GCM Home | Bible Search | Rules | Donate | Bookstore | RSS | Facebook | Twitter

Author Topic: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.  (Read 9990 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline chestertonrules

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 36
    • View Profile
Re: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2011, 09:40:44 PM »


You say "The Roman Church doesn't say you need to be a member of the Roman Church to be saved either." Does "United to the Pope" clarify it a bit for you?


Only if you promise to admit you're wrong and stop telling people this after I prove it.  ::smile::


So you're admitting they've changed their rules, or reformulated them as they call
it. Why would they need to do that if they were right to begin with?

Do they now denounce what Pope Benedict said here in "The New York Times?"

Pope Benedict: "Other Christian denominations not true churches..."
 
"You have been given by your baptism entrance into the only true religion upon earth, the Roman Catholic Church under My Son, Jesus.



Other Christian churches are not true churches.  They are Catholics who are not in full communion with the Church.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2011, 09:40:44 PM »

larry2

  • Guest
Re: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2011, 10:57:53 PM »


Also they weren't wrong it was different situations of different times which I explained to Josiah. 
 

Sorry but I don't buy it. No, that is not entirely the truth; I am not sorry that I see the truth. Back to indulgences, and changes in doctrines as the winds of fortune blow.

I will admit the RCC has many works, much religiousness, and grandeur above any other, but as Revelation 2:19 judges her I have to agree. "I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first." If religious ceremony will define her even to the wearing of cute little red slippers, she is fine indeed.

There remains a warning to those of her that really are born of God within her ranks, and that is in Revelation 18:4. "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." You do not have to wait until that terrible time to leave; you can come out now, learn of the riches you can have in Christ, and even learn that you are saved right now.
 ::smile::

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2011, 10:57:53 PM »

larry2

  • Guest
Re: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2011, 11:29:30 PM »

Other Christian churches are not true churches.  They are Catholics who are not in full communion with the Church.


I do not know why, but I had a more detailed reply to this profound religious statement of yours, but just when I went to post it the site went off air. Evidently God is watching my mouth for me, and it certainly needs it at times.

I will just say, considering what you just posted that you have absolutely no clue as to what the true Church is, and then I think if you do answer it will be a programmed speech from some RCC catechism you read.

Offline chestertonrules

  • Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3210
  • Manna: 36
    • View Profile
Re: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2011, 05:38:54 AM »

Other Christian churches are not true churches.  They are Catholics who are not in full communion with the Church.


I do not know why, but I had a more detailed reply to this profound religious statement of yours, but just when I went to post it the site went off air. Evidently God is watching my mouth for me, and it certainly needs it at times.

I will just say, considering what you just posted that you have absolutely no clue as to what the true Church is, and then I think if you do answer it will be a programmed speech from some RCC catechism you read.

We just disagree.  I think Jesus started a single Church with authority and succsssion.  You don't.

I once believed as you do but the evidence and the Holy Spirit have led me to a different conclusion.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2011, 05:38:54 AM »

Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
    • View Profile
Re: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2011, 06:17:17 AM »
That's too bad. So the idea that the Catholic Church who has spread the Gospel to the furthest reaches of the globe teach that you are all going to burn in hell is what you view as Truth over the actual Truth that we view you as brothers and sisters in Christ although wrong about a lot of things who will see heaven which is horrid lie from the pit of hell? Really? I guess.

Anyway.

You can hate indulgences to you very core however there is nothing sinful about promoting charity and good works. IMHO for protestants who like to paint an mural of the Vatican with seven heads and ten horns I'm sure there should be some more horrible than promoting charity. The big bad vatican wolf must be doing more than promoting charity as what you all claim the most corrupt and black faith on the planet.

In any event this is all meaningless. The Church is not selling indulgences so I could careless about the objections of anti-catholic protestants.

Christian Forums and Message Board

Re: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2011, 06:17:17 AM »



Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
    • View Profile
Re: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2011, 06:24:09 AM »
And that is the Truth. You are just mad because it doesn't support the picture you want to portray the Catholic Church as.

There were no protestants. Every branch of Christianity were churches led by Apostolic Successors. They all acknowledge the primacy of the Roman Pontiff just to the same extent as the Latin Churches.

There were no protestants, Larry.

Say and believe what you want but the facts are the facts and like I said before;

The Roman Church doesn't say you need to be a member of the Roman Church to be saved either.


<CHECKMATE>

Offline Ben

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 768
  • Manna: 63
    • View Profile
Re: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2011, 06:42:24 AM »
The Church is not selling indulgences so I could care less about the objections of anti-catholic protestants.

My dear Lighthammer I see you STILL have your hear buried in the sand and refuse to believe that the RCC is spreading out and out lies that one CAN buy favors from The Roman Church i.e. The "body of Christ" with "charitable contributions" or in other words, money.  And don't try and give me any baloney that a "charitable contribution" means helping a little old lady across the street.  I get requests for "charitable contributions" just about every day and there are little boxes you can check with the amount of your "charitable contribution" like $20.00 - $50.00 - $100.00 - $1000.00 or simply "amount" but I have yet to see a box that says if you can't give money please use the blank space provided below to write in the good work you have done so we can give you credit.

Ben

Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
    • View Profile
Re: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2011, 07:26:48 AM »
Ben,

Your words are valid as opinion only. No one is taking money for indulgences anymore. I'm sorry we're not as corrupt as you all want to say. Or to indulge your paranoia; I'm sorry our corruption isn't as open as you all would like.

larry2

  • Guest
Re: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2011, 07:39:06 AM »


Other Christian churches are not true churches.  They are Catholics who are not in full communion with the Church.



I do not know why, but I had a more detailed reply to this profound religious statement of yours, but just when I went to post it the site went off air. Evidently God is watching my mouth for me, and it certainly needs it at times.

I will just say, considering what you just posted that you have absolutely no clue as to what the true Church is, and then I think if you do answer it will be a programmed speech from some RCC catechism you read.




We just disagree.  I think Jesus started a single Church with authority and succsssion.  You don't.

I once believed as you do but the evidence and the Holy Spirit have led me to a different conclusion.



And you're blaming the Holy Spirit for the dribble you're putting forth here?  ::frown::

Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
    • View Profile
Re: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2011, 07:49:55 AM »


Other Christian churches are not true churches.  They are Catholics who are not in full communion with the Church.



I do not know why, but I had a more detailed reply to this profound religious statement of yours, but just when I went to post it the site went off air. Evidently God is watching my mouth for me, and it certainly needs it at times.

I will just say, considering what you just posted that you have absolutely no clue as to what the true Church is, and then I think if you do answer it will be a programmed speech from some RCC catechism you read.




We just disagree.  I think Jesus started a single Church with authority and succsssion.  You don't.

I once believed as you do but the evidence and the Holy Spirit have led me to a different conclusion.



And you're blaming the Holy Spirit for the dribble you're putting forth here?  ::frown::


He's saying the influence of the Holy Spirit isn't dominating the protestant denomination when it comes to official doctrine. That is why you all disagree on any and everything that is Christian. Man made reasoning and wisdom is what prevails. In the Apostolic Faith there is no such dominance. What we teach as official doctrine is what we recieve from the Holy Ghost just as our founders did so at the Council of Jerusale in Acts.


Offline Josiah

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1871
  • Manna: 80
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2011, 07:52:40 AM »
They haven't changed anything


I think this contradicts what you've been saying.   Quotes have been given and, completely evading the clear verbatim words, your response has been "But now it's DIFFERENT!"   Which is it?  The same or changed?



Quote
No Protestant Church is the true church. You guys are too young, too contrasting and deviate too greatly from the Early Church.

1.  I don't know of any denomination that claims to be the one, holy, catholic communion of saints except for the RCC, LDS (and of course, each one of the cults known to me).   The institutional, denominational paradigm is not Protestant, we tend to believe that Christians are people and that the gathering, the communion of Christians is thus also people - not a denomination.

2.  Deviate too much from the early Christians?   You mean like the DOGMA of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary - unheard of among the early Christians?   You mean like the DOGMAS of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary - unheard of among the early Christians (and still among about half of all Christians)?  You mean like the DOGMAS of the Infallibility of the Roman Pontiff and Transubstantiation - unheard of among the early Christians (and still among half of all Christians)?   You mean all the doctrines unique to the RCC, the ones that define the RCC, all those entirely unheard of among the early Christians?  






.

Offline Ben

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 768
  • Manna: 63
    • View Profile
Re: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2011, 08:00:37 AM »
Copy, "I think Jesus started a single Church with authority and succsssion."  You are wrong.  Matt 28:18 "Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."  Note He didn't say all authority has been given to the RCC.  The word "succession" is not found in the Bible. It is another word dreamed up by the RCC to show they are "it" and they are not 'it."

Ben

Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
    • View Profile
Re: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2011, 08:27:09 AM »
Quote
I think this contradicts what you've been saying.   Quotes have been given and, completely evading the clear verbatim words, your response has been "But now it's DIFFERENT!"   Which is it?  The same or changed?


Yea to be 100% honest I think I see your point. Before there were any protestants you had to be in full communion with the Church to be saved because the Church set the mandates of Christ as its standards for such and Christianity was one house. However after the Rreformation, Protestant Christians were fulfilling the requisistes outside of the established community and the Church taught that salvation was no longer found in just the established community because Christianity was now more than just the One, Holy, Catholic Church.

Once believers were believing apart from the authority of the apostolic successors the established hierchy kept with the teachings of Christ when the apostles tried to keep a man from doing good works in the name of Christ. Christ taught that just because someone is not of the apostolic community does not mean that they can't be saved. Once He spoke the apostles pursued the matter no further. That is EXACTLY what the Church did. Once there were christians doing things in the name of Christ apart from the apostolic community the Church did not teach that they were anything but saved Christians.

Quote
1.  I don't know of any denomination that claims to be the one, holy, catholic communion of saints except for the RCC, LDS (and of course, each one of the cults known to me).   The institutional, denominational paradigm is not Protestant, we tend to believe that Christians are people and that the gathering, the communion of Christians is thus also people - not a denomination.


People rally under names and titles. First was Christian. Then there were Christians teaching things apart from the leadership of the Twelve so "Catholic" was assumed to distinguished between the faithful and the heretics. Then when the successors split the two took on the names of Eastern Catholic (b.k.a. Orthodox) and Roman Catholic. The Oriental Orthodox Churches are in communion with the Eastern Orthdox Church and the Assyrian Churches catholic as well.

Quote
You mean like the DOGMA of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary - unheard of among the early Christians?   


Unheard and unrecorded are two different things. But yes thats one. The earliest recorded belief concerning the Theotokos perpetual virginity says that she is such a perpetual virgin. The Protovoelium of James refers to her as a "virgin of the Lord".

Quote
You mean like the DOGMAS of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary - unheard of among the early Christians (and still among about half of all Christians)?

Yes of course she was the human Holy of Holies everyone knew she was sinless to have had born God into the world.

Quote
You mean like the DOGMAS of the Infallibility of the Roman Pontiff and Transubstantiation - unheard of among the early Christians (and still among half of all Christians)?

Well you want find the title "Roman Pontiff" anywhere in the Bible but you will find its original holder Peter and you will refer to how he infallibily declared that all food was clean.  The Real Prescence is born from the mouth of Christ in regards to what He says about His own Supper and what He calls the bread and wine.

It is protestants claim to "clarify" what God said so plainly to interfere symbolism to a very literal statement.

Quote
You mean all the doctrines unique to the RCC, the ones that define the RCC, all those entirely unheard of among the early Christians? 


Well yea pretty much. They are also shared by the Orthodox and Assyrian Churches which all three together are the oldest forms of Christianity on the planet.

Offline LightHammer

  • Defender of the Faith
  • Global Moderator
  • Legendary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8424
  • Manna: 273
  • Gender: Male
  • I.C.T.H.Y.S.
    • View Profile
Re: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2011, 08:29:11 AM »
Copy, "I think Jesus started a single Church with authority and succsssion."  You are wrong.  Matt 28:18 "Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."  Note He didn't say all authority has been given to the RCC.  The word "succession" is not found in the Bible. It is another word dreamed up by the RCC to show they are "it" and they are not 'it."

Ben

Well thats a pretty limited way to look at the Bible. By all accounts the word Trinity isn't in the Bible either that doesn't mean it is described clearly in it.

The first instance of apostolic succession occurs in Acts with the selection of Matthias.

larry2

  • Guest
Re: whats wrong about these two statements and is your church catholic enough.
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2011, 08:33:22 AM »

There were no protestants, Larry.


There was no Roman Church either. If you ever get over your present thinking you'll realize that the Apostle John wrote letters to the church in or at seven different locations.

I can just imagine the horror of those early disciples to have been called Roman Catholics. That kind of stuff appeals to the flesh, but not to God. Jesus even had Paul utter these following words over such foolishness. 1 Corinthians 3:3-4. "For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4  For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Today Paul would instead of saying I am of Paul or Apollos, would be saying you carnal ones that call yourselves something other than the body of Christ; shame on you prideful bunch of carnal flesh following believers.

Remember that for God to fulfill the righteousness of the law in us, we cannot be walking after the flesh (Carnality) but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4. But just as Paul said in 2 Corinthians 11:3, But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.