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Christian Interests => Organized Religion and Religious Movements Discussions => Protestantism => Topic started by: Elvisman on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 12:47:22

Title: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 12:47:22
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Paulus on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 13:35:25
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

Many don't .

There is an Anglican church at top of my street where the parishioners confess their sins to the priest .

It is normal practice in many Anglican parishes , though they are in the minority nationwide .
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 15:34:56
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

Many don't .

There is an Anglican church at top of my street where the parishioners confess their sins to the priest .

It is normal practice in many Anglican parishes , though they are in the minority nationwide .
Yes, I should have said "MOST" Protestants.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Josiah on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 18:16:26
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Did you MEAN to quote, "If a priest properly ordained in the RC denomination forgives you, you are forgiven - if not, you are eternally damned?"  If so, that's what what you posted, you may want to go back and edit your post.




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Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 19:43:03
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Did you MEAN to quote, "If a priest properly ordained in the RC denomination forgives you, you are forgiven - if not, you are eternally damned?"  If so, that's what what you posted, you may want to go back and edit your post.
All you have do do is read what I typed.  Not really sure why you find it so difficult to follow . . .

PS - The Catholic Church is the stump from which all Protestant sects splintered from.  It is not a mere denomination as they are.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: kensington on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 19:59:46
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Did you MEAN to quote, "If a priest properly ordained in the RC denomination forgives you, you are forgiven - if not, you are eternally damned?"  If so, that's what what you posted, you may want to go back and edit your post.
All you have do do is read what I typed.  Not really sure why you find it so difficult to follow . . .

PS - The Catholic Church is the stump from which all Protestant sects splintered from.  It is not a mere denomination as they are.

This is insulting and you may want to read the rules on posting such things.  You might need to confess that sin.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: kensington on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 20:25:21
Also, by the very verse you quoted for this topic, what is the priest for?  It said forgive the sins of one another, it didn't say go to a priest and be granted forgiveness from him. 

The verse was an admonishment to the body of Christ on forgiving one another, not an instruction to continue an Old Testament practice that was no longer needed once Jesus the High Priest came.

But, I do have a question. Your posts seem to be posed in the form of a questions as a gateway for you to judge and insult the protestants.  How is that productive to the edification and building of the church?

Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Josiah on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 20:26:05
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."


So, the only ones who may forgive sins were the Apostles.  Okay...
Then your priest can't (check the list of the Apostles - his name ain't there).
And I hope when you pray The Lord's Prayer, you delete the petition about ".... as we forgive those that sin against us."





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Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Ladonia on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 01:10:36
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

Many don't .

There is an Anglican church at top of my street where the parishioners confess their sins to the priest .

It is normal practice in many Anglican parishes , though they are in the minority nationwide .

Well, that is interesting, I did not know that. I had always heard that us and the Anglicans were the same in many respects, but the confession to a priest aspect I did not know.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Ladonia on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 01:15:03
Also, by the very verse you quoted for this topic, what is the priest for?  It said forgive the sins of one another, it didn't say go to a priest and be granted forgiveness from him.  

The verse was an admonishment to the body of Christ on forgiving one another, not an instruction to continue an Old Testament practice that was no longer needed once Jesus the High Priest came.

But, I do have a question. Your posts seem to be posed in the form of a questions as a gateway for you to judge and insult the protestants.  How is that productive to the edification and building of the church?



Elvisman,  is this true?
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Paulus on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 05:10:33
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

Many don't .

There is an Anglican church at top of my street where the parishioners confess their sins to the priest .

It is normal practice in many Anglican parishes , though they are in the minority nationwide .

Well, that is interesting, I did not know that. I had always heard that us and the Anglicans were the same in many respects, but the confession to a priest aspect I did not know.

Yes , Ladonia , it's common among those Anglicans who term themselves Anglo-Catholic , many of whom use the Roman Missal , and even include "Benedict our Pope" in the Eucharistic Prayer .
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Paulus on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 05:17:24
But, I do have a question. Your posts seem to be posed in the form of a questions as a gateway for you to judge and insult the protestants.  How is that productive to the edification and building of the church?

That's rich !

You want to read some of the threads on this forum .

The vitriolic attacks on matters Catholic are very unedifying and destructive of any attempts at producing dialogue .
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 10:09:28
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."


So, the only ones who may forgive sins were the Apostles.  Okay...
Then your priest can't (check the list of the Apostles - his name ain't there).
And I hope when you pray The Lord's Prayer, you delete the petition about ".... as we forgive those that sin against us."
We can ALL forgive each other when we sin against each other.
However, Jeus didn't give everybody the power to bind and loose - ONLY the Apostles, the first Bishops.

A simple rule of thumb about hermeneutics (biblical interpretation):
When Jesus spoke to the crowds, he spoke to ALL of us.
When Jesus instructed the Twelve, it was to the leaders of the Church.

My priest wasn't on of the Apostles but he is part of the Apostolic succession spoken of in Acts 1:12-26.

READ YOUR BIBLE.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 10:35:37
Also, by the very verse you quoted for this topic, what is the priest for?  It said forgive the sins of one another, it didn't say go to a priest and be granted forgiveness from him.  

The verse was an admonishment to the body of Christ on forgiving one another, not an instruction to continue an Old Testament practice that was no longer needed once Jesus the High Priest came.

But, I do have a question. Your posts seem to be posed in the form of a questions as a gateway for you to judge and insult the protestants.  How is that productive to the edification and building of the church?



Elvisman,  is this true?
NO.  Kensington is wrong.  Here's why:
The generally accepted rule of hermeneutics (biblical interpretation) is that when Jesus spoke to the crowds, he spoke to ALL of us.  When Jesus instructed the Twelve, it was to the leaders of the Church.

The practice of telling our sins directly to a priest is based directly in Scripture. THREE times in the Gospels (Matt. 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23), we read where Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins or to hold them bound.  This is not a something that Jesus took lightly.  In John 20:21-23, Jesus (who is God) breathes on the Apostles as he is giving them this power:
"(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you.  As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU retain are retained."


The fact that Jesus breathed on the Apostles when entrusted them with this ministry is highly significant because he doesn’t do this anywhere else in the New Testament.  In fact, there are only two times in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man:
The first is when he breathed life into Adam.  The second is here in John’s Gospel when he is giving them the power to forgive or retain sins.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Ladonia on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 11:42:27
Also, by the very verse you quoted for this topic, what is the priest for?  It said forgive the sins of one another, it didn't say go to a priest and be granted forgiveness from him.  

The verse was an admonishment to the body of Christ on forgiving one another, not an instruction to continue an Old Testament practice that was no longer needed once Jesus the High Priest came.

But, I do have a question. Your posts seem to be posed in the form of a questions as a gateway for you to judge and insult the protestants.  How is that productive to the edification and building of the church?



Elvisman,  is this true?
NO.  Kensington is wrong.  Here's why:
The generally accepted rule of hermeneutics (biblical interpretation) is that when Jesus spoke to the crowds, he spoke to ALL of us.  When Jesus instructed the Twelve, it was to the leaders of the Church.

The practice of telling our sins directly to a priest is based directly in Scripture. THREE times in the Gospels (Matt. 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23), we read where Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins or to hold them bound.  This is not a something that Jesus took lightly.  In John 20:21-23, Jesus (who is God) breathes on the Apostles as he is giving them this power:
"(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you.  As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU retain are retained."


The fact that Jesus breathed on the Apostles when entrusted them with this ministry is highly significant because he doesn’t do this anywhere else in the New Testament.  In fact, there are only two times in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man:
The first is when he breathed life into Adam.  The second is here in John’s Gospel when he is giving them the power to forgive or retain sins.

 I am Catholic through and through. Already believe  what you said. But you misread by question. I meant you to answer  question this posed by our brother: "Your posts seem to be posed  in the form of a questions as a gateway for you to judge and insult the Protestants"?
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: halfamileadecadecl on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 11:57:26
  I don't lately I think i would go to a Rabbi just for someone to talk to.  I feel though any church will you can discuss your problems with the leadership is a good one.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Paulus on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 12:04:54
A simple rule of thumb about hermeneutics (biblical interpretation):
When Jesus spoke to the crowds, he spoke to ALL of us.
When Jesus instructed the Twelve, it was to the leaders of the Church.

 ::amen!::

A simple rule of thumb , but an ESSENTIAL one if we are not to take Jesus' words out of context and end up with falsehoods .




Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Josiah on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 12:22:04
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."


So, the only ones who may forgive sins were the Apostles.  Okay...
Then your priest can't (check the list of the Apostles - his name ain't there).
And I hope when you pray The Lord's Prayer, you delete the petition about ".... as we forgive those that sin against us."
We can ALL forgive each other when we sin against each other.
However, Jeus didn't give everybody the power to bind and loose - ONLY the Apostles, the first Bishops.

A simple rule of thumb about hermeneutics (biblical interpretation):
When Jesus spoke to the crowds, he spoke to ALL of us.
When Jesus instructed the Twelve, it was to the leaders of the Church.




I see.  And of course, He never once spoke to the RC Denomination.  Or to your priest. 

Do you delete that part of the Lord's Prayer where Jesus taught to pray, ".... as WE forgive those that sin against us?"  IF you don't, are you an Apostle?  An RC priest?




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Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 14:14:48
I am Catholic through and through. Already believe  what you said. But you misread by question. I meant you to answer  question this posed by our brother: "Your posts seem to be posed  in the form of a questions as a gateway for you to judge and insult the Protestants"?
Not at all.
I have read a LOT of misconceptions about Catholic beliefs on this forum that are based on either ignorance or plain old anti-Catholicism.  I want to know WHY people believe what they believe about the Church to educate them about Church doctrine.

Correcting false notions about what the Church teaches is a spiritual work of mercy.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 14:17:00
A simple rule of thumb about hermeneutics (biblical interpretation):
When Jesus spoke to the crowds, he spoke to ALL of us.
When Jesus instructed the Twelve, it was to the leaders of the Church.

 ::amen!::

A simple rule of thumb , but an ESSENTIAL one if we are not to take Jesus' words out of context and end up with falsehoods .
::amen!::
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 14:22:49
I see.  And of course, He never once spoke to the RC Denomination.  Or to your priest. 

Do you delete that part of the Lord's Prayer where Jesus taught to pray, ".... as WE forgive those that sin against us?"  IF you don't, are you an Apostle?  An RC priest?
And you apparently ignored my earlier post where I answered this questioned
We can ALL forgive each other when we sin against each other.
However, Jeus didn't give everybody the power to bind and loose - ONLY the Apostles, the first Bishops.

A simple rule of thumb about hermeneutics (biblical interpretation):
When Jesus spoke to the crowds, he spoke to ALL of us.
When Jesus instructed the Twelve, it was to the leaders of the Church.

My priest wasn't on of the Apostles but he is part of the Apostolic succession spoken of in Acts 1:12-26.

READ YOUR BIBLE.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Josiah on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 14:31:00
I see.  And of course, He never once spoke to the RC Denomination.  Or to your priest. 

Do you delete that part of the Lord's Prayer where Jesus taught to pray, ".... as WE forgive those that sin against us?"  IF you don't, are you an Apostle?  An RC priest?

We can ALL forgive each other when we sin against each other.
-


Then we should confess our sins to those who may forgive....  And as you state, that's not just priests.



Quote
However, Jeus didn't give everybody the power to bind and loose ONLY the Apostles, the first Bishops.


Got it; so only the 12 to whom Jesus spoke may "bind and loose"  Okay, then unless your priest is listed among the 12, then he has no such ability (however such is different than forgiving).




Quote
READ YOUR BIBLE.

That's my advise to you.  IF you do, you won't see the RC denomination so much as even mentioned - for anything, about anything, concerning anything - at any time or in any context.  Nor will you see ANYTHING about the necessity of confession our sins to a man ordained as a priest in one specific denomination (yours, I suspect) - or any other.  Read the Book. 




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Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 01:27:59
Then we should confess our sins to those who may forgive....  And as you state, that's not just priests.
Got it; so only the 12 to whom Jesus spoke may "bind and loose"  Okay, then unless your priest is listed among the 12, then he has no such ability (however such is different than forgiving).

That's my advise to you.  IF you do, you won't see the RC denomination so much as even mentioned - for anything, about anything, concerning anything - at any time or in any context.  Nor will you see ANYTHING about the necessity of confession our sins to a man ordained as a priest in one specific denomination (yours, I suspect) - or any other.  Read the Book.  
EVERYBODY should forgive.  NOT everybody has the power to bind and loose sine - ONLY those who have valid Apostolic succession like my priest.
This is the THIRD time I have had to explain this to you
However, Jeus didn't give everybody the power to bind and loose ONLY the Apostles, the first Bishops, and they passed it down.  READ Acts 1 where they replaced Judas by laying hands on Matthias, which fulfilled the prophecy, "Let another take his office."

It's late and I'm going to bed.  In the morning, I will provide you with further Scriptural and historic proof of confessing your sins to the Church.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Ladonia on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 01:56:24
I see.  And of course, He never once spoke to the RC Denomination.  Or to your priest. 

Do you delete that part of the Lord's Prayer where Jesus taught to pray, ".... as WE forgive those that sin against us?"  IF you don't, are you an Apostle?  An RC priest?

We can ALL forgive each other when we sin against each other.
-


Then we should confess our sins to those who may forgive....  And as you state, that's not just priests.



Quote
However, Jeus didn't give everybody the power to bind and loose ONLY the Apostles, the first Bishops.


Got it; so only the 12 to whom Jesus spoke may "bind and loose"  Okay, then unless your priest is listed among the 12, then he has no such ability (however such is different than forgiving).




Quote
READ YOUR BIBLE.

That's my advise to you.  IF you do, you won't see the RC denomination so much as even mentioned - for anything, about anything, concerning anything - at any time or in any context.  Nor will you see ANYTHING about the necessity of confession our sins to a man ordained as a priest in one specific denomination (yours, I suspect) - or any other.  Read the Book. 




.

What you miss about the "power" issue is, once it was given to the Apostles, they then had the power to give that power to others. And they did! The "binding and loosing" and "forgiving"  abilities made it's way through the succession process to this very day. If all this wasn't intended by Christ to continue, everything would have ended with the death's of the Apostles. No preaching the gospel, no worship services, healings, casting out of the devil, no Communion,  nothing, nada -  it all would have stopped cold. Then where would we be?
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Josiah on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 09:02:06



Then we should confess our sins to those who may forgive....  And as you state, that's not just priests.
Got it; so only the 12 to whom Jesus spoke may "bind and loose"  Okay, then unless your priest is listed among the 12, then he has no such ability (however such is different than forgiving).



That's my advise to you.  IF you do, you won't see the RC denomination so much as even mentioned - for anything, about anything, concerning anything - at any time or in any context.  Nor will you see ANYTHING about the necessity of confession our sins to a man ordained as a priest in one specific denomination (yours, I suspect) - or any other.  Read the Book.  



EVERYBODY should forgive.  NOT everybody has the power to bind and loose sine - ONLY those who have valid Apostolic succession like my priest.


1.  Then, if you want forgiveness - why go to a priest?

2.  The Bible never mentions apostolic succession or your priest.   What you stressed is that Jesus promised this ONLY to the 12 Apostles, not to any others.  Then, according to you, ONLY the 12 Apostles can bind and loose.  They're dead.  I think you know that.  Your priest is not one of them.   



Quote
It's late and I'm going to bed.  In the morning, I will provide you with further Scriptural and historic proof of confessing your sins to the Church.

No one here has disagreed with the value of confessing our sins to Christians.   
What some are disagreeing with is that only a priest in the RC Denomination may forgive us or others (and whatever distinction you are making between "forgive" and 'bind' is entirely unsubstantiated - and irrelevant since you are likely aware all the Apostles are dead).





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Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Ladonia on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 10:19:49



Then we should confess our sins to those who may forgive....  And as you state, that's not just priests.
Got it; so only the 12 to whom Jesus spoke may "bind and loose"  Okay, then unless your priest is listed among the 12, then he has no such ability (however such is different than forgiving).



That's my advise to you.  IF you do, you won't see the RC denomination so much as even mentioned - for anything, about anything, concerning anything - at any time or in any context.  Nor will you see ANYTHING about the necessity of confession our sins to a man ordained as a priest in one specific denomination (yours, I suspect) - or any other.  Read the Book.  



EVERYBODY should forgive.  NOT everybody has the power to bind and loose sine - ONLY those who have valid Apostolic succession like my priest.


1.  Then, if you want forgiveness - why go to a priest?

2.  The Bible never mentions apostolic succession or your priest.   What you stressed is that Jesus promised this ONLY to the 12 Apostles, not to any others.  Then, according to you, ONLY the 12 Apostles can bind and loose.  They're dead.  I think you know that.  Your priest is not one of them.   



Quote
It's late and I'm going to bed.  In the morning, I will provide you with further Scriptural and historic proof of confessing your sins to the Church.

No one here has disagreed with the value of confessing our sins to Christians.   
What some are disagreeing with is that only a priest in the RC Denomination may forgive us or others (and whatever distinction you are making between "forgive" and 'bind' is entirely unsubstantiated - and irrelevant since you are likely aware all the Apostles are dead).





.

Did you miss my previous post?
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 12:57:19
1.  Then, if you want forgiveness - why go to a priest?
Because this is precisely what Jesus prescribed in Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18 and John 20:21-23.You can deny it all day long but you'd STILL be wrong . . .
2.  The Bible never mentions apostolic succession or your priest.   What you stressed is that Jesus promised this ONLY to the 12 Apostles, not to any others.  Then, according to you, ONLY the 12 Apostles can bind and loose.  They're dead.  I think you know that.  Your priest is not one of them.
Josiah - HOW many times do I need to show you Acts 1:15-26??  I don't know if this is an inability to read or if it's simply SPIRITUAL PRIDE on your part.  This is the FOURTH time I have had to explain this to you.

Apostolic succession is described here in Acts 1 when the Apostles chose a successor for Judas, fulfilling the prophecy in Psalms, "May another take his office."  This prophecy was about APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION.
No one here has disagreed with the value of confessing our sins to Christians.   
What some are disagreeing with is that only a priest in the RC Denomination may forgive us or others (and whatever distinction you are making between "forgive" and 'bind' is entirely unsubstantiated - and irrelevant since you are likely aware all the Apostles are dead).
And I have REPEATEDLY tried to educate you about what a "denomination" is.  The Catholic Again, the FOURTH time:  The Catholic Church is the stump from which ALL Protestant sects splintered from.  I am beginning to wonder seriously if you can even read, friend.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 13:08:29
No one here has disagreed with the value of confessing our sins to Christians.  
What some are disagreeing with is that only a priest in the RC Denomination may forgive us or others (and whatever distinction you are making between "forgive" and 'bind' is entirely unsubstantiated - and irrelevant since you are likely aware all the Apostles are dead).
I have addressed Apostolic Succession repeatedly, to no avail with you.  I will now give you more AMPLE proof of having to go to a priest to confess your sins - FROM THE BIBLE AND the writings of the Early Church:

Three times in the Gospels (Matt. 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23), we read where Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins or to hold them bound.  This is not a something that Jesus took lightly.  In John 20:21-23, Jesus (who is God) breathes on the Apostles as he is giving them this power:
(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you.  As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."


The fact that Jesus breathed on the Apostles when entrusted them with this ministry is highly significant because he doesn’t do this anywhere else in the New Testament.  In fact, there are only two times in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man:
The first is when he breathed life into Adam.  The second is here in John’s Gospel when he is giving them the power to forgive or retain sins.  

Many Protestants will have you believe that Jesus was merely telling them that they now had the power to recognize sins – but that is NOT what he said (Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained).  The Greek word used here for the word “forgive
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Josiah on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 15:59:41
1.  Then, if you want forgiveness - why go to a priest?
Because this is precisely what Jesus prescribed in Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18 and John 20:21-23.You can deny it all day long but you'd STILL be wrong . . .

That's right, Jesus never once said we are to only confess our sins to a priest.

Do you delete the petition Jesus taught us to pray, ".... as WE forgive those that sin....?"  If not, are you a priest?   Why would Jesus tell us all to forgive others if we are only to confess to a priest?  Or are we ALL priests?



Quote
2.  The Bible never mentions apostolic succession or your priest.   What you stressed is that Jesus promised this ONLY to the 12 Apostles, not to any others.  Then, according to you, ONLY the 12 Apostles can bind and loose.  They're dead.  I think you know that.  Your priest is not one of them.
Josiah - HOW many times do I need to show you Acts 1:15-26?? 

ONCE, an Apostle was replaced (that we know of).... Not Paul, not Peter, not James- all of whom died within the NT record.  But, when Judas was replaced, does it say ANYTHING about special powers or rights or previleges or authorizations that belongs ONLY to the 12 now being his?   Nope. 

When did the Apostles replace any of the number with your priest?   

Where did Jesus say that the ONLY ones that can forgive (or "bind/loose" HOWEVER that's different - you won't say) are "successors" of the Apostles?  In fact, where did Jesus even once say the word, in any context, about anything? 




Quote
Apostolic succession is described here in Acts 1 when the Apostles chose a successor for Judas, fulfilling the prophecy in Psalms, "May another take his office." 

Nope.  It's about the replacement of ONE PERSON - just one (did you notice, Paul wasn't replaced, PETER wasn't replaced, James wasn't replaced), the Pslam is about ONE person - not millions of them.  The Psalm says NOTHING about unmitigated power or authority or docilic submission as unto God, it say ONE will be replaced.  IF Judas had special 'powers' then there's NOTHING that says Matthias grained these.

You are good about referencing Scripture, but perhaps the reason why you don't quote them is that they don't say what you seem to suggest they say.   I think perhaps you notice what's there, you seem seem to not notice what's NOT there - your whole point, the very thing you are referencing the Scripture about.  It's not there.  Your claims are baseless - as I think is obvious if we actually READ the references you give rather than you imputation of all kinds of entirely foreign thought NOWHERE stated in  the verse.





Quote from: Josiah

No one here has disagreed with the value of confessing our sins to Christians.   
What some are disagreeing with is that only a priest in the RC Denomination may forgive us or others (and whatever distinction you are making between "forgive" and 'bind' is entirely unsubstantiated - and irrelevant since you are likely aware all the Apostles are dead).






.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Ladonia on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 16:19:53
1.  Then, if you want forgiveness - why go to a priest?
Because this is precisely what Jesus prescribed in Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18 and John 20:21-23.You can deny it all day long but you'd STILL be wrong . . .

That's right, Jesus never once said we are to only confess our sins to a priest.

Do you delete the petition Jesus taught us to pray, ".... as WE forgive those that sin....?"  If not, are you a priest?   Why would Jesus tell us all to forgive others if we are only to confess to a priest?  Or are we ALL priests?



Quote
2.  The Bible never mentions apostolic succession or your priest.   What you stressed is that Jesus promised this ONLY to the 12 Apostles, not to any others.  Then, according to you, ONLY the 12 Apostles can bind and loose.  They're dead.  I think you know that.  Your priest is not one of them.
Josiah - HOW many times do I need to show you Acts 1:15-26?? 

ONCE, an Apostle was replaced (that we know of).... Not Paul, not Peter, not James- all of whom died within the NT record.  But, when Judas was replaced, does it say ANYTHING about special powers or rights or previleges or authorizations that belongs ONLY to the 12 now being his?   Nope. 

When did the Apostles replace any of the number with your priest?   

Where did Jesus say that the ONLY ones that can forgive (or "bind/loose" HOWEVER that's different - you won't say) are "successors" of the Apostles?  In fact, where did Jesus even once say the word, in any context, about anything? 




Quote
Apostolic succession is described here in Acts 1 when the Apostles chose a successor for Judas, fulfilling the prophecy in Psalms, "May another take his office." 

Nope.  It's about the replacement of ONE PERSON - just one (did you notice, Paul wasn't replaced, PETER wasn't replaced, James wasn't replaced), the Pslam is about ONE person - not millions of them.  The Psalm says NOTHING about unmitigated power or authority or docilic submission as unto God, it say ONE will be replaced.  IF Judas had special 'powers' then there's NOTHING that says Matthias grained these.

You are good about referencing Scripture, but perhaps the reason why you don't quote them is that they don't say what you seem to suggest they say.   I think perhaps you notice what's there, you seem seem to not notice what's NOT there - your whole point, the very thing you are referencing the Scripture about.  It's not there.  Your claims are baseless - as I think is obvious if we actually READ the references you give rather than you imputation of all kinds of entirely foreign thought NOWHERE stated in  the verse.





Quote from: Josiah

No one here has disagreed with the value of confessing our sins to Christians.   
What some are disagreeing with is that only a priest in the RC Denomination may forgive us or others (and whatever distinction you are making between "forgive" and 'bind' is entirely unsubstantiated - and irrelevant since you are likely aware all the Apostles are dead).






.


Common sense tells us that Christ wanted Christianity to flouish, to go on into the future. He was going to die and He needed help for the faith to continue. His apostles were going to die, so for the faith to go on, to be continued to be preached throughout the world, successors to them would be needed.

So, in the Church's that were established in different places at the time (Corinth) for example, weren't Deacons and Presbyters selected, weren't they "prayed" over, or "ordained" so to speak, so that they could then minister to the faithful? Isn't this all in the Scriptures?

And when this happened, don't you think that Paul might have turned around and given them the power that was given to him by Jesus Christ himself? We know he (Paul) had this "power" because the Scriptures tell us, and he could do what he wanted with it. He did. Sure, there were only 12 Apostles, but the teaching of the faith did not stop with them.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Josiah on Mon Oct 03, 2011 - 09:35:11


No one here has disagreed with the value of confessing our sins to Christians.  
What some are disagreeing with is that only a priest in the RC Denomination may forgive us or others (and whatever distinction you are making between "forgive" and 'bind' is entirely unsubstantiated - and irrelevant since you are likely aware all the Apostles are dead).

Three times in the Gospels (Matt. 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23), we read where Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins or to hold them bound.


It seems everything in Catholicism boils down to P.O.W.E.R.  - the unmitigated, unaccountable POWER that the RCC itself alone claims for the RCC itself alone.  Read Matthew 20:20-28? 


You need to decided:  Can only the 12 Apostles forgive OR can Christians (including you) forgive?   IF you are right and Jesus gave this ability ONLY to the 12 - as  you keep stressing - then NO ONE today may forgive (and again, why do you pray as Jesus told you to pray, ".... as WE forgive those.....?" 


  


Quote
This is not a something that Jesus took lightly.  In John 20:21-23, Jesus (who is God) breathes on the Apostles as he is giving them this POWER: (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you.  As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."


Okay.  IF Jesus gave this ability to forgive ONLY to the 12 - then He gave it ONLY to the 12.  They're all dead.   Your priest isn't one of them.  You aren't one of them.  Why does your priest forgive?  Why do you pray, "..... as WE forgive those.....?"   Why are we told - over and over  - to be forgiving if we aren't allowed to (or to use your prespective, lacking the POWER)? 





 
Quote
The Greek word used here for the word “forgive
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Mon Oct 03, 2011 - 09:41:23
No one here has disagreed with the value of confessing our sins to Christians.  
What some are disagreeing with is that only a priest in the RC Denomination may forgive us or others (and whatever distinction you are making between "forgive" and 'bind' is entirely unsubstantiated - and irrelevant since you are likely aware all the Apostles are dead).

It seems everything in Catholicism boils down to P.O.W.E.R.  - the unmitigated, unaccountable POWER that the RCC itself alone claims for the RCC itself alone.  Read Matthew 20:20-28? 

You need to decided:  Can only the 12 Apostles forgive OR can Christians (including you) forgive?   IF you are right and Jesus gave this ability ONLY to the 12 - as  you keep stressing - then NO ONE today may forgive (and again, why do you pray as Jesus told you to pray, ".... as WE forgive those.....?" 

Okay.  IF Jesus gave this ability to forgive ONLY to the 12 - then He gave it ONLY to the 12.  They're all dead.   Your priest isn't one of them.  You aren't one of them.  Why does your priest forgive?  Why do you pray, "..... as WE forgive those.....?"   Why are we told - over and over  - to be forgiving if we aren't allowed to (or to use your prespective, lacking the POWER)? 

... exact same word as in the Lord's Prayer.  So, since you are not one of the 12, why do you pray as Jesus instructed you, ".... as WE forgive....." since you insist we don't have the P.O.W.E.R. ?

"  Does it refer the the 12 Apostles?   The RC Denomination?   Christians?

Do you pray as Jesus instructed you to, namely, ".... as WE forgive.....?" 
Is Paul teaching that you and I should not forgive, should not be reconciling, rather only the 12 Apostles are to pursue that (they're all dead,  you know)? 

You just don't get it - or refuse to.

In Matt 16:18-19, 18:17-18 and John 20:21-23, Jesus gave the Apostles (Church leaders) the power to FORGIVE sins.  That's why he said, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 21:30:52
Well, the bible word translated "confess" actually means "to say the same."  So I think it's talking about agreement, not blurting out my faults to strangers (or brothers).

On the other hand, telling ones sins to someone else provides a kind of catharsis, so I don't object to the practice at all.

Jarrod
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: HRoberson on Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 22:08:38
In re: OP...

I wasn't aware I objected to confessing sins to a priest - or anyone else for that matter.

Now, I'm not sure I agree that the priest - simply because he is a cleric - can do anything about those sins, at least anything more than any other Christian might be able to do through intercession.

Confession is a good thing, but it doesn't need a priest for it to be [sacramentally, so to speak] effective.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 22:35:13
In re: OP...

I wasn't aware I objected to confessing sins to a priest - or anyone else for that matter.

Now, I'm not sure I agree that the priest - simply because he is a cleric - can do anything about those sins, at least anything more than any other Christian might be able to do through intercession.

Confession is a good thing, but it doesn't need a priest for it to be [sacramentally, so to speak] effective.
Thank you.  That was an honest answer.  If you don't object, then the question wasn't aimed at you.  I have had many conversations with people who believe that confessing to am priest is not only unnecessary - but wrong.

I would challenge your position, however, because the ministry of priestly Reconciliation is both Biblical (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:1815, John 20:21-23, 2 Cor. 2:10, 2 Cor. 5:18-20) was practiced by the Early Church from the very beginning.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: HRoberson on Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 22:42:21
In re: OP...

I wasn't aware I objected to confessing sins to a priest - or anyone else for that matter.

Now, I'm not sure I agree that the priest - simply because he is a cleric - can do anything about those sins, at least anything more than any other Christian might be able to do through intercession.

Confession is a good thing, but it doesn't need a priest for it to be [sacramentally, so to speak] effective.
Thank you.  That was an honest answer.  If you don't object, then the question wasn't aimed at you.  I have had many conversations with people who believe that confessing to am priest is not only unnecessary - but wrong.

I would challenge your position, however, because the ministry of priestly Reconciliation is both Biblical (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:1815, John 20:21-23, 2 Cor. 2:10, 2 Cor. 5:18-20) was practiced by the Early Church from the very beginning.
I think you'd be hard pressed to demonstrate priests in the first church houses. I agree that an ecclesial hierarchy began very early, but a priest as such didn't exist.

We're going to have to disagree on the Peter-the-first-Pope thing, but that isn't all that important here. We have passages that tell us to "confess our sins one to another." There is no hint in those contexts that this confession is limited to having a special cleric present.

As a low-church (extremely low-church) guy, I am not going to agree with you that clerics have any special sacramental authority. However, I have no problem agreeing that confessing to other believers is a God-ordained thing to do.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Sinead on Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 23:47:17
There is no such thing as a protestant. It is not found anywhere in Scripture. God does not recognize man-made denominations. You are either a born-again follower of Christ or you are not.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 23:53:40
No such thing as a protestant. You are either a Christ-follower or not.
Not true at all.  Many Protestans proudly wear that moniker and others are offended by it.  Those who protested against and left the Catholic Church in the 16th century were called Protestants for that very reason.

Try as you might, you simply cannot change history.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Sinead on Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 23:56:31
lol I am not trying to change history. As you said, the word protestant was a name given by man, not by God. It is a man-made word and you will not find it in Scripture.

Jesus didn't say "follow me, and become a protestant"

I have never belonged to the catholic church, so how can I be a protestant?

The answer is I am simply a follower of Jesus Christ, as were his disciples and those who came to Him while he was on the earth.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 00:04:38
We're going to have to disagree on the Peter-the-first-Pope thing, but that isn't all that important here. We have passages that tell us to "confess our sins one to another." There is no hint in those contexts that this confession is limited to having a special cleric present.

As a low-church (extremely low-church) guy, I am not going to agree with you that clerics have any special sacramental authority. However, I have no problem agreeing that confessing to other believers is a God-ordained thing to do.

Then I suggest you read not only the writings of the Early Church but the Epistle of Jude as well, which deals with the ministerial priesthood and those who tried to usurp it's authority.  In the letter, he even refers to the Rebellion of Korah in the OT and the consequences for what they did.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Catholica on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 06:12:46
lol I am not trying to change history. As you said, the word protestant was a name given by man, not by God. It is a man-made word and you will not find it in Scripture.

Jesus didn't say "follow me, and become a protestant"

I have never belonged to the catholic church, so how can I be a protestant?

The answer is I am simply a follower of Jesus Christ, as were his disciples and those who came to Him while he was on the earth.

If you are hooked in to the theology of any of the Protestant revolters, then although you may not be protesting anything, you have ended up in what could be considered a Protestant boat.

It is truly awesome that you want to follow Jesus.  How do you know that what your church is teaching is what Jesus, the apostles and the Church that Jesus founded always taught?
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 09:19:15
lol I am not trying to change history. As you said, the word protestant was a name given by man, not by God. It is a man-made word and you will not find it in Scripture.

Jesus didn't say "follow me, and become a protestant"

I have never belonged to the catholic church, so how can I be a protestant?

The answer is I am simply a follower of Jesus Christ, as were his disciples and those who came to Him while he was on the earth.

Hmmm, that's interesting.  Apparently, you don't know your history.  Let me help - and you can look this up for yourself if you don't believe me.

St. Ignatius was Bishop of Antioch in the 1st century - yes, the SAME 1st century in which Jesus and the Apostles walked the earth.  The SAME Antioch where Cbelievers were first called "Christians".    Tradition states that Ignatius was the child that Jesus held in his arms in Matt. 18:2-5 when he said, "Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." He is also said to have been a student of the Apostle John.

Now, Ignatius was martyred in Rome at the beginning of the 2nd century.  On the way to his death, he wrote seven letters to seven Church communities.  In his Letter to the Smyrnaeans, he wrote the following about the Church:

"Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Ummmm . . . I don't know about you - but it sound to me like he is describing a Catholic Mass, Church hierarchy and the Catholic Church . . .

PS - Do you consider yourself Christian?
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Josiah on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 09:37:51



No one here has disagreed with the value of confessing our sins to Christians.  
What some are disagreeing with is that only a priest in the RC Denomination may forgive us or others (and whatever distinction you are making between "forgive" and 'bind' is entirely unsubstantiated - and irrelevant since you are likely aware all the Apostles are dead).

It seems everything in Catholicism boils down to P.O.W.E.R.  - the unmitigated, unaccountable POWER that the RCC itself alone claims for the RCC itself alone.  Read Matthew 20:20-28? 

You need to decided:  Can only the 12 Apostles forgive OR can Christians (including you) forgive?   IF you are right and Jesus gave this ability ONLY to the 12 - as  you keep stressing - then NO ONE today may forgive (and again, why do you pray as Jesus told you to pray, ".... as WE forgive those.....?" 

Okay.  IF Jesus gave this ability to forgive ONLY to the 12 - then He gave it ONLY to the 12.  They're all dead.   Your priest isn't one of them.  You aren't one of them.  Why does your priest forgive?  Why do you pray, "..... as WE forgive those.....?"   Why are we told - over and over  - to be forgiving if we aren't allowed to (or to use your prespective, lacking the POWER)? 

... exact same word as in the Lord's Prayer.  So, since you are not one of the 12, why do you pray as Jesus instructed you, ".... as WE forgive....." since you insist we don't have the P.O.W.E.R. ?

"  Does it refer the the 12 Apostles?   The RC Denomination?   Christians?

Do you pray as Jesus instructed you to, namely, ".... as WE forgive.....?" 
Is Paul teaching that you and I should not forgive, should not be reconciling, rather only the 12 Apostles are to pursue that (they're all dead,  you know)? 






In Matt 16:18-19, 18:17-18 and John 20:21-23, Jesus gave the Apostles the power to FORGIVE sins.  That's why he said, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 11:42:05
Jesus never mentioned POWER.  That's an RC Denomination obsession.  Read Matthew 20:20-28.

IF Jesus gave "POWER" to only the Apostles to forgive sins, they He didn't give it to your priest (unless he is one of the 12) or to Paul (who wasn't in the room). 

And all His preaching and commands about forgiveness were all wrong, since according to you, only 12 men could forgive  (and they'd been dead for over 1900 years).

Josiah - the only reason I keep repeating the same answer to you time and again is not really for your benefit.  It is for those people who are reading this thread who may not know the truth.  I am convinced that nobody on this planet could be as clueless as you appear to be and I know that you probably aren't - at least I HOPE so.

I think that you believe that if you repeat the same inane lines over and over - SOMEbody will listen.  I will repeat what I have told you ad nauseam - not for your sake, but for their sake:

Catholic Bishops have valid Apostolic Succession spoken of in Acts 1, when Matthias took Judas' office (episkopoi).  Apostolic Succession is SCRIPTURAL and TRADITIONAL, as we find in the Writings of the Early Church Fathers like Ignatius of Antioch.

Therefore, my priest, who was ordained by a Bishop with valid Apostolic Succession has the charisms of the Apostles conferred upon him, such as hearing confessions and forgiving sins in Jesus' name.

I realize this won't sink in with you but others may read and absorb it in the midst of your lies and acusations . . .
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 11:50:48
Jesus never mentioned POWER.  That's an RC Denomination obsession.  Read Matthew 20:20-28.

Ummmm . . . Matt. 20:20-28 has NOTHING to do with this conversation because Jesus isn't singling out any individual Apostle here.  He is telling them that they should not seek to be greater than one another.

As for Jesus never mentioning POWER - you have once again shown your ignorance of the Scriptures:

Matt. 28:18-20
Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All POWER in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Josiah on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 13:25:41



Jesus never mentioned POWER.  That's an RC Denomination obsession.  Read Matthew 20:20-28.

IF Jesus gave "POWER" to only the Apostles to forgive sins, they He didn't give it to your priest (unless he is one of the 12) or to Paul (who wasn't in the room). 

And all His preaching and commands about forgiveness were all wrong, since according to you, only 12 men could forgive  (and they'd been dead for over 1900 years).





Catholic Bishops have valid Apostolic Succession spoken of in Acts 1, when Matthias took Judas' office (episkopoi).  Apostolic Succession is SCRIPTURAL



1.  I again fail to see how your "reply" has anything to do with what you claim to be "replying" to.


2. The RC Denomination claims that IT has "valid Apostolic Succession" ( that it, unmitigated, unaccountable P.O.W.E.R.). 


3.  Your whole premise is that ONLY the 12 Apostles may forgive sins.   And yet, you keep contradicting your premise.  Which is it?  Only the 12 may forgive or ONLY the RC Denomination may forgive?   And where did Jesus say either of those things?


4.  No.  There is no Scripture that says the 12 ALONE had the POWER to forgive and that somehow, this was re-gifted to the RC Denomination by itself.   Nope, it's not there.   All that have (or even can) read the Bible know this.






.

Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 13:44:16
1.  I again fail to see how your "reply" has anything to do with what you claim to be "replying" to.

2. The RC Denomination claims that IT has "valid Apostolic Succession" ( that it, unmitigated, unaccountable P.O.W.E.R.).  

3.  Your whole premise is that ONLY the 12 Apostles may forgive sins.   And yet, you keep contradicting your premise.  Which is it?  Only the 12 may forgive or ONLY the RC Denomination may forgive?   And where did Jesus say either of those things?

4.  No.  There is no Scripture that says the 12 ALONE had the POWER to forgive and that somehow, this was re-gifted to the RC Denomination by itself.   Nope, it's not there.   All that have (or even can) read the Bible know this.

Let's see - I've provided Scriptural proof and evidence for the Early Church to back up my claims of Apostolic Succession and the binding and loosing of sins.

You've provided . . . let's see . . . SQUAT.
Angry rants and inane diatribes as usual . . .

Come back to the table when you have some Scriptural or historical support for your rants.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Josiah on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 15:46:46


1.  I again fail to see how your "reply" has anything to do with what you claim to be "replying" to.


2. The RC Denomination claims that IT has "valid Apostolic Succession" ( that it, unmitigated, unaccountable P.O.W.E.R.). 


3.  Your whole premise is that ONLY the 12 Apostles may forgive sins.   And yet, you keep contradicting your premise.  Which is it?  Only the 12 may forgive or ONLY the RC Denomination may forgive?   And where did Jesus say either of those things?


4.  No.  There is no Scripture that says the 12 ALONE had the POWER to forgive and that somehow, this was re-gifted to the RC Denomination by itself.   Nope, it's not there.   All that have (or even can) read the Bible know this.



Let's see - I've provided Scriptural proof to back up my claims of Apostolic Succession and the binding and loosing of sins.



Not yet....


Your point has been that there were TWELVE men who may forgive sins (and of course, we all know all 12 are dead, have been for some time now).   

You've given NO Scripture that says that actually, the RC Denomination was given this POWER (or that it took it from the 12, re-gifting it to itself).  You've given NOTHING that says any Apostle re-gifted it to anyone or anything - much less specifically and solely to the RC Denomination or to your priest.  Nothing so far.  Do you have something? 






.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 16:30:22
Your point has been that there were TWELVE men who may forgive sins (and of course, we all know all 12 are dead, have been for some time now).   

You've given NO Scripture that says that actually, the RC Denomination was given this POWER (or that it took it from the 12, re-gifting it to itself).  You've given NOTHING that says any Apostle re-gifted it to anyone or anything - much less specifically and solely to the RC Denomination or to your priest.  Nothing so far.  Do you have something?

Absolutely.

Regarding the replacement for Judas, the following CLEARLY illustrates Apostolic Succession.  If one is replacing another in his office, he is taking with him all of the authority and power bestowed by Christ.  In John 20, Jesus told the apostles, "As the Father has sent me – so I send you.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Ladonia on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 16:36:44


1.  I again fail to see how your "reply" has anything to do with what you claim to be "replying" to.


2. The RC Denomination claims that IT has "valid Apostolic Succession" ( that it, unmitigated, unaccountable P.O.W.E.R.).  


3.  Your whole premise is that ONLY the 12 Apostles may forgive sins.   And yet, you keep contradicting your premise.  Which is it?  Only the 12 may forgive or ONLY the RC Denomination may forgive?   And where did Jesus say either of those things?


4.  No.  There is no Scripture that says the 12 ALONE had the POWER to forgive and that somehow, this was re-gifted to the RC Denomination by itself.   Nope, it's not there.   All that have (or even can) read the Bible know this.



Let's see - I've provided Scriptural proof to back up my claims of Apostolic Succession and the binding and loosing of sins.



Not yet....


Your point has been that there were TWELVE men who may forgive sins (and of course, we all know all 12 are dead, have been for some time now).  

You've given NO Scripture that says that actually, the RC Denomination was given this POWER (or that it took it from the 12, re-gifting it to itself).  You've given NOTHING that says any Apostle re-gifted it to anyone or anything - much less specifically and solely to the RC Denomination or to your priest.  Nothing so far.  Do you have something?  






.

Ok, how about when the apostles went around "laying hands" and "praying"on people and making them Deacons and Presbyters.? In other words, ordaining them to be leaders and servants of the Church. The word "priest" I believe comes from the word presbyters. Now, since they had that power, they did indeed do as you say, they "re-gifted" the gift they received from Jesus Christ. I don't see any reason not to believe that this happened. You either believe or you don't, simple as that.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Josiah on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 16:51:25


Your point has been that there were TWELVE men who may forgive sins (and of course, we all know all 12 are dead, have been for some time now).   

You've given NO Scripture that says that actually, the RC Denomination was given this POWER (or that it took it from the 12, re-gifting it to itself).  You've given NOTHING that says any Apostle re-gifted it to anyone or anything - much less specifically and solely to the RC Denomination or to your priest.  Nothing so far.  Do you have something?



Absolutely.


.



Did you read my post?





Quote
Regarding the replacement for Judas, the following CLEARLY illustrates Apostolic Succession.  If one is replacing another in his office, he is taking with him all of the authority and power bestowed by Christ. 


What power?  (funny how EVERYTHING in Catholicism is about power - the power it itself alone claims that it itself has).


No.  We have ONE example (never repeated - at least as indicated by Scripture, not Peter, not Paul, not James - all of whom died within the time recorded in the NT) of the office of one Apostle being replaced.   NOTHING about any power.  NOTHING about the RC Denomination. 


 



Quote
In John 20, Jesus told the apostles, "As the Father has sent me – so I send you.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 17:02:22
What power?  (funny how EVERYTHING in Catholicism is about power - the power it itself alone claims that it itself has).

No.  We have ONE example (never repeated - at least as indicated by Scripture, not Peter, not Paul, not James - all of whom died within the time recorded in the NT) of the office of one Apostle being replaced.   NOTHING about any power.  NOTHING about the RC Denomination.
 
REALLY?
Can you tell me how Paul died?
How did Peter die?
Can you tell me WHEN they died?
I didn't think so . . .

Where did He say, "So I'm sending The RC Denomination - in perpetuity, with unmitigated, unaccountable POWER over all Christians?"  

Where is the quote that says, "This POWER to forgive since I give in perpetuity of the RC Denomination?"  Or "to all priests properly ordained exclusively in the RC Denomination?"

Right here:
John 16:12-15
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Sinead on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 17:55:22
Elvisman, you need to be more like Jesus and learn to have a humble attitude.
You cannot pass off your 'opinions' as truth. You are not going to convince anyone to do things the way you think they should be done.


Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Josiah on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 17:56:14
What power?  (funny how EVERYTHING in Catholicism is about power - the power it itself alone claims that it itself has).

No.  We have ONE example (never repeated - at least as indicated by Scripture, not Peter, not Paul, not James - all of whom died within the time recorded in the NT) of the office of one Apostle being replaced.   NOTHING about any power.  NOTHING about the RC Denomination.
 
REALLY?
Can you tell me how Paul died?
How did Peter die?
Can you tell me WHEN they died?



Can you tell me what in the world that has to do with ANYTHING I've posted?

Can you show me in Scripture that these apostles were "replaced?" (or are Peter and James and Paul SO much lesser than Judas and so didn't need to be?)?   Can you explain how "replaced" = "UNMITIGATED, unaccountable POWER to do  (never said) are to be perpetually re-gifted by the RC Denomination to itself?"  And that Matthias is the RC denomination?  Or your priest?







Quote


Where did He say, "So I'm sending The RC Denomination - in perpetuity, with unmitigated, unaccountable POWER over all Christians?"  

Where is the quote that says, "This POWER to forgive since I give in perpetuity of the RC Denomination?"  Or "to all priests properly ordained exclusively in the RC Denomination?"



Right here:
John 16:12-15


You either gave the wrong reference or you are "reading" invisible words.







.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 21:50:37
Elvisman, you need to be more like Jesus and learn to have a humble attitude.
You cannot pass off your 'opinions' as truth. You are not going to convince anyone to do things the way you think they should be done.

And I will restate my position:
I am not here for you or Josiah or anybody else who spreads lies about the Church and tries to pass them off as the truth.  I am here to correct you in front of everybody so that the under-catechized won' fall prey to your deceit.

I have supplied Scripture verse upon Scripture verse along with quotes from the Early Church to support my positions.  You and Josiah have mere spouted off opinions, arrogance and lunacy.

I don't have much patience for liars who delight in misleading others, so if I sound a little curt with both of you . . . Deal with it.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: HRoberson on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 23:16:38
We're going to have to disagree on the Peter-the-first-Pope thing, but that isn't all that important here. We have passages that tell us to "confess our sins one to another." There is no hint in those contexts that this confession is limited to having a special cleric present.

As a low-church (extremely low-church) guy, I am not going to agree with you that clerics have any special sacramental authority. However, I have no problem agreeing that confessing to other believers is a God-ordained thing to do.

Then I suggest you read not only the writings of the Early Church but the Epistle of Jude as well, which deals with the ministerial priesthood and those who tried to usurp it's authority.  In the letter, he even refers to the Rebellion of Korah in the OT and the consequences for what they did.
I don't really want to make this a drawn out debate. Let's just say I have read the writings of the early church and Jude. What I don't see is a priest being required in the churches that Titus and Timothy were to set up. What I do see is elders required and then the development of a priest class over time (through the writings of the early church). Which means (to me) that the churches of Tim and Titus didn't need priests to hear confession (assuming those churches confessed).
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Sinead on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 23:45:15
Nobody is spreading any lies, i think you are paranoid.

I haven't said anything about the catholic church.

I really hope that you contend for your faith in Jesus Christ as much as you contend for the catholic church.

I find your manner very offensive and unchristian.

The only lunacy i see here is your own.

Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:51:52
Elvisman, you need to be more like Jesus and learn to have a humble attitude.
You cannot pass off your 'opinions' as truth. You are not going to convince anyone to do things the way you think they should be done.



I have supplied Scripture verse upon Scripture verse to support my positions. 


Not yet....


You have revealed from Scripture that the CLAIM of the RC Denomination alone for itself alone is Scripturally baseless.    And irrelevant to the issue of the thread.
You have avoid and evaded every question raised to you and every point made (kind of rude, IMO).  You seem to have the view that if you say it - it's just automatically true and if others don't jump on board, they are automatically wrong.  It leaves no room for truth or discussion.  This is a DISCUSSION forum.  It's not a forum for all to docilicly submit to whatever you say, exempting you from the issue of truth.



.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:00:10
Not yet....


You have revealed from Scripture that the CLAIM of the RC Denomination alone for itself alone is Scripturally baseless.    And irrelevant to the issue of the thread.
You have avoid and evaded every question raised to you and every point made (kind of rude, IMO).  You seem to have the view that if you say it - it's just automatically true and if others don't jump on board, they are automatically wrong.  It leaves no room for truth or discussion.  This is a DISCUSSION forum.  It's not a forum for all to docilicly submit to whatever you say, exempting you from the issue of truth.
Nope - I've submitted all of the  verses and Early Chuirch quotes that support Apostolic Succession.

You see, Josiah - you can't do that because your Christian roots only go back about 500 years or so.
Ours go bact the full 2000 . . .
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:10:20


Not yet....


You have revealed from Scripture that the CLAIM of the RC Denomination alone for itself alone is Scripturally baseless.    And irrelevant to the issue of the thread.
You have avoid and evaded every question raised to you and every point made (kind of rude, IMO).  You seem to have the view that if you say it - it's just automatically true and if others don't jump on board, they are automatically wrong.  It leaves no room for truth or discussion.  This is a DISCUSSION forum.  It's not a forum for all to docilicly submit to whatever you say, exempting you from the issue of truth.






Nope - I've submitted all of the  verses and Early Chuirch quotes that support Apostolic Succession.


Perhaps, but that's not a point ANYONE made or ANYONE requested.

What you've NOT done is submit ANYTHING from Scripture that supports Apostolic  Succession.   Obviously.   This has been  made clear repeatedly, but you've avoided and evaded that each time.

Nor to support the claim of the RC Denomination alone that the RC Denomination alone may forgive sins.


Just because YOUR interpretation of invisible words seems to YOU to suggest the RC Denomination might be correct in the claims that it itself alone makes for it itself alone does NOT mean that ergo SCRIPTURE teaches that - a point you seem to not be aware of.   We all realize that the RC Denomination exempts itself exclusively from the issue of truth and that it demands that Catholics do the same, accepting WHATEVER it itself claims "with quiet docility" as "unto God" and "as God speaking" - and it's predictable that you are obeying that - but just because you exempt it doesn't mean everyone else must, can you understand that?   IF you claim something ("Scripture teaches it") then you need to substantiate the statement as TRUE, not just MADE (do you know the difference?).  Your persistent desire to show how Scripture does NOT support your view isn't helping you....   



Note:  Since this thread is ENTIRELY about the RC Denomination's claim that it itself alone may forgive sins, and since it existed since it's beginning in the CATHOLIC forum, I have no idea why it was moved to Protestantism.  There is no Protestant Denomination that claims that it alone may forgive or that the properly ordained clergy of itself alone may do so.





.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:11:00
I don't really want to make this a drawn out debate. Let's just say I have read the writings of the early church and Jude. What I don't see is a priest being required in the churches that Titus and Timothy were to set up. What I do see is elders required and then the development of a priest class over time (through the writings of the early church). Which means (to me) that the churches of Tim and Titus didn't need priests to hear confession (assuming those churches confessed).

Fair enough.

What, then, do you do with Paul's own words on the subject?
2 Cor. 5:18-20
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:19:50


What, then, do you do with Paul's own words on the subject?
2 Cor. 5:18-20
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:21:39
Perhaps, but that's not a point ANYONE made or ANYONE requested.

What you've NOT done is submit ANYTHING from Scripture that supports Apostolic  Succession.   Obviously.   This has been  made clear repeatedly, but you've avoided and evaded that each time.

Nor to support the claim of the RC Denomination alone that the RC Denomination alone may forgive sins.

Just because YOUR interpretation of invisible words seems to YOU to suggest the RC Denomination might be correct in the claims that it itself alone makes for it itself alone does NOT mean that ergo SCRIPTURE teaches that - a point you seem to not be aware of.   We all realize that the RC Denomination exempts itself exclusively from the issue of truth and that it demands that Catholics do the same, accepting WHATEVER it itself claims "with quiet docility" as "unto God" and "as God speaking" - and it's predictable that you are obeying that - but just because you exempt it doesn't mean everyone else must, can you understand that?   IF you claim something ("Scripture teaches it") then you need to substantiate the statement as TRUE, not just MADE (do you know the difference?).  Your persistent desire to show how Scripture does NOT support your view isn't helping you....   

Note:  Since this thread is ENTIRELY about the RC Denomination's claim that it itself alone may forgive sins, and since it existed since it's beginning in the CATHOLIC forum, I have no idea why it was moved to Protestantism.  There is no Protestant Denomination that claims that it alone may forgive or that the properly ordained clergy of itself alone may do so.
These last comments are proof to everybody who has followed this thread that you simply make things up as you go along.

Firs of all - this thread is NOT about the Catholic Church's claim that it alone can forgive sins.  That isn't even a claim of the Catholic Church but another one of your perversions of Catholic Doctrine. You claim that this is "ENTIRELY" what this is about.
The thread is called "Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?"
That's it.  NOTHING about Catholic exclusivity.

I created this thread and am WELL aware of its intent.

All of that being said, I will now further expose your lies because you say that I have not submitted "ANYTHING" from Scripture that supports Apostolic  Succession.  That is yet another lie.  I submitted Acts 1:15-16, which speaks CLEARLY on the subject of Apostolic Succession.  To deny this is to simply bury your head in the sand and hope that it goes away . . .
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:27:04
I submitted Acts 1:15-16, which speaks CLEARLY on the subject of Apostolic Succession.  

You did.  And evaded and avoided EVERY POINT made in response.

It says NOTHING about any power or rights or charms or anything being re-gifted.
JUDAS was replaced, it says NOTHING about anything being re-gifted.
What about James, Peter, Paul - where are the Scriptures about them being "replaced?"  About this sole ability to forgive being re-gifted to whomever "replaced" them?  Where does this text say ANYTHING about forgiveness, clergy, priests or the RC Denomination?   Answer:  it doesn't.   I think you know that.






Quote
I created this thread and am WELL aware of its intent.

And you placed it in the CATHOLIC forum. 
You KEPT it - for 4 pages of posts - in the CATHOLIC forum.
Ergo, you must believe it belongs in the CATHOLIC forum.





.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:48:33
I submitted Acts 1:15-16, which speaks CLEARLY on the subject of Apostolic Succession.  

You did.  And evaded and avoided EVERY POINT made in response.

It says NOTHING about any power or rights or charms or anything being re-gifted.
JUDAS was replaced, it says NOTHING about anything being re-gifted.
What about James, Peter, Paul - where are the Scriptures about them being "replaced?"  About this sole ability to forgive being re-gifted to whomever "replaced" them?  Where does this text say ANYTHING about forgiveness, clergy, priests or the RC Denomination?   Answer:  it doesn't.   I think you know that.

And you placed it in the CATHOLIC forum. 
You KEPT it - for 4 pages of posts - in the CATHOLIC forum.
Ergo, you must believe it belongs in the CATHOLIC forum.

I created it in the Catholic Forum.  However, I don't have the power to move it back - or DO I.
I'm fairly new to this forum.  On other forums, only the Moderators have that privilege . . .

As for Acts 1:15-26 - you siomply have no case.  They did not simply replace Judas to make an even dozen, as so many like you who are ignorant of the Scriptures think.  In these passages, the Apostles harken back to Psalm 109:8, where it says, "May another take his OFFICE."  The Greek word used here is επισκοπην (Episkopae), which means "Bishopric".

The Bishop carries great authority and many responsibilities.  As we see in the Writings of Ignatius, the practice from the FIRST century waas to follow the BISHOPS because they were the LEADERS of the communities:
"Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

Sorry, pal - you LOSE . . .
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 13:01:30
I submitted Acts 1:15-16, which speaks CLEARLY on the subject of Apostolic Succession.  


You did.  And evaded and avoided EVERY POINT made in response.


It says NOTHING about any power or rights or charms or anything being re-gifted.
JUDAS was replaced, it says NOTHING about anything being re-gifted.
What about James, Peter, Paul - where are the Scriptures about them being "replaced?"  About this sole ability to forgive being re-gifted to whomever "replaced" them?  Where does this text say ANYTHING about forgiveness, clergy, priests or the RC Denomination?   Answer:  it doesn't.   I think you know that.




.


As for Acts 1:15-26 - you siomply have no case.  They did not simply replace Judas to make an even dozen, as so many like you who are ignorant of the Scriptures think.  In these passages, the Apostles harken back to Psalm 109:8, where it says, "May another take his OFFICE."  The Greek word used here is επισκοπην (Episkopae), which means "Bishopric".


OFFICE may be that, but there is ZERO evidence that ANY Apostle was a bishop.
Anywhere.


Nor did you show that:
1)  ONLY 12 men had the ability to forgive sins...
2)  Judas re-gifted this after his death (how DID Judas do that, after his death?)
3)  Judas is the RC denomination and/or your priest - or that Matthias is.




Quote
The Bishop carries great authority and many responsibilities.

Where did Jesus or any Apostle say that?

Specifically WHAT "authority" is given exclusively and specifically to "bishops?" 

Where does it say this can be re-gifted to a denomination? 
Or to your priest?





.

 
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 15:06:02
OFFICE may be that, but there is ZERO evidence that ANY Apostle was a bishop.
Anywhere.

As I ALREADY showed you - MANY times - the Apostles WERE bishops and I PROVED it with Scripture:
The Greek word used here is επισκοπην (Episkopae), which means "Bishopric".

What more do you need, my hateful friend??
Nor did you show that:
1)  ONLY 12 men had the ability to forgive sins...
2)  Judas re-gifted this after his death (how DID Judas do that, after his death?)
3)  Judas is the RC denomination and/or your priest - or that Matthias is.

It wasn't for Judas to pass on because he killed himself.  His OFFICE was taken by Matthias, whom the Apostles laid hands on and appointed to take Judas' BISHOPRIC επισκοπην (Episkopae),

Maybe it would help if you wore reading glasses . . .

Where did Jesus or any Apostle say that?

Specifically WHAT "authority" is given exclusively and specifically to "bishops?"

Ummm . . . for starters, lets look at Acts 15 - the Council of Jerusalem.  If you remember, they were there to sette a matter that waas spawned by Judaizers.  In the Letter of the Apostles in that chapter, they (the Apostles) wrote:
Acts 15:24"Since we have heard that some of our number [who went out] without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind".

You see - the Apostles - the EPISKOPOI (Bishops) had ALL Authority over the Church - just as Jesus promised (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23).

NOW - instead of your angry rants - give me some SCRIPTURAL evidence to counter what I have explained.  I'll even take some quotes form the Early Church.
No nonsensical rants, no quotes from your sister, no anti-Catholic myths.
JUST SCRIPTURE and EARLY CHURCH.

CAN you do that?
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 16:06:49
OFFICE may be that, but there is ZERO evidence that ANY Apostle was a bishop.
Anywhere.

As I ALREADY showed you - MANY times - the Apostles WERE bishops and I PROVED it with Scripture:
The Greek word used here is επισκοπην (Episkopae), which means "Bishopric".


I don't accept that the word "Apostle" and "Bishop" are identical....

Or that simply because the word for "office" is the same, ergo Apostles and Bishops are the same.




Quote


Nor did you show that:

1)  ONLY 12 men had the ability to forgive sins...
2)  Judas re-gifted this after his death (how DID Judas do that, after his death?)
3)  Judas is the RC denomination and/or your priest - or that Matthias is.




It wasn't for Judas to pass on because he killed himself. 


.... SO, IF (and you still have don't NOTHING to so indicate), Judas AS AN APOSTLE (not Bishop) got some (as yet mysterious) unmitigated POWER to do (as yet untold) things as a gift from Jesus, then where did Jesus say these are re-gifted to the RCC upon his death and then the RCC can re-gift them to whomever it chooses?   

Where does it say that Matthias go ANY of the (as yet mysterious) POWERS you claim that ONLY the Apostles (and not Bishops) got from Jesus?

And, pray tell, WHAT IN THE WORLD does that have to do with the RC Denomination today or with your priest?





Quote


Where did Jesus or any Apostle say that?

Specifically WHAT "authority" is given exclusively and specifically to "bishops?"




Acts 15:24"Since we have heard that some of our number [who went out] without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind".

You see - the Apostles - the EPISKOPOI (Bishops) had ALL Authority over the Church - just as Jesus promised (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23).


Who is the "us?" 

Matthew 15:24 says nothing about "just as Jesus promised."

Where does this say ANYTHING WHATSOEVER about only the Apostles having the ability to forgive sins, much less that this has been re-gifted to the RC Denomination?





Quote
NOW - give me some SCRIPTURAL evidence to counter what I have explained. 


It's YOUR position, the ball is in YOUR court.


I'm waiting for you to present SOMETHING from Jesus that He authorized ONLY the 12 Apostles to forgive sins, and yet Jesus authorized ONLY priests of the RC Denomination to forgive sins (I'm curious about that blatant contradiction of yours), where Jesus said ANYTHING about ANYONE regifting ANYTHING, where Jesus so much as even mentioned the word "succession" in any context or anything at all, where Scripture says that Apostle = Bishop, and where (pray tell) it says ANYTHING AT ALL about the RC Denomination or the clergy thereof, for anything at all - and specifically that they alone may forgive.   When you have something, we can discuss it.  The ball is in your court.  You are the one insisting that Jesus said and did these things, you have just not yet provided the quotes from Jesus.  Or any Apostle.  Or any Scripture.   







.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Ladonia on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 17:50:23
Elvisman, you need to be more like Jesus and learn to have a humble attitude.
You cannot pass off your 'opinions' as truth. You are not going to convince anyone to do things the way you think they should be done.



I have supplied Scripture verse upon Scripture verse to support my positions.  


Not yet....


You have revealed from Scripture that the CLAIM of the RC Denomination alone for itself alone is Scripturally baseless.    And irrelevant to the issue of the thread.
You have avoid and evaded every question raised to you and every point made (kind of rude, IMO).  You seem to have the view that if you say it - it's just automatically true and if others don't jump on board, they are automatically wrong.  It leaves no room for truth or discussion.  This is a DISCUSSION forum.  It's not a forum for all to docilicly submit to whatever you say, exempting you from the issue of truth.



.

Sorry Josiah, but I believe the Orthodox faith tradition also has the sacrament of reconcilliation with priests also forgiving sins in the name of Jesus Christ. And though we are seperated brothers, I think that the Catholic Church recognizes the validity of their Apostolic Succession and their POWER in this matter.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 12:46:49
I don't accept that the word "Apostle" and "Bishop" are identical....

Or that simply because the word for "office" is the same, ergo Apostles and Bishops are the same.

That’s the beauty of Scripture – it doesn’t depend on YOU for it to be the truth.

The plain fact that I have presented is that Acts 1:20 calls the Apostles BISHOPS because the word used for Judas’ office is επισκοπην (Episkopae), which means "Bishopric".

Your objection to this fact does NOT change the fact that that it is true.
Therefore, unless you can somehow change the meaning of επισκοπην (Episkopae) - you LOSE this argument.
Nor did you show that:

1)  ONLY 12 men had the ability to forgive sins...
2)  Judas re-gifted this after his death (how DID Judas do that, after his death?)
3)  Judas is the RC denomination and/or your priest - or that Matthias is.

.... SO, IF (and you still have don't NOTHING to so indicate), Judas AS AN APOSTLE (not Bishop) got some (as yet mysterious) unmitigated POWER to do (as yet untold) things as a gift from Jesus, then where did Jesus say these are re-gifted to the RCC upon his death and then the RCC can re-gift them to whomever it chooses?   

Where does it say that Matthias go ANY of the (as yet mysterious) POWERS you claim that ONLY the Apostles (and not Bishops) got from Jesus?

And, pray tell, WHAT IN THE WORLD does that have to do with the RC Denomination today or with your priest?

Who is the "us?" 

Matthew 15:24 says nothing about "just as Jesus promised."

Where does this say ANYTHING WHATSOEVER about only the Apostles having the ability to forgive sins, much less that this has been re-gifted to the RC Denomination?

It's YOUR position, the ball is in YOUR court.

I'm waiting for you to present SOMETHING from Jesus that He authorized ONLY the 12 Apostles to forgive sins, and yet Jesus authorized ONLY priests of the RC Denomination to forgive sins (I'm curious about that blatant contradiction of yours), where Jesus said ANYTHING about ANYONE regifting ANYTHING, where Jesus so much as even mentioned the word "succession" in any context or anything at all, where Scripture says that Apostle = Bishop, and where (pray tell) it says ANYTHING AT ALL about the RC Denomination or the clergy thereof, for anything at all - and specifically that they alone may forgive.   When you have something, we can discuss it.  The ball is in your court.  You are the one insisting that Jesus said and did these things, you have just not yet provided the quotes from Jesus.  Or any Apostle.  Or any Scripture.

It cracks me up that you keep using the term, “Re-Gift
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Elvisman on Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 14:51:43
Who is the "us?"

The "Us" in Acts 15:24 is the Apostles.  The council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 CLEARLY shows that THEY were the leaders of the Church.  That's why Paul had to go there to get the final decision about the Judaizers.

They were the Episcopoi - yes, BISHOPS of the Church.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Norton on Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 17:56:01
Jesus never mentioned POWER.  That's an RC Denomination obsession.  Read Matthew 20:20-28.

Ummmm . . . Matt. 20:20-28 has NOTHING to do with this conversation because Jesus isn't singling out any individual Apostle here.  He is telling them that they should not seek to be greater than one another.

As for Jesus never mentioning POWER - you have once again shown your ignorance of the Scriptures:

Matt. 28:18-20
Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All POWER in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: HRoberson on Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 20:56:42
I don't really want to make this a drawn out debate. Let's just say I have read the writings of the early church and Jude. What I don't see is a priest being required in the churches that Titus and Timothy were to set up. What I do see is elders required and then the development of a priest class over time (through the writings of the early church). Which means (to me) that the churches of Tim and Titus didn't need priests to hear confession (assuming those churches confessed).

Fair enough.

What, then, do you do with Paul's own words on the subject?
2 Cor. 5:18-20
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
I'm not sure that all those plurals are speaking exclusively of the apostles, as opposed to the church at large. There is that small saying at the end of Matthew that most people take as a directive to the church rather than a limited number of people.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Josiah on Tue Oct 18, 2011 - 09:30:25
I don't really want to make this a drawn out debate. Let's just say I have read the writings of the early church and Jude. What I don't see is a priest being required in the churches that Titus and Timothy were to set up. What I do see is elders required and then the development of a priest class over time (through the writings of the early church). Which means (to me) that the churches of Tim and Titus didn't need priests to hear confession (assuming those churches confessed).

Fair enough.

What, then, do you do with Paul's own words on the subject?
2 Cor. 5:18-20
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: highrigger on Sun Oct 23, 2011 - 21:36:46
Quote
I think it is correct to link Matt 28:18-20 and John 20:21-23. Jesus received all power and authority and then/therefore gave the apostles the authority to preach the gospel and pronouce the sins forgiven of those who believed, by baptizing them. We must assume that this authority was given to others besides the 12 apostles or we are all in trouble. The question is: Was this authority given to only the designated successors of the apostles, if there are any designated successors, or to all Christians?

Norton,

As no one knows of any successors to those disciples it must be to all Christians. It simply means we all have the authority to preach the forgiveness of God.

I have no objection to anyone going to a priest to confess their sins. We are taught to confess in our church and protestants do that also. My objection is the claim that ONLY a priest will do and we cannot go direct to God. That view is against scripture.
Peace, JohnR
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Norton on Sat Oct 29, 2011 - 14:13:17
I agree. All who put their faith in Christ are successors to the apostles. We are told to confess our sins one to another. And John tells us to pray for one who has commited sin. In neither case is it taught that laity confess to clergy or that only the clergy can pray for the laity who have commited sins.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: p.rehbein on Wed Dec 28, 2011 - 07:19:15
All of this has been an interesting read, but, shoot, there is a simple answer to the question title of the thread ya know.....

We don't have Priests.................so what would be the purpose of our confessing sins to them?

 ::pondering:: ::shrug::


Now, if you are asking, why do Protestants object to Catholics confessing sins to a Priest, OK!  In that case, go ahead with your discussion..............

Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: asachild on Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 05:02:09
Quote
Then I suggest you read not only the writings of the Early Church but the Epistle of Jude as well, which deals with the ministerial priesthood and those who tried to usurp it's authority.  In the letter, he even refers to the Rebellion of Korah in the OT and the consequences for what they did.

* Godless men who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality

* deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

* the dreamers pollute their own bodies in a way similar to Sodom and Gomorrah in sexual immorality and perversion.

* these dreamers reject authority and slander celestial beings.

* these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand compared to the archangel Michael saying 'the Lord rebuke you' in a dispute with Satan over Moses' body.

* they have taken the way of Cain

* rushed for profit into Balaam's error

* destroyed in Korah's rebellion

* Shepherds who feed only themselves

There's more, but I think it's clear that there's more to this than rebellion against an alleged ministerial priesthood. 

Regards,
AsAChild
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: asachild on Mon Jan 16, 2012 - 05:28:13
Quote
JUDAS was replaced, it says NOTHING about anything being re-gifted.
What about James, Peter, Paul - where are the Scriptures about them being "replaced?"  About this sole ability to forgive being re-gifted to whomever "replaced" them?

It's probably my own quirk, but I have always looked at the election of Matthias as another Peter impetuosity.

It seemed to me that Saul/Paul was already in the queue as the 12th.  Jesus had told them to *wait* for the Holy Spirit, and this casting of lots occurred before the Holy Spirit's arrival. 

Compare the descriptions in Act 1:15

"In those days Peter stood up among the believers <...> and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled... Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us."

and then in Acts 13:2 "While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the *Holy Spirit* said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul...."

Jesus was not bound within and limited to a box of "from John's baptism" to His being "taken up from us."   Hence we have Saul on the road to Damascus having a close-up encounter with the risen Lord.   Paul was called directly by the Lord Jesus - no apostolic succession from the original apostles, no rules of 'one of the men who have been with us since...'

Regards,
AsAChild
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: highrigger on Tue May 01, 2012 - 14:48:17
Quote
Jesus was not bound within and limited to a box of "from John's baptism" to His being "taken up from us."   Hence we have Saul on the road to Damascus having a close-up encounter with the risen Lord.   Paul was called directly by the Lord Jesus - no apostolic succession from the original apostles, no rules of 'one of the men who have been with us since...'

asachild,

The Mattias selection had nothing to do with apostolic succession anyway. Neither did laying of hands have anything to do with ordination. That theory is just made up and not the case at all. Laying of hands was a blessing used for many things, but never for ordination. Here is Raymond Brown to explain.

"1. Antioch church sends Barnabas and Saul; Mission to Cyprus and SE Asia monor (Acts 13;1-14:28)

In this context of prayer and fasting, hands are laid on Barnabas and Saul. We should not
anachronistically speak of this as an ordination; it is a commissioning by the church of Antioc
for a mission that is often counted as the first Pauline journey and dated to AD 46-49."
Raymond Brown, Introduction to the New Testament, P 303, Imprimatur.

I get tired of the assertion that thee were priests or some kind of clergy in the NT. There was none.

Peace, JohnR
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: p.rehbein on Tue May 29, 2012 - 19:32:48
 ::pondering::
well, we can commit a sin against God........and we can commit a sin against man............
 ::pondering::
......if I commit a sin against God, I confess that sin to my Intercessor, my Saviour and Lord, and He represents me in front of God for that sin to be pardoned...........covered by His blood............

.......if I commit a sin against man (a fellow believer, or other), then I confess that sin to them and ask their forgiveness.........

This is how I do it, now you are free to do as you wish.........and God bless ya, but I don't need a Priest to confess my sins to..........just saying...........

(my thoughts only............)
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: FireSword on Tue Jun 26, 2012 - 14:45:26
Also, by the very verse you quoted for this topic, what is the priest for?  It said forgive the sins of one another, it didn't say go to a priest and be granted forgiveness from him.  

The verse was an admonishment to the body of Christ on forgiving one another, not an instruction to continue an Old Testament practice that was no longer needed once Jesus the High Priest came.

But, I do have a question. Your posts seem to be posed in the form of a questions as a gateway for you to judge and insult the protestants.  How is that productive to the edification and building of the church?



Elvisman,  is this true?
NO.  Kensington is wrong.  Here's why:
The generally accepted rule of hermeneutics (biblical interpretation) is that when Jesus spoke to the crowds, he spoke to ALL of us.  When Jesus instructed the Twelve, it was to the leaders of the Church.

The practice of telling our sins directly to a priest is based directly in Scripture. THREE times in the Gospels (Matt. 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23), we read where Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins or to hold them bound.  This is not a something that Jesus took lightly.  In John 20:21-23, Jesus (who is God) breathes on the Apostles as he is giving them this power:
"(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you.  As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU retain are retained."


The fact that Jesus breathed on the Apostles when entrusted them with this ministry is highly significant because he doesn’t do this anywhere else in the New Testament.  In fact, there are only two times in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man:
The first is when he breathed life into Adam.  The second is here in John’s Gospel when he is giving them the power to forgive or retain sins.

You forgot about when Jesus breathed upon them and said receive ye the holy ghost.


Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: highrigger on Tue Jul 24, 2012 - 11:19:48
Quote
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

elvisman,

Your scripture never says there should be priests to forgive the sins of others. In fact Jesus shows we should pray and repent directly to God in the Lords Prayer and in the parable of the tax collector and the pharisee. (Luke 18:9)

In fact just because such scripture is shown in your CCC does not mean the apostle had CCC intent when he wrote that scripture. Here is Fr Raymond Brown to explain.

"In terms of what we might call the literal sense of Scripture, ie, what a verse
meant when it was first written, it is doubtful that the Roman Catholic Church has ever defined the meaning of any passage. The church has defined that some ot its doctrines are related to scriptural passages, but not necessarily that those doctrines were in the minds of the poeple who wrote the passages. Thus, a conflict between private interpretation and church doctrine based on scripture is really not relevant to the type of commentary help That I have been describing.
  I remember with sad amusement the observation made by a reviewer in a popular evaluation of a long commentary I had done. He stated he was grateful that he did
not have to bother with my opinions or those of others since he preached only what the Catholic Church taught about this particular book. Since the church had never interpreted the literal meaning of any passage in that book, I wondered exactly what he found to preach. What he really meant, I am sure, is that he preached the opinions about the book that he had been taught when he was in the seminary, and he did not want to botherseeing whether those opinions still represented where most scholars stood today."
Raymond Brown, Q15 - 101 Questions and Answers to the Bible. Page 25. Imprimatur

You should not use the verses shown in your CCC to support the CCC. They are not intended to do so and of course provide no support anyway as known by bible experts.

Peace, JohnR

Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Hartofgold8679 on Tue Jul 24, 2012 - 12:33:31
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Hi Elvisman, I have a question that may or may not pertain to this thread but you seem to have knowledge on the topic of forgivness of sins where the Catholic faith is concerned. Is there a difference in forgiviness of sins before Jesus died and rose again versus after? My question has to do with Hebrews 10, especialy 10;10-18. As I understand that there is no longer any need to ask forgiveness, once we have been saved , because Jesus has already taken care of that for us past present and future(heb 10;10,12) That we as beleivers should not have a conscience of sin(Heb 10;2)and that God no longer remebers our sin (Heb 10;16,17) His blood covers our sins for life so why are we asking anyone for forgivness, unless you are not saved then you must confess your sins and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins(1John 1;9) I do understand what you say about the apostles, and someone posted about the Lords prayer, which states forgive us as we forgive those, I don't see that as apilicable now becasue Jesus has defeated all sin for all time. I may be simple or wrong but thats why I ask. I see nothing wrong with going to a preist to confess sins but based on what I have read, right or wrong, the giving of forgivness has already been done by Jesus.

Truly and Humbly Yours.
Anastasia
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: highrigger on Sat Aug 25, 2012 - 15:22:25
Quote
The fact that Jesus breathed on the Apostles when entrusted them with this
ministry is highly significant because he doesn’t do this
anywhere else in the New Testament.  In fact, there are only two times
in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on
man:
The first is when he breathed life into
Adam.  The second is here in John’s Gospel when he is giving
them the power to forgive or retain sins.

Quote

I am Catholic through and through. Already believe  what you said. But you
misread by question. I meant you to answer  question this posed by our brother:
"Your posts seem to be posed  in the form of a questions as a gateway for you to
judge and insult the Protestants"?

Ladonia,
 
We dont take it as such. We all know how elvisman is. The funny thing is he spouts things simply false. Jesus is not stated to have breathed on anyone. Where did he get that from? This is comical.
But I will answer the basic question here. The reason we pray direct to the face of God is because Jesus taught us to do exactly that. It is in the Lords Prayer and anyone who studies the bible can see that.
Another example of Jesus teaching how to pray is his parable of the tax collector and the pharisee who asked Gods forgiveness and walked away from the temple justified.
In fact Jesus no where directs us to pray to anyone but God.
Why dont you pray the way Jesus taught? That is the real question.
What moved you to change from his direct teaching in the NT?
Peace, JohnR
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: AnnaM on Sun Aug 11, 2013 - 17:45:11
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

I believe it is because they lack humility.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: DaveW on Mon Aug 12, 2013 - 05:24:14

We dont take it as such. We all know how elvisman is. The funny thing is he spouts things simply false. Jesus is not stated to have breathed on anyone. Where did he get that from? This is comical.

Um - what does it say here?

John 20.21 (NASB) So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit."
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: DaveW on Mon Aug 12, 2013 - 05:29:31
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
I believe it is because they lack humility.
Not necessarily.

The idea of confessing sin to a person just looks too "catholic" to most protestants. Just like using matzah for communion is too Jewish.  When you are brought up believing that Catholicism and Judaism are false religions, one tries to avoid anything that looks like them.

I would chalk both up to reactions from ignorance rather than pride.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: AVZ on Mon Aug 12, 2013 - 05:48:34
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
I believe it is because they lack humility.
Not necessarily.

The idea of confessing sin to a person just looks too "catholic" to most protestants. Just like using matzah for communion is too Jewish.  When you are brought up believing that Catholicism and Judaism are false religions, one tries to avoid anything that looks like them.

I would chalk both up to reactions from ignorance rather than pride.

I think Protestants have a problem with the idea of someone else but God forgiving their sins, or such a person giving them some kind of punishment such as "pray 12x this" or "do that".
It is not so much the confession part, but the forgiving part that they object to.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: DaveW on Mon Aug 12, 2013 - 06:34:55
That well could be.  But there is definite scriptural support for men granting forgiveness. 

John 20.23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: AVZ on Mon Aug 12, 2013 - 07:04:34
That well could be.  But there is definite scriptural support for men granting forgiveness. 

John 20.23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

True. But that was said to the Apostles. And as we know Protestants don't really swallow the claim of apostolic succession.
Fine tuning my statement above I would say that Protestants think that one man having some kind of authority to forgive, looks too much like one man acting on behalf of God.
As if God is no longer required in the process of forgiveness.

While thinking of this I do realize that confession in the Catholic Church also not really is what it is supposed to be in James 5:16
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: DaveW on Mon Aug 12, 2013 - 07:27:31
Apostolic succession is not even a blip on most protestants' radar screens.

Most of those statements are taken to apply to ALL church leaders or even all believers.  This is no different.

Whatever it looks like - no self respecting sola scriptura person can ignore that verse. You have to do something with it.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: AVZ on Mon Aug 12, 2013 - 07:42:17
Apostolic succession is not even a blip on most protestants' radar screens.

Most of those statements are taken to apply to ALL church leaders or even all believers.  This is no different.

Whatever it looks like - no self respecting sola scriptura person can ignore that verse. You have to do something with it.

I agree. But I would like to stay within the frameset of the original question, which, looks to me a Catholic issue.
And the issue here is why Protestants would object to confession exclusively to a priest (in the Catholic sense of going for confession).

I think Protestants, if they confess to one another, they don't see that such a thing necessarily needs involvement of a priest, or even as a regular event.
In any case, James 5:16 seems to say that when you confess your sins to one another, all should pray.

The Catholic response to confession is not prayer, but a statement of forgiveness with or without a form of penance.
Now I am not saying that one is right and the other is not, but I can see that James 5:16 does not limit itself to a confessional and a priest.

To me the idea of regular confession to a priest or pastor seems very intelligible. I would be quite in favor of this to be honest.
But I also wonder if confession in a secret shady and anonymous closet really reflects the idea of James 5:16
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: DaveW on Mon Aug 12, 2013 - 08:44:49
To me it is one of several possible acceptable implementatins of James 5:16.  It is certainly not the only one or even the best one.  But it is a SAFE one from a certain human viewpoint.

The "sanctity" of the confessional has similar safeguards to attorney-client privedge and doctor-patient confidentiality.  That is to keep tattlers and busybodies from spreading gossip over what was confessed. Presumably that makes one feel safe enough to actually confess sins.  Whether extending it to that degree is healthy or not is debatable.

"Confess" means to "say with;" meaning agreement.  Scripture says xyz is a sin and I did xyz and confess (say with the scripture) that it is a sin.  That is SUPPOSED to also mean repentance (turning away from that sin) but often that aspect of confession is not stressed and gets lost/overlooked.

As to pronouncing forgiveness; it requires the person on the pronouncing side (the one being confessed to) to be familiar with the leading of the Holy Spirit enough to sense from Him if this confesser is being honest and complete and is truly repentant. That is something only God can know.  So then it is the place of the one being confessed to to pronounce forgiveness (in the case of true repentance) or no forgiveness (no repentance).  In that he is agreeing and confessing (saying with) the scriptures that one is forgiven.  It leaves the actual forgiveness in God's hands but leaves the communication of that fact to us.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: FireSword on Mon Aug 12, 2013 - 11:20:45
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
I believe it is because they lack humility.
Not necessarily.

The idea of confessing sin to a person just looks too "catholic" to most protestants. Just like using matzah for communion is too Jewish.  When you are brought up believing that Catholicism and Judaism are false religions, one tries to avoid anything that looks like them.

I would chalk both up to reactions from ignorance rather than pride.

It's also a matter of trust. Catholic priests are sworn to secrecy even if those secrets revealed could convict criminals.
Protestants pastors are not under such convictions.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: AVZ on Mon Aug 12, 2013 - 11:55:20
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
I believe it is because they lack humility.

Not necessarily.

The idea of confessing sin to a person just looks too "catholic" to most protestants. Just like using matzah for communion is too Jewish.  When you are brought up believing that Catholicism and Judaism are false religions, one tries to avoid anything that looks like them.

I would chalk both up to reactions from ignorance rather than pride.


It's also a matter of trust. Catholic priests are sworn to secrecy even if those secrets revealed could convict criminals.
Protestants pastors are not under such convictions.



Hmmm...this may actually vary per state or per country.
http://blog.managingyourchurch.com/2012/04/is_a_confession_to_a_pastor_al.html (http://blog.managingyourchurch.com/2012/04/is_a_confession_to_a_pastor_al.html)

Reading up on a few stories online, I would say that there are also instances that confession really raises some ethical issues.
For example the next story where a priest knew that an innocent person was jailed.
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=130794&page=1 (http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=130794&page=1)

The question that arises is: what is more ethical. Breaking confidentiality, or letting an innocent man go to jail.
Difficult dilemma if you ask me.

And there are more stories online.
Actually, depending on which side of the argument for/against ethic behavior you choose, you could come up with some very strong arguments for/against confidentiality.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: FireSword on Mon Aug 12, 2013 - 12:09:44
John of Nepomuk (or John Nepomucene) (Czech: Jan Nepomucký) (c. 1345 – March 20, 1393)[1] is a national saint of the Czech Republic, who was drowned in the Vltava river at the behest of Wenceslaus, King of the Romans and King of Bohemia. Later accounts state that he was the confessor of the queen of Bohemia and refused to divulge the secrets of the confessional. On the basis of this account, John of Nepomuk is considered the first martyr of the Seal of the Confessional, a patron against calumnies and, because of the manner of his death, a protector from floods.[1]

wiki
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: chosenone on Mon Aug 12, 2013 - 12:55:05
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
I believe it is because they lack humility.
Not necessarily.

The idea of confessing sin to a person just looks too "catholic" to most protestants. Just like using matzah for communion is too Jewish.  When you are brought up believing that Catholicism and Judaism are false religions, one tries to avoid anything that looks like them.

I would chalk both up to reactions from ignorance rather than pride.

It's also a matter of trust. Catholic priests are sworn to secrecy even if those secrets revealed could convict criminals.
Protestants pastors are not under such convictions.


No one should be able to keep serious things such as murder, rape, child abuse etc a secret and not report it to the police, especially if more people are in danger of suffering at the hands of this person. I wonder how may RC priests confessed their child abuse sins to another priest, and then carried on abusing.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: FireSword on Mon Aug 12, 2013 - 13:21:15

Quote
No one should be able to keep serious things such as murder, rape, child abuse etc a secret and not report it to the police, especially if more people are in danger of suffering at the hands of this person. I wonder how may RC priests confessed their child abuse sins to another priest, and then carried on abusing.


If they continue doing evil the scriptures say for the church to deal with the problem.



Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: HRoberson on Mon Aug 12, 2013 - 19:51:52
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
I believe it is because they lack humility.
Not necessarily.

The idea of confessing sin to a person just looks too "catholic" to most protestants. Just like using matzah for communion is too Jewish.  When you are brought up believing that Catholicism and Judaism are false religions, one tries to avoid anything that looks like them.

I would chalk both up to reactions from ignorance rather than pride.

It's also a matter of trust. Catholic priests are sworn to secrecy even if those secrets revealed could convict criminals.
Protestants pastors are not under such convictions.

But they enjoy the privelege.
Title: Re: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?
Post by: Reverend M on Sun Nov 10, 2013 - 02:18:07
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

Many don't .

There is an Anglican church at top of my street where the parishioners confess their sins to the priest .

It is normal practice in many Anglican parishes , though they are in the minority nationwide .

Well, that is interesting, I did not know that. I had always heard that us and the Anglicans were the same in many respects, but the confession to a priest aspect I did not know.

Yes , Ladonia , it's common among those Anglicans who term themselves Anglo-Catholic , many of whom use the Roman Missal , and even include "Benedict our Pope" in the Eucharistic Prayer .

This is simply factually incorrect, self described "Anglo-Catholics" will be using one of the many Anglican prayer books in existence, the 1662 BCP or one of it's variants. They don't need to use the Roman Missal, the Anglican church doesn't even have the same liturgical calendar that Rome has.

And they do not include the Pope in any Eucharistic prayer that I am aware of.

Carry on.