Author Topic: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest? (Read 14304 times)

Elvisman · « **on:** Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 12:47:22 »

Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Paulus · « **Reply #1 on:** Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 13:35:25 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 12:47:22

Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

Many don't .

There is an Anglican church at top of my street where the parishioners confess their sins to the priest .

It is normal practice in many Anglican parishes , though they are in the minority nationwide .

Elvisman · « **Reply #2 on:** Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 15:34:56 »

Quote from: Paulus on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 13:35:25

Quote from: Elvisman on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 12:47:22
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

Many don't .

There is an Anglican church at top of my street where the parishioners confess their sins to the priest .

It is normal practice in many Anglican parishes , though they are in the minority nationwide .

Yes, I should have said "MOST" Protestants.

Josiah · « **Reply #3 on:** Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 18:16:26 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 12:47:22

Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Did you MEAN to quote, "If a priest properly ordained in the RC denomination forgives you, you are forgiven - if not, you are eternally damned?" If so, that's what what you posted, you may want to go back and edit your post.

.

Elvisman · « **Reply #4 on:** Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 19:43:03 »

Quote from: Josiah on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 18:16:26

Quote from: Elvisman on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 12:47:22
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Did you MEAN to quote, "If a priest properly ordained in the RC denomination forgives you, you are forgiven - if not, you are eternally damned?" If so, that's what what you posted, you may want to go back and edit your post.

All you have do do is read what I typed. Not really sure why you find it so difficult to follow . . .

PS - The Catholic Church is the stump from which all Protestant sects splintered from. It is not a mere denomination as they are.

kensington · « **Reply #5 on:** Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 19:59:46 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 19:43:03

Quote from: Josiah on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 18:16:26
Quote from: Elvisman on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 12:47:22
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Did you MEAN to quote, "If a priest properly ordained in the RC denomination forgives you, you are forgiven - if not, you are eternally damned?" If so, that's what what you posted, you may want to go back and edit your post.
All you have do do is read what I typed. Not really sure why you find it so difficult to follow . . .

PS - The Catholic Church is the stump from which all Protestant sects splintered from. It is not a mere denomination as they are.

This is insulting and you may want to read the rules on posting such things. You might need to confess that sin.

kensington · « **Reply #6 on:** Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 20:25:21 »

Also, by the very verse you quoted for this topic, what is the priest for? It said forgive the sins of one another, it didn't say go to a priest and be granted forgiveness from him.

The verse was an admonishment to the body of Christ on forgiving one another, not an instruction to continue an Old Testament practice that was no longer needed once Jesus the High Priest came.

But, I do have a question. Your posts seem to be posed in the form of a questions as a gateway for you to judge and insult the protestants. How is that productive to the edification and building of the church?

Josiah · « **Reply #7 on:** Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 20:26:05 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 12:47:22

Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

So, the only ones who may forgive sins were the Apostles. Okay...
Then your priest can't (check the list of the Apostles - his name ain't there).
And I hope when you pray The Lord's Prayer, you delete the petition about ".... as we forgive those that sin against us."

.

Ladonia · « **Reply #8 on:** Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 01:10:36 »

Quote from: Paulus on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 13:35:25

Quote from: Elvisman on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 12:47:22
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

Many don't .

There is an Anglican church at top of my street where the parishioners confess their sins to the priest .

It is normal practice in many Anglican parishes , though they are in the minority nationwide .

Well, that is interesting, I did not know that. I had always heard that us and the Anglicans were the same in many respects, but the confession to a priest aspect I did not know.

Ladonia · « **Reply #9 on:** Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 01:15:03 »

Quote from: kensington on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 20:25:21

Also, by the very verse you quoted for this topic, what is the priest for? It said forgive the sins of one another, it didn't say go to a priest and be granted forgiveness from him.

The verse was an admonishment to the body of Christ on forgiving one another, not an instruction to continue an Old Testament practice that was no longer needed once Jesus the High Priest came.

But, I do have a question. Your posts seem to be posed in the form of a questions as a gateway for you to judge and insult the protestants. How is that productive to the edification and building of the church?

Elvisman, is this true?

Paulus · « **Reply #10 on:** Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 05:10:33 »

Quote from: Ladonia on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 01:10:36

Quote from: Paulus on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 13:35:25
Quote from: Elvisman on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 12:47:22
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

Many don't .

There is an Anglican church at top of my street where the parishioners confess their sins to the priest .

It is normal practice in many Anglican parishes , though they are in the minority nationwide .

Well, that is interesting, I did not know that. I had always heard that us and the Anglicans were the same in many respects, but the confession to a priest aspect I did not know.

Yes , Ladonia , it's common among those Anglicans who term themselves Anglo-Catholic , many of whom use the Roman Missal , and even include "Benedict our Pope" in the Eucharistic Prayer .

Paulus · « **Reply #11 on:** Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 05:17:24 »

Quote from: kensington on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 20:25:21

But, I do have a question. Your posts seem to be posed in the form of a questions as a gateway for you to judge and insult the protestants. How is that productive to the edification and building of the church?

That's rich !

You want to read some of the threads on this forum .

The vitriolic attacks on matters Catholic are very unedifying and destructive of any attempts at producing dialogue .

Elvisman · « **Reply #12 on:** Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 10:09:28 »

Quote from: Josiah on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 20:26:05

Quote from: Elvisman on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 12:47:22
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

So, the only ones who may forgive sins were the Apostles. Okay...
Then your priest can't (check the list of the Apostles - his name ain't there).
And I hope when you pray The Lord's Prayer, you delete the petition about ".... as we forgive those that sin against us."

We can ALL forgive each other when we sin against each other.
However, Jeus didn't give everybody the power to bind and loose - ONLY the Apostles, the first Bishops.

A simple rule of thumb about hermeneutics (biblical interpretation):
When Jesus spoke to the crowds, he spoke to ALL of us.
When Jesus instructed the Twelve, it was to the leaders of the Church.

My priest wasn't on of the Apostles but he is part of the Apostolic succession spoken of in Acts 1:12-26.

READ YOUR BIBLE.

Elvisman · « **Reply #13 on:** Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 10:35:37 »

Quote from: Ladonia on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 01:15:03

Quote from: kensington on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 20:25:21
Also, by the very verse you quoted for this topic, what is the priest for? It said forgive the sins of one another, it didn't say go to a priest and be granted forgiveness from him.

The verse was an admonishment to the body of Christ on forgiving one another, not an instruction to continue an Old Testament practice that was no longer needed once Jesus the High Priest came.

But, I do have a question. Your posts seem to be posed in the form of a questions as a gateway for you to judge and insult the protestants. How is that productive to the edification and building of the church?

Elvisman, is this true?

NO. Kensington is wrong. Here's why:
The generally accepted rule of hermeneutics (biblical interpretation) is that when Jesus spoke to the crowds, he spoke to ALL of us. When Jesus instructed the Twelve, it was to the leaders of the Church.

The practice of telling our sins directly to a priest is based directly in Scripture. THREE times in the Gospels (Matt. 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23), we read where Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins or to hold them bound. This is not a something that Jesus took lightly. In John 20:21-23, Jesus (who is God) breathes on the Apostles as he is giving them this power:
"(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU retain are retained."

The fact that Jesus breathed on the Apostles when entrusted them with this ministry is highly significant because he doesn’t do this anywhere else in the New Testament. In fact, there are only two times in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man:
The first is when he breathed life into Adam. The second is here in John’s Gospel when he is giving them the power to forgive or retain sins.

Ladonia · « **Reply #14 on:** Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 11:42:27 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 10:35:37

Quote from: Ladonia on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 01:15:03
Quote from: kensington on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 20:25:21
Also, by the very verse you quoted for this topic, what is the priest for? It said forgive the sins of one another, it didn't say go to a priest and be granted forgiveness from him.

The verse was an admonishment to the body of Christ on forgiving one another, not an instruction to continue an Old Testament practice that was no longer needed once Jesus the High Priest came.

But, I do have a question. Your posts seem to be posed in the form of a questions as a gateway for you to judge and insult the protestants. How is that productive to the edification and building of the church?

Elvisman, is this true?
NO. Kensington is wrong. Here's why:
The generally accepted rule of hermeneutics (biblical interpretation) is that when Jesus spoke to the crowds, he spoke to ALL of us. When Jesus instructed the Twelve, it was to the leaders of the Church.

The practice of telling our sins directly to a priest is based directly in Scripture. THREE times in the Gospels (Matt. 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23), we read where Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins or to hold them bound. This is not a something that Jesus took lightly. In John 20:21-23, Jesus (who is God) breathes on the Apostles as he is giving them this power:
"(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU retain are retained."

The fact that Jesus breathed on the Apostles when entrusted them with this ministry is highly significant because he doesn’t do this anywhere else in the New Testament. In fact, there are only two times in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man:
The first is when he breathed life into Adam. The second is here in John’s Gospel when he is giving them the power to forgive or retain sins.

I am Catholic through and through. Already believe what you said. But you misread by question. I meant you to answer question this posed by our brother: "Your posts seem to be posed in the form of a questions as a gateway for you to judge and insult the Protestants"?

halfamileadecadecl · « **Reply #15 on:** Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 11:57:26 »

I don't lately I think i would go to a Rabbi just for someone to talk to. I feel though any church will you can discuss your problems with the leadership is a good one.

Paulus · « **Reply #16 on:** Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 12:04:54 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 10:09:28

A simple rule of thumb about hermeneutics (biblical interpretation):
When Jesus spoke to the crowds, he spoke to ALL of us.
When Jesus instructed the Twelve, it was to the leaders of the Church.

A simple rule of thumb , but an ESSENTIAL one if we are not to take Jesus' words out of context and end up with falsehoods .

Josiah · « **Reply #17 on:** Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 12:22:04 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 10:09:28

Quote from: Josiah on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 20:26:05
Quote from: Elvisman on Fri Sep 30, 2011 - 12:47:22
Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to the Church when Jesus emphatically declared this to be true?

In John 20:21-23, Jesus told the Apostles:
“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

So, the only ones who may forgive sins were the Apostles. Okay...
Then your priest can't (check the list of the Apostles - his name ain't there).
And I hope when you pray The Lord's Prayer, you delete the petition about ".... as we forgive those that sin against us."
We can ALL forgive each other when we sin against each other.
However, Jeus didn't give everybody the power to bind and loose - ONLY the Apostles, the first Bishops.

A simple rule of thumb about hermeneutics (biblical interpretation):
When Jesus spoke to the crowds, he spoke to ALL of us.
When Jesus instructed the Twelve, it was to the leaders of the Church.

I see. And of course, He never once spoke to the RC Denomination. Or to your priest.

Do you delete that part of the Lord's Prayer where Jesus taught to pray, ".... as WE forgive those that sin against us?" IF you don't, are you an Apostle? An RC priest?

.

Elvisman · « **Reply #18 on:** Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 14:14:48 »

Quote from: Ladonia on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 11:42:27

I am Catholic through and through. Already believe what you said. But you misread by question. I meant you to answer question this posed by our brother: "Your posts seem to be posed in the form of a questions as a gateway for you to judge and insult the Protestants"?

Not at all.
I have read a LOT of misconceptions about Catholic beliefs on this forum that are based on either ignorance or plain old anti-Catholicism. I want to know WHY people believe what they believe about the Church to educate them about Church doctrine.

Correcting false notions about what the Church teaches is a spiritual work of mercy.

Elvisman · « **Reply #19 on:** Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 14:17:00 »

Quote from: Paulus on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 12:04:54

Quote from: Elvisman on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 10:09:28
A simple rule of thumb about hermeneutics (biblical interpretation):
When Jesus spoke to the crowds, he spoke to ALL of us.
When Jesus instructed the Twelve, it was to the leaders of the Church.

A simple rule of thumb , but an ESSENTIAL one if we are not to take Jesus' words out of context and end up with falsehoods .

Elvisman · « **Reply #20 on:** Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 14:22:49 »

Quote from: Josiah on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 12:22:04

I see. And of course, He never once spoke to the RC Denomination. Or to your priest.

Do you delete that part of the Lord's Prayer where Jesus taught to pray, ".... as WE forgive those that sin against us?" IF you don't, are you an Apostle? An RC priest?

And you apparently ignored my earlier post where I answered this questioned
We can ALL forgive each other when we sin against each other.
However, Jeus didn't give everybody the power to bind and loose - ONLY the Apostles, the first Bishops.

A simple rule of thumb about hermeneutics (biblical interpretation):
When Jesus spoke to the crowds, he spoke to ALL of us.
When Jesus instructed the Twelve, it was to the leaders of the Church.

My priest wasn't on of the Apostles but he is part of the Apostolic succession spoken of in Acts 1:12-26.

READ YOUR BIBLE.

Josiah · « **Reply #21 on:** Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 14:31:00 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 14:22:49

Quote from: Josiah on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 12:22:04
I see. And of course, He never once spoke to the RC Denomination. Or to your priest.

Do you delete that part of the Lord's Prayer where Jesus taught to pray, ".... as WE forgive those that sin against us?" IF you don't, are you an Apostle? An RC priest?

We can ALL forgive each other when we sin against each other.
-

Then we should confess our sins to those who may forgive.... And as you state, that's not just priests.

Quote

However, Jeus didn't give everybody the power to bind and loose ONLY the Apostles, the first Bishops.

Got it; so only the 12 to whom Jesus spoke may "bind and loose" Okay, then unless your priest is listed among the 12, then he has no such ability (however such is different than forgiving).

Quote

READ YOUR BIBLE.

That's my advise to you. IF you do, you won't see the RC denomination so much as even mentioned - for anything, about anything, concerning anything - at any time or in any context. Nor will you see ANYTHING about the necessity of confession our sins to a man ordained as a priest in one specific denomination (yours, I suspect) - or any other. Read the Book.

.

Elvisman · « **Reply #22 on:** Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 01:27:59 »

Quote from: Josiah on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 14:31:00

Then we should confess our sins to those who may forgive.... And as you state, that's not just priests.
Got it; so only the 12 to whom Jesus spoke may "bind and loose" Okay, then unless your priest is listed among the 12, then he has no such ability (however such is different than forgiving).

That's my advise to you. IF you do, you won't see the RC denomination so much as even mentioned - for anything, about anything, concerning anything - at any time or in any context. Nor will you see ANYTHING about the necessity of confession our sins to a man ordained as a priest in one specific denomination (yours, I suspect) - or any other. Read the Book.

EVERYBODY should forgive. NOT everybody has the power to bind and loose sine - ONLY those who have valid Apostolic succession like my priest.
This is the THIRD time I have had to explain this to you
However, Jeus didn't give everybody the power to bind and loose ONLY the Apostles, the first Bishops, and they passed it down. READ Acts 1 where they replaced Judas by laying hands on Matthias, which fulfilled the prophecy, "Let another take his office."

It's late and I'm going to bed. In the morning, I will provide you with further Scriptural and historic proof of confessing your sins to the Church.

Ladonia · « **Reply #23 on:** Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 01:56:24 »

Quote from: Josiah on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 14:31:00

Quote from: Elvisman on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 14:22:49
Quote from: Josiah on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 12:22:04
I see. And of course, He never once spoke to the RC Denomination. Or to your priest.

Do you delete that part of the Lord's Prayer where Jesus taught to pray, ".... as WE forgive those that sin against us?" IF you don't, are you an Apostle? An RC priest?

We can ALL forgive each other when we sin against each other.
-

Then we should confess our sins to those who may forgive.... And as you state, that's not just priests.

Quote
However, Jeus didn't give everybody the power to bind and loose ONLY the Apostles, the first Bishops.

Got it; so only the 12 to whom Jesus spoke may "bind and loose" Okay, then unless your priest is listed among the 12, then he has no such ability (however such is different than forgiving).

Quote
READ YOUR BIBLE.

That's my advise to you. IF you do, you won't see the RC denomination so much as even mentioned - for anything, about anything, concerning anything - at any time or in any context. Nor will you see ANYTHING about the necessity of confession our sins to a man ordained as a priest in one specific denomination (yours, I suspect) - or any other. Read the Book.

.

What you miss about the "power" issue is, once it was given to the Apostles, they then had the power to give that power to others. And they did! The "binding and loosing" and "forgiving" abilities made it's way through the succession process to this very day. If all this wasn't intended by Christ to continue, everything would have ended with the death's of the Apostles. No preaching the gospel, no worship services, healings, casting out of the devil, no Communion, nothing, nada - it all would have stopped cold. Then where would we be?

Josiah · « **Reply #24 on:** Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 09:02:06 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 01:27:59

Quote from: Josiah on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 14:31:00

Then we should confess our sins to those who may forgive.... And as you state, that's not just priests.
Got it; so only the 12 to whom Jesus spoke may "bind and loose" Okay, then unless your priest is listed among the 12, then he has no such ability (however such is different than forgiving).

That's my advise to you. IF you do, you won't see the RC denomination so much as even mentioned - for anything, about anything, concerning anything - at any time or in any context. Nor will you see ANYTHING about the necessity of confession our sins to a man ordained as a priest in one specific denomination (yours, I suspect) - or any other. Read the Book.

EVERYBODY should forgive. NOT everybody has the power to bind and loose sine - ONLY those who have valid Apostolic succession like my priest.

1. Then, if you want forgiveness - why go to a priest?

2. The Bible never mentions apostolic succession or your priest. What you stressed is that Jesus promised this ONLY to the 12 Apostles, not to any others. Then, according to you, ONLY the 12 Apostles can bind and loose. They're dead. I think you know that. Your priest is not one of them.

Quote

It's late and I'm going to bed. In the morning, I will provide you with further Scriptural and historic proof of confessing your sins to the Church.

No one here has disagreed with the value of confessing our sins to Christians.
What some are disagreeing with is that only a priest in the RC Denomination may forgive us or others (and whatever distinction you are making between "forgive" and 'bind' is entirely unsubstantiated - and irrelevant since you are likely aware all the Apostles are dead).

.

Ladonia · « **Reply #25 on:** Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 10:19:49 »

Quote from: Josiah on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 09:02:06

Quote from: Elvisman on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 01:27:59
Quote from: Josiah on Sat Oct 01, 2011 - 14:31:00

Then we should confess our sins to those who may forgive.... And as you state, that's not just priests.
Got it; so only the 12 to whom Jesus spoke may "bind and loose" Okay, then unless your priest is listed among the 12, then he has no such ability (however such is different than forgiving).

That's my advise to you. IF you do, you won't see the RC denomination so much as even mentioned - for anything, about anything, concerning anything - at any time or in any context. Nor will you see ANYTHING about the necessity of confession our sins to a man ordained as a priest in one specific denomination (yours, I suspect) - or any other. Read the Book.

EVERYBODY should forgive. NOT everybody has the power to bind and loose sine - ONLY those who have valid Apostolic succession like my priest.

1. Then, if you want forgiveness - why go to a priest?

2. The Bible never mentions apostolic succession or your priest. What you stressed is that Jesus promised this ONLY to the 12 Apostles, not to any others. Then, according to you, ONLY the 12 Apostles can bind and loose. They're dead. I think you know that. Your priest is not one of them.

Quote
It's late and I'm going to bed. In the morning, I will provide you with further Scriptural and historic proof of confessing your sins to the Church.

No one here has disagreed with the value of confessing our sins to Christians.
What some are disagreeing with is that only a priest in the RC Denomination may forgive us or others (and whatever distinction you are making between "forgive" and 'bind' is entirely unsubstantiated - and irrelevant since you are likely aware all the Apostles are dead).

.

Did you miss my previous post?

Elvisman · « **Reply #26 on:** Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 12:57:19 »

Quote from: Josiah on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 09:02:06

1. Then, if you want forgiveness - why go to a priest?

Because this is precisely what Jesus prescribed in Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18 and John 20:21-23.You can deny it all day long but you'd STILL be wrong . . .

Quote from: Josiah on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 09:02:06

2. The Bible never mentions apostolic succession or your priest. What you stressed is that Jesus promised this ONLY to the 12 Apostles, not to any others. Then, according to you, ONLY the 12 Apostles can bind and loose. They're dead. I think you know that. Your priest is not one of them.

Josiah - HOW many times do I need to show you Acts 1:15-26?? I don't know if this is an inability to read or if it's simply SPIRITUAL PRIDE on your part. This is the FOURTH time I have had to explain this to you.

Apostolic succession is described here in Acts 1 when the Apostles chose a successor for Judas, fulfilling the prophecy in Psalms, "May another take his office." This prophecy was about APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION.

Quote from: Josiah on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 09:02:06

No one here has disagreed with the value of confessing our sins to Christians.
What some are disagreeing with is that only a priest in the RC Denomination may forgive us or others (and whatever distinction you are making between "forgive" and 'bind' is entirely unsubstantiated - and irrelevant since you are likely aware all the Apostles are dead).

And I have REPEATEDLY tried to educate you about what a "denomination" is. The Catholic Again, the FOURTH time: The Catholic Church is the stump from which ALL Protestant sects splintered from. I am beginning to wonder seriously if you can even read, friend.

Elvisman · « **Reply #27 on:** Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 13:08:29 »

Quote from: Josiah on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 09:02:06

No one here has disagreed with the value of confessing our sins to Christians.
What some are disagreeing with is that only a priest in the RC Denomination may forgive us or others (and whatever distinction you are making between "forgive" and 'bind' is entirely unsubstantiated - and irrelevant since you are likely aware all the Apostles are dead).

I have addressed Apostolic Succession repeatedly, to no avail with you. I will now give you more AMPLE proof of having to go to a priest to confess your sins - FROM THE BIBLE AND the writings of the Early Church:

Three times in the Gospels (Matt. 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23), we read where Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins or to hold them bound. This is not a something that Jesus took lightly. In John 20:21-23, Jesus (who is God) breathes on the Apostles as he is giving them this power:
(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

The fact that Jesus breathed on the Apostles when entrusted them with this ministry is highly significant because he doesn’t do this anywhere else in the New Testament. In fact, there are only two times in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man:
The first is when he breathed life into Adam. The second is here in John’s Gospel when he is giving them the power to forgive or retain sins.

Many Protestants will have you believe that Jesus was merely telling them that they now had the power to recognize sins – but that is NOT what he said (Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained). The Greek word used here for the word “forgive

Josiah · « **Reply #28 on:** Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 15:59:41 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 12:57:19

Quote from: Josiah on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 09:02:06
1. Then, if you want forgiveness - why go to a priest?
Because this is precisely what Jesus prescribed in Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18 and John 20:21-23.You can deny it all day long but you'd STILL be wrong . . .

That's right, Jesus never once said we are to only confess our sins to a priest.

Do you delete the petition Jesus taught us to pray, ".... as WE forgive those that sin....?" If not, are you a priest? Why would Jesus tell us all to forgive others if we are only to confess to a priest? Or are we ALL priests?

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Quote from: Josiah on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 09:02:06
2. The Bible never mentions apostolic succession or your priest. What you stressed is that Jesus promised this ONLY to the 12 Apostles, not to any others. Then, according to you, ONLY the 12 Apostles can bind and loose. They're dead. I think you know that. Your priest is not one of them.
Josiah - HOW many times do I need to show you Acts 1:15-26??

ONCE, an Apostle was replaced (that we know of).... Not Paul, not Peter, not James- all of whom died within the NT record. But, when Judas was replaced, does it say ANYTHING about special powers or rights or previleges or authorizations that belongs ONLY to the 12 now being his? Nope.

When did the Apostles replace any of the number with your priest?

Where did Jesus say that the ONLY ones that can forgive (or "bind/loose" HOWEVER that's different - you won't say) are "successors" of the Apostles? In fact, where did Jesus even once say the word, in any context, about anything?

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Apostolic succession is described here in Acts 1 when the Apostles chose a successor for Judas, fulfilling the prophecy in Psalms, "May another take his office."

Nope. It's about the replacement of ONE PERSON - just one (did you notice, Paul wasn't replaced, PETER wasn't replaced, James wasn't replaced), the Pslam is about ONE person - not millions of them. The Psalm says NOTHING about unmitigated power or authority or docilic submission as unto God, it say ONE will be replaced. IF Judas had special 'powers' then there's NOTHING that says Matthias grained these.

You are good about referencing Scripture, but perhaps the reason why you don't quote them is that they don't say what you seem to suggest they say. I think perhaps you notice what's there, you seem seem to not notice what's NOT there - your whole point, the very thing you are referencing the Scripture about. It's not there. Your claims are baseless - as I think is obvious if we actually READ the references you give rather than you imputation of all kinds of entirely foreign thought NOWHERE stated in the verse.

Quote from: Josiah

No one here has disagreed with the value of confessing our sins to Christians.
What some are disagreeing with is that only a priest in the RC Denomination may forgive us or others (and whatever distinction you are making between "forgive" and 'bind' is entirely unsubstantiated - and irrelevant since you are likely aware all the Apostles are dead).

.

Ladonia · « **Reply #29 on:** Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 16:19:53 »

Quote from: Josiah on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 15:59:41

Quote from: Elvisman on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 12:57:19
Quote from: Josiah on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 09:02:06
1. Then, if you want forgiveness - why go to a priest?
Because this is precisely what Jesus prescribed in Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18 and John 20:21-23.You can deny it all day long but you'd STILL be wrong . . .

That's right, Jesus never once said we are to only confess our sins to a priest.

Do you delete the petition Jesus taught us to pray, ".... as WE forgive those that sin....?" If not, are you a priest? Why would Jesus tell us all to forgive others if we are only to confess to a priest? Or are we ALL priests?

Quote
Quote from: Josiah on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 09:02:06
2. The Bible never mentions apostolic succession or your priest. What you stressed is that Jesus promised this ONLY to the 12 Apostles, not to any others. Then, according to you, ONLY the 12 Apostles can bind and loose. They're dead. I think you know that. Your priest is not one of them.
Josiah - HOW many times do I need to show you Acts 1:15-26??

ONCE, an Apostle was replaced (that we know of).... Not Paul, not Peter, not James- all of whom died within the NT record. But, when Judas was replaced, does it say ANYTHING about special powers or rights or previleges or authorizations that belongs ONLY to the 12 now being his? Nope.

When did the Apostles replace any of the number with your priest?

Where did Jesus say that the ONLY ones that can forgive (or "bind/loose" HOWEVER that's different - you won't say) are "successors" of the Apostles? In fact, where did Jesus even once say the word, in any context, about anything?

Quote
Apostolic succession is described here in Acts 1 when the Apostles chose a successor for Judas, fulfilling the prophecy in Psalms, "May another take his office."

Nope. It's about the replacement of ONE PERSON - just one (did you notice, Paul wasn't replaced, PETER wasn't replaced, James wasn't replaced), the Pslam is about ONE person - not millions of them. The Psalm says NOTHING about unmitigated power or authority or docilic submission as unto God, it say ONE will be replaced. IF Judas had special 'powers' then there's NOTHING that says Matthias grained these.

You are good about referencing Scripture, but perhaps the reason why you don't quote them is that they don't say what you seem to suggest they say. I think perhaps you notice what's there, you seem seem to not notice what's NOT there - your whole point, the very thing you are referencing the Scripture about. It's not there. Your claims are baseless - as I think is obvious if we actually READ the references you give rather than you imputation of all kinds of entirely foreign thought NOWHERE stated in the verse.

Quote from: Josiah

No one here has disagreed with the value of confessing our sins to Christians.
What some are disagreeing with is that only a priest in the RC Denomination may forgive us or others (and whatever distinction you are making between "forgive" and 'bind' is entirely unsubstantiated - and irrelevant since you are likely aware all the Apostles are dead).

.

Common sense tells us that Christ wanted Christianity to flouish, to go on into the future. He was going to die and He needed help for the faith to continue. His apostles were going to die, so for the faith to go on, to be continued to be preached throughout the world, successors to them would be needed.

So, in the Church's that were established in different places at the time (Corinth) for example, weren't Deacons and Presbyters selected, weren't they "prayed" over, or "ordained" so to speak, so that they could then minister to the faithful? Isn't this all in the Scriptures?

And when this happened, don't you think that Paul might have turned around and given them the power that was given to him by Jesus Christ himself? We know he (Paul) had this "power" because the Scriptures tell us, and he could do what he wanted with it. He did. Sure, there were only 12 Apostles, but the teaching of the faith did not stop with them.

Josiah · « **Reply #30 on:** Mon Oct 03, 2011 - 09:35:11 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 13:08:29

Quote from: Josiah on Sun Oct 02, 2011 - 09:02:06

No one here has disagreed with the value of confessing our sins to Christians.
What some are disagreeing with is that only a priest in the RC Denomination may forgive us or others (and whatever distinction you are making between "forgive" and 'bind' is entirely unsubstantiated - and irrelevant since you are likely aware all the Apostles are dead).

Three times in the Gospels (Matt. 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23), we read where Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins or to hold them bound.

It seems everything in Catholicism boils down to P.O.W.E.R. - the unmitigated, unaccountable POWER that the RCC itself alone claims for the RCC itself alone. Read Matthew 20:20-28?

You need to decided: Can only the 12 Apostles forgive OR can Christians (including you) forgive? IF you are right and Jesus gave this ability ONLY to the 12 - as you keep stressing - then NO ONE today may forgive (and again, why do you pray as Jesus told you to pray, ".... as WE forgive those.....?"

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This is not a something that Jesus took lightly. In John 20:21-23, Jesus (who is God) breathes on the Apostles as he is giving them this POWER: (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Okay. IF Jesus gave this ability to forgive ONLY to the 12 - then He gave it ONLY to the 12. They're all dead. Your priest isn't one of them. You aren't one of them. Why does your priest forgive? Why do you pray, "..... as WE forgive those.....?" Why are we told - over and over - to be forgiving if we aren't allowed to (or to use your prespective, lacking the POWER)?

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The Greek word used here for the word “forgive

Elvisman · « **Reply #31 on:** Mon Oct 03, 2011 - 09:41:23 »

Quote from: Josiah on Mon Oct 03, 2011 - 09:35:11

No one here has disagreed with the value of confessing our sins to Christians.
What some are disagreeing with is that only a priest in the RC Denomination may forgive us or others (and whatever distinction you are making between "forgive" and 'bind' is entirely unsubstantiated - and irrelevant since you are likely aware all the Apostles are dead).

It seems everything in Catholicism boils down to P.O.W.E.R. - the unmitigated, unaccountable POWER that the RCC itself alone claims for the RCC itself alone. Read Matthew 20:20-28?

You need to decided: Can only the 12 Apostles forgive OR can Christians (including you) forgive? IF you are right and Jesus gave this ability ONLY to the 12 - as you keep stressing - then NO ONE today may forgive (and again, why do you pray as Jesus told you to pray, ".... as WE forgive those.....?"

Okay. IF Jesus gave this ability to forgive ONLY to the 12 - then He gave it ONLY to the 12. They're all dead. Your priest isn't one of them. You aren't one of them. Why does your priest forgive? Why do you pray, "..... as WE forgive those.....?" Why are we told - over and over - to be forgiving if we aren't allowed to (or to use your prespective, lacking the POWER)?

... exact same word as in the Lord's Prayer. So, since you are not one of the 12, why do you pray as Jesus instructed you, ".... as WE forgive....." since you insist we don't have the P.O.W.E.R. ?

" Does it refer the the 12 Apostles? The RC Denomination? Christians?

Do you pray as Jesus instructed you to, namely, ".... as WE forgive.....?"
Is Paul teaching that you and I should not forgive, should not be reconciling, rather only the 12 Apostles are to pursue that (they're all dead, you know)?

You just don't get it - or refuse to.

In Matt 16:18-19, 18:17-18 and John 20:21-23, Jesus gave the Apostles (Church leaders) the power to FORGIVE sins. That's why he said, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you

Wycliffes_Shillelagh · « **Reply #32 on:** Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 21:30:52 »

Well, the bible word translated "confess" actually means "to say the same." So I think it's talking about agreement, not blurting out my faults to strangers (or brothers).

On the other hand, telling ones sins to someone else provides a kind of catharsis, so I don't object to the practice at all.

Jarrod

HRoberson · « **Reply #33 on:** Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 22:08:38 »

In re: OP...

I wasn't aware I objected to confessing sins to a priest - or anyone else for that matter.

Now, I'm not sure I agree that the priest - simply because he is a cleric - can do anything about those sins, at least anything more than any other Christian might be able to do through intercession.

Confession is a good thing, but it doesn't need a priest for it to be [sacramentally, so to speak] effective.

Elvisman · « **Reply #34 on:** Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 22:35:13 »

Quote from: HRoberson on Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 22:08:38

In re: OP...

I wasn't aware I objected to confessing sins to a priest - or anyone else for that matter.

Now, I'm not sure I agree that the priest - simply because he is a cleric - can do anything about those sins, at least anything more than any other Christian might be able to do through intercession.

Confession is a good thing, but it doesn't need a priest for it to be [sacramentally, so to speak] effective.

Thank you. That was an honest answer. If you don't object, then the question wasn't aimed at you. I have had many conversations with people who believe that confessing to am priest is not only unnecessary - but wrong.

I would challenge your position, however, because the ministry of priestly Reconciliation is both Biblical (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:1815, John 20:21-23, 2 Cor. 2:10, 2 Cor. 5:18-20) was practiced by the Early Church from the very beginning.

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Author Topic: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest? (Read 14304 times)

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