him.

Broach,
Do you have any proof of this assertion?  I'm sure your intention is to be truthful, but I think you are referring to Thomas Müntzer,  not Martin Luther.  Luther did not encourage a revolt, nor did he "switch sides".  He actually admonished both sides to refrain from violence and encouraged a peaceful transition in German social conditions.

Actually, Luther encouraged peasants to revolt against their Catholic princes.  However, when Luther realized that the peasants were taking what he was teaching and applying it to the political/social arena, he balked.  Luther's teachings opened up whole can of worms, and not just in the spiritual realm.  When one teaches that everything is up for grabs and that relativism rules, you are always asking for trouble.  The peasants figured, if I can determine on my own what Scripture means and formulate my own doctrines, why wouldn't they think that they should no longer be ruled by a bunch of princes and continue to be tied to the land as serfs.  If you can overturn 1500 years of established doctrine, why not fight against centuries of tyranny and injustice?

This is a well known fact.  I teach it every year when I cover the Reformation and my textbook, which is used in the majority of history classes in the country, backs this up.
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« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2008, 02:50:12 PM »

It is a well known fact that Luther taught men to look to the word of God, much to the dismay of the Roman Catholic church which had developed teachings and practices contrary to the word of God.
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« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2008, 03:09:54 PM »

Calvin, and the other reformer groups, have a bad track record as far as, believe what I believe, or else.

Are reformer and blituri brothers?

FTL
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« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2008, 03:57:32 PM »

I teach it every year when I cover the Reformation and my textbook, which is used in the majority of history classes in the country, backs this up.

So what?  It's the same as seeing history through the eyes of two different countries who are enemies, theose renditions of history will never be the same, and the factual predicates will never be agreed upon.  Majority or minority agreement with either side means nothing.

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« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2008, 03:57:32 PM »

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« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2008, 04:53:50 PM »

Calvin, Luther, and Wesley all were in favor of infant baptism.

FTL
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« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2008, 07:08:45 PM »

I teach it every year when I cover the Reformation and my textbook, which is used in the majority of history classes in the country, backs this up.

So what?  It's the same as seeing history through the eyes of two different countries who are enemies, theose renditions of history will never be the same, and the factual predicates will never be agreed upon.  Majority or minority agreement with either side means nothing.

Good points. Not to mention that many have taken to the practice of "revisionism", in order to support their cause.
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« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2008, 07:43:01 PM »

I teach it every year when I cover the Reformation and my textbook, which is used in the majority of history classes in the country, backs this up.

I'm sure a majority of history classes in catholic schools would back you up...
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« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2008, 07:43:01 PM »

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« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2008, 05:51:47 AM »

Quote
Actually, Luther encouraged peasants to revolt against their Catholic princes.  However, when Luther realized that the peasants were taking what he was teaching and applying it to the political/social arena, he balked.  Luther's teachings opened up whole can of worms, and not just in the spiritual realm.  When one teaches that everything is up for grabs and that relativism rules, you are always asking for trouble.  The peasants figured, if I can determine on my own what Scripture means and formulate my own doctrines, why wouldn't they think that they should no longer be ruled by a bunch of princes and continue to be tied to the land as serfs.  If you can overturn 1500 years of established doctrine, why not fight against centuries of tyranny and injustice?

This is a well known fact.  I teach it every year when I cover the Reformation and my textbook, which is used in the majority of history classes in the country, backs this up.

Broach,
Then it should be really easy for you to quote Luther to prove your assertion.  I'd like very much to see those quotes posted here, if you don't mind.
The history that I've read tells a different story, which is basically that both sides tried to claim Luther as their own.  Your post seems to be attributing a diabolicalism to Luther that I believe is unwarranted.
Thanks
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Suppose there were a physician who had such skill that people would not die, or even though they died would afterward live forever. Just think how the world would snow and rain money upon him! Because of the pressing crowd of rich men no one else could get near him. Now, here in Baptism there is brought free to every man's door just such a priceless medicine which swallows up death and saves the lives of all men.
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« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2008, 08:15:08 AM »


Broach,
Then it should be really easy for you to quote Luther to prove your assertion.  I'd like very much to see those quotes posted here, if you don't mind.
The history that I've read tells a different story, which is basically that both sides tried to claim Luther as their own.  Your post seems to be attributing a diabolicalism to Luther that I believe is unwarranted.
Thanks


You might want to take a look at this....

http://mars.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wc2/lectures/luther.html

There are many more lectures like this one.

I will even post a section here...

Quote
The priesthood of all believers was never meant to make every man his own prophet. In several areas (Strassburg, Augsburg, Zurich, and Moravia), separate movements of Christian radicalism developed, some passive, some active. Under the inspiration of radical Lutherans who had turned apocalyptic, the latter sort spread their mystic millenarianism through Germany and the Low Countries, and goaded.ed Luther for support. Unlike Luther, these wanted to bring society, not just faith, under the law of the gospel. Some were even prepared to use force to bring the whole society to purity. Naturally, they attracted the lower classes in town and country. Theirs was a Utopian movement and also a vent for class bitterness. Others were less millenarian, suppressing the need to separate the church from worldly society, and emphasizing pacifism and the love-ethic. Luther fulminated against both branches as fiercely as the Catholics, but neither burnings, drownings, nor massacres seemed to halt their spread...

Luther was even more violent in his denunciation of the peasants who demanded ''liberty'' in social terms on the basis of scriptural authority' The German peasantry were in an ambivalent position in the 16th century. Rising prices were in their favor, but the gap between prices for agricultural produce and industrial equipment was growing instead of decreasing. Not that peasants needed many tools. But their returns were not as large or fast as the city merchant's returns, and the growing disparity was irksome. More trying than this, though, were the downward pressures foisted on them by the Knights and magnates. The Knights as a class were threatened with decline because their rents and services, being relatively fixed, fell behind climbing prices. They were eager to reimpose maximum obligations on a peasantry that was eager to escape them. The Peasants War the injustice and oppression of these landlords. Coming as it did in the early states of the Reformation, and encouraged as it was in some areas by convinced Anabaptists, it threatened to drown Luther's work in a torrent of civil strife. At first Luther was noncommittal; he recognized that many of the peasants' grievances were genuine, but as the peasants indulged in indiscriminate pillaging he realized the danger to his own cause and turned against them with extraordinary venom. Princes, he urged, could better merit heaven by smiting, slaying and stabbing rebellious subjects than by prayer. It was said that over 100,000 peasants were killed in battle or executed afterward, and crippling fines were laid upon those who escaped with their lives. From this time the peasantry ceased to count in German politics; princes and magnates had vindicated their power once and for all. Where the revolt had been most vigorous, in Bohemia and Austria, the savage reprisals alienated the peasantry from Luther and the decline of Lutheranism in southern Germany dates from the crushing defeat of the Revolt rather than from the Counter-Reformation.


Luther encouraged the peasantry and ruling classes of Germany to rebel against the Catholic Chruch.   When the peasantry decided to take his teaching a step further, he denounced them and encouraged the ruling class to crush them.  This isn't revisionist history.  This is fact.

If anyone truly believes that the Reformation was purely a religious movement, then you are either naive or in dire need of a history course.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 08:35:39 AM by broach972 » Logged

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