Author Topic: Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest? (Read 14304 times)

HRoberson · « **Reply #35 on:** Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 22:42:21 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 22:35:13

Quote from: HRoberson on Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 22:08:38
In re: OP...

I wasn't aware I objected to confessing sins to a priest - or anyone else for that matter.

Now, I'm not sure I agree that the priest - simply because he is a cleric - can do anything about those sins, at least anything more than any other Christian might be able to do through intercession.

Confession is a good thing, but it doesn't need a priest for it to be [sacramentally, so to speak] effective.
Thank you. That was an honest answer. If you don't object, then the question wasn't aimed at you. I have had many conversations with people who believe that confessing to am priest is not only unnecessary - but wrong.

I would challenge your position, however, because the ministry of priestly Reconciliation is both Biblical (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:1815, John 20:21-23, 2 Cor. 2:10, 2 Cor. 5:18-20) was practiced by the Early Church from the very beginning.

I think you'd be hard pressed to demonstrate priests in the first church houses. I agree that an ecclesial hierarchy began very early, but a priest as such didn't exist.

We're going to have to disagree on the Peter-the-first-Pope thing, but that isn't all that important here. We have passages that tell us to "confess our sins one to another." There is no hint in those contexts that this confession is limited to having a special cleric present.

As a low-church (extremely low-church) guy, I am not going to agree with you that clerics have any special sacramental authority. However, I have no problem agreeing that confessing to other believers is a God-ordained thing to do.

Sinead · « **Reply #36 on:** Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 23:47:17 »

There is no such thing as a protestant. It is not found anywhere in Scripture. God does not recognize man-made denominations. You are either a born-again follower of Christ or you are not.

Elvisman · « **Reply #37 on:** Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 23:53:40 »

Quote from: Sinead on Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 23:47:17

No such thing as a protestant. You are either a Christ-follower or not.

Not true at all. Many Protestans proudly wear that moniker and others are offended by it. Those who protested against and left the Catholic Church in the 16th century were called Protestants for that very reason.

Try as you might, you simply cannot change history.

Sinead · « **Reply #38 on:** Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 23:56:31 »

lol I am not trying to change history. As you said, the word protestant was a name given by man, not by God. It is a man-made word and you will not find it in Scripture.

Jesus didn't say "follow me, and become a protestant"

I have never belonged to the catholic church, so how can I be a protestant?

The answer is I am simply a follower of Jesus Christ, as were his disciples and those who came to Him while he was on the earth.

Elvisman · « **Reply #39 on:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 00:04:38 »

Quote from: HRoberson on Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 22:42:21

We're going to have to disagree on the Peter-the-first-Pope thing, but that isn't all that important here. We have passages that tell us to "confess our sins one to another." There is no hint in those contexts that this confession is limited to having a special cleric present.

As a low-church (extremely low-church) guy, I am not going to agree with you that clerics have any special sacramental authority. However, I have no problem agreeing that confessing to other believers is a God-ordained thing to do.

Then I suggest you read not only the writings of the Early Church but the Epistle of Jude as well, which deals with the ministerial priesthood and those who tried to usurp it's authority. In the letter, he even refers to the Rebellion of Korah in the OT and the consequences for what they did.

Catholica · « **Reply #40 on:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 06:12:46 »

Quote from: Sinead on Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 23:56:31

lol I am not trying to change history. As you said, the word protestant was a name given by man, not by God. It is a man-made word and you will not find it in Scripture.

Jesus didn't say "follow me, and become a protestant"

I have never belonged to the catholic church, so how can I be a protestant?

The answer is I am simply a follower of Jesus Christ, as were his disciples and those who came to Him while he was on the earth.

If you are hooked in to the theology of any of the Protestant revolters, then although you may not be protesting anything, you have ended up in what could be considered a Protestant boat.

It is truly awesome that you want to follow Jesus. How do you know that what your church is teaching is what Jesus, the apostles and the Church that Jesus founded always taught?

Elvisman · « **Reply #41 on:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 09:19:15 »

Quote from: Sinead on Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 23:56:31

lol I am not trying to change history. As you said, the word protestant was a name given by man, not by God. It is a man-made word and you will not find it in Scripture.

Jesus didn't say "follow me, and become a protestant"

I have never belonged to the catholic church, so how can I be a protestant?

The answer is I am simply a follower of Jesus Christ, as were his disciples and those who came to Him while he was on the earth.

Hmmm, that's interesting. Apparently, you don't know your history. Let me help - and you can look this up for yourself if you don't believe me.

St. Ignatius was Bishop of Antioch in the 1st century - yes, the SAME 1st century in which Jesus and the Apostles walked the earth. The SAME Antioch where Cbelievers were first called "Christians". Tradition states that Ignatius was the child that Jesus held in his arms in Matt. 18:2-5 when he said, "Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." He is also said to have been a student of the Apostle John.

Now, Ignatius was martyred in Rome at the beginning of the 2nd century. On the way to his death, he wrote seven letters to seven Church communities. In his Letter to the Smyrnaeans, he wrote the following about the Church:

"Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Ummmm . . . I don't know about you - but it sound to me like he is describing a Catholic Mass, Church hierarchy and the Catholic Church . . .

PS - Do you consider yourself Christian?

Josiah · « **Reply #42 on:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 09:37:51 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Mon Oct 03, 2011 - 09:41:23

Quote from: Josiah on Mon Oct 03, 2011 - 09:35:11

No one here has disagreed with the value of confessing our sins to Christians.
What some are disagreeing with is that only a priest in the RC Denomination may forgive us or others (and whatever distinction you are making between "forgive" and 'bind' is entirely unsubstantiated - and irrelevant since you are likely aware all the Apostles are dead).

It seems everything in Catholicism boils down to P.O.W.E.R. - the unmitigated, unaccountable POWER that the RCC itself alone claims for the RCC itself alone. Read Matthew 20:20-28?

You need to decided: Can only the 12 Apostles forgive OR can Christians (including you) forgive? IF you are right and Jesus gave this ability ONLY to the 12 - as you keep stressing - then NO ONE today may forgive (and again, why do you pray as Jesus told you to pray, ".... as WE forgive those.....?"

Okay. IF Jesus gave this ability to forgive ONLY to the 12 - then He gave it ONLY to the 12. They're all dead. Your priest isn't one of them. You aren't one of them. Why does your priest forgive? Why do you pray, "..... as WE forgive those.....?" Why are we told - over and over - to be forgiving if we aren't allowed to (or to use your prespective, lacking the POWER)?

... exact same word as in the Lord's Prayer. So, since you are not one of the 12, why do you pray as Jesus instructed you, ".... as WE forgive....." since you insist we don't have the P.O.W.E.R. ?

" Does it refer the the 12 Apostles? The RC Denomination? Christians?

Do you pray as Jesus instructed you to, namely, ".... as WE forgive.....?"
Is Paul teaching that you and I should not forgive, should not be reconciling, rather only the 12 Apostles are to pursue that (they're all dead, you know)?

In Matt 16:18-19, 18:17-18 and John 20:21-23, Jesus gave the Apostles the power to FORGIVE sins. That's why he said, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you

Elvisman · « **Reply #43 on:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 11:42:05 »

Quote from: Josiah on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 09:37:51

Jesus never mentioned POWER. That's an RC Denomination obsession. Read Matthew 20:20-28.

IF Jesus gave "POWER" to only the Apostles to forgive sins, they He didn't give it to your priest (unless he is one of the 12) or to Paul (who wasn't in the room).

And all His preaching and commands about forgiveness were all wrong, since according to you, only 12 men could forgive (and they'd been dead for over 1900 years).

Josiah - the only reason I keep repeating the same answer to you time and again is not really for your benefit. It is for those people who are reading this thread who may not know the truth. I am convinced that nobody on this planet could be as clueless as you appear to be and I know that you probably aren't - at least I HOPE so.

I think that you believe that if you repeat the same inane lines over and over - SOMEbody will listen. I will repeat what I have told you ad nauseam - not for your sake, but for their sake:

Catholic Bishops have valid Apostolic Succession spoken of in Acts 1, when Matthias took Judas' office (episkopoi). Apostolic Succession is SCRIPTURAL and TRADITIONAL, as we find in the Writings of the Early Church Fathers like Ignatius of Antioch.

Therefore, my priest, who was ordained by a Bishop with valid Apostolic Succession has the charisms of the Apostles conferred upon him, such as hearing confessions and forgiving sins in Jesus' name.

I realize this won't sink in with you but others may read and absorb it in the midst of your lies and acusations . . .

Elvisman · « **Reply #44 on:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 11:50:48 »

Quote from: Josiah on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 09:37:51

Jesus never mentioned POWER. That's an RC Denomination obsession. Read Matthew 20:20-28.

Ummmm . . . Matt. 20:20-28 has NOTHING to do with this conversation because Jesus isn't singling out any individual Apostle here. He is telling them that they should not seek to be greater than one another.

As for Jesus never mentioning POWER - you have once again shown your ignorance of the Scriptures:

Matt. 28:18-20
Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All POWER in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.

Josiah · « **Reply #45 on:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 13:25:41 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 11:42:05

Quote from: Josiah on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 09:37:51

Jesus never mentioned POWER. That's an RC Denomination obsession. Read Matthew 20:20-28.

IF Jesus gave "POWER" to only the Apostles to forgive sins, they He didn't give it to your priest (unless he is one of the 12) or to Paul (who wasn't in the room).

And all His preaching and commands about forgiveness were all wrong, since according to you, only 12 men could forgive (and they'd been dead for over 1900 years).

Catholic Bishops have valid Apostolic Succession spoken of in Acts 1, when Matthias took Judas' office (episkopoi). Apostolic Succession is SCRIPTURAL

1. I again fail to see how your "reply" has anything to do with what you claim to be "replying" to.

2. The RC Denomination claims that IT has "valid Apostolic Succession" ( that it, unmitigated, unaccountable P.O.W.E.R.).

3. Your whole premise is that ONLY the 12 Apostles may forgive sins. And yet, you keep contradicting your premise. Which is it? Only the 12 may forgive or ONLY the RC Denomination may forgive? And where did Jesus say either of those things?

4. No. There is no Scripture that says the 12 ALONE had the POWER to forgive and that somehow, this was re-gifted to the RC Denomination by itself. Nope, it's not there. All that have (or even can) read the Bible know this.

.

Elvisman · « **Reply #46 on:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 13:44:16 »

Quote from: Josiah on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 13:25:41

1. I again fail to see how your "reply" has anything to do with what you claim to be "replying" to.

2. The RC Denomination claims that IT has "valid Apostolic Succession" ( that it, unmitigated, unaccountable P.O.W.E.R.).

3. Your whole premise is that ONLY the 12 Apostles may forgive sins. And yet, you keep contradicting your premise. Which is it? Only the 12 may forgive or ONLY the RC Denomination may forgive? And where did Jesus say either of those things?

4. No. There is no Scripture that says the 12 ALONE had the POWER to forgive and that somehow, this was re-gifted to the RC Denomination by itself. Nope, it's not there. All that have (or even can) read the Bible know this.

Let's see - I've provided Scriptural proof and evidence for the Early Church to back up my claims of Apostolic Succession and the binding and loosing of sins.

You've provided . . . let's see . . . SQUAT.
Angry rants and inane diatribes as usual . . .

Come back to the table when you have some Scriptural or historical support for your rants.

Josiah · « **Reply #47 on:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 15:46:46 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 13:44:16

Quote from: Josiah on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 13:25:41

1. I again fail to see how your "reply" has anything to do with what you claim to be "replying" to.

2. The RC Denomination claims that IT has "valid Apostolic Succession" ( that it, unmitigated, unaccountable P.O.W.E.R.).

3. Your whole premise is that ONLY the 12 Apostles may forgive sins. And yet, you keep contradicting your premise. Which is it? Only the 12 may forgive or ONLY the RC Denomination may forgive? And where did Jesus say either of those things?

4. No. There is no Scripture that says the 12 ALONE had the POWER to forgive and that somehow, this was re-gifted to the RC Denomination by itself. Nope, it's not there. All that have (or even can) read the Bible know this.

Let's see - I've provided Scriptural proof to back up my claims of Apostolic Succession and the binding and loosing of sins.

Not yet....

Your point has been that there were TWELVE men who may forgive sins (and of course, we all know all 12 are dead, have been for some time now).

You've given NO Scripture that says that actually, the RC Denomination was given this POWER (or that it took it from the 12, re-gifting it to itself). You've given NOTHING that says any Apostle re-gifted it to anyone or anything - much less specifically and solely to the RC Denomination or to your priest. Nothing so far. Do you have something?

.

Elvisman · « **Reply #48 on:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 16:30:22 »

Quote from: Josiah on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 15:46:46

Your point has been that there were TWELVE men who may forgive sins (and of course, we all know all 12 are dead, have been for some time now).

You've given NO Scripture that says that actually, the RC Denomination was given this POWER (or that it took it from the 12, re-gifting it to itself). You've given NOTHING that says any Apostle re-gifted it to anyone or anything - much less specifically and solely to the RC Denomination or to your priest. Nothing so far. Do you have something?

Absolutely.

Regarding the replacement for Judas, the following CLEARLY illustrates Apostolic Succession. If one is replacing another in his office, he is taking with him all of the authority and power bestowed by Christ. In John 20, Jesus told the apostles, "As the Father has sent me – so I send you.

Ladonia · « **Reply #49 on:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 16:36:44 »

Quote from: Josiah on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 15:46:46

Quote from: Elvisman on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 13:44:16
Quote from: Josiah on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 13:25:41

1. I again fail to see how your "reply" has anything to do with what you claim to be "replying" to.

2. The RC Denomination claims that IT has "valid Apostolic Succession" ( that it, unmitigated, unaccountable P.O.W.E.R.).

3. Your whole premise is that ONLY the 12 Apostles may forgive sins. And yet, you keep contradicting your premise. Which is it? Only the 12 may forgive or ONLY the RC Denomination may forgive? And where did Jesus say either of those things?

4. No. There is no Scripture that says the 12 ALONE had the POWER to forgive and that somehow, this was re-gifted to the RC Denomination by itself. Nope, it's not there. All that have (or even can) read the Bible know this.

Let's see - I've provided Scriptural proof to back up my claims of Apostolic Succession and the binding and loosing of sins.

Not yet....

Your point has been that there were TWELVE men who may forgive sins (and of course, we all know all 12 are dead, have been for some time now).

You've given NO Scripture that says that actually, the RC Denomination was given this POWER (or that it took it from the 12, re-gifting it to itself). You've given NOTHING that says any Apostle re-gifted it to anyone or anything - much less specifically and solely to the RC Denomination or to your priest. Nothing so far. Do you have something?

.

Ok, how about when the apostles went around "laying hands" and "praying"on people and making them Deacons and Presbyters.? In other words, ordaining them to be leaders and servants of the Church. The word "priest" I believe comes from the word presbyters. Now, since they had that power, they did indeed do as you say, they "re-gifted" the gift they received from Jesus Christ. I don't see any reason not to believe that this happened. You either believe or you don't, simple as that.

Josiah · « **Reply #50 on:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 16:51:25 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 16:30:22

Quote from: Josiah on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 15:46:46

Your point has been that there were TWELVE men who may forgive sins (and of course, we all know all 12 are dead, have been for some time now).

You've given NO Scripture that says that actually, the RC Denomination was given this POWER (or that it took it from the 12, re-gifting it to itself). You've given NOTHING that says any Apostle re-gifted it to anyone or anything - much less specifically and solely to the RC Denomination or to your priest. Nothing so far. Do you have something?

Absolutely.

.

Did you read my post?

Quote

Regarding the replacement for Judas, the following CLEARLY illustrates Apostolic Succession. If one is replacing another in his office, he is taking with him all of the authority and power bestowed by Christ.

What power? (funny how EVERYTHING in Catholicism is about power - the power it itself alone claims that it itself has).

No. We have ONE example (never repeated - at least as indicated by Scripture, not Peter, not Paul, not James - all of whom died within the time recorded in the NT) of the office of one Apostle being replaced. NOTHING about any power. NOTHING about the RC Denomination.

Quote

In John 20, Jesus told the apostles, "As the Father has sent me – so I send you.

Elvisman · « **Reply #51 on:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 17:02:22 »

Quote from: Josiah on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 16:51:25

What power? (funny how EVERYTHING in Catholicism is about power - the power it itself alone claims that it itself has).

No. We have ONE example (never repeated - at least as indicated by Scripture, not Peter, not Paul, not James - all of whom died within the time recorded in the NT) of the office of one Apostle being replaced. NOTHING about any power. NOTHING about the RC Denomination.

REALLY?
Can you tell me how Paul died?
How did Peter die?
Can you tell me WHEN they died?
I didn't think so . . .

Quote from: Josiah on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 16:51:25

Where did He say, "So I'm sending The RC Denomination - in perpetuity, with unmitigated, unaccountable POWER over all Christians?"

Where is the quote that says, "This POWER to forgive since I give in perpetuity of the RC Denomination?" Or "to all priests properly ordained exclusively in the RC Denomination?"

Right here:
John 16:12-15

Sinead · « **Reply #52 on:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 17:55:22 »

Elvisman, you need to be more like Jesus and learn to have a humble attitude.
You cannot pass off your 'opinions' as truth. You are not going to convince anyone to do things the way you think they should be done.

Josiah · « **Reply #53 on:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 17:56:14 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 17:02:22

Quote from: Josiah on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 16:51:25
What power? (funny how EVERYTHING in Catholicism is about power - the power it itself alone claims that it itself has).

No. We have ONE example (never repeated - at least as indicated by Scripture, not Peter, not Paul, not James - all of whom died within the time recorded in the NT) of the office of one Apostle being replaced. NOTHING about any power. NOTHING about the RC Denomination.

REALLY?
Can you tell me how Paul died?
How did Peter die?
Can you tell me WHEN they died?

Can you tell me what in the world that has to do with ANYTHING I've posted?

Can you show me in Scripture that these apostles were "replaced?" (or are Peter and James and Paul SO much lesser than Judas and so didn't need to be?)? Can you explain how "replaced" = "UNMITIGATED, unaccountable POWER to do (never said) are to be perpetually re-gifted by the RC Denomination to itself?" And that Matthias is the RC denomination? Or your priest?

Quote

Quote from: Josiah on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 16:51:25

Where did He say, "So I'm sending The RC Denomination - in perpetuity, with unmitigated, unaccountable POWER over all Christians?"

Where is the quote that says, "This POWER to forgive since I give in perpetuity of the RC Denomination?" Or "to all priests properly ordained exclusively in the RC Denomination?"

Right here:
John 16:12-15

You either gave the wrong reference or you are "reading" invisible words.

.

Elvisman · « **Reply #54 on:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 21:50:37 »

Quote from: Sinead on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 17:55:22

Elvisman, you need to be more like Jesus and learn to have a humble attitude.
You cannot pass off your 'opinions' as truth. You are not going to convince anyone to do things the way you think they should be done.

And I will restate my position:
I am not here for you or Josiah or anybody else who spreads lies about the Church and tries to pass them off as the truth. I am here to correct you in front of everybody so that the under-catechized won' fall prey to your deceit.

I have supplied Scripture verse upon Scripture verse along with quotes from the Early Church to support my positions. You and Josiah have mere spouted off opinions, arrogance and lunacy.

I don't have much patience for liars who delight in misleading others, so if I sound a little curt with both of you . . . Deal with it.

HRoberson · « **Reply #55 on:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 23:16:38 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 00:04:38

Quote from: HRoberson on Wed Oct 12, 2011 - 22:42:21
We're going to have to disagree on the Peter-the-first-Pope thing, but that isn't all that important here. We have passages that tell us to "confess our sins one to another." There is no hint in those contexts that this confession is limited to having a special cleric present.

As a low-church (extremely low-church) guy, I am not going to agree with you that clerics have any special sacramental authority. However, I have no problem agreeing that confessing to other believers is a God-ordained thing to do.

Then I suggest you read not only the writings of the Early Church but the Epistle of Jude as well, which deals with the ministerial priesthood and those who tried to usurp it's authority. In the letter, he even refers to the Rebellion of Korah in the OT and the consequences for what they did.

I don't really want to make this a drawn out debate. Let's just say I have read the writings of the early church and Jude. What I don't see is a priest being required in the churches that Titus and Timothy were to set up. What I do see is elders required and then the development of a priest class over time (through the writings of the early church). Which means (to me) that the churches of Tim and Titus didn't need priests to hear confession (assuming those churches confessed).

Sinead · « **Reply #56 on:** Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 23:45:15 »

Nobody is spreading any lies, i think you are paranoid.

I haven't said anything about the catholic church.

I really hope that you contend for your faith in Jesus Christ as much as you contend for the catholic church.

I find your manner very offensive and unchristian.

The only lunacy i see here is your own.

Josiah · « **Reply #57 on:** Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:51:52 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 21:50:37

Quote from: Sinead on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 17:55:22
Elvisman, you need to be more like Jesus and learn to have a humble attitude.
You cannot pass off your 'opinions' as truth. You are not going to convince anyone to do things the way you think they should be done.

I have supplied Scripture verse upon Scripture verse to support my positions.

Not yet....

You have revealed from Scripture that the CLAIM of the RC Denomination alone for itself alone is Scripturally baseless. And irrelevant to the issue of the thread.
You have avoid and evaded every question raised to you and every point made (kind of rude, IMO). You seem to have the view that if you say it - it's just automatically true and if others don't jump on board, they are automatically wrong. It leaves no room for truth or discussion. This is a DISCUSSION forum. It's not a forum for all to docilicly submit to whatever you say, exempting you from the issue of truth.

.

Elvisman · « **Reply #58 on:** Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:00:10 »

Quote from: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:51:52

Not yet....

You have revealed from Scripture that the CLAIM of the RC Denomination alone for itself alone is Scripturally baseless. And irrelevant to the issue of the thread.
You have avoid and evaded every question raised to you and every point made (kind of rude, IMO). You seem to have the view that if you say it - it's just automatically true and if others don't jump on board, they are automatically wrong. It leaves no room for truth or discussion. This is a DISCUSSION forum. It's not a forum for all to docilicly submit to whatever you say, exempting you from the issue of truth.

Nope - I've submitted all of the verses and Early Chuirch quotes that support Apostolic Succession.

You see, Josiah - you can't do that because your Christian roots only go back about 500 years or so.
Ours go bact the full 2000 . . .

Josiah · « **Reply #59 on:** Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:10:20 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:00:10

Quote from: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:51:52

Not yet....

You have revealed from Scripture that the CLAIM of the RC Denomination alone for itself alone is Scripturally baseless. And irrelevant to the issue of the thread.
You have avoid and evaded every question raised to you and every point made (kind of rude, IMO). You seem to have the view that if you say it - it's just automatically true and if others don't jump on board, they are automatically wrong. It leaves no room for truth or discussion. This is a DISCUSSION forum. It's not a forum for all to docilicly submit to whatever you say, exempting you from the issue of truth.

Nope - I've submitted all of the verses and Early Chuirch quotes that support Apostolic Succession.

Perhaps, but that's not a point ANYONE made or ANYONE requested.

What you've NOT done is submit ANYTHING from Scripture that supports Apostolic Succession. Obviously. This has been made clear repeatedly, but you've avoided and evaded that each time.

Nor to support the claim of the RC Denomination alone that the RC Denomination alone may forgive sins.

Just because YOUR interpretation of invisible words seems to YOU to suggest the RC Denomination might be correct in the claims that it itself alone makes for it itself alone does NOT mean that ergo SCRIPTURE teaches that - a point you seem to not be aware of. We all realize that the RC Denomination exempts itself exclusively from the issue of truth and that it demands that Catholics do the same, accepting WHATEVER it itself claims "with quiet docility" as "unto God" and "as God speaking" - and it's predictable that you are obeying that - but just because you exempt it doesn't mean everyone else must, can you understand that? IF you claim something ("Scripture teaches it") then you need to substantiate the statement as TRUE, not just MADE (do you know the difference?). Your persistent desire to show how Scripture does NOT support your view isn't helping you....

Note: Since this thread is ENTIRELY about the RC Denomination's claim that it itself alone may forgive sins, and since it existed since it's beginning in the CATHOLIC forum, I have no idea why it was moved to Protestantism. There is no Protestant Denomination that claims that it alone may forgive or that the properly ordained clergy of itself alone may do so.

.

Elvisman · « **Reply #60 on:** Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:11:00 »

Quote from: HRoberson on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 23:16:38

I don't really want to make this a drawn out debate. Let's just say I have read the writings of the early church and Jude. What I don't see is a priest being required in the churches that Titus and Timothy were to set up. What I do see is elders required and then the development of a priest class over time (through the writings of the early church). Which means (to me) that the churches of Tim and Titus didn't need priests to hear confession (assuming those churches confessed).

Fair enough.

What, then, do you do with Paul's own words on the subject?
2 Cor. 5:18-20
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Josiah · « **Reply #61 on:** Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:19:50 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:11:00

What, then, do you do with Paul's own words on the subject?
2 Cor. 5:18-20
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Elvisman · « **Reply #62 on:** Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:21:39 »

Quote from: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:10:20

Perhaps, but that's not a point ANYONE made or ANYONE requested.

What you've NOT done is submit ANYTHING from Scripture that supports Apostolic Succession. Obviously. This has been made clear repeatedly, but you've avoided and evaded that each time.

Nor to support the claim of the RC Denomination alone that the RC Denomination alone may forgive sins.

Just because YOUR interpretation of invisible words seems to YOU to suggest the RC Denomination might be correct in the claims that it itself alone makes for it itself alone does NOT mean that ergo SCRIPTURE teaches that - a point you seem to not be aware of. We all realize that the RC Denomination exempts itself exclusively from the issue of truth and that it demands that Catholics do the same, accepting WHATEVER it itself claims "with quiet docility" as "unto God" and "as God speaking" - and it's predictable that you are obeying that - but just because you exempt it doesn't mean everyone else must, can you understand that? IF you claim something ("Scripture teaches it") then you need to substantiate the statement as TRUE, not just MADE (do you know the difference?). Your persistent desire to show how Scripture does NOT support your view isn't helping you....

Note: Since this thread is ENTIRELY about the RC Denomination's claim that it itself alone may forgive sins, and since it existed since it's beginning in the CATHOLIC forum, I have no idea why it was moved to Protestantism. There is no Protestant Denomination that claims that it alone may forgive or that the properly ordained clergy of itself alone may do so.

These last comments are proof to everybody who has followed this thread that you simply make things up as you go along.

Firs of all - this thread is NOT about the Catholic Church's claim that it alone can forgive sins. That isn't even a claim of the Catholic Church but another one of your perversions of Catholic Doctrine. You claim that this is "ENTIRELY" what this is about.
The thread is called "Why do Protestants object to Confessing sins to a priest?"
That's it. NOTHING about Catholic exclusivity.

I created this thread and am WELL aware of its intent.

All of that being said, I will now further expose your lies because you say that I have not submitted "ANYTHING" from Scripture that supports Apostolic Succession. That is yet another lie. I submitted Acts 1:15-16, which speaks CLEARLY on the subject of Apostolic Succession. To deny this is to simply bury your head in the sand and hope that it goes away . . .

Josiah · « **Reply #63 on:** Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:27:04 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:21:39

I submitted Acts 1:15-16, which speaks CLEARLY on the subject of Apostolic Succession.

You did. And evaded and avoided EVERY POINT made in response.

It says NOTHING about any power or rights or charms or anything being re-gifted.
JUDAS was replaced, it says NOTHING about anything being re-gifted.
What about James, Peter, Paul - where are the Scriptures about them being "replaced?" About this sole ability to forgive being re-gifted to whomever "replaced" them? Where does this text say ANYTHING about forgiveness, clergy, priests or the RC Denomination? Answer: it doesn't. I think you know that.

Quote

I created this thread and am WELL aware of its intent.

And you placed it in the CATHOLIC forum.
You KEPT it - for 4 pages of posts - in the CATHOLIC forum.
Ergo, you must believe it belongs in the CATHOLIC forum.

.

Elvisman · « **Reply #64 on:** Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:48:33 »

Quote from: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:27:04

Quote from: Elvisman on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:21:39
I submitted Acts 1:15-16, which speaks CLEARLY on the subject of Apostolic Succession.

You did. And evaded and avoided EVERY POINT made in response.

It says NOTHING about any power or rights or charms or anything being re-gifted.
JUDAS was replaced, it says NOTHING about anything being re-gifted.
What about James, Peter, Paul - where are the Scriptures about them being "replaced?" About this sole ability to forgive being re-gifted to whomever "replaced" them? Where does this text say ANYTHING about forgiveness, clergy, priests or the RC Denomination? Answer: it doesn't. I think you know that.

And you placed it in the CATHOLIC forum.
You KEPT it - for 4 pages of posts - in the CATHOLIC forum.
Ergo, you must believe it belongs in the CATHOLIC forum.

I created it in the Catholic Forum. However, I don't have the power to move it back - or DO I.
I'm fairly new to this forum. On other forums, only the Moderators have that privilege . . .

As for Acts 1:15-26 - you siomply have no case. They did not simply replace Judas to make an even dozen, as so many like you who are ignorant of the Scriptures think. In these passages, the Apostles harken back to Psalm 109:8, where it says, "May another take his OFFICE." The Greek word used here is επισκοπην (Episkopae), which means "Bishopric".

The Bishop carries great authority and many responsibilities. As we see in the Writings of Ignatius, the practice from the FIRST century waas to follow the BISHOPS because they were the LEADERS of the communities:
"Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

Sorry, pal - you LOSE . . .

Josiah · « **Reply #65 on:** Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 13:01:30 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:48:33

Quote from: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:27:04
Quote from: Elvisman on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 09:21:39
I submitted Acts 1:15-16, which speaks CLEARLY on the subject of Apostolic Succession.

You did. And evaded and avoided EVERY POINT made in response.

It says NOTHING about any power or rights or charms or anything being re-gifted.
JUDAS was replaced, it says NOTHING about anything being re-gifted.
What about James, Peter, Paul - where are the Scriptures about them being "replaced?" About this sole ability to forgive being re-gifted to whomever "replaced" them? Where does this text say ANYTHING about forgiveness, clergy, priests or the RC Denomination? Answer: it doesn't. I think you know that.

.

As for Acts 1:15-26 - you siomply have no case. They did not simply replace Judas to make an even dozen, as so many like you who are ignorant of the Scriptures think. In these passages, the Apostles harken back to Psalm 109:8, where it says, "May another take his OFFICE." The Greek word used here is επισκοπην (Episkopae), which means "Bishopric".

OFFICE may be that, but there is ZERO evidence that ANY Apostle was a bishop.
Anywhere.

Nor did you show that:
1) ONLY 12 men had the ability to forgive sins...
2) Judas re-gifted this after his death (how DID Judas do that, after his death?)
3) Judas is the RC denomination and/or your priest - or that Matthias is.

Quote

The Bishop carries great authority and many responsibilities.

Where did Jesus or any Apostle say that?

Specifically WHAT "authority" is given exclusively and specifically to "bishops?"

Where does it say this can be re-gifted to a denomination?
Or to your priest?

.

Elvisman · « **Reply #66 on:** Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 15:06:02 »

Quote from: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 13:01:30

OFFICE may be that, but there is ZERO evidence that ANY Apostle was a bishop.
Anywhere.

As I ALREADY showed you - MANY times - the Apostles WERE bishops and I PROVED it with Scripture:
The Greek word used here is επισκοπην (Episkopae), which means "Bishopric".

What more do you need, my hateful friend??

Quote from: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 13:01:30

Nor did you show that:
1) ONLY 12 men had the ability to forgive sins...
2) Judas re-gifted this after his death (how DID Judas do that, after his death?)
3) Judas is the RC denomination and/or your priest - or that Matthias is.

It wasn't for Judas to pass on because he killed himself. His OFFICE was taken by Matthias, whom the Apostles laid hands on and appointed to take Judas' BISHOPRIC επισκοπην (Episkopae),

Maybe it would help if you wore reading glasses . . .

Quote from: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 13:01:30

Where did Jesus or any Apostle say that?

Specifically WHAT "authority" is given exclusively and specifically to "bishops?"

Ummm . . . for starters, lets look at Acts 15 - the Council of Jerusalem. If you remember, they were there to sette a matter that waas spawned by Judaizers. In the Letter of the Apostles in that chapter, they (the Apostles) wrote:
Acts 15:24"Since we have heard that some of our number [who went out] without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind".

You see - the Apostles - the EPISKOPOI (Bishops) had ALL Authority over the Church - just as Jesus promised (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23).

NOW - instead of your angry rants - give me some SCRIPTURAL evidence to counter what I have explained. I'll even take some quotes form the Early Church.
No nonsensical rants, no quotes from your sister, no anti-Catholic myths.
JUST SCRIPTURE and EARLY CHURCH.

CAN you do that?

Josiah · « **Reply #67 on:** Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 16:06:49 »

Quote from: Elvisman on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 15:06:02

Quote from: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 13:01:30
OFFICE may be that, but there is ZERO evidence that ANY Apostle was a bishop.
Anywhere.

As I ALREADY showed you - MANY times - the Apostles WERE bishops and I PROVED it with Scripture:
The Greek word used here is επισκοπην (Episkopae), which means "Bishopric".

I don't accept that the word "Apostle" and "Bishop" are identical....

Or that simply because the word for "office" is the same, ergo Apostles and Bishops are the same.

Quote

Quote from: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 13:01:30

Nor did you show that:

1) ONLY 12 men had the ability to forgive sins...
2) Judas re-gifted this after his death (how DID Judas do that, after his death?)
3) Judas is the RC denomination and/or your priest - or that Matthias is.

It wasn't for Judas to pass on because he killed himself.

.... SO, IF (and you still have don't NOTHING to so indicate), Judas AS AN APOSTLE (not Bishop) got some (as yet mysterious) unmitigated POWER to do (as yet untold) things as a gift from Jesus, then where did Jesus say these are re-gifted to the RCC upon his death and then the RCC can re-gift them to whomever it chooses?

Where does it say that Matthias go ANY of the (as yet mysterious) POWERS you claim that ONLY the Apostles (and not Bishops) got from Jesus?

And, pray tell, WHAT IN THE WORLD does that have to do with the RC Denomination today or with your priest?

Quote

Quote from: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 13:01:30

Where did Jesus or any Apostle say that?

Specifically WHAT "authority" is given exclusively and specifically to "bishops?"

Acts 15:24"Since we have heard that some of our number [who went out] without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind".

You see - the Apostles - the EPISKOPOI (Bishops) had ALL Authority over the Church - just as Jesus promised (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23).

Who is the "us?"

Matthew 15:24 says nothing about "just as Jesus promised."

Where does this say ANYTHING WHATSOEVER about only the Apostles having the ability to forgive sins, much less that this has been re-gifted to the RC Denomination?

Quote

NOW - give me some SCRIPTURAL evidence to counter what I have explained.

It's YOUR position, the ball is in YOUR court.

I'm waiting for you to present SOMETHING from Jesus that He authorized ONLY the 12 Apostles to forgive sins, and yet Jesus authorized ONLY priests of the RC Denomination to forgive sins (I'm curious about that blatant contradiction of yours), where Jesus said ANYTHING about ANYONE regifting ANYTHING, where Jesus so much as even mentioned the word "succession" in any context or anything at all, where Scripture says that Apostle = Bishop, and where (pray tell) it says ANYTHING AT ALL about the RC Denomination or the clergy thereof, for anything at all - and specifically that they alone may forgive. When you have something, we can discuss it. The ball is in your court. You are the one insisting that Jesus said and did these things, you have just not yet provided the quotes from Jesus. Or any Apostle. Or any Scripture.

.

Ladonia · « **Reply #68 on:** Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 17:50:23 »

Quote from: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 08:51:52

Quote from: Elvisman on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 21:50:37
Quote from: Sinead on Thu Oct 13, 2011 - 17:55:22
Elvisman, you need to be more like Jesus and learn to have a humble attitude.
You cannot pass off your 'opinions' as truth. You are not going to convince anyone to do things the way you think they should be done.

I have supplied Scripture verse upon Scripture verse to support my positions.

Not yet....

You have revealed from Scripture that the CLAIM of the RC Denomination alone for itself alone is Scripturally baseless. And irrelevant to the issue of the thread.
You have avoid and evaded every question raised to you and every point made (kind of rude, IMO). You seem to have the view that if you say it - it's just automatically true and if others don't jump on board, they are automatically wrong. It leaves no room for truth or discussion. This is a DISCUSSION forum. It's not a forum for all to docilicly submit to whatever you say, exempting you from the issue of truth.

.

Sorry Josiah, but I believe the Orthodox faith tradition also has the sacrament of reconcilliation with priests also forgiving sins in the name of Jesus Christ. And though we are seperated brothers, I think that the Catholic Church recognizes the validity of their Apostolic Succession and their POWER in this matter.

Elvisman · « **Reply #69 on:** Mon Oct 17, 2011 - 12:46:49 »

Quote from: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 13:01:30

I don't accept that the word "Apostle" and "Bishop" are identical....

Or that simply because the word for "office" is the same, ergo Apostles and Bishops are the same.

That’s the beauty of Scripture – it doesn’t depend on YOU for it to be the truth.

The plain fact that I have presented is that Acts 1:20 calls the Apostles BISHOPS because the word used for Judas’ office is επισκοπην (Episkopae), which means "Bishopric".

Your objection to this fact does NOT change the fact that that it is true.
Therefore, unless you can somehow change the meaning of επισκοπην (Episkopae) - you LOSE this argument.

Quote from: Josiah on Fri Oct 14, 2011 - 13:01:30

Nor did you show that:

1) ONLY 12 men had the ability to forgive sins...
2) Judas re-gifted this after his death (how DID Judas do that, after his death?)
3) Judas is the RC denomination and/or your priest - or that Matthias is.

.... SO, IF (and you still have don't NOTHING to so indicate), Judas AS AN APOSTLE (not Bishop) got some (as yet mysterious) unmitigated POWER to do (as yet untold) things as a gift from Jesus, then where did Jesus say these are re-gifted to the RCC upon his death and then the RCC can re-gift them to whomever it chooses?

Where does it say that Matthias go ANY of the (as yet mysterious) POWERS you claim that ONLY the Apostles (and not Bishops) got from Jesus?

And, pray tell, WHAT IN THE WORLD does that have to do with the RC Denomination today or with your priest?

Who is the "us?"

Matthew 15:24 says nothing about "just as Jesus promised."

Where does this say ANYTHING WHATSOEVER about only the Apostles having the ability to forgive sins, much less that this has been re-gifted to the RC Denomination?

It's YOUR position, the ball is in YOUR court.

I'm waiting for you to present SOMETHING from Jesus that He authorized ONLY the 12 Apostles to forgive sins, and yet Jesus authorized ONLY priests of the RC Denomination to forgive sins (I'm curious about that blatant contradiction of yours), where Jesus said ANYTHING about ANYONE regifting ANYTHING, where Jesus so much as even mentioned the word "succession" in any context or anything at all, where Scripture says that Apostle = Bishop, and where (pray tell) it says ANYTHING AT ALL about the RC Denomination or the clergy thereof, for anything at all - and specifically that they alone may forgive. When you have something, we can discuss it. The ball is in your court. You are the one insisting that Jesus said and did these things, you have just not yet provided the quotes from Jesus. Or any Apostle. Or any Scripture.

It cracks me up that you keep using the term, “Re-Gift

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