Author Topic: Protestant Atrocities  (Read 24219 times)

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Offline extranos

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #35 on: Sat Apr 19, 2008 - 13:45:18 »
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Martin Luther urged German peasants to rebel, but he switched sides and then urged the Northern German princes to massacre the peasants. There is good reason for this change. Luther knew that the Northern German princes were protecting him, and for Luther to be accused of aiding and abetting the peasants would be fatal to him.

Broach,
Do you have any proof of this assertion?  I'm sure your intention is to be truthful, but I think you are referring to Thomas Müntzer,  not Martin Luther.  Luther did not encourage a revolt, nor did he "switch sides".  He actually admonished both sides to refrain from violence and encouraged a peaceful transition in German social conditions.

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #35 on: Sat Apr 19, 2008 - 13:45:18 »

Offline broach972

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #36 on: Sat Apr 19, 2008 - 14:42:54 »
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Martin Luther urged German peasants to rebel, but he switched sides and then urged the Northern German princes to massacre the peasants. There is good reason for this change. Luther knew that the Northern German princes were protecting him, and for Luther to be accused of aiding and abetting the peasants would be fatal to him.

Broach,
Do you have any proof of this assertion?  I'm sure your intention is to be truthful, but I think you are referring to Thomas Müntzer,  not Martin Luther.  Luther did not encourage a revolt, nor did he "switch sides".  He actually admonished both sides to refrain from violence and encouraged a peaceful transition in German social conditions.

Actually, Luther encouraged peasants to revolt against their Catholic princes.  However, when Luther realized that the peasants were taking what he was teaching and applying it to the political/social arena, he balked.  Luther's teachings opened up whole can of worms, and not just in the spiritual realm.  When one teaches that everything is up for grabs and that relativism rules, you are always asking for trouble.  The peasants figured, if I can determine on my own what Scripture means and formulate my own doctrines, why wouldn't they think that they should no longer be ruled by a bunch of princes and continue to be tied to the land as serfs.  If you can overturn 1500 years of established doctrine, why not fight against centuries of tyranny and injustice?

This is a well known fact.  I teach it every year when I cover the Reformation and my textbook, which is used in the majority of history classes in the country, backs this up.

Offline James Rondon

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #37 on: Sat Apr 19, 2008 - 14:50:12 »
It is a well known fact that Luther taught men to look to the word of God, much to the dismay of the Roman Catholic church which had developed teachings and practices contrary to the word of God.

Offline Harold

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #38 on: Sat Apr 19, 2008 - 15:09:54 »
Calvin, and the other reformer groups, have a bad track record as far as, believe what I believe, or else.

Are reformer and blituri brothers?

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #39 on: Sat Apr 19, 2008 - 15:57:32 »
I teach it every year when I cover the Reformation and my textbook, which is used in the majority of history classes in the country, backs this up.

So what?  It's the same as seeing history through the eyes of two different countries who are enemies, theose renditions of history will never be the same, and the factual predicates will never be agreed upon.  Majority or minority agreement with either side means nothing.


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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #39 on: Sat Apr 19, 2008 - 15:57:32 »



Offline Harold

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #40 on: Sat Apr 19, 2008 - 16:53:50 »
Calvin, Luther, and Wesley all were in favor of infant baptism.

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Offline James Rondon

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #41 on: Sat Apr 19, 2008 - 19:08:45 »
I teach it every year when I cover the Reformation and my textbook, which is used in the majority of history classes in the country, backs this up.

So what?  It's the same as seeing history through the eyes of two different countries who are enemies, theose renditions of history will never be the same, and the factual predicates will never be agreed upon.  Majority or minority agreement with either side means nothing.

Good points. Not to mention that many have taken to the practice of "revisionism", in order to support their cause.

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #42 on: Sat Apr 19, 2008 - 19:43:01 »
I teach it every year when I cover the Reformation and my textbook, which is used in the majority of history classes in the country, backs this up.

I'm sure a majority of history classes in catholic schools would back you up...

Offline extranos

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #43 on: Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 05:51:47 »
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Actually, Luther encouraged peasants to revolt against their Catholic princes.  However, when Luther realized that the peasants were taking what he was teaching and applying it to the political/social arena, he balked.  Luther's teachings opened up whole can of worms, and not just in the spiritual realm.  When one teaches that everything is up for grabs and that relativism rules, you are always asking for trouble.  The peasants figured, if I can determine on my own what Scripture means and formulate my own doctrines, why wouldn't they think that they should no longer be ruled by a bunch of princes and continue to be tied to the land as serfs.  If you can overturn 1500 years of established doctrine, why not fight against centuries of tyranny and injustice?

This is a well known fact.  I teach it every year when I cover the Reformation and my textbook, which is used in the majority of history classes in the country, backs this up.

Broach,
Then it should be really easy for you to quote Luther to prove your assertion.  I'd like very much to see those quotes posted here, if you don't mind.
The history that I've read tells a different story, which is basically that both sides tried to claim Luther as their own.  Your post seems to be attributing a diabolicalism to Luther that I believe is unwarranted.
Thanks

Offline broach972

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #44 on: Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 08:15:08 »

Broach,
Then it should be really easy for you to quote Luther to prove your assertion.  I'd like very much to see those quotes posted here, if you don't mind.
The history that I've read tells a different story, which is basically that both sides tried to claim Luther as their own.  Your post seems to be attributing a diabolicalism to Luther that I believe is unwarranted.
Thanks



You might want to take a look at this....

http://mars.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wc2/lectures/luther.html

There are many more lectures like this one.

I will even post a section here...

Quote
The priesthood of all believers was never meant to make every man his own prophet. In several areas (Strassburg, Augsburg, Zurich, and Moravia), separate movements of Christian radicalism developed, some passive, some active. Under the inspiration of radical Lutherans who had turned apocalyptic, the latter sort spread their mystic millenarianism through Germany and the Low Countries, and goaded.ed Luther for support. Unlike Luther, these wanted to bring society, not just faith, under the law of the gospel. Some were even prepared to use force to bring the whole society to purity. Naturally, they attracted the lower classes in town and country. Theirs was a Utopian movement and also a vent for class bitterness. Others were less millenarian, suppressing the need to separate the church from worldly society, and emphasizing pacifism and the love-ethic. Luther fulminated against both branches as fiercely as the Catholics, but neither burnings, drownings, nor massacres seemed to halt their spread...

Luther was even more violent in his denunciation of the peasants who demanded ''liberty'' in social terms on the basis of scriptural authority' The German peasantry were in an ambivalent position in the 16th century. Rising prices were in their favor, but the gap between prices for agricultural produce and industrial equipment was growing instead of decreasing. Not that peasants needed many tools. But their returns were not as large or fast as the city merchant's returns, and the growing disparity was irksome. More trying than this, though, were the downward pressures foisted on them by the Knights and magnates. The Knights as a class were threatened with decline because their rents and services, being relatively fixed, fell behind climbing prices. They were eager to reimpose maximum obligations on a peasantry that was eager to escape them. The Peasants War the injustice and oppression of these landlords. Coming as it did in the early states of the Reformation, and encouraged as it was in some areas by convinced Anabaptists, it threatened to drown Luther's work in a torrent of civil strife. At first Luther was noncommittal; he recognized that many of the peasants' grievances were genuine, but as the peasants indulged in indiscriminate pillaging he realized the danger to his own cause and turned against them with extraordinary venom. Princes, he urged, could better merit heaven by smiting, slaying and stabbing rebellious subjects than by prayer. It was said that over 100,000 peasants were killed in battle or executed afterward, and crippling fines were laid upon those who escaped with their lives. From this time the peasantry ceased to count in German politics; princes and magnates had vindicated their power once and for all. Where the revolt had been most vigorous, in Bohemia and Austria, the savage reprisals alienated the peasantry from Luther and the decline of Lutheranism in southern Germany dates from the crushing defeat of the Revolt rather than from the Counter-Reformation.



Luther encouraged the peasantry and ruling classes of Germany to rebel against the Catholic Chruch.   When the peasantry decided to take his teaching a step further, he denounced them and encouraged the ruling class to crush them.  This isn't revisionist history.  This is fact.

If anyone truly believes that the Reformation was purely a religious movement, then you are either naive or in dire need of a history course.

« Last Edit: Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 08:35:39 by broach972 »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #45 on: Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 08:19:53 »

If anyone truly believes that the Reformation was purely a religious movement, then you are either naive or in dire need of a history course.

If anyone truly believes that the Roman Catholic movement from the very outset was purely a religious movement, then you are either naive or in dire need of a history course. 

Offline broach972

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #46 on: Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 08:29:44 »

If anyone truly believes that the Reformation was purely a religious movement, then you are either naive or in dire need of a history course.

If anyone truly believes that the Roman Catholic movement from the very outset was purely a religious movement, then you are either naive or in dire need of a history course. 

It was those history courses that first introduced me to thinking about the Catholic Church... ::smile::

I am not naive to think that the Church as been perfect throughout its history.  It has weathered some sinister figures and harsh times.  The fact that it has survived despite some of its leaders is a testament to its fortitude.  Makes one think.  The fact that is has survived for 2000 years should make one think.

Furthermore, if all you have to grasp is the actions of a few, then I can accept that.  When one fails to discredit its doctrines and teachings, all that is left is history. The fact that the Catholic Church has had sinners is no news to me.  Shocking!  The Church has sinners in it.  Stop the presses!

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #47 on: Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 09:00:20 »

If anyone truly believes that the Reformation was purely a religious movement, then you are either naive or in dire need of a history course.

If anyone truly believes that the Roman Catholic movement from the very outset was purely a religious movement, then you are either naive or in dire need of a history course. 

It was those history courses that first introduced me to thinking about the Catholic Church... ::smile::

I am not naive to think that the Church as been perfect throughout its history.  It has weathered some sinister figures and harsh times.  The fact that it has survived despite some of its leaders is a testament to its fortitude.  Makes one think.  The fact that is has survived for 2000 years should make one think.

Furthermore, if all you have to grasp is the actions of a few, then I can accept that.  When one fails to discredit its doctrines and teachings, all that is left is history. The fact that the Catholic Church has had sinners is no news to me.  Shocking!  The Church has sinners in it.  Stop the presses!

We are not talking about sinners in the church.  We are talking about those at the very highest levels of authority, who claim to have traceable lineage and authority back to the apostles, calling for and condoning the most heinous of atrocities.  The pedophile priests that the current pope is apologizing for look like Mother Teressa in comparison some of those early leaders.

I will agree that in itself does not call into question the faith of the others who are sincere believers in God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  It does call into question the claims of the organization of the church at its very foundation.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #48 on: Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 11:17:27 »

If anyone truly believes that the Reformation was purely a religious movement, then you are either naive or in dire need of a history course.

If anyone truly believes that the Roman Catholic movement from the very outset was purely a religious movement, then you are either naive or in dire need of a history course. 

It was those history courses that first introduced me to thinking about the Catholic Church... ::smile::

I am not naive to think that the Church as been perfect throughout its history.  It has weathered some sinister figures and harsh times.  The fact that it has survived despite some of its leaders is a testament to its fortitude.  Makes one think.  The fact that is has survived for 2000 years should make one think.

Furthermore, if all you have to grasp is the actions of a few, then I can accept that.  When one fails to discredit its doctrines and teachings, all that is left is history. The fact that the Catholic Church has had sinners is no news to me.  Shocking!  The Church has sinners in it.  Stop the presses!

How can one not doubt its doctrines and teachings?  If someone knew nothing about it's doctrines, the way the pope dresses is mockery. What makes him think that grab makes him look Christian? There is no high authority in the real church except for God.

Offline broach972

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #49 on: Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 12:26:44 »

How can one not doubt its doctrines and teachings?  If someone knew nothing about it's doctrines, the way the pope dresses is mockery. What makes him think that grab makes him look Christian? There is no high authority in the real church except for God.

You criticize the Pope for his clothes?  I would like to point out that some Protestant clergy also dress in vestments.  Orthodox priest certainly wear vestments.  I would suggest you research the history of vestments before you make these types of comments.  Are they too making a mockery of the faith?  We are really getting silly here.

Offline James Rondon

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #50 on: Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 12:31:16 »
Just because Protestants do it, doesn't make it right, either.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #51 on: Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 12:52:51 »

How can one not doubt its doctrines and teachings?  If someone knew nothing about it's doctrines, the way the pope dresses is mockery. What makes him think that grab makes him look Christian? There is no high authority in the real church except for God.

You criticize the Pope for his clothes?  I would like to point out that some Protestant clergy also dress in vestments.  Orthodox priest certainly wear vestments.  I would suggest you research the history of vestments before you make these types of comments.  Are they too making a mockery of the faith?  We are really getting silly here.

I think what one wears usually identifies their character.  It's an extention  of who you are or think you are.  It's prideful and wrong to put oneself upon an earthly pedestal.

Offline James Rondon

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #52 on: Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 12:58:35 »

How can one not doubt its doctrines and teachings?  If someone knew nothing about it's doctrines, the way the pope dresses is mockery. What makes him think that grab makes him look Christian? There is no high authority in the real church except for God.

You criticize the Pope for his clothes?

Jesus had a thing or two to say about the garments of the Pharisees.

Offline spurly

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Re: Protestant Atrocities
« Reply #53 on: Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 15:20:27 »
 ::pokingwithstick::  ::frustrated::   

 

     
anything