Author Topic: "denominational baptism"  (Read 13807 times)

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Offline s1n4m1n

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"denominational baptism"
« on: Mon Sep 15, 2008 - 09:57:37 »
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This seems to be a phrase made up just to inculcate confusion amongst less knowledgable Christians.

"Well your baptism is just a denominational baptism because it didn't have the proper authority, object, confession and technique. You need to be subject to the Lord's Church."


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"denominational baptism"
« on: Mon Sep 15, 2008 - 09:57:37 »

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #1 on: Mon Sep 15, 2008 - 10:05:40 »
Some cults do baptize into their denomination, i.e. Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, etc.

Offline stevehut

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #2 on: Mon Sep 15, 2008 - 10:07:44 »
I happen to agree with much of what this man is saying.

According to the Bible, baptism must include:

Belief
Faith
Repentance
Personal decision
Immersion
An expectation of future ongoing commitment

I recently read on the website of the Church of England, that over 80% of the baptisms in their fellowship, are given to non-believers.  Can these possibly be valid baptisms?   ???

Offline stevehut

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #3 on: Mon Sep 15, 2008 - 10:14:57 »
This seems to be a phrase made up just to inculcate confusion amongst less knowledgable Christians.

 ???

If these Christians are "less knowledgeable," why would that be?  Could it be that they got baptized without a good understanding of what they were doing and what it meant?  Could it be that their churches didn't do a very good job of teaching them?

Can't blame this guy (or anyone outside your own church) for that.

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #4 on: Mon Sep 15, 2008 - 10:36:52 »
I think Ken's big irritation is the speakers use of the Catholic Church as an example.

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #4 on: Mon Sep 15, 2008 - 10:36:52 »



Offline DCR

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #5 on: Mon Sep 15, 2008 - 11:23:22 »
Ugh.

"Denominational baptism has the authority of that denomination rather than the authority of the Bible."

"There's no Biblical authority whatsoever for denominational baptism."

"Jesus never authorized denominations.  And so, if Jesus never authorized denominations, then how could He have authorized denominational baptism?  It's not possible, is it?"



Seems to largely be a circular strawman argument built on a platform of presuppositions.  C'mon, dude, do you really think anyone believes that the baptism they practice has the authority of their denomination "rather than" the authority of the Bible?  Of course, other than the reference to Catholicism, it's all too vague to even know what he considers to be a "denomination" and what he doesn't.  I speculate that he probably would label any other group outside of his own exclusive affiliation to be a denomination where his group isn't.  Everything else he says follows from that presupposition.



"Jesus never authorized denominations.  And so, if Jesus never authorized denominations, then how could He have authorized denominational baptism?  It's not possible, is it?"

Well, duh, of course.  ::pondering::  ::shrug::

Offline stevehut

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #6 on: Mon Sep 15, 2008 - 11:30:51 »
I think Ken's big irritation is the speakers use of the Catholic Church as an example.

With a little research into church history, I believe many Protestants would be shocked to learn that they are themselves more Catholic than they realize.

Offline s1n4m1n

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #7 on: Mon Sep 15, 2008 - 11:39:16 »
Well somebody gets what I was driving at.

Offline Charles Sloan

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #8 on: Mon Sep 15, 2008 - 11:47:32 »
I think Ken's big irritation is the speakers use of the Catholic Church as an example.

With a little research into church history, I believe many Protestants would be shocked to learn that they are themselves more Catholic than they realize.

Sounds like a topic I've seen somewhere...

Offline kanham

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #9 on: Mon Sep 15, 2008 - 14:37:25 »
It would be a good place for a real history lesson.

Baptism's power comes from God and more specifically from the name of Jesus who it is done in, not from a denomination or the Bible but why bother when the original intent of the guy is obvious.

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #10 on: Mon Sep 15, 2008 - 21:50:02 »
Baptism, rightly understood, is a response of a repentant believer. It really doesn't matter that one knows all the intricate doctrinal points concerning the practice, only that one intends to live his life for God.

Offline Johnb

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #11 on: Tue Sep 16, 2008 - 06:40:54 »
At the risk of being called a Budist I agree with HR on this one.

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #12 on: Tue Sep 16, 2008 - 08:54:26 »
 ::smile::

ex cathedra

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #13 on: Sat Mar 28, 2009 - 19:04:41 »
I happen to agree with much of what this man is saying.

According to the Bible, baptism must include:

Belief
Faith
Repentance
Personal decision
Immersion
An expectation of future ongoing commitment

I recently read on the website of the Church of England, that over 80% of the baptisms in their fellowship, are given to non-believers.  Can these possibly be valid baptisms?   ???
[/quote

hopeful 90 percent  of our baptims in the confessional lutheran church will be  non believers.
our infants . Because there is only one way to heaven!!! faith in Jesus which God in baptism grants to infants..


ex cathedra

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #14 on: Sat Mar 28, 2009 - 20:45:03 »
Ugh.

"Denominational baptism has the authority of that denomination rather than the authority of the Bible."

"There's no Biblical authority whatsoever for denominational baptism."

"Jesus never authorized denominations.  And so, if Jesus never authorized denominations, then how could He have authorized denominational baptism?  It's not possible, is it?"



Seems to largely be a circular strawman argument built on a platform of presuppositions.  C'mon, dude, do you really think anyone believes that the baptism they practice has the authority of their denomination "rather than" the authority of the Bible?  Of course, other than the reference to Catholicism, it's all too vague to even know what he considers to be a "denomination" and what he doesn't.  I speculate that he probably would label any other group outside of his own exclusive affiliation to be a denomination where his group isn't.  Everything else he says follows from that presupposition.



"Jesus never authorized denominations.  And so, if Jesus never authorized denominations, then how could He have authorized denominational baptism?  It's not possible, is it?"

Well, duh, of course.  ::pondering::  ::shrug::
Talk about straw men .
Jesus also did not forbid like minded people worshiping together and even forming denominations to pool resources to gether to spread the gospel to help those in need with Gods FORGIVING  gospel message and TO HELP with humanitarian efforts.
IN CHRISTIAN LIBERTY I have the right to worship with like minded christians
are you familar with a christian's  freedom?
things that God has neither forbidden or commanded comes into that relm.

ex cathedra

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #15 on: Sat Mar 28, 2009 - 20:58:08 »
Baptism, rightly understood, is a response of a repentant believer. It really doesn't matter that one knows all the intricate doctrinal points concerning the practice, only that one intends to live his life for God.

NO WRONG


baptism rightly understood
is once again God doing for us .
washing away sins
saving or strengthining  through faith in Jesus
enabling us to live that new life in Christ.

look at the baptism verses them selves, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see what baptism claims has to be God at work.

who else could wash away our  sins or save us in baptism as the bible verse say it does.


 



« Last Edit: Sat Mar 28, 2009 - 21:10:02 by ex cathedra »

Offline DCR

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #16 on: Sat Mar 28, 2009 - 21:50:43 »
Ugh.

"Denominational baptism has the authority of that denomination rather than the authority of the Bible."

"There's no Biblical authority whatsoever for denominational baptism."

"Jesus never authorized denominations.  And so, if Jesus never authorized denominations, then how could He have authorized denominational baptism?  It's not possible, is it?"



Seems to largely be a circular strawman argument built on a platform of presuppositions.  C'mon, dude, do you really think anyone believes that the baptism they practice has the authority of their denomination "rather than" the authority of the Bible?  Of course, other than the reference to Catholicism, it's all too vague to even know what he considers to be a "denomination" and what he doesn't.  I speculate that he probably would label any other group outside of his own exclusive affiliation to be a denomination where his group isn't.  Everything else he says follows from that presupposition.



"Jesus never authorized denominations.  And so, if Jesus never authorized denominations, then how could He have authorized denominational baptism?  It's not possible, is it?"

Well, duh, of course.  ::pondering::  ::shrug::
Talk about straw men .
Jesus also did not forbid like minded people worshiping together and even forming denominations to pool resources to gether to spread the gospel to help those in need with Gods FORGIVING  gospel message and TO HELP with humanitarian efforts.
IN CHRISTIAN LIBERTY I have the right to worship with like minded christians
are you familar with a christian's  freedom?
things that God has neither forbidden or commanded comes into that relm.


Fairly old post your responding to there.  I had to read through it a couple of times to even figure out what I was talking about or what I was responding to.  ::smile::

Just to clarify something... the italicized statements in the post you quoted above are not my views or my statements.  Those statements are quotations from the video posted in the OP of this thread.  Actually, what I was responding to were those statements, as I actually had problems with those statements, which is actually what I was criticizing here.

I actually agree with what you say above.

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #17 on: Sat Mar 28, 2009 - 22:09:44 »
At the risk of being called a Budist I agree with HR on this one.

You wouldn't be called a "Budist" but you might be called a "stiffer".

What's a Budist, anyway?  Sounds like someone who believes in the supremacy of Budweiser over all other beers.

marc

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #18 on: Sat Mar 28, 2009 - 22:24:17 »
When I had my last kidney stone, I drank Bud, and it tasted good.  Does that make me a Budist?

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #19 on: Sat Mar 28, 2009 - 23:21:33 »
When I had my last kidney stone, I drank Bud, and it tasted good.  Does that make me a Budist?

If you believe it's the king of beers, then, yeah.  I had a couple of Smithwicks tonight in an Irish pub next door to where my wife and I ate Italian grub.  Smithwicks are ok, though, because of Bro. Raccoon John Smith, or something like that.

Offline Arkstfan

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #20 on: Sun Mar 29, 2009 - 08:44:59 »
When I had my last kidney stone, I drank Bud, and it tasted good.  Does that make me a Budist?

If you believe it's the king of beers, then, yeah.  I had a couple of Smithwicks tonight in an Irish pub next door to where my wife and I ate Italian grub.  Smithwicks are ok, though, because of Bro. Raccoon John Smith, or something like that.


If I confessed I prefer Michelob Amber would you still fellowship me?

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #21 on: Sun Mar 29, 2009 - 14:56:47 »
When I had my last kidney stone, I drank Bud, and it tasted good.  Does that make me a Budist?

If you believe it's the king of beers, then, yeah.  I had a couple of Smithwicks tonight in an Irish pub next door to where my wife and I ate Italian grub.  Smithwicks are ok, though, because of Bro. Raccoon John Smith, or something like that.


If I confessed I prefer Michelob Amber would you still fellowship me?

I doubt any of the others I fellowship would claim to be free of error, either.  While my beer selection is sound and yours and Marc's are clearly not, there may be other areas in my life where I have shortcomings to deal with, too.

HRoberson

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #22 on: Mon Mar 30, 2009 - 18:55:03 »
When I had my last kidney stone, I drank Bud, and it tasted good.  Does that make me a Budist?

If you believe it's the king of beers, then, yeah.  I had a couple of Smithwicks tonight in an Irish pub next door to where my wife and I ate Italian grub.  Smithwicks are ok, though, because of Bro. Raccoon John Smith, or something like that.


If I confessed I prefer Michelob Amber would you still fellowship me?

I doubt any of the others I fellowship would claim to be free of error, either.  While my beer selection is sound and yours and Marc's are clearly not, there may be other areas in my life where I have shortcomings to deal with, too.

Kumbaya, my Lord........

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #23 on: Tue Mar 31, 2009 - 07:52:32 »

Kumbaya, my Lord........

Well, the thread is about "denominational baptism", so how could one reasonably expect to leave beer selection out of the discussion?

marc

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #24 on: Wed Apr 01, 2009 - 10:44:40 »
Not to mention the whole baptism-in-kool-ade issue.

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #25 on: Thu Apr 02, 2009 - 11:56:58 »
Not to mention the whole baptism-in-kool-ade issue.

If someone wanted to get baptized at your congregation and when they went to the baptistry they found some prankster had dumped in lots of kool-ade, would they go ahead and baptize or drain and refill?  I don't know about ours. 

About 33 years ago I was driving through Biltmore and passed a bank where someone had tossed a huge amount of soap powder into a fountain.  A huge mountain of suds ran out into the street.

Offline zoonance

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #26 on: Thu Apr 02, 2009 - 12:05:15 »
Not to mention the whole baptism-in-kool-ade issue.

If someone wanted to get baptized at your congregation and when they went to the baptistry they found some prankster had dumped in lots of kool-ade, would they go ahead and baptize or drain and refill?  I don't know about ours. 

About 33 years ago I was driving through Biltmore and passed a bank where someone had tossed a huge amount of soap powder into a fountain.  A huge mountain of suds ran out into the street.


I suspect we would drain and refill.  Out of respect:  1) for the person being baptized 2) for the name the person will be baptized into  3) for the church family  4) for the person's family and perhaps 5) for respect of scripture as well.   No, there is not "thou shalt not use flavored water or thou shalt use running water for that matter.  But He knows the difference between giving Him our best and our desire to win an argument amongst ourselves or prove a point.

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #27 on: Sun Apr 05, 2009 - 13:18:11 »
Not to mention the whole baptism-in-kool-ade issue.

If someone wanted to get baptized at your congregation and when they went to the baptistry they found some prankster had dumped in lots of kool-ade, would they go ahead and baptize or drain and refill?  I don't know about ours. 

About 33 years ago I was driving through Biltmore and passed a bank where someone had tossed a huge amount of soap powder into a fountain.  A huge mountain of suds ran out into the street.


I suspect we would drain and refill.  Out of respect:  1) for the person being baptized 2) for the name the person will be baptized into  3) for the church family  4) for the person's family and perhaps 5) for respect of scripture as well.   No, there is not "thou shalt not use flavored water or thou shalt use running water for that matter.  But He knows the difference between giving Him our best and our desire to win an argument amongst ourselves or prove a point.


Lively:  What do you think about the following...


Heb 10:22  Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Offline lancelot

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #28 on: Sun Apr 05, 2009 - 15:50:14 »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RopHsJl6Ko

This seems to be a phrase made up just to inculcate confusion amongst less knowledgable Christians.

"Well your baptism is just a denominational baptism because it didn't have the proper authority, object, confession and technique. You need to be subject to the Lord's Church."




One needs to be subject to the Lord.

In order to do that, one must hear the gospel, believe it, and obey it.  The problem is that men are teaching all sorts of things that aren't true.  They are teaching, for example, that sprinkling or pouring is baptism.  They are teaching that men are saved before and without being baptized.

Let's suppose that someone teaches that a person believes and prays the sinner's prayer and is saved.  Whether he is baptized later for some reason (as a public confession of his faith) or sprinkled/poured or never immersed for any reason at all, does not matter to the one who teaches such a doctrine.

Can a doctrine that causes men to be lost (for sure those who are sprinkled/poured and those who were never immersed for any reason) save anyone? 

Lancelot

blituri

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #29 on: Mon Apr 06, 2009 - 18:05:16 »
Many "scholars" even use the term BELIEVER'S BAPTISM because they don't know the old wool over the eyes trick.

Believer's baptism is actually an ancient form of initiation into pagan mystery cults. For instance the pipers wanted Jesus to sing or lament and dance as they piped.. After the INITIATION where "prophecy" or music induce madness was the purifying or purging power (Apollo, Abaddon is called the WASHER), then you washed away the results of inition. Jesus refused it and got killed.

That is used to say that one is SAVED either by predestination or by FAITH ONLY.  After they are saved BY FAITH only, then they go through a long period of study to make them worthy of full membership in the church: withoug baptism the Baptist system (is or was) that you did not observe communion or participate in any "liturgical" work UNTIL you were voted on and THEN you were worthy of being baptized.

I questioned a local Baptist lady and she says that it is not as obvert but that is still the agenda.

On the other hand, the prophecy of Isaiah which the eunuch understood, and the Arche or founding act of the Gospel by Mark quoting Malachi is that if you BELIEVE then you have the ability to be saved but you are NOT saved. The commands, bible examples and historical practice was that repentance followed by baptism FOR (in order) the remission of sins and only then would you have the gift of A (personal) holy spirit.

They get by with saying that they are baptized BECAUSE their sins have been remitted and they are saved. However, the word EIS is never in any sense used to mean BECAUSE OF but into, unto or FOR THE PURPOSE of entering something.

Catholics and Calvinists SPRINKLE as "baptismal regeneration" but the Church of Christ is the only group whose baptism is is FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS.  Or "arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."  Or Baptism SAVED because it is OUR request for A good conscience which is the same as A holy spirit (1 Peter 3:21).

Everyone but the church of Christ makes a major industry out of telling Jesus, the Apostles, the prophets and the historic understanding all liars.

Baptism is not a punched ticket on the joy buss to heaven but to BECOME a disciple or student of Christ. The people understood that from proselyte baptism or commercial (apprentice or disciplship) baptism. No one let you grasp the mysteries until after baptism: so says Paul in 2 Cor 3.







Offline Lee Freeman

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #30 on: Fri Apr 10, 2009 - 09:44:58 »
Baptism, rightly understood, is a response of a repentant believer. It really doesn't matter that one knows all the intricate doctrinal points concerning the practice, only that one intends to live his life for God.

This was the majority position in the Stone-Campbell Movement until the about the 1960s.

In the 1830s, when Dr. John Thgomas began teaching that Baptist baptisms, or any baptism done without the express knowledge of the remission of sins were invalid, Campbell staunchly oppsed Thomas' views. Campbell himself, along with all the adult members of his family, had been baptized by Baptist Elder Matthias Luce without the remission of sins even being mentioned. None of them were ever rebaptized-even after Campbell dioscovered and debated the idea of remission of sins. And in his response to Broaddus, Campbell unequivocally states that there is only one baptism, that one cannot be baptized, then re-baptized for the remission of sins. One  cannot be born into the same kingdom twice. If one was baptized based upon a sincere profesion of faith in Christ, one's immersion was valid. And when push came to shove, he was not willing to say that all unbaptized believers were lost. He held out the possibility that persons mistaking the outward baptism might still possess the inward baptism.

As for "obeying the gospel," this is done when we believe it. Baptism is our faith-response to the gospel but is itself no more a part of the gospel than eating is food.

Pax.
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 10, 2009 - 09:54:56 by Lee Freeman »

HRoberson

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #31 on: Fri Apr 10, 2009 - 17:03:40 »
Baptism, rightly understood, is a response of a repentant believer. It really doesn't matter that one knows all the intricate doctrinal points concerning the practice, only that one intends to live his life for God.

This was the majority position in the Stone-Campbell Movement until the about the 1960s.

They must have been smart people.

Quote
And when push came to shove, he was not willing to say that all unbaptized believers were lost.

Neither am I. Although, I'm probably a bit more progressive than he was.

Quote
He held out the possibility that persons mistaking the outward baptism might still possess the inward baptism.

Which is why I don't worry too much about 80-year-old Catholic ladies.

Quote
As for "obeying the gospel," this is done when we believe it. Baptism is our faith-response to the gospel but is itself no more a part of the gospel than eating is food.

Yeah; I just wrap them all into one ball, and don't spend a lot of time teasing them apart.
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 10, 2009 - 17:17:03 by HRoberson »

Offline Mere Nick

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #32 on: Thu May 07, 2009 - 07:04:02 »
I grew up in a small Methodist congregation.  One of the things that was often said together was the Nicene Creed.  One of the lines from that creed is "I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins".  I also personally know of at least one congregation that baptizes by immersion because I've seen the pictures of it in the newspaper.

Does anyone remember those pictures that boringoldguy put in here a good while back showing regular baptistries for immersion being installed in some Roman Catholic church buildings?

Offline Jimbob

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #33 on: Thu May 07, 2009 - 07:13:02 »

Offline Arkstfan

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Re: "denominational baptism"
« Reply #34 on: Thu May 07, 2009 - 07:28:58 »
Our friend's son was baptized by immersion as part of his confirmation at the local Catholic church. Apparently it is a bit of a mini-trend that isn't encouraged by the local bishop but so far has been tolerated.