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Christian Interests => Organized Religion and Religious Movements Discussions => Protestantism => Topic started by: broach972 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 15:38:40

Title: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: broach972 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 15:38:40
I am reminded of the phrase, "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."  Since some on this forum have decided to post about the unfortunate scandals that have plagued the Church during some of its history, I figure that it is only fair to give equal time to our Protestant brothers.  Here is just a few examples:

The Protestant history of persecutions, especially of Catholics, is not pretty.

Martin Luther urged German peasants to rebel, but he switched sides and then urged the Northern German princes to massacre the peasants. There is good reason for this change. Luther knew that the Northern German princes were protecting him, and for Luther to be accused of aiding and abetting the peasants would be fatal to him.

King Henry VIII is responsible for the deaths of over 70,000 Catholics including hundreds of priests and Bishops. He had St. Thomas More executed in 1535. He even ordered the destruction of most of the uncorrupted bodies of saints in England. The only bodies that were not destroyed are the ones taken by Catholics and hidden from the persecutors.

John Calvin, one of the Protestant reformers, viciously persecuted Catholics as heretics. He persecuted others as well, and had a rival critic, Michael Servetus, burned alive in October 1553.

Queen Elizabeth I, had thousands of Catholics put to death in England. She ordered that Catholic Mary Queen of Scots be executed in 1587. She had thousands more killed in Ireland.

Oliver Cromwell is responsible for starting the English civil war and the subsequent beheading of Catholic King Charles I, and for the killing of thousands of Catholics in that war of 1642-1649.  Some Catholics were nailed to trees.

Thousands of Catholics were murdered in Ireland by the English in the 19th century simply because they attended the Catholic Mass. The Protestant English redcoats were also responsible for confiscating the food from the Irish people and for leaving them only with potatoes which were blighted and unfit to eat. In the mid 19th century this caused the deaths by starvation of an estimated 1-1.5 million Irish Catholics, and the emigration of about 2 million more. It was a case of either leave the country or die of starvation.

How many thousands of women were burned at the stake after witch trials, by Protestant witch hunters, over several centuries, and throughout Europe and America? It is estimated that 30,000 went to their deaths in Britain alone, and another 100,000 in Protestant Germany. Interestingly, the Protestant mind-set in those times was that if the woman survived the burning, she was considered not to be a witch. Now just how many innocent women, do you think, survived this horror?

What glass houses we do live in....
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: spurly on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 15:42:58
Yes, there are atrocities on both sides.  I don't think that surprises anyone.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: James Rondon on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 15:43:34
New thread coming soon: Roman Catholic atrocities.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: ConsideringCatholicism on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 15:44:03
Problem is.....not only do Evangelicals / Conservative Protestants fail to recognize their Catholic roots; many deny that they are Protestant.

Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: Charles Sloan on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 15:46:08
New thread coming soon: Roman Catholic atrocities.

I think I could throw something together...
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: James Rondon on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 15:49:53
Problem is.....not only do Evangelicals / Conservative Protestants fail to recognize their Catholic roots; many deny that they are Protestant.

At your request, I have put in a request to the admin to cancel your membership, ConsideringCatholicism. As I mentioned before, if you truly no longer want to be a member here, as you have made mention of at least 4 times now, I suggest that you discontinue posting. Otherwise, your multiple requests seem disingenuous, at best... That is, of course, unless you would like to recant?
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 15:51:36
Wow.  Guess I should go become a Buddhist.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: broach972 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 15:51:44
New thread coming soon: Roman Catholic atrocities.

Go ahead and post them.  This is not the issue for me.  At least we have the guts to acknowledge and discuss our past failings, no matter what they may be.  No doubt that the Church has experienced some dark times in its history.

But according to you and others on this forum, Catholics seem to be the only ones guility of such atrocities or the only one to have experienced such dark times.  We seem to be the only ones that have made past mistakes.  Such hypocrisy.  This is what disturbs me.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: James Rondon on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 15:53:45
Wow.  Guess I should go become a Buddhist.

Or, you could just try to mix Buddhism with Christianity...
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: ConsideringCatholicism on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 15:56:03
New thread coming soon: Roman Catholic atrocities.

Go ahead and post them.  This is not the issue for me.  At least we have the guts to acknowledge and discuss our past failings, no matter what they may be.  No doubt that the Church has experienced some dark times in its history.

But according to you and others on this forum, Catholics seem to be the only ones guility of such atrocities or have experienced such times.  We seem to be the only ones that have made past mistakes.  Such hypocrisy.  This is what disturbs me.

Leave it alone Broach......

Matthew 10:14

"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town."
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: James Rondon on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 15:56:34
New thread coming soon: Roman Catholic atrocities.

Go ahead and post them.  This is not the issue for me.  At least we have the guts to acknowledge and discuss our past failings, no matter what they may be.  No doubt that the Church has experienced some dark times in its history.

But according to you and others on this forum, Catholics seem to be the only ones guility of such atrocities or the only one to have experienced such dark times.  We seem to be the only ones that have made past mistakes.  Such hypocrisy.  This is what disturbs me.

What disturbs me is the fact that if someone had started a Roman Catholic atrocities thread first, you would have immediately flagged the post. History proves this. Yet, you are starting this thread. Such hypocrisy. This is what disturbs me.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: James Rondon on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 15:57:41
New thread coming soon: Roman Catholic atrocities.

Go ahead and post them.  This is not the issue for me.  At least we have the guts to acknowledge and discuss our past failings, no matter what they may be.  No doubt that the Church has experienced some dark times in its history.

But according to you and others on this forum, Catholics seem to be the only ones guility of such atrocities or have experienced such times.  We seem to be the only ones that have made past mistakes.  Such hypocrisy.  This is what disturbs me.

Leave it alone Broach......

Matthew 10:14

"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town."

By the way, ConsideringCatholicism, for the sake of clarification... By saying that you want your membership at GCM cancelled, does that mean you would like to have all of your user names cancelled? Or just the ConsideringCatholicism account?
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: Charles Sloan on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 15:59:11
New thread coming soon: Roman Catholic atrocities.

Go ahead and post them.  This is not the issue for me.  At least we have the guts to acknowledge and discuss our past failings, no matter what they may be.  No doubt that the Church has experienced some dark times in its history.

But according to you and others on this forum, Catholics seem to be the only ones guility of such atrocities or the only one to have experienced such dark times.  We seem to be the only ones that have made past mistakes.  Such hypocrisy.  This is what disturbs me.

What disturbs me is the fact that if someone had started a Roman Catholic atrocities thread first, you would have immediately flagged the post. History proves this. Yet, you are starting this thread. Such hypocrisy. This is what disturbs me.

Isn't that the truth.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: ConsideringCatholicism on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 15:59:45
Problem is.....not only do Evangelicals / Conservative Protestants fail to recognize their Catholic roots; many deny that they are Protestant.

At your request, I have put in a request to the admin to cancel your membership, ConsideringCatholicism. As I mentioned before, if you truly no longer want to be a member here, as you have made mention of at least 4 times now, I suggest that you discontinue posting. Otherwise, your multiple requests seem disingenuous, at best... That is, of course, unless you would like to recant?

I will quit posting when I choose to stop, James.  My quest for my membership to be canceled stands.  You do not get to reframe my behavior or my intentions. 
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: ConsideringCatholicism on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 16:01:19
New thread coming soon: Roman Catholic atrocities.

Go ahead and post them.  This is not the issue for me.  At least we have the guts to acknowledge and discuss our past failings, no matter what they may be.  No doubt that the Church has experienced some dark times in its history.

But according to you and others on this forum, Catholics seem to be the only ones guility of such atrocities or have experienced such times.  We seem to be the only ones that have made past mistakes.  Such hypocrisy.  This is what disturbs me.

Leave it alone Broach......

Matthew 10:14

"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town."

By the way, ConsideringCatholicism, for the sake of clarification... By saying that you want your membership at GCM cancelled, does that mean you would like to have all of your user names cancelled? Or just the ConsideringCatholicism account?

What sre you asking me James?  It sounds like you have some information that you are not sharing?
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: ConsideringCatholicism on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 16:03:00
Have you been gossiping Charles?
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: broach972 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 16:05:12
New thread coming soon: Roman Catholic atrocities.

Go ahead and post them.  This is not the issue for me.  At least we have the guts to acknowledge and discuss our past failings, no matter what they may be.  No doubt that the Church has experienced some dark times in its history.

But according to you and others on this forum, Catholics seem to be the only ones guility of such atrocities or the only one to have experienced such dark times.  We seem to be the only ones that have made past mistakes.  Such hypocrisy.  This is what disturbs me.

What disturbs me is the fact that if someone had started a Roman Catholic atrocities thread first, you would have immediately flagged the post. History proves this. Yet, you are starting this thread. Such hypocrisy. This is what disturbs me.

Excuse me.  I decided to do this once a moderator stated that Reformer's post "The Holy Father and Mormon Polygamy" was well within the rules, when it clearly it is not.  I finally realized that two can play this game.  So, don't lecture me on what is acceptable and what is not.  I am sick and tired of my faith being maligned on a constant basis.  Reformer's post has sent me over the edge.  If what he stated is acceptable, then it is a free-for-all as far as I am concerned.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 16:06:43
Did you know that if two Chinese people get married, their children will not be English?

Yep....two Wong's don't make a Wright.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: James Rondon on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 16:08:03
New thread coming soon: Roman Catholic atrocities.

Go ahead and post them.  This is not the issue for me.  At least we have the guts to acknowledge and discuss our past failings, no matter what they may be.  No doubt that the Church has experienced some dark times in its history.

But according to you and others on this forum, Catholics seem to be the only ones guility of such atrocities or have experienced such times.  We seem to be the only ones that have made past mistakes.  Such hypocrisy.  This is what disturbs me.

Leave it alone Broach......

Matthew 10:14

"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town."

By the way, ConsideringCatholicism, for the sake of clarification... By saying that you want your membership at GCM cancelled, does that mean you would like to have all of your user names cancelled? Or just the ConsideringCatholicism account?

What sre you asking me James?  It sounds like you have some information that you are not sharing?

I could ask you the same question.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: broach972 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 16:09:41
Did you know that if two Chinese people get married, their children will not be English?

Yep....two Wong's don't make a Wright.

I agree but there comes a time when one must fight fire with fire.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: James Rondon on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 16:10:07
New thread coming soon: Roman Catholic atrocities.

Go ahead and post them.  This is not the issue for me.  At least we have the guts to acknowledge and discuss our past failings, no matter what they may be.  No doubt that the Church has experienced some dark times in its history.

But according to you and others on this forum, Catholics seem to be the only ones guility of such atrocities or the only one to have experienced such dark times.  We seem to be the only ones that have made past mistakes.  Such hypocrisy.  This is what disturbs me.

What disturbs me is the fact that if someone had started a Roman Catholic atrocities thread first, you would have immediately flagged the post. History proves this. Yet, you are starting this thread. Such hypocrisy. This is what disturbs me.

Excuse me.  I decided to do this once a moderator stated that Reformer's post "The Holy Father and Mormon Polygamy" was well within the rules, when it clearly it is not.  I finally realized that two can play this game.  So, don't lecture me on what is acceptable and what is not.  I am sick and tired of my faith being maligned on a constant basis.  Reformer's post has sent me over the edge.  If what he stated is acceptable, then it is a free-for-all as far as I am concerned.

I expect your flag count to drop significantly, then. Especially if you take the position that it is acceptable to render "evil" for "evil".
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: NewsWatcher on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 16:10:28
I have to ask is this how Christians act?
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: James Rondon on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 16:11:44
Good question.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: broach972 on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 16:12:45
I have to ask is this how Christians act?

Nope.  But I have turned the cheek one too many times.  Getting slapped in the face on a constant basis is getting old.  Reformer's post was quite a punch.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: NewsWatcher on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 16:16:25
I am not anyone important around here, but I don't think this is Christlike conversation at all  and even something that is beneficial to these boards.

It should be nipped in the bud as far as I am concerned.

Mike
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: Charles Sloan on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 16:19:06
I posted the counterpart to this topic here:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php?topic=25704.msg490505#msg490505

I thought it would be honest if both sides were looked at equally.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: Nevertheless on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 16:22:25
Salaried preachers, Catholics, and President Bush all have this in common: Reformer doesn't like them and isn't shy about sharing his dislike with the world. If you are one of those three, I'd recommend avoiding his posts. It'd prevent heartburn all around.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: DCR on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 16:22:41
This is all very pathetic.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: Charles Sloan on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 16:26:16
This is all very pathetic.

You know whats pathetic...
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: DCR on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 16:27:32
Oh yes.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: Jimbob on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 16:33:27
Salaried preachers, Catholics, and President Bush all have this in common: Reformer doesn't like them and isn't shy about sharing his dislike with the world. If you are one of those three, I'd recommend avoiding his posts. It'd prevent heartburn all around.
So he must have had a near heart attack watching EWTN's coverage of the papal visit to the White House! rofl
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: spurly on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 16:33:46
"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."  -- Jesus

"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.  The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me."  -  Jesus
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: ConsideringCatholicism on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 16:43:15
"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."  -- Jesus

"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.  The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me."  -  Jesus

Great post Spurly - and apparently about 6 months too late
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: James Rondon on Fri Apr 18, 2008 - 18:06:04
6 months? What do you mean by that?
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: kensington on Sat Apr 19, 2008 - 13:24:16
Did you know that if two Chinese people get married, their children will not be English?

Yep....two Wong's don't make a Wright.

I agree but there comes a time when one must fight fire with fire.

Only trained properly , outfitted, dedicated firemen must try this... everyone else... will crash and burn.  And even they will tell you to try fighting fire with water first or the approved fire fighting equipment, such as an extinguisher.  Fighting fire with fire is reserved for the trained professional.  FYI.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: extranos on Sat Apr 19, 2008 - 13:45:18
Quote
Martin Luther urged German peasants to rebel, but he switched sides and then urged the Northern German princes to massacre the peasants. There is good reason for this change. Luther knew that the Northern German princes were protecting him, and for Luther to be accused of aiding and abetting the peasants would be fatal to him.

Broach,
Do you have any proof of this assertion?  I'm sure your intention is to be truthful, but I think you are referring to Thomas Müntzer,  not Martin Luther.  Luther did not encourage a revolt, nor did he "switch sides".  He actually admonished both sides to refrain from violence and encouraged a peaceful transition in German social conditions.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: broach972 on Sat Apr 19, 2008 - 14:42:54
Quote
Martin Luther urged German peasants to rebel, but he switched sides and then urged the Northern German princes to massacre the peasants. There is good reason for this change. Luther knew that the Northern German princes were protecting him, and for Luther to be accused of aiding and abetting the peasants would be fatal to him.

Broach,
Do you have any proof of this assertion?  I'm sure your intention is to be truthful, but I think you are referring to Thomas Müntzer,  not Martin Luther.  Luther did not encourage a revolt, nor did he "switch sides".  He actually admonished both sides to refrain from violence and encouraged a peaceful transition in German social conditions.

Actually, Luther encouraged peasants to revolt against their Catholic princes.  However, when Luther realized that the peasants were taking what he was teaching and applying it to the political/social arena, he balked.  Luther's teachings opened up whole can of worms, and not just in the spiritual realm.  When one teaches that everything is up for grabs and that relativism rules, you are always asking for trouble.  The peasants figured, if I can determine on my own what Scripture means and formulate my own doctrines, why wouldn't they think that they should no longer be ruled by a bunch of princes and continue to be tied to the land as serfs.  If you can overturn 1500 years of established doctrine, why not fight against centuries of tyranny and injustice?

This is a well known fact.  I teach it every year when I cover the Reformation and my textbook, which is used in the majority of history classes in the country, backs this up.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: James Rondon on Sat Apr 19, 2008 - 14:50:12
It is a well known fact that Luther taught men to look to the word of God, much to the dismay of the Roman Catholic church which had developed teachings and practices contrary to the word of God.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: Harold on Sat Apr 19, 2008 - 15:09:54
Calvin, and the other reformer groups, have a bad track record as far as, believe what I believe, or else.

Are reformer and blituri brothers?

FTL
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: da525382 on Sat Apr 19, 2008 - 15:57:32
I teach it every year when I cover the Reformation and my textbook, which is used in the majority of history classes in the country, backs this up.

So what?  It's the same as seeing history through the eyes of two different countries who are enemies, theose renditions of history will never be the same, and the factual predicates will never be agreed upon.  Majority or minority agreement with either side means nothing.

Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: Harold on Sat Apr 19, 2008 - 16:53:50
Calvin, Luther, and Wesley all were in favor of infant baptism.

FTL
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: James Rondon on Sat Apr 19, 2008 - 19:08:45
I teach it every year when I cover the Reformation and my textbook, which is used in the majority of history classes in the country, backs this up.

So what?  It's the same as seeing history through the eyes of two different countries who are enemies, theose renditions of history will never be the same, and the factual predicates will never be agreed upon.  Majority or minority agreement with either side means nothing.

Good points. Not to mention that many have taken to the practice of "revisionism", in order to support their cause.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: Charles Sloan on Sat Apr 19, 2008 - 19:43:01
I teach it every year when I cover the Reformation and my textbook, which is used in the majority of history classes in the country, backs this up.

I'm sure a majority of history classes in catholic schools would back you up...
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: extranos on Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 05:51:47
Quote
Actually, Luther encouraged peasants to revolt against their Catholic princes.  However, when Luther realized that the peasants were taking what he was teaching and applying it to the political/social arena, he balked.  Luther's teachings opened up whole can of worms, and not just in the spiritual realm.  When one teaches that everything is up for grabs and that relativism rules, you are always asking for trouble.  The peasants figured, if I can determine on my own what Scripture means and formulate my own doctrines, why wouldn't they think that they should no longer be ruled by a bunch of princes and continue to be tied to the land as serfs.  If you can overturn 1500 years of established doctrine, why not fight against centuries of tyranny and injustice?

This is a well known fact.  I teach it every year when I cover the Reformation and my textbook, which is used in the majority of history classes in the country, backs this up.

Broach,
Then it should be really easy for you to quote Luther to prove your assertion.  I'd like very much to see those quotes posted here, if you don't mind.
The history that I've read tells a different story, which is basically that both sides tried to claim Luther as their own.  Your post seems to be attributing a diabolicalism to Luther that I believe is unwarranted.
Thanks
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: broach972 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 08:15:08

Broach,
Then it should be really easy for you to quote Luther to prove your assertion.  I'd like very much to see those quotes posted here, if you don't mind.
The history that I've read tells a different story, which is basically that both sides tried to claim Luther as their own.  Your post seems to be attributing a diabolicalism to Luther that I believe is unwarranted.
Thanks



You might want to take a look at this....

http://mars.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wc2/lectures/luther.html

There are many more lectures like this one.

I will even post a section here...

Quote
The priesthood of all believers was never meant to make every man his own prophet. In several areas (Strassburg, Augsburg, Zurich, and Moravia), separate movements of Christian radicalism developed, some passive, some active. Under the inspiration of radical Lutherans who had turned apocalyptic, the latter sort spread their mystic millenarianism through Germany and the Low Countries, and goaded.ed Luther for support. Unlike Luther, these wanted to bring society, not just faith, under the law of the gospel. Some were even prepared to use force to bring the whole society to purity. Naturally, they attracted the lower classes in town and country. Theirs was a Utopian movement and also a vent for class bitterness. Others were less millenarian, suppressing the need to separate the church from worldly society, and emphasizing pacifism and the love-ethic. Luther fulminated against both branches as fiercely as the Catholics, but neither burnings, drownings, nor massacres seemed to halt their spread...

Luther was even more violent in his denunciation of the peasants who demanded ''liberty'' in social terms on the basis of scriptural authority' The German peasantry were in an ambivalent position in the 16th century. Rising prices were in their favor, but the gap between prices for agricultural produce and industrial equipment was growing instead of decreasing. Not that peasants needed many tools. But their returns were not as large or fast as the city merchant's returns, and the growing disparity was irksome. More trying than this, though, were the downward pressures foisted on them by the Knights and magnates. The Knights as a class were threatened with decline because their rents and services, being relatively fixed, fell behind climbing prices. They were eager to reimpose maximum obligations on a peasantry that was eager to escape them. The Peasants War the injustice and oppression of these landlords. Coming as it did in the early states of the Reformation, and encouraged as it was in some areas by convinced Anabaptists, it threatened to drown Luther's work in a torrent of civil strife. At first Luther was noncommittal; he recognized that many of the peasants' grievances were genuine, but as the peasants indulged in indiscriminate pillaging he realized the danger to his own cause and turned against them with extraordinary venom. Princes, he urged, could better merit heaven by smiting, slaying and stabbing rebellious subjects than by prayer. It was said that over 100,000 peasants were killed in battle or executed afterward, and crippling fines were laid upon those who escaped with their lives. From this time the peasantry ceased to count in German politics; princes and magnates had vindicated their power once and for all. Where the revolt had been most vigorous, in Bohemia and Austria, the savage reprisals alienated the peasantry from Luther and the decline of Lutheranism in southern Germany dates from the crushing defeat of the Revolt rather than from the Counter-Reformation.



Luther encouraged the peasantry and ruling classes of Germany to rebel against the Catholic Chruch.   When the peasantry decided to take his teaching a step further, he denounced them and encouraged the ruling class to crush them.  This isn't revisionist history.  This is fact.

If anyone truly believes that the Reformation was purely a religious movement, then you are either naive or in dire need of a history course.

Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: Jimmy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 08:19:53

If anyone truly believes that the Reformation was purely a religious movement, then you are either naive or in dire need of a history course.

If anyone truly believes that the Roman Catholic movement from the very outset was purely a religious movement, then you are either naive or in dire need of a history course. 
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: broach972 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 08:29:44

If anyone truly believes that the Reformation was purely a religious movement, then you are either naive or in dire need of a history course.

If anyone truly believes that the Roman Catholic movement from the very outset was purely a religious movement, then you are either naive or in dire need of a history course. 

It was those history courses that first introduced me to thinking about the Catholic Church... ::smile::

I am not naive to think that the Church as been perfect throughout its history.  It has weathered some sinister figures and harsh times.  The fact that it has survived despite some of its leaders is a testament to its fortitude.  Makes one think.  The fact that is has survived for 2000 years should make one think.

Furthermore, if all you have to grasp is the actions of a few, then I can accept that.  When one fails to discredit its doctrines and teachings, all that is left is history. The fact that the Catholic Church has had sinners is no news to me.  Shocking!  The Church has sinners in it.  Stop the presses!
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: Jimmy on Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 09:00:20

If anyone truly believes that the Reformation was purely a religious movement, then you are either naive or in dire need of a history course.

If anyone truly believes that the Roman Catholic movement from the very outset was purely a religious movement, then you are either naive or in dire need of a history course. 

It was those history courses that first introduced me to thinking about the Catholic Church... ::smile::

I am not naive to think that the Church as been perfect throughout its history.  It has weathered some sinister figures and harsh times.  The fact that it has survived despite some of its leaders is a testament to its fortitude.  Makes one think.  The fact that is has survived for 2000 years should make one think.

Furthermore, if all you have to grasp is the actions of a few, then I can accept that.  When one fails to discredit its doctrines and teachings, all that is left is history. The fact that the Catholic Church has had sinners is no news to me.  Shocking!  The Church has sinners in it.  Stop the presses!

We are not talking about sinners in the church.  We are talking about those at the very highest levels of authority, who claim to have traceable lineage and authority back to the apostles, calling for and condoning the most heinous of atrocities.  The pedophile priests that the current pope is apologizing for look like Mother Teressa in comparison some of those early leaders.

I will agree that in itself does not call into question the faith of the others who are sincere believers in God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  It does call into question the claims of the organization of the church at its very foundation.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: Bonnie on Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 11:17:27

If anyone truly believes that the Reformation was purely a religious movement, then you are either naive or in dire need of a history course.

If anyone truly believes that the Roman Catholic movement from the very outset was purely a religious movement, then you are either naive or in dire need of a history course. 

It was those history courses that first introduced me to thinking about the Catholic Church... ::smile::

I am not naive to think that the Church as been perfect throughout its history.  It has weathered some sinister figures and harsh times.  The fact that it has survived despite some of its leaders is a testament to its fortitude.  Makes one think.  The fact that is has survived for 2000 years should make one think.

Furthermore, if all you have to grasp is the actions of a few, then I can accept that.  When one fails to discredit its doctrines and teachings, all that is left is history. The fact that the Catholic Church has had sinners is no news to me.  Shocking!  The Church has sinners in it.  Stop the presses!

How can one not doubt its doctrines and teachings?  If someone knew nothing about it's doctrines, the way the pope dresses is mockery. What makes him think that grab makes him look Christian? There is no high authority in the real church except for God.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: broach972 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 12:26:44

How can one not doubt its doctrines and teachings?  If someone knew nothing about it's doctrines, the way the pope dresses is mockery. What makes him think that grab makes him look Christian? There is no high authority in the real church except for God.

You criticize the Pope for his clothes?  I would like to point out that some Protestant clergy also dress in vestments.  Orthodox priest certainly wear vestments.  I would suggest you research the history of vestments before you make these types of comments.  Are they too making a mockery of the faith?  We are really getting silly here.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: James Rondon on Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 12:31:16
Just because Protestants do it, doesn't make it right, either.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: Bonnie on Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 12:52:51

How can one not doubt its doctrines and teachings?  If someone knew nothing about it's doctrines, the way the pope dresses is mockery. What makes him think that grab makes him look Christian? There is no high authority in the real church except for God.

You criticize the Pope for his clothes?  I would like to point out that some Protestant clergy also dress in vestments.  Orthodox priest certainly wear vestments.  I would suggest you research the history of vestments before you make these types of comments.  Are they too making a mockery of the faith?  We are really getting silly here.

I think what one wears usually identifies their character.  It's an extention  of who you are or think you are.  It's prideful and wrong to put oneself upon an earthly pedestal.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: James Rondon on Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 12:58:35

How can one not doubt its doctrines and teachings?  If someone knew nothing about it's doctrines, the way the pope dresses is mockery. What makes him think that grab makes him look Christian? There is no high authority in the real church except for God.

You criticize the Pope for his clothes?

Jesus had a thing or two to say about the garments of the Pharisees.
Title: Re: Protestant Atrocities
Post by: spurly on Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 15:20:27
 ::pokingwithstick::  ::frustrated::