Author Topic: When did God leave the reformation?  (Read 2483 times)

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Offline marcus

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When did God leave the reformation?
« on: Thu May 05, 2011 - 04:49:52 »
I have been reading up about the Protestant reformation, and one thing that shocks me is the blood shed and persecutions.....by the reforming groups! They turned out to be no different than the system which they were breaking free from. People burned slowly with green wood(maybe some sulphur thrown in for good measure!) A Head cut of a child for striking it's parents, drowning other believers for holding to a different form of baptism, forced conversions, etc etc etc...the list goes on and on and on. These acts were carried out, or sanctioned, by well known reformers.
 Therefore, when did God leave the building???
« Last Edit: Thu May 05, 2011 - 05:23:44 by marcus »

p.rehbein

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Re: When did God leave the reformation?
« Reply #1 on: Thu May 05, 2011 - 07:09:30 »
could you offer some context?  Who?  When?  Where?

Who exactly were doing these things?
When were they doing them?
Where did these events take place?

 ::shrug::

Offline marcus

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Re: When did God leave the reformation?
« Reply #2 on: Thu May 05, 2011 - 11:41:29 »
The sources are numerous, a quick check on the protestant reformation, and M.Servetus, will enlighten you...
"A man was banished from the city for three months because he heard an ass bray and said jestingly, 'He prays a beautiful Psalm'.... Three men who had laughed during a sermon were imprisoned for three days.... Three children were punished because they remained outside of a church to eat some cakes.... A child was whipped publicly for calling his mother a thief.... A girl who struck her parents was beheaded to vindicate the dignity of the Fifth Commandment...A person was imprisoned for four days because he wanted to call his child Claude [the name of a Catholic saint] instead of Abraham" (J.H. Merle, The History of the Protestant Church in Hungary, 1871, Vol. VII.)

 The story of the burning of Michael Servetus is well known, even though some people bury their head in the sand concerning it, this statement by Calvin is quite shocking....
  "I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed upon him" (Letters of John Calvin, p. 82)
    Also......  
  "I shall never permit him to depart alive, provided my authority be of any avail" (Letters of John Calvin, pg. 82;p174.   Also, another vile revelation of Calvins heart....
  "Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard". David Benedict, A general history of the Baptist denomination(Gallatin church history research& archives,1985). vol1:186
  I dont believe I need to show quotes concerning the murderous acts, and statements, of the reformers concerning the murder of the Annabaptists, and all because they didn't believe in infant baptism, that is quite horrific! History is full of these facts.
  Christs way was much different than Calvins etc, and not forgetting Johns words 1st John 4 v 20-21....was Calvin Gods man??? I doubt it. Do you see where I'm coming from, how can this so called great move of Christs church have so much death and murder in it from the so called Saints? I'm really wondering ....when did God leave the building! Thanks for the reply.

  

« Last Edit: Thu May 05, 2011 - 12:29:19 by marcus »

p.rehbein

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Re: When did God leave the reformation?
« Reply #3 on: Fri May 06, 2011 - 07:10:15 »
Did God order the death of the disobedient?
Did God order the death of entire Naitons?
Was the death penalty imposed on the man and wife in the New Testiment?
Are there any examples of God being so angry with people that He destroyed them?

Now, not saying some of the examples you gave are justified, just saying when we begin to condem, let's be sure who? what? when? where? why?

God bless..............

Offline marcus

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Re: When did God leave the reformation?
« Reply #4 on: Fri May 06, 2011 - 11:51:34 »
Did God order the death of the disobedient?
Did God order the death of entire Naitons?
Was the death penalty imposed on the man and wife in the New Testiment?
Are there any examples of God being so angry with people that He destroyed them?

Now, not saying some of the examples you gave are justified, just saying when we begin to condem, let's be sure who? what? when? where? why?

God bless..............


'NEVER' by the hands of the body of Christ. We are to turn the cheek, give to those who ask,
bless and not curse,pray for those who hate us,forgive our enemies,feed the poor,cloth the naked,and we are to rejoice when slandered falsely, because...'THEN' we have a great reward!
 Better still,here is Jesus,the final word himself ....

  "You have heard that it was said,you shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.
    but I say to you,love your enemy,bless those that curse you,do good to those who
    hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, THAT YOU
    MAY BE SONS OF YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN
...." Matt 5 v 43v45.

 When did the Apostles force conversion at the point of a sword on people? When they were rejected they were to walk away and shake the dust of their shoes. When did they set people on fire for disagreeing with them?They walked away from them, or tried to reason with them. Did Paul take a hammer to the statues in Athens when reading their inscriptions?He used them as a means to evangelize. What armies did they raise up to fight and kill other so called heretic's? NEVER! They obeyed the spiritual principles which Paul mentions.....

   "Beloved do not avenge yourselves,but rather give place to wrath:for it is written,
    'vengeance is mine says the Lord,I will repay'. Therefore, if your enemy is hungry,
     feed him,if he is thirsty,give him a drink,for in doing so,you will heaps coals of fire
     upon his head. DO NOT BE OVERCOME BY EVIL,BUT OVER COME EVIL WITH GOOD".

 The reformers(and R.C.C.)that killed,maimed, etc, other people for disagreeing with them,
 were not moving in God's Spirit, and I now believe were separate from the true body of Christ.
 Thanks for partaking in this discussion. ::tippinghat::

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Re: When did God leave the reformation?
« Reply #4 on: Fri May 06, 2011 - 11:51:34 »



Offline Catholica

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Re: When did God leave the reformation?
« Reply #5 on: Wed May 11, 2011 - 10:46:46 »
These were different times.  God necessarily deals with people even when they commit horrible sins.  Ultimately one can't judge the purpose or success or presence of God based upon the actions of people, because people are sinners by their fallen nature, and God is not.

The question was did God really intend for a schism to take place in order to reform his Church?  And were the reformers successful in reforming the original Church?  There were three main reformers, and they didn't agree with each other, nor did they like each other very much.  There were even bloody battles between reforming camps and executions ordered by the reformers themselves, IIRC.

Offline marcus

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Re: When did God leave the reformation?
« Reply #6 on: Thu May 12, 2011 - 16:45:51 »
These were different times.  God necessarily deals with people even when they commit horrible sins.  Ultimately one can't judge the purpose or success or presence of God based upon the actions of people, because people are sinners by their fallen nature, and God is not.

The question was did God really intend for a schism to take place in order to reform his Church?  And were the reformers successful in reforming the original Church?  There were three main reformers, and they didn't agree with each other, nor did they like each other very much.  There were even bloody battles between reforming camps and executions ordered by the reformers themselves, IIRC.

I would strongly disagree with you on your point that 'we cant judge the purpose , success or presence of God based on the actions of people'. The actions (character)of people is of the utmost importance...."by their fruit you will know them" is what Jesus said will be the sign of the ungodly.

  " Draw near to God and he will draw near to you, cleanse your hands you sinners,
    purify your hearts you double minded".  James 4 v 8


James also states the same, and I could give loads of other verses which show we have to put of sin in order to walk with God.
Was the 'true church' really broke up, or was it just a religious looking, structured organisation that was broken up? I believe the true church is simply those who walk in the Spirit of God through Jesus, who come from all shapes and sizes, colours and nationalities. But the antics of those who call themselves the Church and kill, maim and persecute others are nothing but tares, sown in this world by an enemy of God. They don't walk in the Spirit, therefore they are not the Church. Jesus said his family are those who do what he says...."My Mother and brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it".  Luke 8 v 21. Be blessed.   Marcus

Offline Nomad1689

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Re: When did God leave the reformation?
« Reply #7 on: Thu May 12, 2011 - 17:18:12 »
Marcus,

The incidents of violence that you're reading about were actually few and far between. That certainly doesn't excuse them, but generally speaking the reformed churches were charitable and dedicated to God.

I think your current focus is giving you a false impression. This is one reason that I don't often watch TV news. Obviously they're going to focus on all of the bad stuff and you get it all at once. This gives the impression that the world is all bad all the time. But when I leave my house every morning I see a world that is much different than the one I see on the news.

I would simply suggest that you study other aspects of the Reformation as well as what you're currently reading. Try a biography or two on Reformed personages and see it that doesn't help bring a little balance to your view.

Offline marcus

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Re: When did God leave the reformation?
« Reply #8 on: Thu May 12, 2011 - 18:07:14 »
Marcus,

The incidents of violence that you're reading about were actually few and far between. That certainly doesn't excuse them, but generally speaking the reformed churches were charitable and dedicated to God.

I think your current focus is giving you a false impression. This is one reason that I don't often watch TV news. Obviously they're going to focus on all of the bad stuff and you get it all at once. This gives the impression that the world is all bad all the time. But when I leave my house every morning I see a world that is much different than the one I see on the news.

I would simply suggest that you study other aspects of the Reformation as well as what you're currently reading. Try a biography or two on Reformed personages and see it that doesn't help bring a little balance to your view.

Hello, When I became a Christian many years ago(aprox 1990), I was surrounded continuously by stories of the reformers and their so called great acts, I lived 24/7 amongst Calvinists of various types. Therefore, the books I was seeing were all wrote by reformers about the reformers. Through all those years I was never told once about any of the horrible acts committed by Calvin etc, they were all stories of his so called great influence on the reformation. So believe me, I don't need to read any more of their so called great acts in Gods name, I have heard lots of them, enough for any man to bear in his life time. But, what I am starting to see is that most people who are brought up in the reformed faith are treated like mushrooms by their superiors....kept in the dark and feed with crap!(excuse the terminology, it's Irish humour!) ::blushing::.
    I truly believe that most people who affiliate themselves with ....Calvinism for example, do not know what really happened in Geneva under Calvins dictatorship. They would not fellowship with some one today who killed people for disagreeing with them over doctrine, yet they take on this mans very name like a badge of honour! I also believe that the acts of the reformers has been white washed over within the reformed circles, why did I not hear of it for many many years, yet Catholic murders were told daily??

  John Knox for example, he is seen as a real hero among Scottish Presbyterians. Yet, he proclaimed that to kill a Idolater(he who practices mass) is ok! He was a serious piece of work, he would of killed a priest, or any one, who refused his words to repent from his idea of idolatry. Then we have the English wars, all fought over religion, protestants butchering protestants over doctrine etc. The list is endless, and I know to well about Rome and it's bloodshed, it to stinks to the high heavens!
  So I will have to humbly disagree with you on your opinion that I should get a balance view on some of these men, now that I have heard about their murders in Gods name I want nothing to do with them. Be blessed.    Marcus

P.S. They were not few and far between, the wars
       themselves were fought for many years. The persecuting
       of others took place in Europe and Scotland etc for a very
       long time.
  
« Last Edit: Thu May 12, 2011 - 18:15:59 by marcus »

Offline highrigger

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Re: When did God leave the reformation?
« Reply #9 on: Sat Jun 18, 2011 - 13:27:22 »
Quote
I have been reading up about the Protestant reformation, and one thing that shocks me is the blood shed and persecutions.....by the reforming groups! They turned out to be no different than the system which they were breaking free from. People burned slowly with green wood(maybe some sulphur thrown in for good measure!) A Head cut of a child for striking it's parents, drowning other believers for holding to a different form of baptism, forced conversions, etc etc etc...the list goes on and on and on. These acts were carried out, or sanctioned, by well known reformers.
 Therefore, when did God leave the building???

Mark,

You are correct that some movements in the Protestant Reformation led to persecution of other denominations. It was very much a shameful part of the Reformation. We should remember however that all protestants KNOW that was very wrong and sinful and do not support any leader who participated in such terrible sins.

And not to make excuses, the Protestant persecutions were not near of the harshness and length of the RC persecution of heretics. This is supported in the history books, for example Paul Anderson (Catholic) history of Christianity as follows:

Protestant states tended o be the chief beneficiaries of this
international serious of religous movements (reformation). They
might have state religions but they tended to be more tolerant.
They rarely persecuted systematically. They had no equivalent
to the Inquisition. They were not clericalist. They permitted books
to circulate more freely. They did not burden commerce with canon law. They accepted 'private religion', and placed marriage and
the family at the center of it. They were thus more congenial
to the capitalist community. As a result, Protestant societies
appeared far more successful than Catholic ones as the capitalist
system developed...... It was one chief reasonwhy the Vatican
tended to damn all forms of 'modernism' and to detect Protestant
heresy behind any kind of innovation."

Remember that Luthers ideas of freedom of expression led eventually to our US constitution which all religions have benefitted from and it is interesting that the Papal Inquistition continued until 1823 long after freedom of Relgion was common in our nation, thanks to those Reformation ideas.

Offline SwordMaster

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Re: When did God leave the reformation?
« Reply #10 on: Thu May 02, 2013 - 01:41:14 »
I have been reading up about the Protestant reformation, and one thing that shocks me is the blood shed and persecutions.....by the reforming groups! They turned out to be no different than the system which they were breaking free from. People burned slowly with green wood(maybe some sulphur thrown in for good measure!) A Head cut of a child for striking it's parents, drowning other believers for holding to a different form of baptism, forced conversions, etc etc etc...the list goes on and on and on. These acts were carried out, or sanctioned, by well known reformers.
 Therefore, when did God leave the building???


I believe that God brought the Reformation to a beginning, but things did not go exactly the way that He would have wanted them to...or did they? Part of the problem is that Luther and Calvin still retained some of the teachings that they were birthed and raised into...for example, they both believed in the continued virginity of Mary, even though she had at least seven other children after Jesus (they basically call history a liar in order to retain their personal bias).

The Reformation was a stepping stone to regain the purity, power, and authority that God gave the church in Acts, but because precious few Westerners understand covenant, we are still a ways off from reaching that goal.

 ::preachit::